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Radbot posted:What justifies levying a special tax on marijuana and not alcohol? Because they can. And alcohol is already pretty heavily taxed.
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May 9, 2013 16:30
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veedubfreak posted:Because they can. It's not really comparable, seeing as how alcohol doesn't have a special sales tax in any state I'm aware of, and considering that nothing is stopping states from levying additional taxes on producers even if this sales tax passes. Also, if "they could" they wouldn't be putting the issue to a vote, which again raises the question, what's the rationale behind asking for the extra tax?
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May 9, 2013 16:32
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Radbot posted:It's not really comparable, seeing as how alcohol doesn't have a special sales tax in any state I'm aware of, and considering that nothing is stopping states from levying additional taxes on producers even if this sales tax passes. Maryland has a 9% alcohol tax. http://marylandreporter.com/2012/11/15/alcohol-industry-blames-flat-sales-in-md-on-9-tax/
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May 9, 2013 16:35
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Parlett316 posted:Maryland has a 9% alcohol tax. Ah, wasn't aware of that. Still, most states don't, and 9% is still less than 15%.
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May 9, 2013 16:36
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Parlett316 posted:Maryland has a 9% alcohol tax. http://tax.illinois.gov/Publications/Sales/SalesTaxRates/FixedRatesExcise.htm $0.231 per gallon for beer or cider with an alcohol content of 0.5 percent to 7 percent $1.39 per gallon for alcoholic liquor other than beer with an alcohol content of 14 percent or less $1.39 per gallon for alcoholic liquor with an alcohol content of more than 14 percent and less than 20 percent $8.55 per gallon for alcoholic liquor with an alcohol content of 20 percent or more
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May 9, 2013 16:38
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Radbot posted:It's not really comparable, seeing as how alcohol doesn't have a special sales tax in any state I'm aware of, and considering that nothing is stopping states from levying additional taxes on producers even if this sales tax passes. http://taxfoundation.org/article/state-sales-gasoline-cigarette-and-alcohol-tax-rates-state-2000-2010 Every state has taxes on alcohol, usually split up into spirits, wine, and beer. They even have them in states where the liquor stores are state-owned, like Pennsylvania.
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May 9, 2013 16:38
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gvibes posted:Illinois has a special liquor tax as well: Are those sales taxes, though? Those seem like taxes that would be rolled into the price of the item, considering they're based on volume and not sales price. And again, judging by the average price of alcohol, those are still lower tax rates than Colorado is proposing.
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May 9, 2013 16:53
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Radbot posted:What justifies levying a special tax on marijuana and not alcohol? Because, among other things, governmental acceptance of Marijuana is still on very shaky ground, showing other states that this is a veritable mine of government income will grease the legalization gears quite a bit. Also could you say why you are opposed to higher taxation of weed? From a pure numbers point of view it makes sense to have higher tax on Marijuana since people buy small amounts of it, at least relative to alcohol, so to get a roughly equivalent amount of tax money back as to alcohol the rate needs to be higher.
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May 9, 2013 17:01
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Radbot posted:What justifies levying a special tax on marijuana and not alcohol? Special Alcohol taxation has been around since the revolution. And on top of federal taxation most states have additional tax on alcohol one or another.
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May 9, 2013 17:06
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Radbot posted:Are those sales taxes, though? Those seem like taxes that would be rolled into the price of the item, considering they're based on volume and not sales price. And again, judging by the average price of alcohol, those are still lower tax rates than Colorado is proposing. Washington, which just allowed liquor to be sold in non state run stores, has a huge sales tax (in addition to the volume taxes) on alcohol. It actually looks a fair bit like what Colorado is proposing. Edit: the tax on liquor, not counting the bottle fee, is literally 20%. What Colorado is proposing isn't really unheard of if we set aside it being about weed. Red_Mage fucked around with this message at 17:14 on May 9, 2013 |
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May 9, 2013 17:11
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veedubfreak posted:Because they can. Also, the government has to tax something to function. Luxury items like marijuana are a reasonably fair target for that.
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May 9, 2013 17:14
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Radbot posted:Are those sales taxes, though? Those seem like taxes that would be rolled into the price of the item, considering they're based on volume and not sales price. And again, judging by the average price of alcohol, those are still lower tax rates than Colorado is proposing. quote:What taxes apply to spirits?
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May 9, 2013 17:16
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Radbot posted:Ah, wasn't aware of that. Still, most states don't, and 9% is still less than 15%. I'd imagine the only reason they don't is because people would completely lose their poo poo if they couldn't buy a fifth of Baileys for 15 bucks in the states. Besides, a major talking point behind legalization is "let's legalize it and tax the hell out of it to pay for other stuff". This is exactly what they are trying to do. Radbot posted:Are those sales taxes, though? Those seem like taxes that would be rolled into the price of the item, considering they're based on volume and not sales price. And again, judging by the average price of alcohol, those are still lower tax rates than Colorado is proposing. Is there any significant difference between taxes that are calculated and included in the price tag of an item on a shelf and taxes that are calculated at the point of sale?
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May 9, 2013 17:19
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Tim Selaty Jr posted:Is there any significant difference between taxes that are calculated and included in the price tag of an item on a shelf and taxes that are calculated at the point of sale? Personally I think all retail outfits should have to advertise post-tax prices for all things, I don't think you should ever pay more than the sticker says.
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May 9, 2013 17:56
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Jeffrey posted:Personally I think all retail outfits should have to advertise post-tax prices for all things, I don't think you should ever pay more than the sticker says. The problem with that is that sales taxes on general merchandise can easily vary even within the same town depending on what state you're in. And there's usually laws that say it's not ok to advertise that Brand Widgets are $15 in a published ad, only to have every store in the marketing region with it on the shelf for prices from $15 to $16.35 depending on whether the place there in has sales tax at all, and if they do what the amount is. In contrast, things like gasoline prices and cigarette prices are never listed without tax calculated in, but it's either simply not done or illegal to advertise the specific prices of those anywhere besides the place selling them.
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May 9, 2013 18:57
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Also, the government has to tax something to function. Luxury items like marijuana are a reasonably fair target for that. It doesn't seem like the smartest idea to tax an item that has an extremely established underground production and distribution network into the ground. As dispensaries in Colorado have shown, there is a price floor to cannabis, one that's not likely to get much lower as it's already essentially legal here. Why wouldn't I just continue to purchase from a dispensary or from a friend?
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May 9, 2013 19:38
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Radbot posted:It doesn't seem like the smartest idea to tax an item that has an extremely established underground production and distribution network into the ground. Worked for Alcohol after Prohibition.
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May 9, 2013 19:39
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Radbot posted:It doesn't seem like the smartest idea to tax an item that has an extremely established underground production and distribution network into the ground. As dispensaries in Colorado have shown, there is a price floor to cannabis, one that's not likely to get much lower as it's already essentially legal here. Why wouldn't I just continue to purchase from a dispensary or from a friend? Because people would rather pay the tax and be able to pick it up from an actual legal business instead of committing a felony?
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May 9, 2013 19:54
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SWITCH HITLER posted:Because people would rather pay the tax and be able to pick it up from an actual legal business instead of committing a felony? Well, maybe. I totally believe that people would rather buy from legit sources than from sketchy dealers all things being equal, but if your sketchy dealer can sell you the same stuff for a fraction of the price of the legal stuff you might think twice about it. Plus, as pointed out, the illegal distribution network for weed already exists and for the vast majority of people (especially in CO) it barely seemed like a crime.
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May 9, 2013 19:58
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Radbot posted:It doesn't seem like the smartest idea to tax an item that has an extremely established underground production and distribution network into the ground. As dispensaries in Colorado have shown, there is a price floor to cannabis, one that's not likely to get much lower as it's already essentially legal here. Why wouldn't I just continue to purchase from a dispensary or from a friend? Well for some it means that money wouldn't go to a cartel or gang, for some it means that they can buy without fear of being jailed. Theres always going to be people who go out and buy cigarettes or bootleg alcohol from some guy's mobile home or car trunk, but the vast, vast majority will prefer the convenience and guarantees that buying from a registered shop would provide. There's also a large chance that it will get cheaper once more people get in on it. Cannabis is incredibly easy to cultivate and when it becomes a legal full time job it'll be even easier. as a legal industry it's just beginning and we'll just have to wait and see.
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May 9, 2013 20:19
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Radbot posted:What justifies levying a special tax on marijuana and not alcohol? Doing something right with cannabis that they haven't with alcohol?
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May 9, 2013 20:26
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Rigged Death Trap posted:There's also a large chance that it will get cheaper once more people get in on it. Cannabis is incredibly easy to cultivate and when it becomes a legal full time job it'll be even easier. as a legal industry it's just beginning and we'll just have to wait and see.
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May 9, 2013 20:32
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Kurt_Cobain posted:When banks are able to finance large scale grow operations the price to produce marijuana will begin to fall dramatically. You know it's going to be weird when big companies step in on this.
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May 9, 2013 20:37
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Muck and Mire posted:Well, maybe. It's not even about legitamacy. The current synthetic cannabis scene shows that people are generally content with ease of attainment, and if the shop down the road sells it, well why the gently caress would you bother with a drug dealer?
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May 9, 2013 20:57
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echinopsis posted:It's not even about legitamacy. The current synthetic cannabis scene shows that people are generally content with ease of attainment, and if the shop down the road sells it, well why the gently caress would you bother with a drug dealer? Same reason convenience stores & gas stations sell cigarettes and booze at a higher price than if you went to a liquor store/grocery store and bought them. If it's a walk around the block, I'm much more likely to just go grab it there, spend a buck or two extra, and get done faster than I would drive halfway across town to save a $1. Will everyone have this attitude? No. Will enough have it that it has a sizable dent on the black market? Absolutely.
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May 10, 2013 01:56
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As someone who has never used Marijuana and is interested in trying some when it is legal to buy in November/December/Whenever the state stops dragging its feet, I would much rather pay a few extra bucks for legal weed. I don't know anyone who smokes(or more likely, I don't know anyone who will tell me they smoke), so I wouldn't be sure who to buy from. I am WAY to lazy to try and find someone who I can trust to buy it from, considering I couldn't tell the difference between MJ and basil. I am the middle-aged boring white guy, and the state is going to make a LOT of money off my demographic. And I'm okay with that. 
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May 10, 2013 02:21
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Pretty much. The worst part about smoking weed for me was dealing with some shithead with frosted tips who drove a riced up Civic and treated selling a dimebag like loving Oceans 11
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May 10, 2013 02:32
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Radbot posted:As dispensaries in Colorado have shown, there is a price floor to cannabis, one that's not likely to get much lower as it's already essentially legal here. "Essentially legal" and "legal" are two enormously different things, though. There is a reason that the medical mj industry and underground pot growers fought against legalization efforts in California. They know it will lead to a price drop. The quasi-legal status is what is maintaining that price floor.
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May 10, 2013 02:36
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SWITCH HITLER posted:Because people would rather pay the tax and be able to pick it up from an actual legal business instead of committing a felony? Erm, it's not a felony to buy marijuana. And it's not a felony to purchase cannabis from a medical dispensary, which wouldn't be subject to this tax. 800peepee51doodoo posted:"Essentially legal" and "legal" are two enormously different things, though. There is a reason that the medical mj industry and underground pot growers fought against legalization efforts in California. They know it will lead to a price drop. The quasi-legal status is what is maintaining that price floor. I don't think so, though. It's not the price drop they're worried about - good cannabis takes a lot of energy and resources to grow. It's the fact that there'd be more outlets for purchase. Rigged Death Trap posted:Well for some it means that money wouldn't go to a cartel or gang, for some it means that they can buy without fear of being jailed. I guess this might be true in some other countries/states, but the idea that buying cannabis funds cartels in Colorado is, frankly, ridiculous.
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May 10, 2013 05:06
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Radbot posted:Erm, it's not a felony to buy marijuana. And it's not a felony to purchase cannabis from a medical dispensary, which wouldn't be subject to this tax. It sure is, if it's your third strike! Just because it's a federal law that's rarely enforced doesn't mean it's magically not a felony.
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May 10, 2013 05:46
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Me? I'm in favor of a clean, regulated economy. Except when it comes to weed because argh blargh gently caress the man.
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May 10, 2013 06:05
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wilfredmerriweathr posted:It sure is, if it's your third strike! Just because it's a federal law that's rarely enforced doesn't mean it's magically not a felony. Its a ticket or at worst a misdemeanor in CA.
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May 10, 2013 06:10
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Right, and same where I live. But don't ever, even for a second, lose sight of the fact that it is in fact a schedule I substance, federally speaking and if you had the misfortune of being in the wrong place at the wrong time you could indeed become a felon over a bag of weed.
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May 10, 2013 06:19
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Radbot posted:I don't think so, though. It's not the price drop they're worried about - good cannabis takes a lot of energy and resources to grow. It's the fact that there'd be more outlets for purchase. It certainly is the price drop they're worried about. There were stickers and signs all around certain Northern Cali towns saying "Save our Economy, NO on 19!". Growing pot is just like growing any other cash crop, there is nothing so special and energy intensive about it that it should cost $150/oz. This poo poo isn't saffron or vanilla, its a weed that produces a substantial amount of fruit and can be grown pretty much anywhere. That cost reflects the risks that still exist in production from law enforcement and thieves, as well as other business related issues such as not having access to banks, loans or traditional distribution. Legalization would remove those issues.
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May 10, 2013 15:08
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wilfredmerriweathr posted:It sure is, if it's your third strike! Just because it's a federal law that's rarely enforced doesn't mean it's magically not a felony. There is essentially zero chance of being arrested on felony possession. It's literally a ticketable offense in California and was in Colorado and Washington until recently. The only way it would be a felony is if you spit in a passing DEA officer's face and had some weed on you. 800peepee51doodoo posted:It certainly is the price drop they're worried about. There were stickers and signs all around certain Northern Cali towns saying "Save our Economy, NO on 19!". Growing pot is just like growing any other cash crop, there is nothing so special and energy intensive about it that it should cost $150/oz. This poo poo isn't saffron or vanilla, its a weed that produces a substantial amount of fruit and can be grown pretty much anywhere. That cost reflects the risks that still exist in production from law enforcement and thieves, as well as other business related issues such as not having access to banks, loans or traditional distribution. Legalization would remove those issues. You obviously don't know anything about cannabis production. Good cannabis is grown indoors under artificial lighting using hydroponic or partially hydroponic methods, using relatively exotic fertilizer mixes, often in an atmosphere enriched with CO2. That's not even touching other important characteristics that reduce yield, like plant sexing, curing, mold, etc. Treat it like a weed and it will give you product that looks, smells, and feels like it came from a weed. You're right that access to capital is an issue, but let me remind you that there are huge commercial grows all over Colorado and in even in downtown Denver, grown under tightly controlled caregiver regulations established by the state. Every plant is barcoded and digitally linked to a patient that has assigned their caregiver rights to that grow/dispensary. Money to establish these grows is expensive (as any gray market lending will be) but it certainly exists.
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May 10, 2013 15:31
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Radbot posted:Ah, wasn't aware of that. Still, most states don't, and 9% is still less than 15%. Washington has a really high alcohol sales tax. When they first started selling liquor in stores this past year a lot of people had sticker shock because the state stores had the tax listed on their prices, but the stores just list the sales price and ring up the tax at the register. According to this website: http://liq.wa.gov/stores/liquor-pricing the tax on liquor is 20.5%
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May 10, 2013 16:22
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Radbot posted:Erm, it's not a felony to buy marijuana. And it's not a felony to purchase cannabis from a medical dispensary, which wouldn't be subject to this tax. Dodging taxes starts as a misdemeanor and becomes a felony if you rack up enough. I'm not sure where the particular limits are in Colorado, but at the minimum if you're caught doing it you can be made to pay the taxes that were due.
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May 10, 2013 19:03
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Radbot posted:There is essentially zero chance of being arrested on felony possession. It's literally a ticketable offense in California and was in Colorado and Washington until recently. The only way it would be a felony is if you spit in a passing DEA officer's face and had some weed on you. Until the feds perform a crackdown, or the feds are investigating your buyers for other activity and decide to throw some years in your face because they swear you know something. And it's not like that underground market is only about weed, many people are fine paying some taxes if it means they don't have to consort with the black market as a whole. And really who gives a poo poo? There are high sales taxes on all sorts of 'sinful' items. Most people do not care because it's accessible without having to be involved in any thing criminal. Most are smart enough to realize that compared to the rest of the nation they are really loving lucky.
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May 10, 2013 19:19
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Radbot posted:You obviously don't know anything about cannabis production. Good cannabis is grown indoors under artificial lighting using hydroponic or partially hydroponic methods, using relatively exotic fertilizer mixes, often in an atmosphere enriched with CO2. That's not even touching other important characteristics that reduce yield, like plant sexing, curing, mold, etc. Treat it like a weed and it will give you product that looks, smells, and feels like it came from a weed. You must be joking. That's regular fare for any commercial greenhouse.
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May 10, 2013 19:30
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Another wrinkle in legalizing pot in Washington State - how to get it to Point Roberts, WA. If you're unfamiliar with Point Roberts, it's a tiny exclave that hangs just south of British Columbia. It's part of Whatcom County, but in order to get there, you either have to fly, boat or cross via Canada, thus going through two border crossings. Transporting pot across air or water is illegal under Federal law. Transporting pot internationally is also illegal, both in the USA and Canada. Yet, Point Roberts, WA citizens are legally allowed access to it. WA State is trying to find out what can be done. Plus, there's only 1,300 people who live there, so some business owners are even questioning the realities of hosting a local grow op for it. Here's an article with more details: http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2020875640_pointrobertsxml.html Qu Appelle fucked around with this message at 20:15 on May 10, 2013 |
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May 10, 2013 20:13
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