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Chainclaw posted:The problem is you're making the decision of what college and what degree when you're really still a kid. I know when I was looking the numbers were so large at every school that they felt meaningless to me. Loans felt like a magical source of money, and I never had to run a budget, all my money I earned at part time jobs in high school was just fun money. I had no clue what $500 a month of loan payments actually meant, I had never had to pay rent, phone bills, cable bills, car insurance, and all those other things that add up. Luckily I went for engineering, which tends to pay a bit more than other disciplines in the games industry. A Bloody Crowbar fucked around with this message at 17:15 on May 10, 2013 |
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May 10, 2013 17:08
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Chainclaw posted:edit: I was curious, and I looked up Digipen's current tuition. $13,200 a semester. If someone's getting loans for everything, that's over $100,000 just for tuition for 8 semesters, not even including living expense loans. Good grief, when I was going there it was $15K per year, and that included meals and books and everything. 
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May 10, 2013 17:15
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Maybe that is a per-year cost and not per-semester cost. The wording wasn't super clear to me on that page.
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May 10, 2013 17:20
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TO be fair, that was 2000-2001 when I went there.
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May 10, 2013 17:25
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Art school can be up to $40k+ a year. This is the main reason why I chose to attend a state college that offered me a full scholarship, rather than Ringling, which had offered me nothing. (http://www.ringling.edu/fileadmin/content/admissions/pdf/Tuition_Fees.pdf - this is just absurd, $18k for JUST tuition, plus fees, plus TECH fees, and that doesn't include room and board) My dad lost his job my senior (junior?) year of high school, and my mom became the breadwinner; and this wasn't reflected for the year I was applying for financial aid. Wasn't eligible for need-based scholarships as a result (merit based only). So the choice was a full ride to a state school, or $160-200k+ for an arts education. My parents were basically like "well, you're going to be on your own if you choose to go to art school, because we clearly can't afford something that we see as a huge risk. If you go to a University, you're at least exposed to other disciplines in case you decide not to be an artist." I resented them for it initially, but as I've matured, I realize graduating from school debt-free was the smartest decision I could've made. I landed in a good place despite not having an expensive degree behind me, and that's all I could wish for in the end. Doesn't matter how you get here, just that you arrive; and if you can do it without a trail of ridiculous debt behind you, great!
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May 10, 2013 17:38
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What the hell, the Masters degree I'm considering at Brunel is £6k for the whole year's course. Happy to not feel so old, 29 having bounced around QA and build tech for 5 years or so. As I say, lookibg at a Masters and my own stuff to move into more creative areas.
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May 10, 2013 17:47
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In short don't' go to a loving art or "game design" school. I'm just lucky I only ended up with a 26k loan. I feel sorry for some of my friends who are in cal arts. I don't think I could live with a 140k debt hanging over my head. Literally. 
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May 10, 2013 17:54
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Jumping on this train! 30, a hair under 4 years in AAA, 3 years running now on the first-party services side. So while I'm no longer doing active game development work, any of you who have ever published a title in the past 3 years on a first-party platform have probably interacted with something I've worked on.
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May 10, 2013 17:54
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Shindragon posted:In short don't' go to a loving art or "game design" school. I'm just lucky I only ended up with a 26k loan. I feel sorry for some of my friends who are in cal arts. I don't think I could live with a 140k debt hanging over my head. Literally. gently caress that. I went to a private 4-year (transferred in with community college credits) and got a BFA in Animation and a double major in Russian and took a bunch of awesome classes like writing and biology and Russian film and poo poo and I came out with $5k in student loans thanks to parents, pell grants, and a decently priced/privately-subsidized university. Disney has a decent education reimbursement policy, anyone know if such thing as a "quality, online masters in art program" exists?
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May 10, 2013 18:00
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Shindragon posted:In short don't' go to a loving art or "game design" school. I'm just lucky I only ended up with a 26k loan. I feel sorry for some of my friends who are in cal arts. I don't think I could live with a 140k debt hanging over my head. Literally. Meh... I don't regret going to art school: I learned way more than I would have by myself, I met a lot of awesome people and it was a great experience on it's own. I was also able to find jobs afterwards.
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May 10, 2013 18:24
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Unless things changed recently, University is completely free in Scotland for Scottish students iirc. Used to be the same in England too before it decided to copy america in every concievable way. I got through my uni education only paying £1k a year and £1.5k for my masters.
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May 10, 2013 18:30
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Shindragon posted:I don't think I could live with a 140k debt hanging over my head. Literally. If I was just graduating right now, I'd totally avoid the bigass super art schools due to the costs at this point. Especially with how prolific online schools and art forum communities are. If you're art based, why not just move to LA and take a few classes at Gnomon? Maybe go through community college or state school with a liberal arts background and then take a class or two to learn 3d? Or heck just join a 3d forum. Actually learning Maya/Max or whatever is easy but actually doing something with it is rough. Why not just do the 11 second club for animation for free every month? Best way to learn to animate as it forces you to actually create and finish something every month. I'd still recommend some sort of college just for the creative communities they form as opposed to just working in your undies for 4 years straight. With all that bullshit said, Sheridan college was still an amazing experience even though it was pricey as gently caress. Aliginge posted:Unless things changed recently, University is completely free in Scotland for Scottish students iirc. Yeah whatever buddy we still got our FREEDOMS(loaded with debt) Buckwheat Sings fucked around with this message at 18:35 on May 10, 2013 |
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May 10, 2013 18:31
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mutata posted:gently caress that. I went to a private 4-year (transferred in with community college credits) and got a BFA in Animation and a double major in Russian and took a bunch of awesome classes like writing and biology and Russian film and poo poo and I came out with $5k in student loans thanks to parents, pell grants, and a decently priced/privately-subsidized university. Well not everyone can have the same luck as you. Don't get me wrong, it's awesome. But when you are like me and are more of the low middle class. Grants didn't do much and well parents couldn't do much either. It's pretty drat cruel world sometimes to get what you want. My only regret is not finishing community college. I don't even want to think how much I wasted there. Oh well at least I got my fundamentals.
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May 10, 2013 18:37
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I'm 26/M/Dundee, in the industry 5 years, made redundant 2.5 times and have now started my own company. And yes, University in Scotland is completely free for Scottish students. Which is nice.
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May 10, 2013 18:45
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Shindragon posted:Well not everyone can have the same luck as you. Don't get me wrong, it's awesome. But when you are like me and are more of the low middle class. Grants didn't do much and well parents couldn't do much either. Oh no no, I came across completely wrong. I wasn't saying "Durr, look how easy it is, just do what I did!" because I 100% acknowledge that my circumstances were complete luck of the draw on my part. I was very lucky and I consider myself such.
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May 10, 2013 18:53
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I guess if I had any advice to give prospective game developers, it's that your education is mostly what you make of it. There's unlimited amounts of money and resources you can throw at your education, but you can easily squander that in several ways. An expensive degree doesn't mean poo poo if you aren't going to work for it; I don't want to make people feel bad for going to prestigious schools-- they can be exceptionally helpful and motivating if you're willing to make the most of it. A cheap state school might not have 100% of the same resources, but students these days have access to online communities/forums/etc that really accelerate the learning process... to the extent that I think if a person is determined and self-motivated enough to reach out online, they can succeed professionally without going through the rigors of higher education. Your career is what you make of it; don't expect any gimmes based on your degree. That being said, I'm glad I went to school as I don't think I would've succeeded without at least a little bit of direction; and I got a lot of good life experience and exposure to a broad spectrum of people across different disciplines (after growing up fairly sheltered, and an only child from an immigrant family) that has helped me in a team-based environment. I'd be really stunted socially had I not gone through undegrad.
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May 10, 2013 18:54
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mutata posted:Oh no no, I came across completely wrong. I wasn't saying "Durr, look how easy it is, just do what I did!" because I 100% acknowledge that my circumstances were complete luck of the draw on my part. I was very lucky and I consider myself such. Ah no worries man. To be honest though, mines is more of a basically risk that poo poo if you think you can pull it off. Granted I"m not entirely like oh man stupidest decision. At least art school gave me a good foundation on animation and 3D modeling. That is much I"m thankful for. Now all I need to do is learn to finish a game. I haven't finished my project for 3 years now.
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May 10, 2013 18:56
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I am 23, and after spending 2 years of  trying to find a job after getting out of my ~game school~ I got pulled into IBM for now. But now that I have settled down I need to get back onto making something in my spare time for my portfolio, but to be honest I don't know where I should get started again! I am a programmer, and I liked working in the Unity Engine, but most of the jobs I was seeing a year back were C++, and while I know how to use C++, I never used it that much at the school I went to (it didn't focus on programming as much, but I did get to see how the rest of everything works, so I still think that was A Good Thing) so I wound up tripping on simple things in the interviews like data structures.Now that I am out here on my own I wanna do some sort of little side project to help get back into the swing of things (I will just reiterate Shalinor's point that the Grass here is straight-up beige) but the thought of starting from scratch in C++ just makes my head spin. I suppose I should ask what would be a good starting point for me, but that's more of a question geared for the Making Games Megathread  Huh. That post started out as what was supposed to be a "I am x years old and working here for Y years" type post like the rest of you guys were doing, but I think it kinda changed tone somewhere in there 
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May 10, 2013 20:01
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^^^ Doesn't SA have game making contests once in a while? You can participate in one of those if you need a project.Chainclaw posted:It's the art degrees that feel obscenely overpriced. Every time I talk to a student in the art program at Digipen, all I can think is they'll be paying that degree off for over 20 years. On the other hand, Digipen does give people a lot of opportunities they wouldn't otherwise have, and people who actually put forth the effort are able to use the degree to land a job in the games industry from it. So even when people land so deep in debt after it, at least they've got a job doing something fun and exciting. Arguably, someone who puts forth the effort can land a games industry job without a Digipen degree as well. Really, my biology degree is completely irrelevant to my current job, and now it's nothing more than an albatross that sucks money out of my bank account every month. The advantages I can see people getting with a games trade degree are 1) working on a game in a team together 2) networking opportunities. These are not insignificant advantages, to be fair. emoticon fucked around with this message at 20:37 on May 10, 2013 |
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May 10, 2013 20:34
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I'm 29 and I've been in and out for about 2 years. I couldn't say that most of it was "real" industry experience since I've been screwed over so many times by people that just wanted to use me as a stepping stone to get their start-ups underway. So, I'm still trying to land a solid job in the industry, but I've lost that sense of trust and good will I had when I first took off on my own. I just want my foot in the door and stop with the internships where, despite them saying awesome things about you, don't help you at all... Also, learned the hard way that the Game Design school I graduated from really does not help you if you leave the state they operate from. I did not realize that there would be no help from them at all out of state. Any other artists here been screwed over like this? Also, quick question, is it weird to be an artist that doesn't like making anything for themselves? I love working in teams and building off of other folks' ideas to make something awesome. I don't have that urge to just sit down and create like others do... I just want to make games that make people happy. 
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May 10, 2013 20:50
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I would suggest that the ability to reliably work on personal projects is a learned skill that takes work for most people. It also helps you avoid some of the feelings you've experienced as you prefer working on teams, but you've also seen first hand how working on a team means at best you lose the ability to make some decisions or at worst you get totally steamrolled and have no control whatsoever. As an artist, I feel that I need to have the freedom to make artistic decisions for myself, execute on them, then see the result and learn from it in order to stay competitive in the industry, and I can only do this at work insofar as that meshes with my supervisor's willingness to allow me that freedom. Often times, the need of the project as a whole means that I don't get the luxury of making my own decisions and I need to execute on someone else's decisions. Basically what I'm saying is, as far as I'm concerned, my future skill level and value to a company depends just as much if not more on what I do on my own time and what I can learn from it than my experience at work. Work experience teaches me how to work on a team to get a project done, but my personal work helps make me a better individual member of any team.
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May 10, 2013 20:58
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46. First games work was 1992-1993 at Time Warner Interactive Group. QA. Didn't come back to it until I started managing mobile development projects: 2008-2011. Currently managing technical projects at Machinima. I feel very, very old. In a good way.
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May 10, 2013 21:39
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mutata posted:I would suggest that the ability to reliably work on personal projects is a learned skill that takes work for most people. It also helps you avoid some of the feelings you've experienced as you prefer working on teams, but you've also seen first hand how working on a team means at best you lose the ability to make some decisions or at worst you get totally steamrolled and have no control whatsoever. That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for that input. I mean, I've up and made artwork on my own obviously and I'm constantly learning about different techniques and new software on my own... I've just been spread out so much due to what different people have demanded of me in various jobs. I started out focusing on 3D, then I had to dabble into website design, and now I'm almost purely working in Illustrator. I just want the focus that comes with a solid career start. It is funny, but when I'm really working I draw more and I'm more creative. It is like I thrive on that confidence of actually being needed that spurs me into creating on my own.
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May 10, 2013 21:46
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Sarcasmatron posted:46. First games work was 1992-1993 at Time Warner Interactive Group. QA. Whoa awesome! Any cool stories? I'm 31. About 8+ years experience as an animator. Currently a Senior Lead Animator. Started out kind of shaky as a freelancer for a few years then finally got into film. Got laid off after about a year then worked in Canada. Got laid off again so just went gently caress it and settled in LA at a sweet place that basically does what I'm into. Which is basically Games/Film. Haven't regretting it since. Also started to get back into drawing/painting again which is good.
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May 10, 2013 22:45
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Well, I guess since everyone else is doing it I might as well too. 30 years old, coming up on 7 years in the industry. Started as CS for an MMO company, all AAA since then, and now going to be a Production Manager at a startup in 8 days time. I tried to get out of the industry after my last layoff but ultimately glad I stayed. Can you imagine going to work and not discussing guns, or ships, or stats, or having to wear business casual EVERY day?! Yelch.
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May 10, 2013 23:05
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busydelicious posted:Also, quick question, is it weird to be an artist that doesn't like making anything for themselves? I love working in teams and building off of other folks' ideas to make something awesome. I don't have that urge to just sit down and create like others do... Actually yes. I love working as a part of a team but when I get home I prefer to just focus on enjoying my life. That said I do want to use this time I have in what appears to be a relatively stable job, what with being Minecraft and all, to get myself enlisted onto some kind of life drawing class or focus on becoming a better traditional artist. I enjoyed my tuesday evening classes back at Warwick college even though being life drawing, it's hard-going as gently caress. Then again I am also dedicating myself to gym work with a means to getting my type 1 diabetes under control with the urgency of potential kidney ruination that your average healthy person probably doesn't have, so yeah, I try to make the most of my free time, personal projects don't really get a look in between life and exhaustion as well. Maybe I just need to pick up drawing for fun again, rather than study. GeeCee fucked around with this message at 23:32 on May 10, 2013 |
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May 10, 2013 23:30
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Everybody that's posted "I can't find a job" that didn't link their portfolio - that you didn't have the confidence to share it, when you know that's the question we're going to ask you, might be part of why you're having difficulty finding a job. Both good work + no confidence and bad work that you know is bad would hamstring you.
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May 10, 2013 23:48
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Buckwheat I'm really curious where you work and I think I might know maybe... I just did 2 art tests but the companies aren't in LA, but I'm hoping to make it back there one day. I really wish my career started off on a console or singleplayer title rather than an MMO, or I spent more time building cinematic/film quality characters. I guess it's not too late to start and I know I can do it but drat if it isn't gonna take me another 6 months to a year to get some good stuff in my folio.
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May 11, 2013 00:03
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If we're sharing war stories, 26 with 5 years experience (if you count my internship at EA), and if not, just short of 5 continuous years, and on my second job overall. A bit under 2 years at EA followed by the last 3 years at Robot. I also happen to be a programmer with a humanities degree (Comparative Media Studies) from MIT.
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May 11, 2013 00:04
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Aliginge posted:Maybe I just need to pick up drawing for fun again, rather than study. Yeah I'd highly recommend the 'for fun' part. It's like getting double burn out when you're being super meticulous studious when you already do that for your day job. Lifedrawing doesn't count since everyone should be doing that anyways. Evvvveryone.
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May 11, 2013 00:13
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EDIT: ^^ Believe me, you don't want me life drawing. I make paper cry.mastermind2004 posted:If we're sharing war stories, 26 with 5 years experience (if you count my internship at EA), and if not, just short of 5 continuous years, and on my second job overall. A bit under 2 years at EA followed by the last 3 years at Robot. I also happen to be a programmer with a humanities degree (Comparative Media Studies) from MIT.  Did you spend your entire time at uni scowling at your coursemates?
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May 11, 2013 00:15
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Shalinor posted:Everybody that's posted "I can't find a job" that didn't link their portfolio - that you didn't have the confidence to share it, when you know that's the question we're going to ask you, might be part of why you're having difficulty finding a job. Both good work + no confidence and bad work that you know is bad would hamstring you. I just wanted to know how others felt about the art thing and share my experiences. I don't really mind sharing my portfolio. https://www.nextjenart.com is it. Aliginge posted:Actually yes. I love working as a part of a team but when I get home I prefer to just focus on enjoying my life. Glad to know I'm not totally odd. I've done some online drawing classes, so until you can find one physically close to you, maybe sign up for one in the meantime? busydelicious fucked around with this message at 00:18 on May 11, 2013 |
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May 11, 2013 00:16
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Shalinor posted:EDIT: ^^ Believe me, you don't want me life drawing. I make paper cry.
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May 11, 2013 00:22
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Shalinor posted:The only notably idiotic part is the "paying $60k+ for education" part a/o "paying for an education that doesn't translate to a job". Students get pressured into it, often by parents, but education should really just be: The whole education model sucks, but non-lawyers have it easy. Try 250K in debt only to find that your law school lied to you about post-employment statistics (both by fudging the metrics, and in the case of some schools outright fudging numbers), there are no jobs, and you now have a useless degree unless you want to try to hang your own shingle which is expensive (especially to get malpractice insurance). A market churning out tens of thousands of new grads a year for which only half at best will find relevant jobs. And people STILL think it's a good idea to go if they don't know what they want to do yet.
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May 11, 2013 00:25
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Shalinor posted:stuff If there's a new thread just about everything Shalinor is saying should be in the first post. ceebee posted:Buckwheat I'm really curious where you work and I think I might know maybe... I work at Blur Studio. Also I used to REALLY like Eddie Murphy. I'm with you on art/animation tests. I'm not really sure I get the point of them aside from testing someone fresh out of college.
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May 11, 2013 00:51
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I guess I'll do mine too, because it's fun! I'm 7 years in, and 28 years old. Started in QA work, but all my design stuff has been AAA. Worked on mods before that.
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May 11, 2013 01:57
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busydelicious posted:Any other artists here been screwed over like this? I quickly left situations where I felt I was being exploited for better opportunities. I mean, this was really only true of my first gig out of school at a start up where I was severely underpaid for my skills. In general, it's going to be easiest to get in with a company locally than it is out-of-state; but once you have a lot of relevant work experience and a strong portfolio, your mobility increases drastically. I was educated in MD, got jobs in MD, got laid off a couple times in MD, and am now working in CO (which doesn't have a huge games sector, but that's ok with me). As far as the second question, idk, i think there's a difference between wanting to make art for yourself and lacking the energy to make art after doing it for 8+ hrs a day for someone else. Often times, the last thing I want to do is look at my computer after a long day-- I'd rather bang a weight or climb a rock or something as a change of pace. That being said, I love drawing dumb comics, tshirt illustrations, etc, and those things are all different enough from what I do on a daily basis that I can usually get over the initial exhaustion from the day. I don't really relish working on 100+ hour personal pieces, but I do still love doodling dumb, low-effort stuff that takes an hour or two at the most.
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May 11, 2013 02:02
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Some of the industry histories being shared are making me feel a little better about myself. I'm sure mine will make other people feel better. 33, just (literally last week) got my first real industry job (technically an internship, but it's essentially a paid tryout for a permanent gig). Would in no way have gotten here without going through what is honestly an expensive degree at an excellent school (MFA at SCAD). Absolutely thrilled about the work, company and product. I try not to feel bad about how long it's taken to get into a career. It happens sometimes. Thought I'd be a game artist, got really design-heavy with coding during grad school, ended up in Production. It's been crazy.
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May 11, 2013 07:04
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5 years for me, with 3 failed startups in that time. Current startup seems much more stable! I wouldn't really trade it in, though - despite being shaky my career is definitely on an upward path as far as salary and title goes. I got my university tuition for free so I've only got maintenance loans to pay off. That's still over £200 a month, though! Still, the more I pay, the quicker it's paid off. I disagree with you about working while at uni, Shalinor. No way would I have learned as much and got as good a grade (a 1st) as I did if I didn't treat my studies as a full time(+) job in itself. After the first year, at least - I dropped my part time job in my second year of three. Said goodbye to a colleague yesterday! I wish I had a job somewhere with a name like Facepunch. Game Science Group is a bit wanky. We're back down to only two Full Fat refugees, now.
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May 11, 2013 09:14
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Jan posted:Observe. I'm a little late here but since starting QA two weeks ago, I'm 95% sure that every bug report I've read/regressed/written so far has ended with Observe. We have Observed Results and Expected Results under our repro steps though, so it's not exactly just Observe. But yeah, it didn't take long for me to notice that "Observe" was a running theme in our bug database.
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May 11, 2013 09:47
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