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So are we just pretending that ASoIaf doesn't exist or what.
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May 11, 2013 22:21
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Oh Snapple! posted:So are we just pretending that ASoIaf doesn't exist or what. We assume that you have already read it.
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May 12, 2013 01:27
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May wanna read the last few posts again.
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May 12, 2013 01:37
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Oh Snapple! posted:May wanna read the last few posts again. As I was talking about a topic that several authors, but not GRRM, blogged about, I did not feel it relevant to bring him up, though those authors certainly mention him. So perhaps you should read the last several posts again.
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May 12, 2013 02:37
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Ornamented Death posted:As I was talking about a topic that several authors, but not GRRM, blogged about, I did not feel it relevant to bring him up, though those authors certainly mention him. No, I read them just fine. I brought it up as a direct response to the notion that: Ornamented Death posted:the so-called grimdark books that people constantly attack and decry don't actually exist. Which just comes off as a silly statement to make when the epitome of ~grimdark~ is pretty much the most popular series in the genre at the moment. I'm not making any insinuations that Abercrombie or Lawrence fit into it, but it's certainly an phenomenon that exists and has pervaded the genre for the last few years as singular elements of it find their way into works. I can't say any series is anywhere near a match for the term as ASoIaF, but the excesses of that series have certainly had their effect on authors that have followed it. Oh Snapple! fucked around with this message at 02:58 on May 12, 2013 |
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May 12, 2013 02:52
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I'm starting Before They Are Hanged tonight! I got my dad into the trilogy before I left for school, so now I can just borrow his copies 
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May 12, 2013 03:07
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So I'm only past the first Luthar chapter in The Blade Itself and I like it fine so far, but for some reason it's weird to me when he writes things like (paraphrasing): "Ow" Jezal yelped as the stick cracked his arm' or 'Augh' Glokta groaned as he sat down. I think most people know what a groan or yelp would sound like. It's an extremely minor complaint, and doesn't impact my enjoyment in the least, but it's just kind of a puzzling use of more words than are really needed. Maybe I'm just brainwashed from writing for broadcast and brevity being the key. 
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May 12, 2013 04:51
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Oh Snapple! posted:Which just comes off as a silly statement to make when the epitome of ~grimdark~ is pretty much the most popular series in the genre at the moment. The word you're looking for is Machiavellian. Martin isn't writing about rape and murder and whatnot for the sake of rape and murder and whatnot, they are simply things that happen as a result of war and political intrigue in a medieval world. Excepting the actual fantasy elements, there's really nothing in ASoIaF that doesn't have a parallel in European history. It's one thing to say, "This is dark fantasy," because that is an identifier that lets the reader know that things aren't going to be sunshine and puppies. Using the term "grimdark", though, as Evfedu said, is meant as a pejorative and is not useful to convey anything other than that the person using it doesn't know what they're talking about. Edit: Actually, let me take a step back. Books that would quality as "grimdark" do, in fact, exist, but they are not a subgenre of fantasy. Rather, they are a subgenre of horror. Read anything by Wrath James White (first author to come to mind) and then honestly tell me that anything written by a published fantasy author even comes close. Ornamented Death fucked around with this message at 05:47 on May 12, 2013 |
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May 12, 2013 05:27
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Ornamented Death posted:The word you're looking for is Machiavellian. Martin isn't writing about rape and murder and whatnot for the sake of rape and murder and whatnot, they are simply things that happen as a result of war and political intrigue in a medieval world. Excepting the actual fantasy elements, there's really nothing in ASoIaF that doesn't have a parallel in European history. I'm frankly just going to say agree to disagree. I've read the series, and whenever I look for a way to describe it I inevitably come to the phrase "written equivalent of a medieval snuff film." It's one thing to establish that these things happen, but in my eyes Martin goes above and beyond mere establishment into outright revelry over how horrid he is to the people in his books. I think he's far too dependent on rape as an establishment tool to show Just How Bad ____ Is, and overall the series has left a sour taste in my mouth, especially with characters like Ramsay who seem to exist solely to beat the reader over the head with just how gritty everything is. It's why that linked review for Prince of Thorns immediately put me off of ever reading it. There is nothing about the mentioned scene in it that doesn't scream "Do you see how dark this is?!" at me. It strikes me as the writer going for the most horrid, shocking thing he could think of to establish his setting(and as usual when an author does this, that "thing" happens to be "a woman is raped"). It's that kind of thing that results in me calling something "grimdark". That said, I am probably going to take another look at reading it after your response to that review and Evfedu's remark that there is a reason for it. In response to your edit, I don't consider "grimdark" a sugenre of fantasy either. I generally use use it as a term for any work that features a heavy reliance on extreme violence and/or cruelty (particularly the latter) as a primary draw. I don't doubt that other writers in other genres are even worse about it, but I certainly find Martin to be among the worst when it comes to fantasy, and he's certainly had an influence on the genre that I'm frankly not all that fond of.
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May 12, 2013 06:40
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Prince of Nothing is more grimdark than asoiaf could ever be and I still like it, there's just...weird choices in there.
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May 12, 2013 06:51
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Any chance of me ever reading Bakker ended with someone mentioning something about a dragon raping an entire town to death one person at a time in the Malazan thread. That just...isn't happening.
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May 12, 2013 06:57
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Just, please. Don't say "grimdark." It's like saying "techno" or "buttrock."
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May 12, 2013 09:01
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Oh Snapple! posted:Any chance of me ever reading Bakker ended with someone mentioning something about a dragon raping an entire town to death one person at a time in the Malazan thread. That just...isn't happening. It's interesting discussing whether or not any given author is writing about rape and violence because it's a natural part of the story or because they just like it. There's no discussion with Bakker though, because he is just totally in the latter category.
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May 12, 2013 12:12
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Bakker remains the author who has made me feel the most legitimately uncomfortable when reading something (epilogue to book two). Not annoyed, not afraid, just plain old sick right down to the core. That said I've never read any of ASOIAF after how dull I found the first few chapters of GoT, but I did thoroughly enjoy Fevre Dream. 
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May 12, 2013 14:54
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ghost bones posted:So I'm only past the first Luthar chapter in The Blade Itself and I like it fine so far, but for some reason it's weird to me when he writes things like (paraphrasing): I know exactly how you feel! I was kind of confused by that in the first book, but I started reading the second book, and I think he finally hit his stride on how to use those in a comical way. In the second book they actually paint a better picture and inject some comedy into the situation.
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May 12, 2013 15:30
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I started picking up Red Country again since I only got halfway through it and stopped like four months ago. I feel like my initial review of it was unfair now. I still dislike Joe's pre-occupation with how lovely the world is. Temple and Shy are still... eh. Seriously, I miss Murcatto and Shivers.  Also, kind of hope the next book focuses on either Ferro or Jezal's developments... or is the next book the start of the second trilogy? edit: oh, we're talking about Prince of Thorns? I've been thinking about picking it up, but I've been holding off on it because from what I've been told the main protagonist apparently rapes a loving child and burns her house down and I'm still supposed to root for him? I mean, loving hell! Abercrombie's and GRRM's protagonists aren't exactly all good people, but they never do anything that monstrous and if they do, they have enough self-awareness about it that I can continue reading. Contra Calculus fucked around with this message at 17:06 on May 12, 2013 |
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May 12, 2013 16:59
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Ornamented Death posted literally all of the sexual violence to date in the series on the last page. It's not a bright and happy read but it's not Bakker.
Evfedu fucked around with this message at 23:29 on May 13, 2013 |
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May 12, 2013 17:53
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Contra Calculus posted:I started picking up Red Country again since I only got halfway through it and stopped like four months ago. I feel like my initial review of it was unfair now. I still dislike Joe's pre-occupation with how lovely the world is. Temple and Shy are still... eh. Muracatto was sooo awesome. I may have to reread that book because gently caress there was so much good stuff in there. I think her and Glokta were my favorite characters in all his books
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May 13, 2013 20:26
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Razzled posted:Muracatto was sooo awesome. I may have to reread that book because gently caress there was so much good stuff in there. I really liked Morveer for whatever reason. He was just so amusingly autistic and goony. Such good books, I'm so glad I discovered this author, he's just such a great read. I didn't find Red Country as great as the rest of his books but I still enjoyed it enough. Speaking of books, how is Prince of Thorns? I saw some people mentioning it and I'm looking for something new to read.
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May 14, 2013 01:24
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Honest Ray posted:Speaking of books, how is Prince of Thorns? I saw some people mentioning it and I'm looking for something new to read. It's pretty good, and the sequel, King of Thorns is legitimately one of the best fantasy novels written in the last five years. The series has it's fair share of naysayers (just see the previous page...), but you'll often, though not always, find that such people didn't actually read more than the first chapter or two and thus never got to the whys of all the horrible poo poo going on.
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May 14, 2013 01:29
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Evfedu posted:More than just that they don't exist, A thing being "Grimdark" has become this peculiar short-hand way of dismissing someone's work. And I've yet to see a Grimdarkian manifesto, or a definition of any kind. Grim Darkness posted:Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods. I nearly quit Prince of Thorns near the beginning because it was tough to take all Jorg's "being a terrible poo poo", but I kept on reading and definitely made the right choice. Cotton Candidasis fucked around with this message at 16:46 on May 14, 2013 |
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May 14, 2013 16:38
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I haven't seen this posted yet but Joe has a blog post with an update on the First Law graphic novel. The fist issue is free to view. He provides a link in the article below. http://www.joeabercrombie.com/2013/05/08/major-west-needs-you/ Edit: I can't stop laughing at Glokta's pimp strut. Clinton1011 fucked around with this message at 18:21 on May 15, 2013 |
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May 15, 2013 18:17
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None of the characters in the comic look like what I imagined them to be. They all look far. . . I dunno, prettier?
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May 15, 2013 19:28
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The Rat posted:None of the characters in the comic look like what I imagined them to be. They all look far. . . I dunno, prettier? Just look at Logen's hand.
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May 15, 2013 20:31
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The Marshal Varuz in this is apparently Peter Cushing's comic twin. I'm okay with that.
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May 15, 2013 20:57
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There was a lot of moaning about the way the characters look when the graphic novel was announced (as you can see from previous pages as well). Finally Joe just basically went "look it's not going to be redrawn at this point, maybe just try and give it a chance?". Which is of course understandable from him, but I personally don't like the artist's style at all. It has no personality, no grit, no nothing. I think TFL would have deserved better.
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May 15, 2013 21:21
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Yup. Even the Shanka are symmetrical and cartoony, TFL Needs someone like Lewis Larosa.
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May 15, 2013 22:31
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I have to believe in my heart of hearts that Joe realizes how much the art in the comic is loving horrible.
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May 16, 2013 20:16
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Picked up The Blade Itself today after reading through this thread. Holy poo poo.  I was on page 15 or so when I realized I was going to be reading every book this man has written.
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May 16, 2013 21:48
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So you know, the beginning of The Blade Itself is easily the worst thing he's ever written. I would recommend jumping into the Heroes and Red Country first if reading the other books didn't make them better than excellent.
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May 17, 2013 00:19
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I wanted to like it but jeez that comic blows. Like kind of really hard. I'm not even sure where to start complaining about it because everything is awful. The only thing that's decent is the story and even then it really feels like they totally ruined the pacing. The characters, the costumes, the settings, are all wrong and as cheap-looking as possible :/
Play fucked around with this message at 05:26 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 17, 2013 05:16
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I finished Red Country yesterday. I am now saddened, because there are no more novels. I am also saddened because this might be the last we'll see of Logen. Bastard, murderer, psychopath, good guy and now surrogate father all at once. But oh man is he still a loving badass, even as I have to acknowledge the terrible things he's done, I can't help but find him awesome, especially when he's the Bloody Nine. I got chills when he slaughtered 15 mercenaries sent in to kill him when he was cornered with Savian, and then proceeded to throw dismembered pieces of their corpses outside at the remaining mercs. I'm kind of surprised nothing more was done with his spirit-talking ability. I know that aside from the trilogy the books have been quite low magic, save for the Eaters, but it feels like the spirit facility is just a hanging thread - is the Bloody Nine a spirit, and if so, what spirit? Maybe in the next trilogy... Temple and Shy were alright, but nothing amazing. It's kind of odd - even though I think Abercrombie's prose and overall writing has improved a lot since the Blade Itself, my favourite characters are still mostly those he created then - Bayaz, Logen, Jezal and Glokta. Gorst is the only one from the stand-alones I'd put on the same level. I suppose having 3 books to develop the characters is a big advantage. Overall, I liked this more than Best Served Cold (my least liked of the series) and less than The Heroes.
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May 17, 2013 11:16
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I finally got around to finishing The Heroes. Holy gently caress is Gorst annoying.
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May 18, 2013 06:34
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Ornamented Death posted:Holy gently caress is Gorst annoying. And yet I still love him. It's sort of weird how that works, a testament to Joe's writing I guess.
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May 19, 2013 01:45
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quote:And yet I still love him. It's sort of weird how that works, a testament to Joe's writing I guess. Possibly because his internal 'style' is very vivid and memorable, as much as the main trio from the trilogy, in my opinion.
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May 19, 2013 14:42
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TheWorldIsSquare posted:And yet I still love him. It's sort of weird how that works, a testament to Joe's writing I guess.
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May 19, 2013 23:51
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I just finished Red Country. I've been moving at a snail's pace because of other poo poo that has cropped up in my life. Well, my initial dislike of it was somewhat unjustified, but some of it still remains: Cosca's entire downfall and death felt very ham-fisted and horribly mishandled. Leef getting murdered off like 10 chapters after he's introduced is well... like I said, having a character show up and killing him off not 50 pages later is not good nor is it shocking writing, it's just frustrating. Same goes for Papa Ring and Wurdenheimer or whatever the dragon guy's name is that became Ro's father. Corlin being the real Conthus was completely stupid and nonsensical and was also clearly intended for the sole purpose of being shocking. In fact, her and the whole rebellion's existence was pointless in the first place because it didn't actually lead anywhere. Finally, Shy and Temple are the worst POV's Abercrombie has ever written. Temple is like if Calder or Jezal were less-likable and remained completely static as cowardly idiots throughout the whole story. Shy just becomes a one-note caricature of a bandit cowgirl who has a few awesome action scenes, but is otherwise completely and utterly forgettable as a character. Gorst may have been an annoying poo poo, but at least he was a memorable annoying poo poo. That all said, fight scenes and descriptions of territories and some other stuff is well-done. It was cool seeing some familiar faces too I guess no matter how insanely unlikely it was to see them in Starikland. How in the gently caress did Eider migrate across the entire world and end up mayor of a dead-end town like Crease? Why the gently caress would she do that? Best Served Cold gave the impression she was still rich. She could have hid from the Union practically anywhere, couldn't she? While it's overall an okay book, it's not one I'd really be willing to revisit ever again. Nor would I really like revisiting the whole Near/Far Country territory in any of Abercrombie's future books.
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May 20, 2013 01:02
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The rebellion's there for an outside-the-plot reason: westerns are almost universally set a few years after the American Civil War, and populated by shell-shocked veterans from both sides of the conflict.
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May 20, 2013 02:26
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I guess what I meant to say is that they don't really do much to affect this particular story beyond robbing Shy and Temple in one of the final scenes. Hell, the only one of them that actually does anything that feels relevant to the main story is Savian.
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May 20, 2013 04:30
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Above Our Own posted:I agree. He respects his opponents, he's valorous in battle. He's a master tactician and warrior both, and he struggled against his common birth to make a name for himself solely on his merits. There's a lot to like about him and a lot not to like, which is why Abercrombie's characters are so engaging. I don't recall Gorst displaying a mastery of tactics. He seems conversant with tactics and strategy, but we don't see him do any leading. I also don't recall him saying anything about his common birth. At one stage in the trilogy it's mentioned 'dan' implies nobility in the blood at some stage. I don't recall Gorst giving much of his story pre-trilogy other than having an emotionally abusive dad.
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May 20, 2013 11:49
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