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The Legion is temporary and simply the means to an end. The means however are completely horrid and Caesar's endgame is unknown. There's no guarantee that mashing two very different societies together will result in anything but factionalization and civil war. Even if Caesar is a shrewd dictator that can ruthlessly quell uprisings and merge the two cultures there's no guarantee he will live long enough for things to stabilize or appoint a proper heir. It's a gamble with too high stakes. Even if you agree with the "the end justifies the means" maxim, what exactly is the end? We have no idea what Caesar's policies will be in post-Legion society. Will slavery be abolished and will the new society more resemble NCR with a dictatorship (effectively the Tandi administration), or will Caesar see fit to institute a more brutal, "virtuous" society? Honestly, Caesar strikes me as a morally deficient rear end in a top hat and his whole project will either fall apart in his hands or result in an unethical society. Connoisseur fucked around with this message at 11:55 on May 15, 2013 |
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May 15, 2013 11:47
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Raygereio posted:Bull. Yeah, technically everyone in Caesar's Legion is a slave to Caesar. But Caesar's Legion is still terribly mysogonistic: it considers women sub-human and treats them worse then men. I'm not really sure I'm ready for a debate over whether spending your entire life brutally forced to fight for no personal gain or as breeding stock is worse. I've never done either, I'm not sure I can make a claim either way. Raygereio posted:Popular support? When Caesar's Legion comes rolling in, it either kills you or enslaves you. It doesn't care wether you like it or not. No, it doesn't. If CL decides you deserve this, you did something to earn it, however slight or justified whatever you did was. Eiba posted:I really need to get to sleep, or I'd respond to the whole thing. Actually, probably for the best that I don't as a lot of it's pretty irrelevant to the original points. Got to address this, though: No, that is not my defense of the Legion. My defense of the Legion's existence is that a society isn't invalidated by it's atrocities, even if I agree that they must be stopped. My defense of the Legion as a people is that they don't have much choice. I don't have a defense of Caesar himself. Institutionalized rape is absolutely heinous. So is conscription, especially into wars that aren't necessary but fueled by greed. (also relevant is that you don't get to 'opt out' of being a citizen of the NCR, you either brave the wastes looking for someone else or you're on the list to be conscripted. Or worse, you are not born a citizen, your home is annexed without your consent, and then you are eligible for conscription.) As bad as rape on a massive scale? no, not at all - but the need to fight the NCR is what birthed the Legion, and they're the only ones that can do it, and even still they're likely to lose. The Legion as it is is a horrible solution, but! No one has crafted a better one, save for House and his Mojave existing as a separate state and curbing NCR hubris, and now that the Legion DOES exist, crafting a military force that can stand up to the NCR is even more unlikely, as there is a finite amount of resources and manpower.
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May 15, 2013 11:51
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I remember that originally all the factions were going to be "more grey" and probably didn't have the Legion be so morally repugnant, but it was dropped to reinforce the very dark difference between the Legion and the NCR, with the latter being portrayed more as the good, incompetent guys. House was made to appeal to Scandinavians or something like that, from what I remember rope kid posting about. I do kind of wish we got the grey storyline instead of these "best choices".
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May 15, 2013 12:00
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Wolfsheim posted:Assuming it is true, I think it's one of the few examples that makes a stronger case for the Legion. House has the obvious advantage in firepower, but the trouble is when his army isn't rolling around they're kept inactive in vast underground bunkers, and I hope you immediately see the problem with that. House himself is tucked away in the Lucky 38's basement, he would be one of the first to have his head caved in by one of the little bastards. As log as the Courier properly informs House in this scenario of the nature of the threat, I doubt he would go without addressing any of these issues. Since he'd have the Platinum Chip in a playthrough where his faction prevailed, he should theoretically do even better in avoiding a doomsday scenario for Vegas than the nuclear attack two hundred years previous without the chip.
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May 15, 2013 12:58
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Raygereio posted:Bull. Yeah, technically everyone in Caesar's Legion is a slave to Caesar. But Caesar's Legion is still terribly mysogonistic: it considers women sub-human and treats them worse then men. I would have liked to go to where the Legion's children are raised and talk to some of the female slaves, who would of course be disgusted with me because I am a man and only good for fighting and dying, not fit to bear and raise children like women. It wouldn't have made the Legion good (I hasten to add) but it would have been a cool facet of their alien society.
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May 15, 2013 13:11
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Mordaedil posted:I remember that originally all the factions were going to be "more grey" and probably didn't have the Legion be so morally repugnant, but it was dropped to reinforce the very dark difference between the Legion and the NCR, with the latter being portrayed more as the good, incompetent guys. Honestly, I like the way it is currently. If the NCR is too bad then it retroactively makes helping them out in the first two games a bad idea; one of the hard things with a series like this is making sure your actions in previous games are not invalidated. As it is you can totally support the NCR (and many do, obviously) while still being aware of their flaws. As for the Legion, they're antagonists for 75% of potential players, so I don't mind them not being easy to side with morally. I do mind that their society runs on consistent rules, and for that reason I'm glad Caesar is there to explain those rules to me. Otherwise I don't need any more reason to join them than I did to join the Master, or the Enclave, or Elijah. House is pure baller, and I have a lot more sympathy and respect for him as a character after reading the recent arguments about him in the last few pages. (Sorry for double posting, I'm on my phone and can't paste quotes into my other post with this lovely browser)
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May 15, 2013 13:27
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Thanqol posted:I think everyone here is forgetting the most important side to this debate. Little late here, but it's not permanent, it's a one minute buff every time you cannibalize someone or eat human remains. So it's really just a matter of eating all the faction leaders, and then forcing the Mojave residents to sacrifice someone every week to ensure your continued superhuman abilities. I see nothing wrong with this plan.  2house2fly posted:I would have liked to go to where the Legion's children are raised and talk to some of the female slaves, who would of course be disgusted with me because I am a man and only good for fighting and dying, not fit to bear and raise children like women. It wouldn't have made the Legion good (I hasten to add) but it would have been a cool facet of their alien society. The Legion condoning rape is the thing that pushes them from regressive but pragmatic to cartoonishly villainous for me. If Caesar had set up a system where men were superior to women, but women could still be "free" and not have to suffer constant rape, I could see it functioning, backwards as it was. As it is, the whole thing is so obviously one man living out a juvenile fantasy that it just isn't possible to take seriously. Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 15:04 on May 15, 2013 |
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May 15, 2013 14:47
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Utgardaloki posted:I'm not really sure I'm ready for a debate over whether spending your entire life brutally forced to fight for no personal gain or as breeding stock is worse. I've never done either, I'm not sure I can make a claim either way. Wait, are you defending Caesar's Legion on the basis of NCR conscription? Legion service isn't exactly a choice either. Also, if this is an unnecessary war, it's on Caesar, he shot first (first taking over an NCR fort on the other side of the Colorado, then the first battle of Hoover Dam.) And you're not defending Caesar himself? What exactly is your point?
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May 15, 2013 14:52
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StandardVC10 posted:Wait, are you defending Caesar's Legion on the basis of NCR conscription? Legion service isn't exactly a choice either. I'm arguing against the NCR on the basis of conscription. To me it's just as repellent as Legion service, only NCR soldiers have the benefit of poor training and getting to leave behind loved ones. Also, the wars the NCR deems fit to drat people into service are about greed and servicing their elite, an inherently immoral cause to force men and women to their deaths. The Legion, cruel as it is, has a much more noble cause - fixing the NCR before they spread their brand of corruption to the vulnerable post-nuclear world. StandardVC10 posted:Also, if this is an unnecessary war, it's on Caesar, he shot first (first taking over an NCR fort on the other side of the Colorado, then the first battle of Hoover Dam.) I never said it was unnecessary. I think it's wholly necessary. The NCR is power-hungry men 'elected' by an uneducated people, themselves shepherded and represented by wealthy elite and other corrupt bureaucrats. They need to be fought. I'd rather it be by House than the Legion, and I'd rather it be by anyone more down to earth than House... but those aren't options. StandardVC10 posted:And you're not defending Caesar himself? What exactly is your point? I dunno, someone lamented that nobody was defending the Legion. Also, the NCR sucks.
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May 15, 2013 15:35
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Keeshhound posted:Little late here, but it's not permanent, it's a one minute buff every time you cannibalize someone or eat human remains. So it's really just a matter of eating all the faction leaders, and then forcing the Mojave residents to sacrifice someone every week to ensure your continued superhuman abilities. I see nothing wrong with this plan. Succession planning takes care of itself too! Whoever eats the Courier becomes the next Superpowered Mojave Cannibal King!
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May 15, 2013 15:47
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Thanqol posted:Succession planning takes care of itself too! Whoever eats the Courier becomes the next Superpowered Mojave Cannibal King! Truly, cannibalism is secret of stable governance.
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May 15, 2013 16:06
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How else do you think the White Glove society has survived this long? Certainly not through casino profits alone!
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May 15, 2013 16:24
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It's really not all that fair to pick on the Legion because everyone knows they're basically cartoon villains since the writers didn't make an honest effort to pitch the Legion way of life. Not to mention that I don't think anybody intended for the Legion to be rapetastic, it just...happened. It seems really incongruous to introduce rape within one faction and then not address the issue for other factions. It also is just too weird for the Legion to be reintroducing classical gender roles when the rest of the world seems to have forgotten them. Really, you'd think that if Caesar remembered someone else in the wasteland would've remembered too.
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May 15, 2013 16:55
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Mordaedil posted:I remember that originally all the factions were going to be "more grey" and probably didn't have the Legion be so morally repugnant, but it was dropped to reinforce the very dark difference between the Legion and the NCR, with the latter being portrayed more as the good, incompetent guys. I seem to remember a dev (rope kid?) saying that the Legion was never supposed to be less evil, but rather that you'd get to go see Legion-held civilian territory and travel with Ulysses, who'd be a Legion supporter. Right now, even if you're a complete sociopath, the Legion isn't a terribly good choice, and it would have been nice to see them upgraded to "Well, I guess these guys probably are a good choice to run the Mojave, if, you know, you are completely lacking a moral compass."
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May 15, 2013 17:19
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Keeshhound posted:The Legion condoning rape is the thing that pushes them from regressive but pragmatic to cartoonishly villainous for me. If Caesar had set up a system where men were superior to women, but women could still be "free" and not have to suffer constant rape, I could see it functioning, backwards as it was. As it is, the whole thing is so obviously one man living out a juvenile fantasy that it just isn't possible to take seriously. The problem with aligning yourself with the Legion is that they're a military without a civilization, which makes them throroughly unsympathetic and none of their actions can be construed as a necessary evil furthering a good cause. That said, I can definitely see why young men would flock to a something like that though in a time of social disintegration; it has that fascist appeal of subsuming the self to a greater cause, etc.
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May 15, 2013 17:32
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SlothfulCobra posted:It seems really incongruous to introduce rape within one faction and then not address the issue for other factions. It doesn't go totally unaddressed in the NCR, there's that one NCR officer at McCarran with a sidequest that touches on it and gives you another reason to start wiping out Fiends if the money doesn't do it for you. Everybody you can talk to about it is pretty clear on their opinion that what happened to Betsy is awful and 10 of Spades is eaten up with self-loathing that he "let it happen". Nobody pulls you aside and gives you a big PSA but context tells us the NCR is not big on rape culture. Certainly rape happens within NCR territories and I suppose it might have been fair to touch on that instead just pinning everything to Cook-Cook, but it's not official policy. Even if you had a quest about, say, a high-ranking NCR functionary who got away with some vile poo poo due to his importance to the war effort, that's still not as repugnant as the fact that across the river it happens every day over and over. No amount of bureaucratic corruption and incompetence could meet the Legion on those terms. I haven't done a House playthrough, but I can't imagine him caring too much one way or the other about the horrific indignities being inflicted on individual people. It's just vaguely distasteful background noise around poo poo That Needs To Get Done.
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May 15, 2013 17:55
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I give up, reading this thread totally got me into playing NV again, on hardcore with a few mods including Josh Sawyer's NV mod, which seems pretty sweet. Had the Ultimate Edition for ages now, but never got around playing through any of the DLC due to laziness. Do they actually add something to the main story line, or are they just silly separate adventures with new enemies and loot, like in F3?
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May 15, 2013 18:27
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Only House and Yes Man are good guys. 
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May 15, 2013 18:32
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Frungy! posted:Do they actually add something to the main story line, or are they just silly separate adventures with new enemies and loot, like in F3? ... No, they're essentially seperate adventures. But they are connected both to each other and the main game's story.
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May 15, 2013 18:33
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Undead Unicorn posted:Only House and Yes Man are good guys. Mostly due to lack of bodies with which to commit rape.  I just lost all faith in humanity of the Fallout games. And in general.
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May 15, 2013 18:36
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They're separate stories, but each has some form of foreshadowing/payoff in the main game or the other dLCs, doing a good job of making it feel like a series of adventures in one big world. For example, early in the main game the Mojave Express guy tells you that the Platinum Chip delivery was originally going to be done by someone else, who walked out as soon as he saw the Courier's name(I got a kick out of "he asked if your name was for real" the first time I played, since I'd named my character Mmmmrrrmmfff, my dazed reaction to being asked as soon as I woke up with brain damage). Also you meet great characters and get great loot. What's not to like?
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May 15, 2013 18:38
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Frungy! posted:I give up, reading this thread totally got me into playing NV again, on hardcore with a few mods including Josh Sawyer's NV mod, which seems pretty sweet. They don't strictly speaking add anything to the main game, but the storylines within the DLC's flesh out and expand on the world of the game. They are also excellent and not silly in any way (except for Old World Blues I guess).
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May 15, 2013 18:47
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Good to hear they actually have something to do with the main game, instead of just "RANDOM ALIEN ABDUCTION! ". Google tells me that the best order to go through them is: Honest Hearts (lvl 10) -> Old World Blues (lvl 15) -> Dead Money (lvl 20) -> Lonesome Road (lvl 25-30). Some are saying that Dead Money should be played before OWB, but I guess in the end it doesn't really matter?
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May 15, 2013 19:18
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I think that HH goes best when you get to Vegas but before you get the Strip (since you take a caravan trip out of the Mojave for caps, I just rationalised it as my way of paying to get into the Strip). I prefer DM before OWB, since I think some of the reveals/foreshadowing work better that way than in reverse, and finally LR should be delayed until very close to entering the endgame. Not for any real gameplay reasons, but because it plays better if you've come very close to committing to a faction.
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May 15, 2013 19:22
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Mordaedil posted:
This is a statement I whole-heartily concur with. This wishy-washy good and evil is too common and boring. But seriously - really? Scandinavians? Did I miss the memo that puts us in the moral grey zone?
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May 15, 2013 20:05
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Death by Cranes posted:This is a statement I whole-heartily concur with. This wishy-washy good and evil is too common and boring. Our ~*~Socialism~*~.
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May 15, 2013 20:08
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Death by Cranes posted:But seriously - really? Scandinavians? Did I miss the memo that puts us in the moral grey zone?
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May 15, 2013 20:14
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So every couple of months or so I try to come back to this game just to be reminded how drat buggy it is. My copy is on PS3, and whenever I've been playing more than a few minutes it starts to completely freeze up at seemingly random intervals. I tried uninstalling then reinstalling, and then everyone's face was pink and textures were seemingly randomized. I tried again and now when I try to talk to anyone the game freezes for 5 minutes or so between every dialogue screen. Do I just have a bad copy of the game, or do other PS3-havers have this issue?
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May 15, 2013 20:24
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KillerQueen posted:My copy is on PS3 There's your problem right there
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May 15, 2013 20:26
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Utgardaloki posted:The Legion, cruel as it is, has a much more noble cause - fixing the NCR before they spread their brand of corruption to the vulnerable post-nuclear world. That's Caesar's goal, not the legion's. If he told his minions that they only existed to be a cartoonishly evil villain for the NCR to measure itself against, he'd be deposed in a heartbeat. The actual legion's goal is to conquer everything, everywhere, and enforce strict cultural hegemony. Which really isn't noble at all, even if the culture you want to enforce is a good one. Since the legion is pretty much the most disgusting possible culture in nearly every respect, I'm having a hard time seeing even a scrap of nobility anywhere in there.
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May 15, 2013 20:27
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Mordaedil posted:Our ~*~Socialism~*~. I guess the reason I picked House for my first playthrough was the ruthlessness with which he slides bullshit off the table and focuses on how the human race can survive to strive for more. I'd wish we had a Mr. House in Denmark right now; we're turning into USA with only two blocks in politics. Good or evil, blue or red - same loving thing. Both without vision. Death by Cranes fucked around with this message at 20:34 on May 15, 2013 |
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May 15, 2013 20:31
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It is a bit disappointing how  the Legion is. Sure they are fun enemies and I like their football gear uniforms, flags, Latin titles and all that stuff, but I thought they would be a faction that looks evil and ruthless on the outside but ends up being in the grey area after you learn more about them. I first imagined Caesar as a charismatic, intelligent and eloquent dictator who would actually have some good ideas and shows me how even the slaves have rights and are having pretty good lives under his rule, in an environment that is a lot safer than anywhere else in the wasteland or something like that.
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May 15, 2013 22:28
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Frungy! posted:It is a bit disappointing how Honestly my biggest problem with the Legion is that they aren't related to an alternate universe Caesar's Palace.
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May 15, 2013 22:41
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Frungy! posted:It is a bit disappointing how Except the "good ideas" he has aren't about people living good lives under his rule, it's about preserving the fragile civilization of the NCR from itself or something like that. His Legion is pretty horrific but just a means to an end. That said, the means are just way too hosed up to begin to be a sympathetic way of reaching the ends... and it doesn't help that the ends are kind of questionable too. In the end, I think they're still pretty neat because even if they could be probably be called evil without too much serious debate, they still make sense. You can see how a group like that would form, and why they'd behave like they do. They're plausible evil not muahaha evil.
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May 15, 2013 22:43
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Frungy! posted:Good to hear they actually have something to do with the main game, instead of just "RANDOM ALIEN ABDUCTION! Well to be fair, I think a random alien abduction makes more sense than a scheduled alien abduction, in most cases. 
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May 15, 2013 23:18
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Frungy! posted:I first imagined Caesar as a charismatic, intelligent and eloquent dictator who would actually have some good ideas Well, he does have some good ideas. He just has some really loving terrible ones too. And they overwhelm the good ones.
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May 15, 2013 23:28
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That and he reacts to anyone questioning those ideas by stomping his feet and throwing a fit.
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May 16, 2013 02:54
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I don't think that would really invalidate player's decisions. If the player comes back, generations later, to find the settlement or nation he helped out has become lazy, corrupt, and evil, they can go on a quest to purify and redeem that nation.
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May 16, 2013 03:15
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God help me, I'm reinstalling New Vegas too. I keep drifting back to Guns/Speech/Science, time to shake things up a bit. Is there a big difference in Unarmed vs Melee, or should I be taking both?
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May 16, 2013 03:17
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DeathChicken posted:That and he reacts to anyone questioning those ideas by stomping his feet and throwing a fit.  Eiba posted:Well, honestly, I think they are that. YggiDee posted:God help me, I'm reinstalling New Vegas too.
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May 16, 2013 03:18
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