Dewgy posted:Again, focus went from arcade style, play for five minute games to games you sit down with for a few hours. This is less of a hardware problem and more of a paradigm shift though. You seem to be describing the shift between 3rd generation consoles (i.e. NES) to 4th generation consoles (i.e. SNES).
|
|
# ? May 17, 2013 16:17 |
|
|
# ? Jun 4, 2024 06:09 |
|
NewtGoongrich posted:You seem to be describing the shift between 3rd generation consoles (i.e. NES) to 4th generation consoles (i.e. SNES). Eh, I'd still say there was a pretty big shift between the PSX and PS2 era, and the Dreamcast fit awkwardly in there. Lots of arcadey titles whereas the PS2 and Xbox eventually started the "AAA" trend. Didn't help the DC much that it got a lot of bad PSX/N64 ports, too.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 16:23 |
Dewgy posted:Eh, I'd still say there was a pretty big shift between the PSX and PS2 era, and the Dreamcast fit awkwardly in there. Lots of arcadey titles whereas the PS2 and Xbox eventually started the "AAA" trend. The "AAA" (i.e. high production value games that had 20-50 hours of content) titles of the SNES and PSX era were JRPGs produced for the Japanese market, with the North American market mostly being an afterthought. I think what you're describing is the shift in dominance in game development from Japan to the US/Canada. All "AAA" style titles cater primarily to the American market, with the Japanese market being an afterthought, or not being thought of at all. Also, arcade style games haven't disappeared, they've just become shovelware on Nintendo platforms.
|
|
# ? May 17, 2013 16:32 |
|
OK, and that's a counter to my original point of the Dreamcast being caught in the middle of an awkward paradigm shift... How? You're splitting hairs over the definition of AAA but not really arguing against me. Hint: AAA wasn't really a thing until recent games with enormous budgets. Yeah it started somewhat on the PSX, but you can really only call them AAA titles retroactively, nobody was using the term then and they don't have a lot of the "thousands of people in the credits and millions of dollars on assets" aspects of modern high budget games.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 16:37 |
|
Dewgy posted:Again, focus went from arcade style, play for five minute games to games you sit down with for a few hours. This is less of a hardware problem and more of a paradigm shift though. I used to play Resident Evil hours on end. And what about Mario 64? edit: or do the "for a few hours" you are referring to the PS2's 30-40 second load times every 10 minutes? Prorat fucked around with this message at 16:41 on May 17, 2013 |
# ? May 17, 2013 16:38 |
|
The idea that all it takes is one console generation to kill off a company comes up every drat time anything isn't hitting expectations and it's almost always rooted in fanboy wish fulfillment where people who like other consoles are left crying and rending their garments in the streets begging to be let into cool kid's clubhouse. The Dreamcast was a swan song performed by taking the mangled remains of a swan forcing air into it's one unpunctured lung with a broken bicycle-pump and expelling the air by hitting the swan with a wooden mallet. The swan is an allegory for SEGA.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 16:42 |
|
Prorat posted:I used to play Resident Evil hours on end. And what about Mario 64? Solid repetitive gameplay that lasts that long combined with really good level design. Anyway I'm not saying you couldn't play games for hours before the PS2 (come on that'd be silly) but there've still been enormous changes in how games are structured since then. I'd argue even RE and Mario 64 show some of those differences too, though it's hard to point out the flaws of a generation when you're giving me really good titles to nitpick.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 16:43 |
Dewgy posted:OK, and that's a counter to my original point of the Dreamcast being caught in the middle of an awkward paradigm shift... How? You're splitting hairs over the definition of AAA but not really arguing against me. The paradigm shift began with the 4th generation and was fully complete by the 5th. SirDan3k posted:The Dreamcast was a swan song performed by taking the mangled remains of a swan forcing air into it's one unpunctured lung with a broken bicycle-pump and expelling the air by hitting the swan with a wooden mallet. The swan is an allegory for SEGA. This is beautiful.
|
|
# ? May 17, 2013 16:43 |
|
NewtGoongrich posted:The paradigm shift began with the 4th generation and was fully complete by the 5th. Do you have a press release or something from the paradigm to back this up or are you just being an rear end.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 16:44 |
Dewgy posted:Do you have a press release or something from the paradigm to back this up or are you just being an rear end. NewtGoongrich posted:The "AAA" (i.e. high production value games that had 20-50 hours of content) titles of the SNES and PSX era were JRPGs produced for the Japanese market, with the North American market mostly being an afterthought. I think what you're describing is the shift in dominance in game development from Japan to the US/Canada. All "AAA" style titles cater primarily to the American market, with the Japanese market being an afterthought, or not being thought of at all. Also, what do you have to back up your point about Dreamcast being caught up in a paradigm shift besides your own opinions? NewtGoongrich fucked around with this message at 16:49 on May 17, 2013 |
|
# ? May 17, 2013 16:46 |
|
Dewgy posted:Eh, I'd still say there was a pretty big shift between the PSX and PS2 era, and the Dreamcast fit awkwardly in there. Lots of arcadey titles whereas the PS2 and Xbox eventually started the "AAA" trend. Long non-arcade type games on consoles go back a lot further than that. If you ever find yourself with nothing to do try watching some episodes of Chrontendo. After 1985 or so the Famicom was absolutely flooded with lovely JRPGs and adventure games that basically involve spending hours plowing through every option in a menu over and over again until something happens. Most never made it overseas because they were really bad. Most of those "AAA" developers were working their magic back in the 90s, but they tended to focus their best efforts on the PC since consoles at the time were too primitive to do what they were trying to do. It wasn't until the original Xbox landed that they started targeting controllers and the living room.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 16:50 |
|
The_Franz posted:Most of those "AAA" developers were working their magic back in the 90s, but they tended to focus their best efforts on the PC since consoles at the time were too primitive to do what they were trying to do. It wasn't until the original Xbox landed that they started targeting controllers and the living room. Can you give me some examples of games?
|
# ? May 17, 2013 16:52 |
|
NewtGoongrich posted:Also, arcade style games haven't disappeared, they've just become shovelware on Nintendo platforms.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 16:56 |
|
The title "Is WiiU Nintendo's Dreamcast" is metaphorical. Whether the Dreamcast was in a paradigm shift is a stupid derail and had nothing to do with the thread so shut the gently caress up about it.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 16:57 |
|
Edit: ^^^ Fair enough, it was just supposed to be an aside anyway, drat. NewtGoongrich posted:Also, what do you have to back up your point about Dreamcast being caught up in a paradigm shift besides your own opinions? Nothing because it's not exactly a peer reviewed sociological fact or any poo poo like that, but as far as I see it the Dreamcast was one of the last systems that had stuff like Sega Bass Fishing, Chu Chu Rocket, and Jet Set Radio as major hyped first party titles. All simple, repetitive, arcadey; and Sega seemed to promote third parties to make similar titles as much as possible. I noticed that dropping off a lot after the Dreamcast, but hey, maybe I'm just crazy.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 16:57 |
Surlaw posted:Actually a lot of arcade style games are still very good and popular and are big on PSN, XBLA, phones, and PCs in addition to being on Nintendo platforms Yeah I should have clarified that. I meant titles that you'll see on the shelves of stores sold at the price of a non-shovelware game. Arcade games tend to be very cheap and digitally distributed--except on Nintendo platforms where they somehow grace the shelves of stores at ridiculous prices.
|
|
# ? May 17, 2013 16:58 |
|
Prorat posted:Can you give me some examples of games? If I had to take a guess, I would imagine things like Wing Commander and its FMV cutscenes are the sort of "AAA" titles from the 90s, but I dont think thats an apt comparison. AAA, to me, is synonymous with bank busting budgets which really wasnt something companies would sign off on until the 20mil+ sales of Modern Warfare 2. Of course, nothing BUT MW2 ever really hit those numbers, but EA and friends kept bankrolling 100million+ dollar games in the hopes that theyd get that popular. e: We dont have numbers to work with because vgcharts is notoriously inaccurate, but look at a critical darling like Bioshock: Infinite. It took how many hundreds of millions of dollars, and six years to produce, and still only turned up middling sales.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 17:00 |
|
Dewgy posted:Nothing because it's not exactly a peer reviewed sociological fact or any poo poo like that, but as far as I see it the Dreamcast was one of the last systems that had stuff like Sega Bass Fishing, Chu Chu Rocket, and Jet Set Radio as major hyped first party titles. All simple, repetitive, arcadey; and Sega seemed to promote third parties to make similar titles as much as possible. I noticed that dropping off a lot after the Dreamcast, but hey, maybe I'm just crazy. Whoa, did you just put JSR and Chu-Chu Rocket in the same category as Sega Bass Fishing? Sega Bass Fishing and Daytona and the tons of fighters that dropped on the system were due to the Dreamcast being an arcade board inside, something the PS2 couldn't fully replicate. I don't remember those games being particularly hyped very long into the systems life cycle when things like Skies of Arcadia and Sonic Adventure 2 were releasing. You're also totally ignoring that things like Unreal Tournament and Quake 3 were on the Dreamcast with full online play that went head to head against PC users. Or like I said before, Phantasy Star Online the first console MMO. Prorat posted:Can you give me some examples of games? Anything by Bioware, Black Isles, Westwood, Blizzard, Bethesda, Maxis, and ID are solid starts.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 17:02 |
|
Guys this is a silly derail. Dreamcast had lots of arcade games because Sega was then very much still an arcade company, and the DC's hardware itself was the same hardware put into their arcade machines. Anyway, back to the actual console the thread was intended for, the Wii U: while not really 'news' given their previous 'no games in development' statement, EA confirmed no FIFA 14 for Wii U due to poor sales of FIFA 13.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 17:20 |
|
For me, Nintendo's post Gamecube hardware has seemed more like incremental updates, for example DS>DS Lite>DSi>3DS, and comes across like the endless slew of Smartphone model updates that add a bit more functionality rather than a whole new product. The leap from NES to SNES to N64 was fairly tangible each time, but the last decade or so has been more like variations on a theme, and that theme has often been weird 'innovative' controls, which hold little appeal to me. I'd rather a normal controller (only 2 prongs please!) and effort into making decent games that will work with anyone's out-the-box setup, without having to buy Nunchucks and god knows what else to attain full functionality.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 17:42 |
|
This is a bit of a derail but it feels like the 3DS is rather lacking in some features. There's no account system for it and there's no real incentive to get a Wii U if you have a 3DS, and vice-versa. I mean, the PS Vita is touted to have connectivity with the PS4 and we have no idea how that'll turn out, but at least Sony is giving it a shot. 3DS and Wii U? They might as well not even be from the same company. Of course, the lack of a second stick is part of this too. Nintendo could've added a second stick to the 3DS XL but they didn't and the result is that if there is future Wii U-3DS connectivity, people will have to buy the CCP.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 17:47 |
|
Argas posted:This is a bit of a derail but it feels like the 3DS is rather lacking in some features. There's no account system for it and there's no real incentive to get a Wii U if you have a 3DS, and vice-versa. I mean, the PS Vita is touted to have connectivity with the PS4 and we have no idea how that'll turn out, but at least Sony is giving it a shot. 3DS and Wii U? They might as well not even be from the same company. Of course, the lack of a second stick is part of this too. Nintendo could've added a second stick to the 3DS XL but they didn't and the result is that if there is future Wii U-3DS connectivity, people will have to buy the CCP. There is actually some connectivity but the only example I have on hand is the terrible one with Monster Hunter 3 where the 3DS version can play online but only if your online connection is routed through a WiiU.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 17:49 |
|
NonzeroCircle posted:For me, Nintendo's post Gamecube hardware has seemed more like incremental updates, for example DS>DS Lite>DSi>3DS, and comes across like the endless slew of Smartphone model updates that add a bit more functionality rather than a whole new product. The leap from NES to SNES to N64 was fairly tangible each time, but the last decade or so has been more like variations on a theme, and that theme has often been weird 'innovative' controls, which hold little appeal to me. I'd rather a normal controller (only 2 prongs please!) and effort into making decent games that will work with anyone's out-the-box setup, without having to buy Nunchucks and god knows what else to attain full functionality.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 17:50 |
|
If Nintendo does get out of the home console biz, but stays in the portable console biz (which I assume they wouldn't give up since it's doing so well), is there any chance Nintendo properties could get onto other hardware? That's what I want to see happen but having a very successful portable console means they might just stick to that entirely.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 17:51 |
|
Samurai Sanders posted:If Nintendo does get out of the home console biz, but stays in the portable console biz (which I assume they wouldn't give up since it's doing so well), is there any chance Nintendo properties could get onto other hardware? That's what I want to see happen but having a very successful portable console means they might just stick to that entirely. Unless there's a complete change in leadership, no chance in hell. As it stands, Nintendo supplying software for other platforms is about as likely as Apple deciding to ship all Macs with Windows 8 preinstalled. Now, if the Wii U continues to tank the company's fortunes, there will be real, tangible shareholder anger that they'll have to answer to. e: There's a very good chance we'll see that anger in a year's time, as I have no idea how in the hell they're expecting to meet their '9 million shipped in FY 13' target. It's almost as if they came up with that number well before the present sales numbers started trickling in, and once they did just plugged their ears and held onto the 9 million goal anyway. The Illusive Man fucked around with this message at 18:02 on May 17, 2013 |
# ? May 17, 2013 17:57 |
|
Space Racist posted:Unless there's a complete change in leadership, no chance in hell. As it stands, Nintendo supplying software for other platforms is about as likely as Apple deciding to ship all Macs with Windows 8 preinstalled.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 18:06 |
|
SirDan3k posted:The idea that all it takes is one console generation to kill off a company comes up every drat time anything isn't hitting expectations and it's almost always rooted in fanboy wish fulfillment where people who like other consoles are left crying and rending their garments in the streets begging to be let into cool kid's clubhouse. It's a combination of factors leading to the negativity over Nintendo, including lack of games, lack of profitability, poor marketing, and missing features such as decent online services. By the time they get their first-party games out, the buzz will be about the first console generation updates in eight years. It's hard not to be skeptical of the company's leadership.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 18:08 |
|
Barudak posted:There is actually some connectivity but the only example I have on hand is the terrible one with Monster Hunter 3 where the 3DS version can play online but only if your online connection is routed through a WiiU. And even that has its limitations. Your WiiU needs to have a wired connection (Which apparently requires you to purchase an adapter for the WiiU) and you can't do anything else with the WiiU while it's doing that. Why not just buy the game for the WiiU in the first place, in that case?
|
# ? May 17, 2013 18:17 |
|
Toady posted:It's a combination of factors leading to the negativity over Nintendo, including lack of games, lack of profitability, poor marketing, and missing features such as decent online services. By the time they get their first-party games out, the buzz will be about the first console generation updates in eight years. It's hard not to be skeptical of the company's leadership. People said the exact same thing about every previous Nintendo system since... christ, I remember people saying it back when the Genesis came out and Genesis Does What Nintendont. This is why this topic actually needs its own thread instead of just being something that can be reasonably discussed in the WiiU thread. There are certainly different factors in play and the WiiU is pretty unlikely to get the Wii niche, but Nintendo Is Doomed is something that tends to come more from people desperately wanting Nintendo to be doomed than actual evidence. That isn't to say that the WiiU is in great shape, because it isn't, but anyone who seriously thinks that Nintendo is going to go and start making games for other systems because they're SO DOOMED is being extremely premature. They're unlikely to get the #1 niche this upcoming generation unless the PS4 and Nextbox spectacularly poo poo the bed but that isn't the same as failing miserably. A lot is going to depend on how and when Nintendo actually decides to change their marketing for the drat thing, which will probably coincide with 'actually getting games besides New Super Mario out.' If they do that and it still fails to sell then they've got pretty serious cause to be concerned, but even then they're pretty unlikely to get out of the console biz. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:26 on May 17, 2013 |
# ? May 17, 2013 18:17 |
|
NewtGoongrich posted:Yeah I should have clarified that. I meant titles that you'll see on the shelves of stores sold at the price of a non-shovelware game. Arcade games tend to be very cheap and digitally distributed--except on Nintendo platforms where they somehow grace the shelves of stores at ridiculous prices. Holy poo poo this. How the gently caress is Tank! Tank! Tank! $60. We haven't sold a single copy of that even though is supposedly a fun game.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 18:30 |
|
Haruharuharuko posted:Holy poo poo this. How the gently caress is Tank! Tank! Tank! $60. We haven't sold a single copy of that even though is supposedly a fun game. Ha, its free now, and you pay about five or ten bucks to unlock the story mode.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 18:36 |
|
ImpAtom posted:People said the exact same thing about every previous Nintendo system since... christ, I remember people saying it back when the Genesis came out and Genesis Does What Nintendont. This is why this topic actually needs its own thread instead of just being something that can be reasonably discussed in the WiiU thread. There are certainly different factors in play and the WiiU is pretty unlikely to get the Wii niche, but Nintendo Is Doomed is something that tends to come more from people desperately wanting Nintendo to be doomed than actual evidence. Also Sega did their best work (Valkyria Chronicles, the Yakuza series, etc) after leaving the hardware biz.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 18:38 |
|
While I don't hate Nintendo, I have slowly started getting away from their games. While I was amazed by Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker and Twilight Princess bored me to tears. I don't know if it is the rigid formula but there are many games that I find hard to play by them. I guess I should have noticed something when the day I bought my Wii on launch day and actually played the Dragonball Z game way more than Twilight Princess.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 18:43 |
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-05-17-nintendo-wii-u-death-by-apathyquote:With no support from Electronic Arts, the Wii U just experienced its Dreamcast moment. Will other publishers now follow suit? edit: ihatepants fucked around with this message at 18:47 on May 17, 2013 |
|
# ? May 17, 2013 18:43 |
|
ImpAtom posted:People said the exact same thing about every previous Nintendo system since... christ, I remember people saying it back when the Genesis came out and Genesis Does What Nintendont. This is why this topic actually needs its own thread instead of just being something that can be reasonably discussed in the WiiU thread. There are certainly different factors in play and the WiiU is pretty unlikely to get the Wii niche, but Nintendo Is Doomed is something that tends to come more from people desperately wanting Nintendo to be doomed than actual evidence. Fans often cite the N64 and Gamecube to dismiss criticism of Nintendo's current position, but the situation today is entirely different. After all, I remember when Nintendo's profitability was a go-to argument back then: "Nintendo may be in last place, but they're the only one not selling at a loss!" quote:That isn't to say that the WiiU is in great shape, because it isn't, but anyone who seriously thinks that Nintendo is going to go and start making games for other systems because they're SO DOOMED is being extremely premature. I don't recall anyone saying it will happen. Just that it should or could happen if things don't turn around, following a change in leadership, of course.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 18:46 |
|
Unless something happens between now and E3 or E3 reveals something about the PS4/Next box I can't live without, I'll most likely get a Wii U in the summer. PC gaming has really turned me off from the PS3/360. I like shooters, but would rather use a mouse and keyboard than a controller. And there are also a ton of non-shooter games that have controller support, but can get pretty cheap going through Steam. But when I have friends over, 9 times out of 10 we boot up the Wii and play some Mario Kart, Boom Blocks, or Smash bros. Hell we've been on a Mario Tennis (GameCube) kick as of late. Nintendo has a lot of problems with how they handle online play, but in my opinion they beat the other consoles when comes down having people over and playing video games that almost everyone can enjoy. And even though the Wii U in at risk of being a bust, I'll most likely get my money’s worth playing it with just 4 or 5 games with my friends. Just my two cents.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 18:55 |
|
For the sake of the OP's comparison, here's Sega's 2001 announcement after having previously promised to become #1 in the console market with the Dreamcast:quote:Sega announces drastic restructuring It's interesting to note the rise in Sega's stock price after the news broke; Nintendo's stock rose 5% after that 2011 rumor of Pokemon coming to the iPhone. If Nintendo ever did go third-party, it could be up to investors to make it happen.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 18:56 |
|
Samurai Sanders posted:Yeah, that's unapologetically me, since I do like Nintendo games occasionally but have hated Nintendo hardware for a long time. They always have to be different and in a way I don't like. Also always region locked, when the rest of games is moving away from that finally. I think Nintendo games are held back by the stupid controllers and weak hardware. However, the best thing to come out of the Wii was the pointer functionality. It works brilliantly in the Metroid Prime Trilogy and Pikmin 1 & 2, even though most of those were designed with a regular controller in mind. It's even better in Metroid Prime 1 & 2, since there's no other motion bullshit, like turning handles, typing in codes or pulling the grappling beam. If there was a way to include an analogue stick on the Wii remote, and at least two extra buttons, then it would be a great controller when paired with a Nunchuck. However, as it is, it just results in games with poor camera controls and ones that require you to hit -/+ or 1/2 during gameplay, which is very uncomfortable. It's never consistent which button pauses the game either.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 19:45 |
|
ihatepants posted:edit: I hate you for making me laugh at that scene.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 19:59 |
|
|
# ? Jun 4, 2024 06:09 |
|
Haha holy poo poo.
|
# ? May 17, 2013 20:05 |