Dewgy posted:

Again, focus went from arcade style, play for five minute games to games you sit down with for a few hours. This is less of a hardware problem and more of a paradigm shift though.

NewtGoongrich posted:

You seem to be describing the shift between 3rd generation consoles (i.e. NES) to 4th generation consoles (i.e. SNES).

Dewgy posted:

Eh, I'd still say there was a pretty big shift between the PSX and PS2 era, and the Dreamcast fit awkwardly in there. Lots of arcadey titles whereas the PS2 and Xbox eventually started the "AAA" trend.

Didn't help the DC much that it got a lot of bad PSX/N64 ports, too.

Dewgy posted:

Again, focus went from arcade style, play for five minute games to games you sit down with for a few hours. This is less of a hardware problem and more of a paradigm shift though.

Prorat posted:

I used to play Resident Evil hours on end. And what about Mario 64?

Dewgy posted:

OK, and that's a counter to my original point of the Dreamcast being caught in the middle of an awkward paradigm shift... How? You're splitting hairs over the definition of AAA but not really arguing against me.

Hint: AAA wasn't really a thing until recent games with enormous budgets. Yeah it started somewhat on the PSX, but you can really only call them AAA titles retroactively, nobody was using the term then and they don't have a lot of the "thousands of people in the credits and millions of dollars on assets" aspects of modern high budget games.

SirDan3k posted:

The Dreamcast was a swan song performed by taking the mangled remains of a swan forcing air into it's one unpunctured lung with a broken bicycle-pump and expelling the air by hitting the swan with a wooden mallet. The swan is an allegory for SEGA.

NewtGoongrich posted:

The paradigm shift began with the 4th generation and was fully complete by the 5th.

Dewgy posted:

Do you have a press release or something from the paradigm to back this up or are you just being an rear end.

NewtGoongrich posted:

The "AAA" (i.e. high production value games that had 20-50 hours of content) titles of the SNES and PSX era were JRPGs produced for the Japanese market, with the North American market mostly being an afterthought. I think what you're describing is the shift in dominance in game development from Japan to the US/Canada. All "AAA" style titles cater primarily to the American market, with the Japanese market being an afterthought, or not being thought of at all.

Also, arcade style games haven't disappeared, they've just become shovelware on Nintendo platforms.

Dewgy posted:

Eh, I'd still say there was a pretty big shift between the PSX and PS2 era, and the Dreamcast fit awkwardly in there. Lots of arcadey titles whereas the PS2 and Xbox eventually started the "AAA" trend.

Didn't help the DC much that it got a lot of bad PSX/N64 ports, too.

The_Franz posted:

Most of those "AAA" developers were working their magic back in the 90s, but they tended to focus their best efforts on the PC since consoles at the time were too primitive to do what they were trying to do. It wasn't until the original Xbox landed that they started targeting controllers and the living room.

NewtGoongrich posted:

Also, arcade style games haven't disappeared, they've just become shovelware on Nintendo platforms.

NewtGoongrich posted:

Also, what do you have to back up your point about Dreamcast being caught up in a paradigm shift besides your own opinions?

Surlaw posted:

Actually a lot of arcade style games are still very good and popular and are big on PSN, XBLA, phones, and PCs in addition to being on Nintendo platforms

Prorat posted:

Can you give me some examples of games?

Dewgy posted:

Nothing because it's not exactly a peer reviewed sociological fact or any poo poo like that, but as far as I see it the Dreamcast was one of the last systems that had stuff like Sega Bass Fishing, Chu Chu Rocket, and Jet Set Radio as major hyped first party titles. All simple, repetitive, arcadey; and Sega seemed to promote third parties to make similar titles as much as possible. I noticed that dropping off a lot after the Dreamcast, but hey, maybe I'm just crazy.

Prorat posted:

Can you give me some examples of games?

Argas posted:

This is a bit of a derail but it feels like the 3DS is rather lacking in some features. There's no account system for it and there's no real incentive to get a Wii U if you have a 3DS, and vice-versa. I mean, the PS Vita is touted to have connectivity with the PS4 and we have no idea how that'll turn out, but at least Sony is giving it a shot. 3DS and Wii U? They might as well not even be from the same company. Of course, the lack of a second stick is part of this too. Nintendo could've added a second stick to the 3DS XL but they didn't and the result is that if there is future Wii U-3DS connectivity, people will have to buy the CCP.

NonzeroCircle posted:

For me, Nintendo's post Gamecube hardware has seemed more like incremental updates, for example DS>DS Lite>DSi>3DS, and comes across like the endless slew of Smartphone model updates that add a bit more functionality rather than a whole new product. The leap from NES to SNES to N64 was fairly tangible each time, but the last decade or so has been more like variations on a theme, and that theme has often been weird 'innovative' controls, which hold little appeal to me. I'd rather a normal controller (only 2 prongs please!) and effort into making decent games that will work with anyone's out-the-box setup, without having to buy Nunchucks and god knows what else to attain full functionality.

Samurai Sanders posted:

If Nintendo does get out of the home console biz, but stays in the portable console biz (which I assume they wouldn't give up since it's doing so well), is there any chance Nintendo properties could get onto other hardware? That's what I want to see happen but having a very successful portable console means they might just stick to that entirely.

Space Racist posted:

Unless there's a complete change in leadership, no chance in hell. As it stands, Nintendo supplying software for other platforms is about as likely as Apple deciding to ship all Macs with Windows 8 preinstalled.

SirDan3k posted:

The idea that all it takes is one console generation to kill off a company comes up every drat time anything isn't hitting expectations and it's almost always rooted in fanboy wish fulfillment where people who like other consoles are left crying and rending their garments in the streets begging to be let into cool kid's clubhouse.

Barudak posted:

There is actually some connectivity but the only example I have on hand is the terrible one with Monster Hunter 3 where the 3DS version can play online but only if your online connection is routed through a WiiU.

Toady posted:

It's a combination of factors leading to the negativity over Nintendo, including lack of games, lack of profitability, poor marketing, and missing features such as decent online services. By the time they get their first-party games out, the buzz will be about the first console generation updates in eight years. It's hard not to be skeptical of the company's leadership.

NewtGoongrich posted:

Yeah I should have clarified that. I meant titles that you'll see on the shelves of stores sold at the price of a non-shovelware game. Arcade games tend to be very cheap and digitally distributed--except on Nintendo platforms where they somehow grace the shelves of stores at ridiculous prices.

Haruharuharuko posted:

Holy poo poo this. How the gently caress is Tank! Tank! Tank! $60. We haven't sold a single copy of that even though is supposedly a fun game.

ImpAtom posted:

People said the exact same thing about every previous Nintendo system since... christ, I remember people saying it back when the Genesis came out and Genesis Does What Nintendont. This is why this topic actually needs its own thread instead of just being something that can be reasonably discussed in the WiiU thread. There are certainly different factors in play and the WiiU is pretty unlikely to get the Wii niche, but Nintendo Is Doomed is something that tends to come more from people desperately wanting Nintendo to be doomed than actual evidence.

That isn't to say that the WiiU is in great shape, because it isn't, but anyone who seriously thinks that Nintendo is going to go and start making games for other systems because they're SO DOOMED is being extremely premature. They're unlikely to get the #1 niche this upcoming generation unless the PS4 and Nextbox spectacularly poo poo the bed but that isn't the same as failing miserably. A lot is going to depend on how and when Nintendo actually decides to change their marketing for the drat thing, which will probably coincide with 'actually getting games besides New Super Mario out.' If they do that and it still fails to sell then they've got pretty serious cause to be concerned, but even then they're pretty unlikely to get out of the console biz.

quote:

With no support from Electronic Arts, the Wii U just experienced its Dreamcast moment. Will other publishers now follow suit?

The Wii U just had its Dreamcast moment. With Electronic Arts confirming it doesn't have any games in development for the machine, one of the console industry's biggest players has walked away from the system counting its losses.
...
But EA has pulled out of the Wii U because sales of both hardware and software are dreadful. We're not officially allowed to report sales numbers from Chart Track in the UK but everyone in the publishing business can see them quite clearly. There's no need for pretence. When you can get to number one in the Wii U charts by selling less than 1000 units it's no longer a tragedy, it's an actual farce.

It's not much better in the all-formats chart. Staying at number one in the charts for a second week isn't so much a sign of success, as a sign you're not selling as poorly as everyone else in the top ten. The top ten isn't relevant any more, last year it was only really the top five that counted.
...
The Wii U has been defeated by the most humbling of challengers - consumer apathy. When the inevitable "Nintendo halts Wii U production" stories hit, the majority of those that bought the original Wii won't even notice. The mainstream bought the Wii because it was a fun novelty, they didn't buy it for a new Zelda game. What's the Wii U's novelty? That it does everything a current-gen console does but a little bit slower and with a Fisher Price tablet attached?

Retailers have given up on the Wii U. It's not discounted at the supermarkets because they want to sell more, it's been cut in price so they can get rid of it quickly. Software drives hardware sales. But there are no credible software sales because there are no games being released. Retail is desperate to sell anything, that's why GAME is now selling sci-fi and fantasy books and HMV has cans of Coke and sweets at the till - anything to squeeze a penny out. They aren't going to sit around and make space for a handful of Wii U games near the end of the year. They'll be pushing the Wii U to one side to make more space for the Xbox 360, the PlayStation 3 and hopefully the PS4 and next Xbox.
...
Nintendo can't compete with Microsoft and Sony, that's why they've pulled out of the E3 pissing contest. That's almost a dignified admission of defeat. If Nintendo shows off new Starfox, Zelda, Mario and Blast Corps titles next month in L.A. it's only going to be preaching to the converted. They will be drowned out by the bombast and great swinging balls of their rivals. What will the LA Times, Reuters, the BBC, Tech Crunch, Joystiq, VentureBeat, GamesIndustry International, Gamasutra and the rest of the media be prioritising during E3? Anything that can lift the console business up off its knees and give it an adrenaline shot. That's the real story here, and the Wii U is a boxout of what went wrong.

There's also today's announcement that Sega is handing publishing duties of Sonic the Hedgehog over to Nintendo, like Sonic the Hedgehog still means something to the games player. It doesn't, it's a tired old mascot who jumped the shark when Sega painted him black and gave him a gun.
...
The new GameCube or the new Dreamcast, it doesn't matter how we hang it. The console market is brutal and Microsoft and Sony may have also left it too late with their own machines, only time will tell. But when Nintendo isn't playing the console wars game, the consumers don't care and the retailer is pushing new hardware to the curb, what are publishers meant to do? There's no EA support now, will Ubisoft be next? Tellingly, Activision hasn't mentioned "Call of Duty: Ghosts" in the same sentence as "Wii U", and as that game is going to be a centrepiece of the next Xbox reveal it's not likely to associate it with a device that isn't generating any excitement. Will these publishers bother with exclusive titles, or even porting existing games with a little touchpad tweak when they're not seeing support anywhere else?

The only sensible move is for Nintendo to take its brands to other formats, but that's an argument we've had so many times. As Rob Fahey argued a few weeks ago, Nintendo can afford to have a failed console around its neck, but it can't afford to damage its most valuable assets, its IP.

ImpAtom posted:

People said the exact same thing about every previous Nintendo system since... christ, I remember people saying it back when the Genesis came out and Genesis Does What Nintendont. This is why this topic actually needs its own thread instead of just being something that can be reasonably discussed in the WiiU thread. There are certainly different factors in play and the WiiU is pretty unlikely to get the Wii niche, but Nintendo Is Doomed is something that tends to come more from people desperately wanting Nintendo to be doomed than actual evidence.

quote:

That isn't to say that the WiiU is in great shape, because it isn't, but anyone who seriously thinks that Nintendo is going to go and start making games for other systems because they're SO DOOMED is being extremely premature.

quote:

Sega announces drastic restructuring

January 31, 2001 11:40AM PST
By Shahed Ahmed

Sega of America announces that it plans to become a third-party publisher and drops the Dreamcast price to $99.95.

Sega of America has officially announced a drastic restructuring strategy to become a multiplatform third-party software publisher. The company also confirmed a drop in the price of its Dreamcast console from its current $149.95 price point to $99.95. Additionally, as part of its three-tier business strategy, the company will focus its resources on the network gaming arena and on becoming a technology architecture provider of the Dreamcast chipset technology to a broad range of devices. The company announced today that it will provide software to Palm handheld devices, and it recently confirmed that the DC chip will be integrated into an upcoming line of set-top boxes from European firm Pace Micro Technology.

"Sega is a company that has always dared to innovate and push this industry forward," said Peter Moore, president and CEO of Sega of America. "Sega will continue to do so with its new strategy, and the result for consumers will be what you would always expect from a rules breaker like Sega--a library of pioneering, jaw-dropping content now available any way you want to play."

The Dreamcast price drop will become effective on February 4 in North America. As expected, production of the Dreamcast console will be discontinued on March 31. Sega is making the change in an attempt to expedite its exit from the hardware business, though the company will continue to support the console with more than 30 first-party games scheduled for release this year. The company expects to have a 4 million unit installed base in North America and an installed base of more than 8 million units in Japan.

Sega's stock has risen nearly 70 percent over the past several days since news regarding its restructuring strategy broke. The company has received an additional cash infusion through a personal donation of $730 million from CSK chairman, Isao Okawa.

Samurai Sanders posted:

Yeah, that's unapologetically me, since I do like Nintendo games occasionally but have hated Nintendo hardware for a long time. They always have to be different and in a way I don't like. Also always region locked, when the rest of games is moving away from that finally.

ihatepants posted:

edit:

ihatepants posted: