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I had the afternoon to myself so I decided to dust off my old copy of Game of Thrones and give it a second try now that I've fully fallen in love with the show. I tried to read it five years ago, but back then coming in blind I was not prepared for all the incestuous shenanigans and weird Viserys nipple-twisting so I stopped after a hundred pages or so. Now that I can put faces to names (and know how to pronounce them!) I am enjoying it so much more. I had forgotten how young everyone is compared to the show. In the first chapter they say Ned Stark is only 35 and all the kids are half the age of their TV counterparts. The fact that Dany is only 13 makes her brother's fondling so much more  I'm trying to catch up with the thread, which shouldn't take me more than a week or two. This should be fun 
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May 8, 2013 02:40
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Evil Fluffy posted:And the only way for that to happen is for a king to give them recognition, as happens later in the series and is offered (then turned down) in one particular case. It also means that only Robert (or now Stannis) could legitimize Joffery and even then it would only be to make him a Lannister. I imagine that Tywin would sooner make Tyrion his heir than admit to and acknowledge his kids loving each other and that his grandchilden are all the result of incest. The bit in ACoK is vague on this, so ok.
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May 8, 2013 09:46
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House Louse posted:The bit in ACoK is vague on this, so ok. How is it vague? Stannis goes over the entire scenario in practically every scene he has, it seems like. Can you pull some quotes out of the book that you find confusing w/r/t bastardry, royal legitimization, whether Joffrey is a legit inheritant, etc?
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May 8, 2013 11:06
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regulargonzalez posted:How is it vague? Stannis goes over the entire scenario in practically every scene he has, it seems like. Can you pull some quotes out of the book that you find confusing w/r/t bastardry, royal legitimization, whether Joffrey is a legit inheritant, etc? "Vague" about bastardry and legitimisation, not Joffrey in particular. It's ACoK p230; Bran, Ser Rodrik, and Maester Luwin are discussing an heir for Lord Hornwood. Bran suggests that his bastard be the heir, and Luwin says they have to consider it as there's no alternative. Nothing about how to legitimise or even if it's necessary; they make it sound as if they can just pick someone and drop him into place. I apologise to anyone who thinks this tangent is a threadshit, by the way, but at least I'm not  about the names, or magic, or why they use galleys...
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May 8, 2013 20:59
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House Louse posted:"Vague" about bastardry and legitimisation, not Joffrey in particular. It's ACoK p230; Bran, Ser Rodrik, and Maester Luwin are discussing an heir for Lord Hornwood. Bran suggests that his bastard be the heir, and Luwin says they have to consider it as there's no alternative. Nothing about how to legitimise or even if it's necessary; they make it sound as if they can just pick someone and drop him into place. GRRM addressed this specifically (and inheritance generally) here: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1053/ No spoilers from anything after ACOK. e: But there are possible spoilers in the right sidebar where it lists Forum topics, so try to stick just to the main text. Actually I'll just post it here to avoid any problems quote:The Hornwood Inheritance and the Whents regulargonzalez fucked around with this message at 02:46 on May 9, 2013 |
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May 9, 2013 02:32
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Is it just me or does everyone cry all day and night in this book. I'm up to date on the show, how far is the show into the books?
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May 10, 2013 03:08
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I find the whole bastard lineage interesting considering it's rumored that a Wildling was the father of the Starks at some point (continuing the blood of first men) and hence the Blue Rose
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May 10, 2013 03:26
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regulargonzalez posted:GRRM addressed this specifically (and inheritance generally) here: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1053/ Thanks, that shuts me up!
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May 10, 2013 09:29
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A Saucy Bratwurst posted:Is it just me or does everyone cry all day and night in this book. I'm up to date on the show, how far is the show into the books? There's not a 1:1 correlation to the books. In most places, the show is about 35-40% of the way into book 3, but it has changed some storylines, compressed multiple characters into one, invented characters, taken a storyline out of book 5 and advanced it, largely left out at least one side story (with featured scenes in books 1 and 2) that most book readers consider incredibly important and significant, and so on. But as a very rough rule of thumb, Season 3 of the show will be about the first 60% of book 3.
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May 10, 2013 09:43
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I'd add as well that if you're thinking of starting reading from where the show is up to - don't. An awful lot of stuff will make absolutely no sense if you do!
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May 10, 2013 13:53
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An awful lot of stuff won't make sense either way. 
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May 11, 2013 01:16
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regulargonzalez posted:largely left out at least one side story (with featured scenes in books 1 and 2) that most book readers consider incredibly important and significant, and so on. Which one was that? Tower of Joy related stuff?
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May 11, 2013 03:24
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TOOT BOOT posted:Which one was that? Tower of Joy related stuff? Yeah plus House of the Undying
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May 11, 2013 04:05
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After watching two and a half seasons of Game of Thrones, I decided that it was time to jump into the books as well. The one regret I have is that I didn't take my friend's recommendation sooner. Read just over one fourth of A Game of Thrones by now, and there's something about GRRM's prose that just makes you want to keep reading and reading. The guy sure knows how to build momentum. Also, for some reason I found certain characters (like Bran, Sansa and Dany) completely uninteresting or downright annoying in the series. But in the book I have yet to feel the same about any of them. Their chapters are all just as interesting as the rest. ulvir fucked around with this message at 23:26 on May 11, 2013 |
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May 11, 2013 23:13
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I can't say for Bran but the less I hear about or from Sansa's perspective the better. Dany seems to me to have a particularly good perspective and a lot of that is missed in the series because there's no monologue so it's much harder to get a sense for why she's doing things. I feel that she comes across as petulant rather than determined, for example. She's supposed to be naive but in the series she seems stupid rather than desperate when she takes chances. But I'm only halfway through season 2 in the series.
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May 12, 2013 00:02
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Sansa definitely starts out dumb as hell but that's the point. At the start she's an ignorant-as-hell Proper Noblewoman and believes all the stories about heroes and princes saving the day. Over the first two books she learns that's not even close to true. In the 3rd book she's starting to become away of the game, and in the 4th she's basically being told how to play it as well as being informed how she's (supposedly) being maneuvered in to a marriage with Robert Arynn's heir, and that once the boy's dead the marriage will mean the north and east powers are directly married and any kids Sansa has with the guy would be heirs to Winterfell and/or the Vale. Although Littlefinger seems to want Sansa himself since she's basically mini-Cat and he's (still) obsessed with Cat which will probably be his downfall. edit: might want to skip over this if you're not through the books yet. Evil Fluffy fucked around with this message at 23:06 on May 14, 2013 |
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May 12, 2013 01:52
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ulvir posted:After watching two and a half seasons of Game of Thrones, I decided that it was time to jump into the books as well. The one regret I have is that I didn't take my friend's recommendation sooner. Read just over one fourth of A Game of Thrones by now, and there's something about GRRM's prose that just makes you want to keep reading and reading. The guy sure knows how to build momentum. I'm not reading that spoiler above but I hope Sansa turns into mini Cersei minus the incest, she's so stereotypically airheaded right now in the series and books (atleast where I'm up to)
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May 13, 2013 03:31
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Yeah I kinda feel like Evil Fluffy's post was just mean, starts out with easy book 1 spoilers and jumps straight to the guts of book 4, i mean it's got a bit of a warning in there but be careful if you're just starting out in the series. As you should be of all spoilers, but especially un-marked ones.
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May 13, 2013 12:49
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So I'm currently rereading ADWD and just noticed that every Stark man who chops off someone's head as punishment for treason (acting as judge, jury and executioner) in one of the books, later gets killed himself in that same book. Ned beheads Gared the deserter in AGOT, later gets beheaded himself. Robb beheads Rickard Karstark in ASOS, later gets killed at the Red Wedding. Jon beheads Janos Slynt in ADWD, later gets stabbed to death by some of his other underlings. Going by this pattern, we can probably expect cannibal king Rickon to follow in their footsteps in ADOS (the next odd-numbered book) and suffer the same fate. Because that, as GRRM seems to be telling us, is what it means to be a Stark man and put in a leadership position. Behead and be dead.
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May 19, 2013 19:30
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Joramun posted:Jon beheads Janos Slynt in ADWD, later gets stabbed to death by some of his other underlings. We don't have confirmation that Jon's dead...just in a very uncomfortable situation. Besides, other major character deaths were obvious, while this one was left ambiguous (As ambiguous as getting stabbed multiple times can get).
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May 20, 2013 22:54
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Lycaeon posted:We don't have confirmation that Jon's dead...just in a very uncomfortable situation. Besides, other major character deaths were obvious, while this one was left ambiguous (As ambiguous as getting stabbed multiple times can get). While I think his death in this situation would be just kind of dumb and a let down, it does mention him not even feeling the 4th knife once he was on the cold ground which implies he was already dead/moved to Ghost's body. It also sticks to the recurring theme of "Starks taking the noble route instead of the proper one and dying due to it" since all 3 of them could've easily made a more tactical decision and come out on top. But they don't because they're noble to a fault which even Littlefinger mentions at some point iirc. Regardless of the outcome for Jon the area is almost certain to turn in to a bloodbath; especially if Bolton wasn't bullshitting in his letter about having killed Stannis since the Watch will not only want to be rid of the Wildlings in the worst way, but also now have to worry about a batshit crazy guy coming north to kill them for working with Stannis. Having Jon survive due to quick actions like Wun Wun and/or Wildlings rushing the guys that attacked Jon and getting him to someone that can help (Melissandre) is possible but GRRM was never really one for "it all worked out in the end" kind of stuff in these books. Evil Fluffy fucked around with this message at 00:23 on May 21, 2013 |
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May 21, 2013 00:19
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It's pretty much confirmed that Bolton's letter is a lie (Except for the part about capturing Mance), given that Theon actually made it to Stannis' camp and would have been captured again had Stannis been defeated. Also the camp itself is quite distant from Winterfell, and concealed in the storm. You may be right about Jon, but I'm not a fan of railroading him into the doomed honorable Stark role. He's a bastard, and should have a different path from that of his family. It's GRRM we're talking about though, so I'm not optimistic. 
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May 21, 2013 00:29
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Lycaeon posted:It's pretty much confirmed that Bolton's letter is a lie (Except for the part about capturing Mance), given that Theon actually made it to Stannis' camp and would have been captured again had Stannis been defeated. Also the camp itself is quite distant from Winterfell, and concealed in the storm. Yeah, this puts the credibility of the letters contents into question, though Theon and Jeyne could have conceivably gone running off while the supposed seven day battle took place. All in all I've started disregarding major off screen deaths where heads end up on spikes above city gates. So far we have Theon doing this with Bran and Rickon and then Manderly doing it with Davos, wouldn't surprise me much if it happened a third time.
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May 21, 2013 09:37
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cafel posted:Yeah, this puts the credibility of the letters contents into question, though Theon and Jeyne could have conceivably gone running off while the supposed seven day battle took place. All in all I've started disregarding major off screen deaths where heads end up on spikes above city gates. So far we have Theon doing this with Bran and Rickon and then Manderly doing it with Davos, wouldn't surprise me much if it happened a third time. Theon's handling of Bran and Rickon raised immediate flags because there's no mention of the dire wolves in any way, plus the way he discusses matters with Reek (skinning/making them unrecognizable) at the time made it really clear that the whole thing was a farce. That he managed to pull it off at all was likely due to the Ironborn being ignorant of the situation with how close the kids are to their Direwolves and being able to get away with it as a result. I don't think it's implausible for Theon, Jeyne, and possibly others to have escaped prior to or during the battle in the snow. It would also explain why Bolton sent the letter to the Wall demanding their return; after Stannis was dealt with the others couldn't be found so they must have been sent to the Wall and Jon's protection. Honestly I kind of hope Stannis is dead as he was just so painfully bland. Having him dead also puts Davos in a really interesting spot if he manages to get back to White Harbor with Rickon and Shaggydog since the man he swore service to and took the risk for is now dead and by recovering a male heir he just hosed the Boltons out of any claim to Winterfell because nobody's going to doubt it's Rickon if he has a direwolf with him. No direwolf will make things more complicated though since he could just be some little kid then.
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May 21, 2013 21:48
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Evil Fluffy posted:Theon's handling of Bran and Rickon raised immediate flags because there's no mention of the dire wolves in any way, plus the way he discusses matters with Reek (skinning/making them unrecognizable) at the time made it really clear that the whole thing was a farce. That he managed to pull it off at all was likely due to the Ironborn being ignorant of the situation with how close the kids are to their Direwolves and being able to get away with it as a result. Apparently the most obvious indication that its a forgery, is that Ramsay HATED the word "bastard" when referring to anything not just himself
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May 21, 2013 23:37
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CatchrNdRy posted:Apparently the most obvious indication that its a forgery, is that Ramsay HATED the word "bastard" when referring to anything not just himself There's about a four or five tells in the Pink Letter that suggests it is a forgery and that the letter isn't from Ramsay - The letter isn't written in blood. The letter Asha receives in The Wayward Bride is written in the blood of the Ironborn. If Ramsay had flayed the spearwives as the letter suggests, why would he not use the blood like he did when he flayed the Ironborn? - The letter does not contain a piece of flayed skin. Flayed skin appears to be Ramsay's calling card, since the letter he sends to Roose in ASOS and the letter he sends to Asha in ADWD both contain Theon's flayed skin. Again, he allegedly flayed the spearwives, why not include pieces of their skin? - Ramsay's writing is lovely because he learned to write as an adult (Asha notes her letter is written in rough spiky hand). Jon does not notice anything amiss with the handwriting in the Pink Letter. - The Pink Letter's seal is closed with a "smear of pink wax". If the letter was from Ramsay he would have used an official Bolton stamp because he has a hard on for the pride of his House. (TWOW Spoiler) - The Pink Letter quotes something Theon tells Stannis in the TWOW preview chapter. Theon tell Stannis that Ramsay will "want his Reek back", the Pink letter says exactly that. With Theon and Asha as his prisoners, Stannis is in the best position to produce a credible forgery.
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May 22, 2013 00:01
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In It For The Tank posted:There's about a four or five tells in the Pink Letter that suggests it is a forgery and that the letter isn't from Ramsay Why would Stannis forge such a letter? The only reason I can think of is to try and con Jon Snow into bringing the Night's Watch down to Winterfell so that Stannis can have some additional troops. It seems out of character for Stannis to attempt something so deceitful. Ginette Reno fucked around with this message at 09:25 on May 22, 2013 |
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May 22, 2013 09:18
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Vigilance posted:Why would Stannis forge such a letter? The only reason I can think of is to try and con Jon Snow into bringing the Night's Watch down to Winterfell so that Stannis can have some additional troops. It seems out of character for Stannis to attempt something so deceitful. Desperate times calls for desperate measures. Stannis was willing to burn Edric Storm after Meliandre "proved" her power with the leech ritual, in the middle of a prolonged siege in the middle of a blizzard he might be willing to lie.
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May 22, 2013 20:33
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Vigilance posted:Why would Stannis forge such a letter? The only reason I can think of is to try and con Jon Snow into bringing the Night's Watch down to Winterfell so that Stannis can have some additional troops. It seems out of character for Stannis to attempt something so deceitful.
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May 23, 2013 00:54
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So I just finished ASOS. Oh my. I managed to stay unspoiled for mostly everything and man definitely didn't disappoint. My question for you book readers, I hope I am posting in the right thread, I just started AFFC and man I am having a really really hard time staying interested. Maybe it's because of the high ASOS left me on and sent me right into chapters of characters I wasn't familiar with? Anyways, is this common feeling and I guess my main question is will this book get better or am I going to have to grind out 1000+ pages to get to the good stuff?
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May 23, 2013 04:24
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I'm trying to get a copy of ADWD in paperback, I live in the US. I've done multiple SA searches for any discussion on this but can't seem to land an answer, so sorry if it's popped up before. What is the current best way to get the book in paperback? Do I have to buy the separate two-parter for book 5, or is there somewhere else I can get it? For the record I'm looking for a mass market paperback (smaller size) to match the rest. Sources seem to indicate that it's available outside the US somewhere, but I'm looking for a reliable location to order from. Thanks!
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May 23, 2013 04:38
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SAMB0 posted:So I just finished ASOS. Oh my. I managed to stay unspoiled for mostly everything and man definitely didn't disappoint. My question for you book readers, I hope I am posting in the right thread, I just started AFFC and man I am having a really really hard time staying interested. Maybe it's because of the high ASOS left me on and sent me right into chapters of characters I wasn't familiar with? Anyways, is this common feeling and I guess my main question is will this book get better or am I going to have to grind out 1000+ pages to get to the good stuff? You might want to look up This reading order for the books. It works much better than AFFC on its own.
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May 23, 2013 04:40
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whowhatwhere posted:You might want to look up This reading order for the books. It works much better than AFFC on its own. Awesome. This may make me not pull my hair out. Thank you!
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May 23, 2013 04:57
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whowhatwhere posted:You might want to look up This reading order for the books. It works much better than AFFC on its own. Goddammit, I wish I had this list when I started the series. 
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May 23, 2013 05:17
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SAMB0 posted:Awesome. This may make me not pull my hair out. Thank you! AFFC isn't bad by any means (well I thought initial Ironmen chapters sort of were boring), it just is paced completely differently. Its more episodic in nature rather than serial and cliffhangery. But I am also big Brienne fan, and I know many aren't.
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May 23, 2013 08:49
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I really wouldn't read it in that AFFC/ADWD listing. AFFC has a different focus to the prior three books, it's more about world building than the characters themselves and it picks up a lot more in the end. ADWD and AFFC were not written to be read with chapters interchanging with each other and if you think the pacing is off now, it'll be way worse that way.
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May 23, 2013 11:13
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Aurain posted:I really wouldn't read it in that AFFC/ADWD listing. What? Yes they were. They're originally the same book just split in half, and it shows in that the reading order provided lists the chapters mostly chronologically preserving all reveals as they were meant to happen. The reading order improves both novels dramatically.
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May 23, 2013 19:08
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Except they're not the same book and were rewritten to be separate volumes because it did not work as a single book, for various reasons. This is the entire point of why AFFC and ADWD aren't one book. A Feast for Crows was written to be read as a single instalment of ASOIAF and ADWD was too. I'm not saying that a combined read is inferior to it or without merit, but it's not at all the best way to read it for the first time. If GRRM had intended for AFFC and ADWD to be spliced, he'd have released an official ordering to do it, or a combined novel where the chapter orderings are 100% correct and beyond reasoning.
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May 23, 2013 19:38
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Aurain posted:Except they're not the same book and were rewritten to be separate volumes because it did not work as a single book, for various reasons. This is the entire point of why AFFC and ADWD aren't one book. A Feast for Crows was written to be read as a single instalment of ASOIAF and ADWD was too. The main reason the book was split was due to size. AFFC and ADWD were originally intended as one book, which is why about 600 pages of ADWD run concurrently with AFFC. It wasn't that they didn't "work" as a single novel, but that combined it would be impossible to publish. GRRM settled, then, to split the original one novel along geographic lines, resulting in what we have now.
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May 23, 2013 19:50
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But that's not the whole story because ADWD took another 5+ years to come out.
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May 23, 2013 22:13
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