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Victor Mair, a general Cool Guy with interesting things to say about China and the Chinese language in particular, had a nice take on the incident: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4637 That said, while I generally agree that the student was being dumb and overreacting, having actually watched the video, Biden's tone seemed a shade over the top. Also "American" food is bad, but in a big city it really isn't that hard to get non-bland food.
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May 23, 2013 16:08
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ryan8723 posted:Coming from an environmental engineering background, I can honestly say that China has a looming ecological disaster that will make everything in the world look like the garden of Eden. Even if they did perfect everything and went all out, there are still a billion+ people living in an area that can't support a billion people. They don't have enough resources to keep that kind of population going, which means they have to rape the land to continue. So when should all us expats leave to avoid the anti-everything riots?
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May 23, 2013 16:14
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Baby formula news. Looks like now that HK has cracked down, people are moving on to Singapore. http://singaporeseen.stomp.com.sg/stomp/sgseen/this_urban_jungle/1799452/chinese_parents_pay_up_to_200_for_milk_powder_from_singapore.html quote:Parents from China are willing to buy milk powder from Singapore at a premium and shipping it back to their country, following a series of food safety scandals.
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May 23, 2013 16:14
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Honestly who can blame them? When you find out baby food* has poison in it, you're not going to buy the poison for your baby. *if you've been told your whole life that baby food comes from a factory and your boobs will get all weird if you even think about breastfeeding
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May 23, 2013 16:16
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dilbertschalter posted:Victor Mair, a general Cool Guy with interesting things to say about China and the Chinese language in particular, had a nice take on the incident: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4637 Why is he putting it in pinyin? That is so damned annoying. Also 100 some years later, we can stop talking about where those loan words came from and how they're not native China words or blablabla. drat, a year is enough to make a word, those words are all Chinese completely and totally now. It's an interesting thing to note, but it doesn't explain that kid's attitude, ie, the kid was nitpicking because he was offended. The origin of the word nation is not relevant. Everyone in China uses it with the same flexibility as the English word. Barto fucked around with this message at 16:41 on May 23, 2013 |
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May 23, 2013 16:33
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Arglebargle III posted:So when should all us expats leave to avoid the anti-everything riots? Honestly? Now. The pollution in some areas is so bad that I can't imagine it continuing like it has for much longer. I guess it all depends on how tolerant you are of breathing in dangerous quantities of PM2.5 or running out of water. China is still massively expanding industry so it's only going to get worse.
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May 23, 2013 16:35
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Barto posted:Why is he putting it in pinyin? That is so damned annoying. Well, given that in the actual original post the student goes on about the difference between nation and country and gives a couple examples as "proof," he regards it is an important/significant distinction, even if he is just using that as an excuse to be angry about other things stated in the speech (certainly possible). Reading that post gives the impression of misunderstanding, so I'm not quite so sure why you're so quick to dismiss that based on things that are not related to this actual incident.
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May 23, 2013 16:51
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dilbertschalter posted:Well, given that in the actual original post the student goes on about the difference between nation and country and gives a couple examples as "proof," he regards it is an important/significant distinction, even if he is just using that as an excuse to be angry about other things stated in the speech (certainly possible). Reading that post gives the impression of misunderstanding, so I'm not quite so sure why you're so quick to dismiss that based on things that are not related to this actual incident. It's just like people in SA sometimes go off the rails on definitions about words (while normal people just go about their day using them normally). The kid is just sperging and has no point. Biden's usage wouldn't bother anyone in China and like a lot of comments on that guy's blog post say, the Chinese media also uses the words interchangeably. I was just tut-tuting the dude's masturbatory attempt to bring etymology into it- like Chinese people were confused about the concepts because their words for 'em were borrowed via Japan a century ago. This is a purely White Guy Talking About China Thing. Chinese people know what they mean. Or don't mean. They play as fast and loose with the words as we do in English. Which just goes back to the point, the kid was being dumb. Barto fucked around with this message at 17:27 on May 23, 2013 |
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May 23, 2013 17:24
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Arglebargle III posted:I have this suspicion that Chinese students in the U.S. who tend to dismiss American food as tasteless are the ones who never go anywhere except the cafeteria. I know a lot of people that rarely left campus and I feel like the Chinese (especially male) students are a big portion of them. I have heard people complain about American food and when they give examples it's nearly all cafeteria food, and when I meet Chinese people in China who have been to America and are like I LOVE MEXICAN FOOD AAA (because they can't get it in China) they tend to be extroverts who I could see going around to actual restaurants with friends on a regular basis. It's also down to cultural preferences in taste. Here's an article about a bunch of Chinese chefs dining at the French Laundry and not really enjoying themselves.
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May 23, 2013 17:53
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Living in NY, the fad for the last few years has been a rivival of Americana food. I see joints opening up all the time focusing on what would be stereotypically American food and really doing a great job with it (whether cultural fusion style or just making it tastier with better/different local ingredients). I mean, granted it's a mostly Hipster led food movement, but hey, what's more American than hipsters.
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May 23, 2013 18:08
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gret posted:It's also down to cultural preferences in taste. Here's an article about a bunch of Chinese chefs dining at the French Laundry and not really enjoying themselves. Also not being able to smoke in there probably cheesed them off.
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May 23, 2013 18:16
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Where I live there's a ton of foreign students from China and I can confirm that a lot of them never leave campus. Student resources also gets tons of reports of odd behavior and depression. They basically go into culture-shock and just hide in their dorm room and focus 100% on their studies and the best the school can do is sort of keep an eye on them and hope they don't snap. Even other chinese students think they are weird. It's also mostly the chinese students. Koreans, Japanese, Mexicans, they all get out and go into town and have fun but there's this weird phenomenon of mostly chinese kids that just bunker down in their dorm while developing a seething hatred of all things "western". They'll survive on lovely university food and often refuse to even leave the campus to go to one of the "asian" supermarkets to get food from home. From what my neighbour's chinese students tell me these sort will only barely make friends with other chinese students with the same mindset as them and all they do on their limited social time is sit around bitching about how awful the school is, how stinky and rude and stupid white people are, and how racist and unfair and unqualified their teachers are. Of the international students who fall into this it's like 90% Chinese and 99% male. Oh they also apparently get crazy bitter about not having a girlfriend and of course blame it all on "the west". What could be causing this to such an extent vs students from other cultures?
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May 23, 2013 18:31
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I think it's their social background. Only pretty rich Chinese parents can send their kids to the West, right?
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May 23, 2013 18:41
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It's also probably their intense academic background. They may be smart, but immature because they did not have enough time yet to develop coping mechanisms or even a realistic view of the world. It happens to Americans who go overseas also, but it's probably worse for Chinese students because having to study 24/7 for all of their lives doesn't leave time to develop other important aspects of their personality.
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May 23, 2013 19:06
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Baronjutter posted:Where I live there's a ton of foreign students from China and I can confirm that a lot of them never leave campus. Student resources also gets tons of reports of odd behavior and depression. They basically go into culture-shock and just hide in their dorm room and focus 100% on their studies and the best the school can do is sort of keep an eye on them and hope they don't snap. My GF is a Chinese student here on study. Of the two big international schools here, the biggest is also a Christian school. She has explained to me before that, as far as her experience goes, there are many "more conservative" Chinese students who don't understand American "openness" (bourgeois/liberalism). I think stereotypes compound that. Her room mate and her room mates Chinese boyfriend rent hotel rooms so they can spend the evening together, but both maintain that they are virgins. They recently suffered a prank where an American student discovered their weekend trysts and wrote up an official looking letter admonishing the two for having pre marital sexual intercourse, which is against the college's rules of conduct, and that the two must report to a meeting about their status as students. She also mentioned that many of her female friends often fall prey to womanizers and sexual predators. There are also money scams and pyramid schemes. In the course of helping my GF find a job we've encountered plenty of Vector Inc like bullshitters passing themselves off as medical and tech companies in the aim to take advantage of the language barrier. I imagine all of this gets back to families back home and perpetuates. This is all in Jackson MS. I apologize to everyone for MS being a cultural shithole. Zuhzuhzombie!! fucked around with this message at 19:27 on May 23, 2013 |
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May 23, 2013 19:24
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I hate to interrupt foodchat, because it's pretty interesting, but I've been reading a pretty cool/interesting history textbook I randomly ordered offline about Chinese impressions of the U.S. from before 1949. It's basically a translated collection of the personal diaries/writings of Chinese diplomats from when they were in the United States (since, according to the authors of the textbook, pretty much nothing survives from non diplomatic sources like railroad workers). They're really interesting and there's several about family life and gender relations, and one really good one about a Chinese diplomat in the Jim Crow south (where he was treated like a white guy!). I just thought I'd drop in and reccomend it since I barely know anything about China and I've found it pretty riveting, so all you seasoned China watchers might get more of a kick out of it. http://www.amazon.com/Land-Without-Ghosts-Impressions-Mid-Nineteenth/dp/0520084241 "Land Without Ghosts" Frog Act fucked around with this message at 20:03 on May 23, 2013 |
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May 23, 2013 20:00
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Sweet. Gonna put that on my list. I've loaned the girlfriend Madam Mao and Kissinger on China so far.
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May 23, 2013 20:02
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Arglebargle III posted:Honestly who can blame them? When you find out baby food* has poison in it, you're not going to buy the poison for your baby. Is this message a result of the formula industry pushing that narrative or something with deeper cultural roots? Is the Chinese equivalent of the Center for Disease Control doing any thing to increase and prolong breast feeding in the population? It can be pretty important to an infants long term health and development.
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May 23, 2013 22:16
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cafel posted:Is this message a result of the formula industry pushing that narrative or something with deeper cultural roots? Is the Chinese equivalent of the Center for Disease Control doing any thing to increase and prolong breast feeding in the population? It can be pretty important to an infants long term health and development. Eh I wouldn't trust any governmental organization in China, not when corruption is so rampant. We already know they massively lie about environmental issues so why wouldn't they lie here? China has proven time and again that they only care about business and view the people as expendable.
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May 23, 2013 22:35
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cafel posted:Is this message a result of the formula industry pushing that narrative or something with deeper cultural roots? Is the Chinese equivalent of the Center for Disease Control doing any thing to increase and prolong breast feeding in the population? It can be pretty important to an infants long term health and development. It's pressure from everywhere. There's a desire for fat babies, and formula companies claim their junk is more fattening It's really damned normal for both parents to work and granny watches over the kid, or a nanny which makes breastfeeding harder to make happen Formula companies do kickbacks to the hospitals so the whole issue of "breastfeeding" is basically never discussed. Giving birth is honestly dirt cheap in the hospitals, so they push hard sells for just about every useless thing you can imagine. Starting from "here's a voucher for a 400g can of overpriced formula" and it's basically gonna overlap with the specific brands that are being swept off the shelves everywhere. Everything from gold and silver birth certificates, to baby footprints immediately following birth etched in plastic, packages for 坐月子 ranging in the tens of thousands, "classes" that they try and claim are required, but nothing more than sales pitches (that you actually have to pay for). It's also why they encourage cesareans (extra cost). Basically what you see happening here is a direct impact of neolib idiocy that has infected the system, price gouging and unadulterated greed. ryan8723 posted:Eh I wouldn't trust any governmental organization in China, not when corruption is so rampant. We already know they massively lie about environmental issues so why wouldn't they lie here? As bad as you think the state orgs are, private companies tend to be much much worse.
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May 23, 2013 22:57
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ryan8723 posted:Coming from an environmental engineering background, I can honestly say that China has a looming ecological disaster that will make everything in the world look like the garden of Eden. Even if they did perfect everything and went all out, there are still a billion+ people living in an area that can't support a billion people. They don't have enough resources to keep that kind of population going, which means they have to rape the land to continue. So what happens when it's evident to both populations that they're going to starve? Aside from the riots, anarchy and so forth - How will the governments increase their food sources?
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May 23, 2013 23:00
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WarpedNaba posted:So what happens when it's evident to both populations that they're going to starve? Aside from the riots, anarchy and so forth - How will the governments increase their food sources? Maybe strike deals with third world countries who have arable land? I mean it's the same thing as any country that lacks a necessary resource. They will just try to get it by buying it or taking it.
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May 23, 2013 23:07
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And look, China's making deals in Africa. I don't know if that's the reason, but it's something.
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May 24, 2013 01:04
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WarpedNaba posted:So what happens when it's evident to both populations that they're going to starve? Aside from the riots, anarchy and so forth - How will the governments increase their food sources? Eat the poor. Serious answer: the Chinese have engineered themselves into a (relative) population crash that will likely do something to ease the pressure, but they can't really go any further because the economic consequences are already looking pretty dire. Desertification is definitely going to continue encroaching on China's arable land though, groundwater will continue to be used up and contaminated*, surface water is already thoroughly contaminated so it's hard to see China maintaining its food security in the long term. Air pollution actually might see some change because it's extremely visible and people are more and more angry about it, and it's a short-cycle thing that can be easy to change. Just look at the UK and American experiences with air pollution. *Several Chinese companies have been caught injecting industrial waste directly into aquifers to save money on disposable, and if one company is doing it in China it's a fair bet to assume that many are doing it.
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May 24, 2013 02:01
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Arglebargle III posted:*Several Chinese companies have been caught injecting industrial waste directly into aquifers to save money on disposable, and if one company is doing it in China it's a fair bet to assume that many are doing it. Any sources for that? Not calling bullshit, but would be interested to read, as its pretty much textbook capitalism. Have the found the source for the recent/latest cadmium contamination stories.
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May 24, 2013 02:41
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Wibbleman posted:Any sources for that? Not calling bullshit, but would be interested to read, as its pretty much textbook capitalism. I think it's textbook libertarianism. The government doesn't exercise many rules so people do whatever the gently caress they want. And people being who they are do the worst things they can think of to make money. In many ways China is a textbook example of libertarianism--the government can't or won't intervene in many matters and the average person suffers for it.
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May 24, 2013 02:46
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:there are many "more conservative" Chinese students who don't understand American "openness" (bourgeois/liberalism). Vladimir Putin posted:I think it's textbook libertarianism. The government doesn't exercise many rules so people do whatever the gently caress they want. And people being who they are do the worst things they can think of to make money. In many ways China is a textbook example of libertarianism--the government can't or won't intervene in many matters and the average person suffers for it. No seriously folks. China is not at all like Hong Kong, which is legit free and you can do whatever you want and gently caress all the lower classes. China has regulations. Lots of them. And an economy dominated by state-owned giants. Those state-owned companies can do whatever they want because they're by definition well-connected, and then there's the private sector leaders who can do what they want because they bribed enough people or are related to enough people (usually both).
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May 24, 2013 03:27
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Bloodnose posted:It's really not. China is not a free market liberal economy in any sense of the word. Well... I typed that and then I was going to explain that the reason it's not free is because there's actually tons of complex regulation that the well-connected just bribe their way out of. But maybe buying the kind of government/regulations you want is just super hyper free market? I think so. Yeah they have lots of regulation, but if you have money none of that applies to you. That sounds pretty much straight libertarian to me. If it weren't then the regulations would apply to everyone no matter what kind of money or connections you can bring. I don't think the hyper free market has to mean the laws don't exist, you can have a China situation where they exist on paper but in practice might as well not exist at all.
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May 24, 2013 03:39
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Bloodnose posted:For Chinese people, "open" (開放) when describing people pretty exclusively refers to sexual habits. When a Chinese person says "hey, you westerners are pretty open, right?" it means "so how many orgies do you have planned this evening?" "Conservative" (保守) can be used a bit more broadly but most often describes sexuality as well. It's pretty much an all around example of an unsustainable system that is going to have seriously dire causes in a few decades on a global scale. China and India are completely destroying their local environment and ecosystem to play economic catch-up with the first world countries but there's no point in sprinting to the finish if you're barely outrunning the consequences.
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May 24, 2013 03:41
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Bloodnose posted:China has regulations. Lots of them. And an economy dominated by state-owned giants. Those state-owned companies can do whatever they want because they're by definition well-connected, and then there's the private sector leaders who can do what they want because they bribed enough people or are related to enough people (usually both). Right, but that's sorta the thing- saying "there are lots of regulations" but then admitting that they aren't really in effect on a practical level cuts back to Vladimir Putin said- if the government can't or won't enforce these regulations, we end up with this weird nightmare libertarian world, where companies are doing whatever the gently caress they want, public good be damned. China can have all kinds of awesome regulations on the books, but if they exist mainly on paper then what exactly is the point?
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May 24, 2013 04:06
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The point is if you're a budding entrepreneur, even one with a good idea and business model that deserves to succeed, you will get hosed by regulators who finally see a chance to make a token example. Although you probably won't be able to raise any capital to begin with, because the lenders in China only lend to state-owned businesses or other massive organizations. Of course you could always go to the shadow market and pay 30% interest for a truckload of cash. But then you'll just run into some arcane labor regulations that, because you're not connected or bribey enough, apply to you and no one else.
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May 24, 2013 04:09
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I wish an economist can come in explain a few things especially about the dead weight social loss. Grand Fromage posted:I think so. Yeah they have lots of regulation, but if you have money none of that applies to you. That sounds pretty much straight libertarian to me. If it weren't then the regulations would apply to everyone no matter what kind of money or connections you can bring. I don't think the hyper free market has to mean the laws don't exist, you can have a China situation where they exist on paper but in practice might as well not exist at all. If the budget low cost carrier Spring airlines could fly Beijing to Hong Kong, they would already have. Heck, instead of going to Shanghai for the weekends, flying to Beijing from time to time would be nice change  But Air China as a state owned enterprise has an iron grip on Beijing's terminals and gates. Even Cathay Pacific can't outright ban other carriers from opening shop in HK's airport.Saying that money can buy your way out of jail is a bit too extreme for China. While bribery is common, but so are executions  Punishments do happen, but the verdict and legal system is too unpredictable and sometimes unreliable. I would argue that bribing the government makes the market less libertarian because it's an extra market barrier. Somalia is over used as a Libertarian paradise but the laws there are non-existent, not weak.pentyne posted:It's pretty much an all around example of an unsustainable system that is going to have seriously dire causes in a few decades on a global scale. China and India are completely destroying their local environment and ecosystem to play economic catch-up with the first world countries but there's no point in sprinting to the finish if you're barely outrunning the consequences. Party members actually have their own private farms and food stores. So do Olympic Athletes because regular food has too many hormones in it  There are farms in China and the Pearl river delta selling food just for the Hong Kong market. Agriculture can be done right, but again, it's the administration and management which makes people in China not able to have nice things  Recently, I think there was an article in a finance magazine detailing an investment group entering the agriculture market. They are planning to grow kiwis and blueberries, as high margin goods and also avoiding cereals because that's state enterprise-no-no territory.http://english.caixin.com/2013-05-21/100530802.html posted:Beijing) – An increasing numbers of Chinese consumers are willing to pay more for high-quality food as their living standards improve. I don't know how they will deal with pollution. A more cynical way is to see it as a failing venture at the start to funnel God knows what. But I'm somewhat glad that people are taking growing food more seriously in China. Parma ham, Iberico pork, Champagne, Purity Laws, USDA Beef... Chinese companies needs to market its food and capitalize on its vast land and culinary history to the rest of the world. In my mind, the best way to preserve tradition and culture is to market the gently caress out of it. Besides starting a tech company, my dream is to start a food company/online distribution and market these products overseas or at least to the Chinese diaspora. Grand Fromage and a few Korean goons can be my food consultants 
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May 24, 2013 04:16
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Bloodnose posted:The point is if you're a budding entrepreneur, even one with a good idea and business model that deserves to succeed, you will get hosed by regulators who finally see a chance to make a token example. Although you probably won't be able to raise any capital to begin with, because the lenders in China only lend to state-owned businesses or other massive organizations. Right, but this still isn't meaningful enforcement of regulations, especially when enormous state-run industries and enormous industries with enough money to purchase regulators are the ones doing so much of the damage. Hell, even your example admits that regulators aren't looking to enforce regulations, they're looking for a kickback. This is why regulations aren't enforced and why we can't say that "China has a lot of regulations" like that phrase means anything at all.
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May 24, 2013 04:24
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It means it's not a free market libertarian society. That's my point. Again, you need to look at the example of Hong Kong, which is, definitely a free market libertarian society and see how they're different. I can set up a company for like $100 USD here (in Hong Kong) and start exploiting workers for peanuts tomorrow. It doesn't work that way in China, no matter how many regulations are ignored.
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May 24, 2013 04:28
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Alright, I mean 'state capitalist kleptocrat hellhole' is a better description for the whole system, so as long as we can agree that "regulations" in China aren't really regulations then I think we're in accord here.
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May 24, 2013 04:55
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I think the issue is that pure libertarianism and state capitalist kleptocrat hellhole are both terrible in many similar ways. It's a fluid barrier. Caberham use your libertarian dystopia to keep sending me Shaoxing wine and I'm a happy man.
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May 24, 2013 05:10
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caberham posted:Parma ham, Iberico pork, Champagne, Purity Laws, USDA Beef... Chinese companies needs to market its food and capitalize on its vast land and culinary history to the rest of the world. In my mind, the best way to preserve tradition and culture is to market the gently caress out of it. Besides starting a tech company, my dream is to start a food company/online distribution and market these products overseas or at least to the Chinese diaspora. Sorry to say the problem with that is that the marketing space has been poisoned... literally. People associate products from China with poison, and not without reason. Even Chinese people associate domestic food with contamination. Selling China-produce food abroad is going to be difficult.
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May 24, 2013 05:37
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Hey Zhengzhou goons, been clubbing lately?SCMP posted:Hospitality is overrated - at least for China’s party cadres whose extravagant lifestyles and love of bar-hopping are drawing increasing scrutiny from the country’s online community.
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May 24, 2013 05:54
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Never stop posting SCMP, Bloodnose. 
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May 24, 2013 06:11
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Wow, slow news day in HK. Future SCMP headline: Crime Rate in Zumadian Reported to be Above National Average
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May 24, 2013 06:27
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