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Khorne posted:Cryptozoic has straight-out said that dungeon crawler is likely the most lucrative $250 tier and they are surprised how poorly it has sold. I think the disconnect is in that no one really knows about pve yet. We have a rough idea of the layout and goals, but we don't actually know how it ultimately plays out. We don't know how the content will be developed, the value of the loot, or any of the other factors. All we can do is speculate. I find this interesting. I guess it's understandable given the lack of info on how PVE works - the devs obviously know things we don't regarding PVE. The only thing we've seen streamed is PVP matches, which don't feature PVE cards at all. The PVE cards don't need to be balanced for tournament play at all, so for all we know the high end PVE drops could be P9-tier cards that help trivialize dungeons. Having an extra loot roll for cards of that caliber could be incredibly valuable, especially if raids have a lockout.
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May 28, 2013 19:41
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Am I the only one who gives 0 fucks about PvE? In fact I'd be ecstatic if they scrapped that idea altogether.
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May 28, 2013 19:47
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Exclusive posted:Am I the only one who gives 0 fucks about PvE? In fact I'd be ecstatic if they scrapped that idea altogether. Normally I give zero fucks about PvE in all things, but hey, they made a puzzle game out of it. I'm at least interested where normally I'd be like gently caress this poo poo. And hey, it's the free part of the game that might get some of my friends playing who otherwise wouldn't.
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May 28, 2013 19:49
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Exclusive posted:Am I the only one who gives 0 fucks about PvE? In fact I'd be ecstatic if they scrapped that idea altogether. I'm rusty enough on TCG play that I want to practice in PvE a bit before jumping into the deep end of the pool. Just browsing modern Magic decks there are a lot of concepts and abilities that I had to look up ("annihilator"? Indestructible? Hexproof? Flashback?) and I'll need to play for a bit before I'll have a deck worth actually taking against other people.
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May 28, 2013 19:59
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Exclusive posted:Am I the only one who gives 0 fucks about PvE? In fact I'd be ecstatic if they scrapped that idea altogether. The rate at which PP (and GK) sold out vs. absolutely everything else indicates that no, in fact, you are part of a gigantic majority. As frequently mentioned, of course, that could change once we actually know meaningful things about their PvE, but it would be very surprising if the ratio shifted dramatically since we are talking about a TCG here.
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May 28, 2013 20:10
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm rusty enough on TCG play that I want to practice in PvE a bit before jumping into the deep end of the pool. Just browsing modern Magic decks there are a lot of concepts and abilities that I had to look up ("annihilator"? Indestructible? Hexproof? Flashback?) and I'll need to play for a bit before I'll have a deck worth actually taking against other people. Also, if they manage to make the PvE segment nearly as fun as the Microprose Shandalar game from back in the day, it will be fantastic.
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May 28, 2013 20:10
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The more I read this post and think about it, the more of a gamble the DC tier becomes. Just because they are good at TCG's doesn't mean that the PvE stuff will be fun. The loot from PvE could be completely worthless to the arguably larger backing of competitive TCG players. Why would those players trade off excess booster winnings and platinum for PvE junk and gold? The only thing you can do with PvE loot is... more PvE and the anything goes format that won't be played for prizes. I can see new players dropping money for platinum for gear to get into PvE but unless you can also get boosters for platinum, there's half of the equation missing. Wait... am I over thinking this or has CZE failed to explain the value of the PvE side of their game?
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May 28, 2013 20:11
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Blazing Zero posted:Wait... am I over thinking this or has CZE failed to explain the value of the PvE side of their game? No, they've completely failed to explain it beyond it seemingly being the only way to play against an AI.
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May 28, 2013 20:15
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Eh, they've explained it to a certain extent. They've released an article or two on it (Kraken's Lair) on their website. The problem is everyone who's played a TCG before *knows* what the pvp side of the game is like; PvE, no matter how well explained, is so new as to be hypothetical, and the parts that will determine loot value are precisely the parts they aren't going to explain till post release ("Yes, it will take you months of grinding to get a magic sword for your raid deck. You'll love it. Trust us. There will be lock-out timers and everything. It'll be just like that tedious grind that made you quit WoW in frustration after a year.") EDIT: New article today (or did this go up yesterday?) on a PvE dungeon: http://hextcg.com/interview-with-a-supervillain/ Interesting thing is the endgame card appears to be PvP flagged. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 20:37 on May 28, 2013 |
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May 28, 2013 20:23
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For people considering Dungeon Crawler, I've just seen a post claiming that CZE says it won't apply to raid loot drops (they aren't considered dungeons). That could damage the value a bit if it's true.
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May 28, 2013 20:32
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pumpinglemma posted:For people considering Dungeon Crawler, I've just seen a post claiming that CZE says it won't apply to raid loot drops (they aren't considered dungeons). That could damage the value a bit if it's true. A bit? Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit.
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May 28, 2013 20:36
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Jedit posted:No, they've completely failed to explain it beyond it seemingly being the only way to play against an AI. This is what I was getting at - Of course the Devs (think they) know what the DC tier is "worth" relative to the other tiers - they're the only ones who know what the hell the PVE side of the game entails and what the experience will be like. Players will grab the tiers that look valuable given what they know - the players know exactly what drafting and PVP gameplay entails, so they gobbled up the Pro tier and ignored the PVE tiers. That said, I'll laugh my rear end off if the devs were right and PVE becomes a hugely popular thing that outshines PVP by a huge amount. You can't buy the kind of entertainment that will exist on the Hex forums courtesy of angry Pro Player pledges if that happens. 
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May 28, 2013 20:37
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Exclusive posted:Am I the only one who gives 0 fucks about PvE? In fact I'd be ecstatic if they scrapped that idea altogether. I would have had this exact opinion maybe a year ago. However, after playing the Lord of the Rings Card Game, my mind was blown. The entire game is you and some friends build a decks and play "PVE" vs. a Quest Deck and it is a truly excellent game. If you get a chance you should play it, I think you'll be surprised. There's a lot of potential in the idea of playing a card game vs. an AI, that's not the problem. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Eh, they've explained it to a certain extent. They've released an article or two on it (Kraken's Lair) on their website. The problem is everyone who's played a TCG before *knows* what the pvp side of the game is like; PvE, no matter how well explained, is so new as to be hypothetical, and the parts that will determine loot value are precisely the parts they aren't going to explain till post release ("Yes, it will take you months of grinding to get a magic sword for your raid deck. You'll love it. Trust us. There will be lock-out timers and everything.") This is the problem. I'm cautiously optimistic about Hex's PVE, but the main reason I haven't splurged on Dungeon Crawler is the lack of information. The way I see it, there's two possible outcomes: A) PVE is a gigantic grind fest where you're expected to complete a certain dungeon or encounter or whatever a dozen times until you finally get the rare drop card you're looking for. In this case Dungeon Crawler's bonus is super valuable, but the mode as whole would not be what I'm looking for in a game, which means I don't want to sink $250 in it. B) PVE is not grindy at all and you can attain most everything within a reasonable timeframe. In this case the game is great, but Dungeon Crawler's bonus might not be good enough to be worth the money. Another thing that worries me is it becoming too easy. PVE is supposed to be free to play. How will they balance the fact that someone starting with 150 boosters and a shitload of promo cards and legendary items will likely just steamroll everything? If they tune it to be challenging to DC tier holders, how will people who spent no money be able to complete dungeons reasonably?
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May 28, 2013 20:41
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Ojetor posted:Another thing that worries me is it becoming too easy. PVE is supposed to be free to play. How will they balance the fact that someone starting with 150 boosters and a shitload of promo cards and legendary items will likely just steamroll everything? If they tune it to be challenging to DC tier holders, how will people who spent no money be able to complete dungeons reasonably? Levels and equipment I suppose. Also a bunch of PvE cards that don't come in those boosters at all that might be got drat necessary to succeed. I guess a good question would be "is raid gear NECESSARILY better than dungeon gear, or are there some crazy hard dungeons that would give equivalent poo poo for a single player?" I'm guessing the answer is raid is a tier above dungeon, straight up, but a boy can dream signalnoise fucked around with this message at 20:55 on May 28, 2013 |
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May 28, 2013 20:44
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New article explaining a bunch (all?) of the keywords in the set, with some new previews: http://hextcg.com/keywords/ There's one keyword I'm really leery about; the Magic players here will know what I mean.
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May 28, 2013 20:57
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As far as worth is concerned, I feel like Dungeon Crawler is the biggest gamble. I'm pretty skeptical because as mentioned most people paying money are going to be interested in the PVP stuff. From what I understand, there's not going to be any PVE loot that PVPers will be interested in except for champions maybe but you can't trade those anyways. Will equipment and PVE cards really be enough to make Dungeon Crawler one of the most valuable tiers? I mean there aren't mounts or pets in this game so i'm having a hard time seeing it. I'm the kind of person who can get 40-60 hours playing solo from the DotP releases though so I know i'll enjoy the PVE content regardless. I still think the collector is the hidden gem, even after they doubled the cards in that update as of right now there will only be 604 sets of the alternate art pvp cards each year. Still a little bit of a gamble as it probably depends on if they just pick whatever they feel like for the alternate art or if they do the best cards. That update also confirmed no card with the shirt, instead everyone who backs gets the card and multiples where applicable.
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May 28, 2013 21:13
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Some Numbers posted:New article explaining a bunch (all?) of the keywords in the set, with some new previews: http://hextcg.com/keywords/ Could you elaborate for those of us who aren't serious Magic players?
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May 28, 2013 21:14
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katkillad2 posted:I still think the collector is the hidden gem, even after they doubled the cards in that update as of right now there will only be 604 sets of the alternate art pvp cards each year. Still a little bit of a gamble as it probably depends on if they just pick whatever they feel like for the alternate art or if they do the best cards. Plus, most people backing at Collector tier are going to keep their pair. I expect that, like Spectral Lotus Garden, those are cards that are only going to hit the auction house when someone's account gets hacked.
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May 28, 2013 21:16
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pumpinglemma posted:Could you elaborate for those of us who aren't serious Magic players? I'm guessing he's referring to "Spellshield" which is equivalent to "Hexproof" in Magic. Creatures or permanents you control can't be the target of spells and abilities controlled by your opponents. This makes it very hard to remove these permanents from the board. One of the top competitive Magic decks right now revolves around running Hexproof guys and equipping them with stat-buffing enchantments. There are relatively few cards that your opponent can have to kill these dudes and hence the controversy.
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May 28, 2013 21:18
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pumpinglemma posted:Could you elaborate for those of us who aren't serious Magic players? I think he's referring to spellshield, which is a keyword equivalent to what hexproof does in magic. Hexproof in magic is an extremely powerful ability and can be found on cards with no other real drawbacks. It can be really frustrating to play against creatures with hexproof as it is so difficult to deal with them. As long as the developers understand how powerful the ability is and use it somewhat sparingly I don't think there should be too much of a problem. edit: beaten
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May 28, 2013 21:19
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Escalation or Spellshield are the ones I´m a little leery about, though we haven't seen any many things to take advantage of it. Backed the backscatter at the $85 tier, since Exalted is already taking a bunch of my money. I love a lot of the stuff we've seen so far.
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May 28, 2013 21:21
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gently caress spellshield.
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May 28, 2013 21:23
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Yeah, Spellshield is what I was talking about. From the name, I expected that it would be "can't be targeted" by either player, which would be fine. The fact that it's "can't be targeted by your opponent" is worrying. It should be fine, as long as it's used rarely, but if it every becomes ubiquitous, that could be a serious problem. Do you think if enough people complained, they'd change Spellshield to prevent all targeting?
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May 28, 2013 21:23
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The issue isn't so much power as it is lack of fun. The reason Magic design is cutting hexproof out is because players, particularly new players get real bummed out when they encounter it. Although Gesit of St. Traft (the marquee power card with the hexproof ability) is certainly a very good card, it has hardly warped the Standard Magic format. It's more of a question of whether the fun you have playing it makes up for the lack of fun you can have when playing against it. Personally, I don't see it as a problem, but I'm also not a casual player.
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May 28, 2013 21:24
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Also, I think they solved the t-shirt debate in a good way. The shirt doesn't come with a card. Backers get the card as a bonus
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May 28, 2013 21:26
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I wonder if Spellshield will protect from effects that target cards in the deck? We've seen one burn spell that hits any creatures on the top few cards of your library, after all. There's a good bit more room for nontargeted removal in Hex I think.
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May 28, 2013 21:27
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Can you Counterspell the casting of a "hexproof" creature? Also, what ever happened to Banding? Is that just not a thing any more? Banding was awesome.
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May 28, 2013 21:27
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Can you Counterspell the casting of a "hexproof" creature? Sure. But there are some cards that have "cannot be countered by spells and/or abilities". And banding has been gone for over a decade I believe.
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May 28, 2013 21:28
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Karnegal posted:The issue isn't so much power as it is lack of fun. The reason Magic design is cutting hexproof out is because players, particularly new players get real bummed out when they encounter it. Although Gesit of St. Traft (the marquee power card with the hexproof ability) is certainly a very good card, it has hardly warped the Standard Magic format. It's more of a question of whether the fun you have playing it makes up for the lack of fun you can have when playing against it. Personally, I don't see it as a problem, but I'm also not a casual player. The whole saga with Invisible Stalker + Swords/Pike is kind of what highlights hexproof as a bad mechanic to me. It was great when it was just on trolls, they were never undercosted and felt pretty unique. Then you had untargetable 1/1's that couldn't be blocked hitting you with swords. That poo poo wasn't a ton of fun.
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May 28, 2013 21:28
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Can you Counterspell the casting of a "hexproof" creature? You can, but the new philosophy in Magic is that creatures are more interesting that spells and counterspells are really uninteresting. So, they've made countermagic worse and creatures better. Banding was a dumb ability that way more text than can fit on a card. Wizards doesn't want abilities whose reminder text can't fit on a card in 2 pt font.
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May 28, 2013 21:29
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Some Numbers posted:You can, but the new philosophy in Magic is that creatures are more interesting that spells and counterspells are really uninteresting. So, they've made countermagic worse and creatures better. Bleh, that's dumb. Creatures are lame play for borings. The fun part of magic is forking a counterspell onto itself. Exclusive posted:
What do you want from me? I'm old! Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 21:40 on May 28, 2013 |
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May 28, 2013 21:36
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PrinnySquadron posted:Escalation or Spellshield are the ones I´m a little leery about, though we haven't seen any many things to take advantage of it. I can see Escalation combined with any sort of Tutor effect to get out of hand very quickly.
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May 28, 2013 21:45
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Exclusive posted:Am I the only one who gives 0 fucks about PvE? In fact I'd be ecstatic if they scrapped that idea altogether. I'm a scumbag casual who enjoyed Duel of the Planeswalker's singleplayer so if they make an MMO's worth of that type of content with actual deck building I think that will be pretty awesome. $250 is way over what I'm willing to spend on the Kickstarter though, so it didn't effect what tier I pledged at. I think the rate at which PP sold out doesn't necessarily mean there are way more people interested in the PvP aspect, just that there are way more people interested in the PvP aspect who are willing to drop $250 to kickstart a game that may end up being DoA 6 months out (I hope not, but I've played plenty of games where this has happened so I'm definitely not ruling it out). edit: The lack of info about PvE and the fact that it won't be in the beta at launch probably also hurt those tiers. The Moon Monster fucked around with this message at 21:54 on May 28, 2013 |
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May 28, 2013 21:49
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Mr. Peepers posted:I can see Escalation combined with any sort of Tutor effect to get out of hand very quickly. Very much this. There's already a turn 2 PvE kill combo available with just the previewed cards, though it would require a lot of luck for the hand: Resource, Lotus (Ruby), Ragefire, Overcharge, Overcharge [Pass Turn] Resource, Ragefire and win. e: I'm curious to know whether an Overcharge copying a Ragefire would escalate the Ragefire on the stack. I'm guessing no because the escalation text specifies all the places the card can be to have it's damage value doubled. It's a lethal combo regardless, but it's the difference between 2+4+8+16 damage and 2+2+2+16. OBi fucked around with this message at 21:58 on May 28, 2013 |
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May 28, 2013 21:52
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Wezlar posted:The whole saga with Invisible Stalker + Swords/Pike is kind of what highlights hexproof as a bad mechanic to me. It was great when it was just on trolls, they were never undercosted and felt pretty unique. Then you had untargetable 1/1's that couldn't be blocked hitting you with swords. That poo poo wasn't a ton of fun. Yeah, but Hex doesn't have equipment(in that sense, anyway), or even local enchantments as far as I can tell. So it shouldn't be quite so ridiculous.
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May 28, 2013 22:17
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Selane posted:Yeah, but Hex doesn't have equipment(in that sense, anyway), or even local enchantments as far as I can tell. So it shouldn't be quite so ridiculous. Actions that gives permanent boosts are basically the same as auras (a smidgen better, even, because the boost stays on the card if it gets bounced).
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May 28, 2013 22:20
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OBi posted:Very much this. There's already a turn 2 PvE kill combo available with just the previewed cards, though it would require a lot of luck for the hand: Resource, Lotus (Ruby), Ragefire, Overcharge, Overcharge [Pass Turn] Resource, Ragefire and win. You're assuming you get 4 Overcharges. Overcharge is a card you get as a set bonus; I think it's safer to assume you only get 1.
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May 28, 2013 22:21
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That also assumes that the copy shuffles back in and Escalates too. This being a digital game, I can see that actually happening, but until I get confirmation, I'm not going assume Overcharge is THAT insane.
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May 28, 2013 22:32
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I'm surprised I didn't see any Reach analogue in there. Call it Range with archer or wizard troops or whatever, where non-flying units of that type can block flyers.
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May 28, 2013 22:35
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Some Numbers posted:That also assumes that the copy shuffles back in and Escalates too. It actually assumes only that the copy's escalate will double the second copy of Ragefire in your hand--it doesn't care one way or another what happens to the copy.
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May 28, 2013 22:35
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