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Zeitgueist posted:I think that stuff like this serves as good reason for a critical examination of popular art like fantasy novels and the like, because it shows that no matter how evil the character may be, people will still find ways to try and justify the actions based on the fact that they are a major character and not explicitly stated to be evil. Abercrombie is making a point about how little critical thought we give to people who match our preconceived notions of goodness. Glokta, characteristically, is the first to understand exactly who and what Bayaz is.
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May 30, 2013 21:17
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FMguru posted:Abercrombie/Bayaz gets away with it because he spends 90% of the book seeming like the very common mentor/mastermind Good Wizard fantasy character (of the Merlin/Gandalf/Aslan/Elminster/Fizban/Obi-Wan/etc. school). He's charming, he's low-key, he's adorably doddering, he seems to be carrying a heavy burden - he fits the part so perfectly that he's built up an enormous amount of reader goodwill, which is enough to have some left over even after the big reveal toward the end of the third book. I understand all that, but my point was that people will defend Bayaz even after the reveal. It's an example of how media influences people subconsciously.
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May 30, 2013 22:45
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Bayaz is basically the biblical satan. The son of a benevolent god figure who grew jealous and power hungry and murdered his father. Bayaz is about the only one where you can't explain away his actions with "he's a product of his circumstances", because everything is really his fault. Including just about everything that's wrong with the world that Abercrombie's books are set in.
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May 30, 2013 22:50
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FMguru posted:Abercrombie is making a point about how little critical thought we give to people who match our preconceived notions of goodness. Though I guess maybe a contrary view is that from all appearances Bayaz started out pretty bad. TheWorldIsSquare posted:And yet I don't remember him torturing anyone he didn't need to except Sult at the end, disapproves of that torturer in Dagoska who tortured basically anyone that could be remotely connected to the conspiracy, and he shows mercy to women fairly often. Say what you want about his motives but, like I said, he isn't sadistic as far as torturers go.
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May 31, 2013 02:56
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Tolkien already has a Gandalf-gone-bad character in Lord of the Rings: Saruman. He's a Gandalf-grade wizard who loses track of his mission and decides to openly rule in Middle Earth instead of selflessly helping the other peoples on ME maintain their freedom. Which is pretty much Bayaz in a nutshell.
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May 31, 2013 03:21
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Not quite Gandalf-grade.
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May 31, 2013 03:26
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FMguru posted:Tolkien already has a Gandalf-gone-bad character in Lord of the Rings: Saruman. Saruman is not a very good basis for comparison. First of all, Saruman bent his knee to Sauron for power while Bayaz up and killed the people that were stronger than him. Second, Saruman is incompetent to the point where he gets his rear end stomped by a bunch of hobbits. Bayaz is foiled much less frequently, and typically only at great cost and on a temporary basis. Gandalf-gone-bad, or Gandalf-with-no-morals, is a much better comparison.
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May 31, 2013 03:33
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Above Our Own posted:How many does it take? I mean, he didn't have to become a torturer in the first place. But he had personal experience of it, and in how many jobs does that look good on a résumé?
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May 31, 2013 08:02
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I think there was a whole monologue in the first book where he basically laid out "it's torture people or go home and lie around in my own poo poo" (paraphrased). I may be repeating myself at this point but applying 2013 conventional SJW morality to a cripple tortured beyond his breaking point in search of whether he is a Good or Bad Person is... not a good way to approach the character. Bayaz/Khalul do seem like total dicks, though.
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May 31, 2013 10:03
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Evfedu posted:I think there was a whole monologue in the first book where he basically laid out "it's torture people or go home and lie around in my own poo poo" (paraphrased). I may be repeating myself at this point but applying 2013 conventional SJW morality to a cripple tortured beyond his breaking point in search of whether he is a Good or Bad Person is... not a good way to approach the character. You seriously think that was his only option? Torture people or lie around in his own poo poo? He is trying to delude himself into thinking that he isn't a horrible horrible evil poo poo. He could have loving written poetry, became a state official, a patron of the arts, a magister, a scholar or loving anything that doesn't involve actual physical exertion but he CHOSE to torture people. The guy comes from a filthy rich family, all doors were open. Glokta is a bad person. Period.
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May 31, 2013 10:10
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All the people Abercrombie writes about are objectively bad (or they get murdered before we get access to their no doubt horrific internal monologue.) which is kind of the point? Bayaz is obviously the worst however. Also 'a perspective from which lives look like ants' dude, the whole point of morality is that when you suddenly achieve Godlike power you don't change your perspective. If you do, you weren't really moral in the first place you were just powerless. It isn't just that the setting is deformed (it isn't shaped, shaped implies care and thought) by his mere existence, it's that he is aware of that deformation and revels in it. It isn't that black and white morality requires us to identify characters as evil, it's that we never once see Bayaz offer kindness or any other positive emotion to anyone.
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May 31, 2013 10:53
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@Affi: I Think It's a Bit More Complicated Than That.
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May 31, 2013 10:55
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Evfedu posted:I think there was a whole monologue in the first book where he basically laid out "it's torture people or go home and lie around in my own poo poo" (paraphrased). I may be repeating myself at this point but applying 2013 conventional SJW morality to a cripple tortured beyond his breaking point in search of whether he is a Good or Bad Person is... not a good way to approach the character. Actually it's a perfectly good way to approach a character, because it's a modern book written by a modern person with modern sensibilities. Art and literature do not exist in contextless vaccuum.
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May 31, 2013 18:03
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Evfedu posted:I think there was a whole monologue in the first book where he basically laid out "it's torture people or go home and lie around in my own poo poo" (paraphrased). I may be repeating myself at this point but applying 2013 conventional SJW morality to a cripple tortured beyond his breaking point in search of whether he is a Good or Bad Person is... not a good way to approach the character. His family was rich though and its not like he needed the work. So he picked torturing people as an alternative to having to move back in with his parents.
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May 31, 2013 23:27
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Mr.48 posted:His family was rich though and its not like he needed the work. So he picked torturing people as an alternative to having to move back in with his parents. 
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Jun 1, 2013 00:42
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Mr.48 posted:His family was rich though and its not like he needed the work. So he picked torturing people as an alternative to having to move back in with his parents. The biggest compelling urge was how everyone in his life prior to his maiming and torture abandoned him after his injuries leaving his broken and alone, letting his hate and malice fester until he took the torturing job to feel a purpose in life. Then at one point in Last Argument when Glokta was feeling particularly lovely he sniped at West for never writing or coming to see him while he was laid up and West reveals to him that Glokta's mother kept everyone from seeing him, to hide his shame or whatever, so all of his friends and companions were refused access and thought Glokta didn't want anything to do with them.
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Jun 1, 2013 04:54
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Glotka's descent is kinda cool because he's presented as the chivalrous knight champion that fantasy writers loves and then poo poo worse than he could ever imagine (and worse than ever presented in archetype fantasy) happens and he literally doesn't know what to do because he doesn't have anything to compare himself to.
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Jun 1, 2013 06:32
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He obviously joined the torturers partially out of sadism, but being tortured for years in an incredibly small cell, your only drink for many days being piss, thinking that all your friends have abandoned you, and being horribly crippled to the point every second is full of pain sort of rules out poetry and painting.
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Jun 1, 2013 07:31
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TheWorldIsSquare posted:He obviously joined the torturers partially out of sadism, but being tortured for years in an incredibly small cell, your only drink for many days being piss, thinking that all your friends have abandoned you, and being horribly crippled to the point every second is full of pain sort of rules out poetry and painting. Nah dude that sounds like the backstory to an awesome Grimdark Baudelaire type character.
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Jun 2, 2013 12:40
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Bayaz pretty much acts like a modern day corporation. Considering he's hundreds of years old it makes sense he'd treat people that only live 40~ years as expendable. Yeah, he's a power hungry shitlord but he's a much more interesting and realistic character than a loving Gandalf trope. Bayaz is still a bit better than Khalul though. Runs a slave empire and props himself up as a godlike figure backed by an army of cannibals. Although, you do get the sense that's there is worse things than those two waiting to be awakening from whatever dark realm Abercrombie is setting up. Space Pussy fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Jun 2, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 22:19
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Space Pussy posted:Bayaz pretty much acts like a modern day corporation. Considering he's hundreds of years old it makes sense he'd treat people that only live 40~ years as expendable. Yeah, he's a power hungry shitlord but he's a much more interesting and realistic character than a loving Gandalf trope. Although if it wasn't for Bayaz being a murdering rear end in a top hat Khalul wouldn't have needed to resort to any of that to get him.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:11
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Mr.48 posted:Although if it wasn't for Bayaz being a murdering rear end in a top hat Khalul wouldn't have needed to resort to any of that to get him. Any ideas on Khalul's real history and motivations are speculation since we don't see him in the text, but I bet he's exactly like Bayaz tit for tat, and just used the death of Juvens as a justification before the other Magi for his empire building.
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Jun 3, 2013 02:04
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Space Pussy posted:Bayaz is still a bit better than Khalul though. Runs a slave empire and props himself up as a godlike figure backed by an army of cannibals. Although, you do get the sense that's there is worse things than those two waiting to be awakening from whatever dark realm Abercrombie is setting up. I would hesitate on damning Khalul moreso than Bayaz, as we really haven't seen much of him, have we? What we know about him is pretty much all tainted by the yarn Bayaz/The Union spins. Granted, I'm sure Khalul is just as twisted and evil and rotten to the core (he does, after all, run a slave empire that props him up as a prophet/godlike figure; that same empire hosts tons of cannibals). What with the new trilogy coming out ~*soon*~, I'm excited to see all the new viewpoints. My favorite Bayaz fanart. Just look at him. He's so happy. Do we know anything about Ferro Maljinn beyond her gaining superpowers with the cavet being the loss of her sanity? If there is one example poor handling of female characters that bothers me it's Ferro's. She could have been so cool, but she is pretty much just discarded. 
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Jun 3, 2013 05:10
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Discarder? Admittedly she didn't get the proper ending that would be most pleasing but the last we see of her she has her mind demons under control and his on her way to rip a whole nation a few too many assholes. I expect her actions, if not the character herself will factor in significantly to the next series.
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Jun 3, 2013 07:48
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I think that, given how our knowledge of Bayaz changes throughout the story, that we have to consider that we may have been misinformed by what little we have been told about his evil cannibal-wizard nemesis.
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Jun 3, 2013 16:02
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I'm pretty sure the evil cannibal-wizard felt he had no choice but to become an evil cannibal wizard in order to stop the megalomaniacal super wizard from enslaving the world forever, and when we finally meet him in the next trilogy, he'll be a surprisingly sympathetic character. There's still the small matter of his empire which brutally conquers its neighbors because it requires the human sacrifice of huge numbers of slaves in order to feed (literally) its magical shock-troops.
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Jun 3, 2013 16:09
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Above Our Own posted:Well if the ends are justifying the means here, then you can't excuse Khalul but not Bayaz. In order for "ends justifying means" to excuse Bayaz, he would first need to have some sort of noble "ends" in mind. However, his ends are literally "getting away with murder" and "have all the power". Mr.48 fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Jun 3, 2013 |
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Jun 3, 2013 17:26
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Mr.48 posted:In order for "ends justifying means" to excuse Bayaz, he would first need to have some sort of noble "ends" in mind. However, his ends are literally "getting away with murder" and "have all the power". I think he genuinely wants to build the Union into an enduringly powerful nation-state (with him at the top, granted) for reasons other than personal gain. He seems to genuinely believe the world would be a better place run the way he wants it run, which, while I wouldn't call it noble, at least puts him in Doctor Doom territory rather than Gibbering McPsychopath territory.
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Jun 3, 2013 17:36
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docbeard posted:I think he genuinely wants to build the Union into an enduringly powerful nation-state (with him at the top, granted) for reasons other than personal gain. He seems to genuinely believe the world would be a better place run the way he wants it run, which, while I wouldn't call it noble, at least puts him in Doctor Doom territory rather than Gibbering McPsychopath territory. What makes you think he believes the world would be a better place when run by him? Are there any specific lines or chapters? Because I didn't get that kind of vibe, I think it's realpolitik all the way down.
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Jun 3, 2013 18:25
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I thought it was mentioned that Bayaz wants the Union to be like Juvens' empire, only better, because he believes he is just that bitchin.
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Jun 3, 2013 18:32
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Bayaz doesn't care about the Union, or anyone else who has been born in the last 1000 years or so. He thinks the Union and rest of the world are pale lovely shadows of the Old Empire. It's just a piece in the same old beef that started from the moment Khalul became Juvens' second apprentice.
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Jun 3, 2013 20:49
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He seems to view everyone who isn't a magus as sub-human. While he seems to view the other Magi as fully formed people he is still uniquely self centered and has mostly contempt for the lot of them, and nothing approaching love even for those most loyal, like the man who died to trap his monstrous ex-girlfriend away from the world. Everyone out side of the circle of Magi are just animals to him. Sheep to be herded, dogs to be commanded, and beasts to be put down. It makes him evil as poo poo but seems like the kind of psychology that immortals( or the extremely long lived) would have toward the common man. Basically, dude's an evil rear end in a top hat.
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Jun 3, 2013 21:00
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The Puppy Bowl posted:He seems to view everyone who isn't a magus as sub-human. While he seems to view the other Magi as fully formed people he is still uniquely self centered and has mostly contempt for the lot of them, and nothing approaching love even for those most loyal, like the man who died to trap his monstrous ex-girlfriend away from the world. Everyone out side of the circle of Magi are just animals to him. Sheep to be herded, dogs to be commanded, and beasts to be put down. It makes him evil as poo poo but seems like the kind of psychology that immortals( or the extremely long lived) would have toward the common man. It's a testament to how ingrained the trope of the benevolent wizard figure is, that you still read tons of people saying how they think he has the best interest of the Union at heart. Though perhaps that's more of a sociological commentary than a literary one.
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Jun 3, 2013 21:15
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Say what you will about Bayaz, I could read about him being an rear end in a top hat all day  It'd be interesting if Abercrombie did give us some chapters from his point of view. All his characters think they're in the right, or at least not completely evil, to some degree. That said when you get on Bayaz' level, it's hard to think of any alternative to 'yep, he's just that big a dick' or the awful, tired 'preparing us for a ~*~bigger threat~*~' trope.
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Jun 3, 2013 23:05
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Strategic Tea posted:Say what you will about Bayaz, I could read about him being an rear end in a top hat all day Well, Bayaz already tried to sell people on the *bigger threat* idea with the Khalul boogeyman, only for us to find out the truth about their relationship.
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Jun 4, 2013 00:14
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Zeitgueist posted:It's a testament to how ingrained the trope of the benevolent wizard figure is, that you still read tons of people saying how they think he has the best interest of the Union at heart. Above Our Own fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 04:17
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Interesting blog update from Joe... Really interested in the stories about the younger Glokta and the Bloody Nine.
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Jun 4, 2013 11:12
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quote:Made a Monster focuses on the attempts of Bethod to finally end his spiralling feuds, bring peace, and pass on something to be proud of to his sons. The squabbling chieftains of the North are always hard to deal with, but the worst obstacle is on his own side – his terrifying champion, the Bloody-Nine… Oh god, yes. This will be awesome.
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Jun 4, 2013 15:18
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Above Our Own posted:Or maybe they just disagree as to the nature of morality in the series, or maybe there's room for some expansive thought when dealing with characters like Bayaz who have no real world analogue. While they're not ancient wizards, Bayaz does have his basis in manipulative politicians, businessmen, and power brokers, who are willing to sacrifice any number of people to feed their greed, power-thirst, and ego. If anyone disagrees on Bayaz being thoroughly awful, I'd be fascinated to hear the argument.
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Jun 4, 2013 17:49
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Zeitgueist posted:While they're not ancient wizards, Bayaz does have his basis in manipulative politicians, businessmen, and power brokers, who are willing to sacrifice any number of people to feed their greed, power-thirst, and ego. From our perspective, Bayaz is almost certainly evil. But trying to claim an objective standpoint of good and evil is deliberately what the author is challenging.
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Jun 4, 2013 18:14
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