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ProfessorProf posted:Well, we sure got our asses kicked. Not quite! Actually that's one of the things I liked the most about the book: it flat out told you the solution halfway through it and just counted on you not noticing because it was disguised in the middle of a funny Sir Henry moment. Here: ‘After all,’ Craft consoled him, ‘it might be a whole lot worse, even if you did slip. It’s nearly high-tide now and you’d only fall in the water.’ It said that the cliff was impossible to climb only in reference to the moment they thought the escape took place: when it was a 70 feet fall. The high tide changed things to a 40 feet jump, which is the kind of jump you can actually people doing on youtube for fun.
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Jun 1, 2013 03:24
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I stand corrected, then. You win this round, Carr.
Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 1, 2013 03:28
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Solution spoilers here!(Just clarifying in case someone doesn't notice the "to the end of the book" assignment last page and thinks we are still discussing the rest of the book) That's actually the bit I was referring to when I mentioned in the "Books you just finished" thread that there were certain moments here I was wondering why they weren't cut out until I finished the book. Funny as Henry's scenes were, I wasn't sure why Carr had included two big scenes like that in a book this short. There was the introduction with the dogs, and the near cliff dive. After I was done and re-read the book I realized that it wasn't what he had put in them but what he hadn't. In the first scene, there was literally nothing of value added to the mystery solving, it was just hilarious how Carr went on overdrive with his prose to describe a mad, bald fat man on a wheelchair being chased by dogs. That was so out of place that when it came to the second scene I didn't even notice the solution being given away until I re-read that chapter before the summation. There are other small bits that I find really clever about the way Carr wrote the book(including two more tricks that were included and foreshadowed but never brought up explicitly during the final explanation) but I'll keep my mouth shut for now until more people get to finish the book.
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Jun 1, 2013 03:42
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*Close book slowly and sit in silence* I too finished the last chapters...I really like Dr. Luke and I don't hate the murderer, it's a very sad story.  Agreed with Professor that the double footprint was my favourite although it made me lost some respect for Rita...The hole in the pocket was also a hit-forehead-with-hand moment. I didn't have a good feeling towards Tom since his women predator quote but never line the dots correctly...The whole chapter in which Dr. Luke was going out in the night while fighting sleeping pills got me pretty concentrated. It's intense. This is my second Carr, the first one was his famous "The Three Coffins". I like She Died a Lady better! It had war roaring in background and I feel it's more emotionally charged. I want to thank everyone since this is unquestionably so much more fun than reading all alone. Sherringford do share your insight on Carr's tricks please! ...And I want to ask a critical question before everyone reach the last page: what's our next book? 
smokieye fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Jun 1, 2013 |
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Jun 1, 2013 05:17
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Whatever it is, I think I'm going to sit out for a round to recharge my brain juice.
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Jun 1, 2013 05:29
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Huh. Well gently caress. I want to read more Carr books now 
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Jun 1, 2013 13:44
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Entenzahn posted:I want to read more Carr books now Agreed, that was really good! ProfessorProf, I think that we were headed in the right direction. These aren't supposed to be easy, what would be the fun of it if we all could figure it out in ten minutes? I am definitely going to remember with Carr to look for the seemingly trivial things...
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Jun 1, 2013 16:52
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ProfessorProf posted:Well, we sure got our asses kicked. I think we actually did pretty alright! We got the motive (unrequited love), most of the means and timeline (we got the roller and knew that high tide and the cave were involved and that the murder was likely done in the cave, we just didn't get the exact method the cave was used), a lot of the other details (Tom replacing the diamonds and giving Rita her passport paperwork), and smokieye guessed Tom. So I would say we were basically 80-90% of the way there, we just couldn't fit all the pieces together perfectly. I really liked the ending, especially the narrative trick Carr used so that he could actually go back to specific quotes from the "manuscript" to point out the in text clues about Tom. That was brilliant as hell, and even though it was sad that Luke died it was cool that he gave him a heroic death. It is weird how many of these stories have ended with a "well, someone was murdered but it's better to let the whole thing drop!" I like HM but man he is pretty open about just letting Tom run off to protect Luke from some heart break.
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Jun 1, 2013 18:25
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You guys were definitely pretty close, yeah. A few times I thought you guys had it but then you gave up on the lead to look at something else. I had to stop myself from posting a "hint" or two. I think it was mostly luck here - if any of you had happened to stumble upon the tide line during that Sir Henry scene, I'm pretty sure you would have all connected the remaining dots. You all more or less got the main points, the main issue was putting them all together because Carr's plots honestly come as close to putting together an actual puzzle as a book can. One neat trick I found that Carr did: Rita seemed surprised that the phone lines had been cut. The book is never explicit about this, but I think she honestly didn't know - everything points to her being more or less in the dark about the fine points of the trick. Sullivan was the one who played with Luke's car as well, so I think the idea is that she didn't know about the phone lines. I could be wrong about this, but the fact that it was emphasized over and over again that Barry was the one good at puzzles kind of gave me that impression. I think the main narrative trick here is the same as the one used in a certain famous Christie novel, but I think it's done more effectively here. In that unnamed-due-to-spoilers Christie example, the twist feels like it stretches the point of reason a bit, like it pulls back the curtain a bit too much and lets it be known that the character only acted that way so that the twist could exist. Here the twist feels more...organic, for the lack of a better word? Also as a bit of pointless trivia, the main trick used here is one Carr used early on in his career in a short story but it wasn't as refined as it is now.
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Jun 2, 2013 01:00
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Sherringford posted:I think the main narrative trick here is the same as the one used in a certain famous Christie novel, but I think it's done more effectively here. In that unnamed-due-to-spoilers Christie example, the twist feels like it stretches the point of reason a bit, like it pulls back the curtain a bit too much and lets it be known that the character only acted that way so that the twist could exist. Here the twist feels more...organic, for the lack of a better word? Carr himself would argue that the plausibility of the actions leading to the Big Trick are inconsequential, going by that essay you posted earlier.
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Jun 2, 2013 01:07
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Oh I'm not arguing the plausibility making it more valid so much as making it more effective. Here it's when Henry said this: I’ve got an idea, if you or I were going to write an account that included some member of our own family, our own family, we’d write in just exactly the same way that the old doctor did.’ It jumps out better because I think a fair reaction to that would be "That is true, I very much would - and I should have seen it coming." I think a trick is at its most effective when it falls under that category, where it's something entirely simple but you don't see it coming. With Christie's twist(which was brilliant as well) what came to mind was "That was great but I can't blame myself for not noticing" if that makes sense.
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Jun 2, 2013 01:15
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smokieye posted:...And I want to ask a critical question before everyone reach the last page: what's our next book? I'm just lurking here (mostly because I've already read the majority of these books, and I'm bound to remember bits when re-reading them even if I've forgotten the plots), but if you guys want something other than another Christie, could I suggest Dorothy L. Sayers' Clouds of Witness? (Arguably her Gaudy Night or Murder Must Advertise are better books, but CoW has pretty much everything you want from a mystery - a Duke accused of murder at an English country house, a dead fiancé, tons of red herrings, etc.)
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Jun 2, 2013 01:45
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On the topic of the next book, I'm afraid I don't have a good Carr book to recommend. Well I do, just not for the purposes of this thread--let me elaborate on this a bit: Carr books can be pretty difficult to find since they've only recently begun to be released as e-books. This limits our number of choices quite a bit and the books we do have available all have a bit of an issue. The Plague Court Murders is one of Carr's earlier novels. It shows a lot of the elements that made him famous, featuring a locked-room mystery with a strong supernatural element. The main trick here is brilliant, but unfortunately as this is one of Carr's earlier novels it doesn't have as many neat details that form a very solid picture at the end. Don't get me wrong, I love the novel but if someone was to point at two specific points in the solution and ponder about the fairness of it, I couldn't defend the novel there, much as Carr is my favorite mystery writer. I do recommend it if you are prepared to get past at one or two strange points toward the end that are frankly unnecessary( the novel could have done without them and frankly would have been much better if that were the case). The Problem of the Green Capsule is an excellent novel featuring Carr's other famous detective, Dr. Gideon Fell. It does not have a supernatural element but it does have a seemingly impossible crime with rock solid logic behind it. The main issue with it is that(and this is a very personal objection) the pacing isn't too good. Because of the very technical nature of the crime, there are a lot of pages dedicated to the crime happening and describing what it was like. This sets up a very interesting thunderbolt solution at the end and I absolutely recommend reading this book whenever you have free time, but I think the slow pacing would make it kind of boring for a thread like this. He Who Whispers features the opposite end of the scale--it has a locked-room murder, supernatural atmosphere and amazing pacing. You just don't want to stop reading it. This is one of Carr's best books in regards to balancing prose with crime and I love it. But I actually like it so much I think it would be cruel to you guys to say "Alright, stop at this cliffhanger" when the book itself is basically set on top of a particularly tall cliff. Again another book I recommend but I'm not sure if it would be the best one for this thread, it just moves really fast. Three Coffins actually would be perfect for this thread. It has a reputation for being Carr's best novel and it's definitely his most famous. The main issue with it is that it's really, really hard to find. There's no official ebook of it, which could make it a bit...complicated. I do love it a lot though. There are a few other Carr books available as ebooks, but they got a bit more issues. And so to Murder is a very fun read, but it doesn't have much of a mystery. It's just Carr having fun with the plot and having Sir Henry act like a maniac. And--holy crap I just went to Amazon and there are a few Carr books I haven't read that seem to have been added as ebooks. Huh. OFF TO READ ALL OF THEM! No but seriously, what I'm saying is that I don't have much of a recommendation for the thread but also I don't have the gift of brevity or the virtue of knowing when to shut up about books. I'm sorry.
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Jun 2, 2013 02:55
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Wow, I didn't expect this finale. I didn't like the solution though, it seems so far fetched. Maybe I just suck at this mystery fiction thing. I'm eager to see what the next book will bring, whatever it is.
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Jun 2, 2013 22:34
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Hobnob posted:I'm just lurking here (mostly because I've already read the majority of these books, and I'm bound to remember bits when re-reading them even if I've forgotten the plots), but if you guys want something other than another Christie, could I suggest Dorothy L. Sayers' Clouds of Witness? (Arguably her Gaudy Night or Murder Must Advertise are better books, but CoW has pretty much everything you want from a mystery - a Duke accused of murder at an English country house, a dead fiancé, tons of red herrings, etc.) Dorothy L Sayers is excellent. I've read some of them, but not as many (proportion-wise) as I have Christies. I really enjoyed Five Red Herrings as well as Gaudy Nights (though I'd say the latter should not be anyone's introduction to Dorothy L Sayers). I also still have several Christies on hand, if the thread decides they're in the mood for that. (I've got Three Act Tragedy, Five Little Pigs, By The Pricking Of My Thumbs, Elephants Can Remember, And Then There Were None and Appointment With Death.) Finding Nouf/The Night of the Miraj (different titles for different places) was enjoyable but I'm not sure if there's enough clues in it to actually work out the answer. I certainly didn't. Maybe if people fancy a challenge?
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Jun 3, 2013 09:20
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Before this thread fades away I suggest that we read The Moving Finger by Agatha Christie next. I also motion to add The Problem of the Green Capsule to the to-do list.
Entenzahn fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Jun 6, 2013 |
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Jun 6, 2013 15:59
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I'm good to go as soon as everyone decides. 
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Jun 6, 2013 16:06
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I've read it, but I enjoy reading along watching you guys try to figure it out :-) Or I can run it, if no one else wants to. Just need to get ahold of a copy. Shouldn't be difficult.
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Jun 6, 2013 16:28
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I might take a break from this one but I will be following the thread so if there aren't many participants I can always jump in later.
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Jun 6, 2013 16:30
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I will need to sit out the Christie one because I'm in a funny position with Christie books. I'm pretty sure I read every Christie book ever, but I read most of those as a kid because my mom had a ton of Christie books. I don't remember the plot to most of them but I know that if I start re-reading them I'll start to remember it. I'll read it along the thread even if I avoid posting speculation though!
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Jun 6, 2013 16:43
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If we need an alternative to pull this thread out of obscurity, I can do a quick read of He Who Whispers and run that.
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Jun 6, 2013 17:51
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If you guys are doing a Carr book again I can totally run it if you guys want too. The only problem is that I never know when enough time has passed to assign more chapters.
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Jun 6, 2013 18:27
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Can we not do a Carr book this time? I want to try a Christie, if possible. (Ofcourse it's a suggestion, don't make or break an idea because of me)
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Jun 6, 2013 21:12
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I wonder, do we have enough people who haven't been subjected to And Then There Were None to do a round of it?
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Jun 6, 2013 21:13
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ProfessorProf posted:I wonder, do we have enough people who haven't been subjected to And Then There Were None to do a round of it? I don't believe I have read that before...
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Jun 6, 2013 21:26
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Sherringford posted:I will need to sit out the Christie one because I'm in a funny position with Christie books. I'm pretty sure I read every Christie book ever, but I read most of those as a kid because my mom had a ton of Christie books. I don't remember the plot to most of them but I know that if I start re-reading them I'll start to remember it. I'll read it along the thread even if I avoid posting speculation though! I'm in kind of the same position, unfortunately. I've read most of the Christies some time ago, and while (except for a few famous ones) I couldn't tell you the plot of them, I was certainly remembering important points in, say, A Murder is Announced as you guys were reading it. Strangely enough, I don't think I've actually read And Then There Were None, though, despite being one of Christie's most famous. However, if you ever do a Sayers I wouldn't mind running it, time permitting.
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Jun 6, 2013 21:36
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I'm totally up for more Carr books but right now let's return to a Christie novel. Any of them will do fine, Murder is Easy is the only one I've ever read.
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Jun 6, 2013 22:08
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Out of the Christie titles we mentioned, I've read The Crooked House and And There Were None (I read them many years ago but couldn't forget the ending. ) Other than these two I'm going to join the thread!
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Jun 7, 2013 03:31
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I'm not sure which is a better pick at this point between And Then There Were None and The Moving Finger, but whichever we go with, I can run it.
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Jun 7, 2013 03:34
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It doesn't seem like it matters much which one we pick for now. I flipped a coin and it'd be The Moving Finger.
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Jun 7, 2013 23:45
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Also never read And Then There Were None despite it being famous but I'm down for whatever! On the current story: I had a bad feeling about Tom but couldn't piece it together. 
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Jun 8, 2013 00:28
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All right, there are enough people here who haven't read And Then There Were None that the experience must be spread. If there are no further objections, I am locking in the next book! It is available on Kindle for $6. Once you have acquired the book, read up to the end of Chapter 4.
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Jun 8, 2013 00:35
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Great! Turns out my wife has a copy of the book, so I'll be following along this time. I haven't read it, but it is one of Christie's most famous, so I do have a rough inkling of the plot (nothing that will spoil the mystery, though). Incidentally, the book was also published under the title Ten Little Indians, and originally, in rather less PC times (1939), Ten Little Niggers, so you might reflect that everywhere the text refers to "Indian Island", it was originally "friend of the family Island". I doubt it has much bearing on the plot, though.
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Jun 8, 2013 03:15
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Hobnob posted:Great! Turns out my wife has a copy of the book, so I'll be following along this time. I haven't read it, but it is one of Christie's most famous, so I do have a rough inkling of the plot (nothing that will spoil the mystery, though).
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Jun 8, 2013 03:34
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Aw man, I was looking forward to participating this time. I bought a copy of The Moving Finger just for this thread, and I read And Then There Were None recently. It was excellent, though. I had the right mentality to figure it out, I just picked the wrong suspect/suspects. I actually loaned my copy to my dad to get him to read it, since he loves mysteries. He hasn't started it yet, but I'm really interested in his guesswork. Anyway, I'll be following the thread to see how it goes. Good luck! 
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Jun 8, 2013 04:32
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So, interesting concept for a book. Not much to discuss though really. I hope someone makes a character list, because I'm not fully set on all the characters yet.
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Jun 10, 2013 20:08
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Grawl posted:So, interesting concept for a book. Not much to discuss though really. I hope someone makes a character list, because I'm not fully set on all the characters yet. This is a huge info dump, I'm still processing it.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:25
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So I'm going to assume two things straight away, based on Christies' usual writing style: 1. Out of the ten (8 guests plus 2 servants), one of them is going to be the person that lured them all to the island. It won't be the boatman or some hidden or undisclosed person. 2. Any first-person thoughts are true and factual. It's possible that one of the characters is mad (and thus their thoughts unreliable), but that seems rather unsporting, and not the sort of thing Christie would do. No. 2 actually rules out a lot of the guests straight away, since we've been in their heads in ch. 1 and know they were tricked into going to the island. The exceptions are Mr & Mrs Rogers (no 1st person thoughts for either), and Blore and Lombard (both hired to go there, but we only have Blore's word for why, and Lombard's is not specified). Of course either might have hired by one of the others, and even someone lured there is not necessarily clear of other actions (i.e. any murders that might be about to occur.) Hobnob fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 10, 2013 22:08
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Did someone say character list?  JUSTICE LAWRENCE JOHN WARGRAVE - retired judge - tricked into coming by a letter from a Lady Constance Culmington (who he had met 7 or 8 years ago) to reminisce - apparently fond of punishment by hanging - low opinion of women - "upon the 10th day of June, 1930, you were guilty of the murder of Edward Seton" - sentenced Seton to die for murdering an elderly woman but Armstrong remembers the details and the rumors that the judge had convinced the jury to not acquit him - claims to have not known Seton before the case but he's pretty obviously lying - authoritive, leader figure of the group VERA CLAYTHORNE - former teacher/governess - comes via a secretarial opening through the Skilled Women's Agency and a letter from Mrs. Owen - has some bad PTSD from watching Cyril (a kid in her care) drown; she thinks that Mrs. Hamilton doesn't blame her but a certain Hugo does? (her thoughts mention a "Hugo who said he loved her") - "on the 11th day of August, 1935, you killed Cyril Ogilvie Hamilton" - exonerated by the Coroner - bursts out into tears at any mention of the memory; I'm inclined to believe a) it really was an accident or b) she's the crazy one PHILIP LOMBARD - soldier hard up on money - bit of an anti-Semite - Mr. Isaac Morris paid him to go to Soldier Island for a week to be "at the disposal of [Morris'] client" - "upon a date in February, 1932, you were guilty of the death of 21 men, members of an East African tribe" - he and some other men took the tribesmen's food after getting lost and cleared out; readily admits to it, so I'm inclined to believe him too EMILY CAROLINE BRENT - old, proper woman - brought to the island by a letter from someone called Mrs. Oliver or Miss Ogden as a guest for a few days - has mutual friends with Gen. MacArthur - "upon the 5th of November, 1931, you were responsible for the death of Beatrice Taylor" - refuses to talk about the accusation GENERAL JOHN GORDON MACARTHUR - got a letter from Mr. Owen, who he believed to be a friend of either Spoof Leggard or Johnnie Dyer - retried soldier - has mutual friends with Miss Brent - "on the 4th of January, 1917, you deliberately sent your wife's lover, Arthur Richmond, to his death" - claims Richmond was one of his officers and killed on a reconnaissance mission that he sent him off on (shaking and trembling and pulling at his mustache the entire time he recounts this) DR. EDWARD GEORGE ARMSTRONG - successful, busy doctor - got a letter from Mr. Owen asking him to check up on Mrs. Owens that mentioned an unavailable colleague of his - has Opinions about women - arrived on Soldier Island a bit later than everyone else - gave evidence in Wargrave's court a long time ago - "you did upon the 14th day of March, 1925, cause the death of Louisa May Clees" - tells the group that he can't remember a Clees and that many people come to the hospital too late, but in his head knows that he killed her because he operated while drunk; he also mentions a Sister that knew but held her tongue (so how would Owen find out??) ANTHONY "TONY" JAMES MARSTON - likes hanging out with the rich and famous - handsome and wealthy - came because he got a telegram from his friend Badger Berkeley to come (Badger was supposed to be in Norway) - "upon the 14th day of November last, you were guilty of the murder of John and Lucy Combes" - thinks he might have run over them? Maybe? Apparently they ran out of a cottage and he had his license suspended  Also totally an accident guys, he swears- chokes after drinking WILLIAM HENRY BLORE - hired as a private investigator by Owen to pose as a guest and watch the others to keep Mrs. Owens' jewels safe - initially posed (badly) as a man from South Africa named Mr. Davis - apparently remembers Soldier Island from his youth - "you brought about the death of James Stephen Landor on October 10th, 1928" - Landor was convicted of a bank robbery on Blore's evidence, got life, and died a year later in prison; Blore was promoted soon after the case FRED NARRACOTT - boatman, we can probably rule him out as the murderer - has never met the Owens despite being employed by them - mentions in his thoughts that everything on the island was "ordered and paid for by that Mr. Morris" - has Expectations about rich people, only Tony meets them - comes over every morning with food and the news, and takes orders MR. ROGERS - the butler - "on the 6th of May, 1929, you brought about the death of Jennifer Brady" MRS. ETHEL ROGERS - Vera thinks she "looks frightened of her own shadow" - serves as cook - "on the 6th of May, 1929, you brought about the death of Jennifer Brady" - Miss Brady was the Rogers' former employer and the two came into some money when she died. Mr. Rogers claimed the two were dutiful and stayed with her until her death because they couldn't get the doctor out in time. (Lombard remembers him dropping the tray and how frightened he looked; Mrs. Rogers fainted and was still unconscious when the group was going over the accusations) Other things to note: - the Rogers have only been employed on Soldier Island for a week through the Regina Agency (that Blore knows, so I doubt it's made up) while the boatman seems to have worked for the previous owner of the island (and he's not named by the voice), so we can probably rule him out - the murders are almost certainly going to follow the nursery rhyme in everyone's room - the Owens (whoever is pretending to be them at least) don't necessarily have to be the murderer - Mr. Morris has come up a couple of times - one of those toy soldiers is going to end up missing after this first murder - whoever set this up is rich, crazy, and has access to knowledge of these murders and the people involved - I quoted the lines given by The Voice because some of them sound like manslaughter while others are more condemning where it's more clearcut that there was murder involved. I don't know how laws across the pond work in case of murder but the distinction might be important in the case of who lives and who dies? Now, on Tony's (apparent) death, back in chapter 3, Tony brings in the drinks himself that Rogers had set up.  So I'm guessing someone poisoned him while they were all chatting and no one noticed? Interestingly, Miss Brent is the only one to demand water instead of a drink. It's possible that Rogers poisoned them, but everyone else was drinking too and didn't die and since he would be the first suspect, it'd be really dumb of him to poison just one of them.
Mecca-Benghazi fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 10, 2013 23:15
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Alright, so following the theme, I guess so far it fits: One choked his little self and then there were nine. Nine little Indian boys sat up very late; One overslept himself and then there were eight. (Perhaps coming up in the next chapters? One person can't sleep, sneaks around the house and dies?) Ten little Indian boys traveling in Devon; One said he'd stay there and then there were seven. (They all leave the island, but only one doesn't return? Perhaps the guy with the expensive car (the doctor I believe)? I wouldn't just leave it there and he said he'd make some excuse to get away. If I'm correct it was him stating that.) Seven little Indian boys chopping up sticks; One chopped himself in halves and then there were six. Six little Indian boys playing with a hive; A bumblebee stung one and then there were five. Five little Indian boys going in for law; One got in Chancery and then there were four. (One went to the cops?) Four little Indian boys going out to sea; A red herring swallowed one and then there were three. (One tries to leave, not just to go off the island for a quick break, but trying to escape?) Three little Indian boys walking in the zoo; A big bear hugged one of them and then there were two. Two little Indian boys sitting in the sun; One got frizzled up and then there was one. One little Indian boy left all alone; He went and hanged himself and then there were none. (Suicide?) But I count 11 people inside the house. So the last one must be the murderer. Grawl fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 10, 2013 23:52
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