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Zwabu posted:Never.more, do you think that the type of workplace discussion of politics that involves shouted talking points, no agreement, and then the parties being angry at each other afterwards is better than no discussion of politics? I dont talk about politics at work  , or with anyone but very close family / friends. My step brother for instance is very much on the left while I am on the right. We have had -GREAT- conversations over many a beer discussing a lot of the issues raised in this thread. Neither of us gets upset and view points are aired (and defended staunchly). However, when trying to have those same conversations with other people (even with the best of intentions) emotions very quickly get involved and it devolves into name calling or pissed off silence. Honestly from a societal standpoint, I think the pissed off silence is healthier than not saying anything at all. At least at that point people realize that people they come into contact with daily (whom they presumable get along with) honesty hold differing view points. I however, am not willing to deal with the lost friendships / working relationships that entails. Hypocritical given the position I have put forward in this thread I know, but there it is. Its one of the reasons I like dissenting viewpoints in the news media, I am being lazy and hoping the media does the work for me.Other Points: 1. Dissenting View Points: I am very happy to talk about dissenting view points in this thread, but I am new to SA. I didnt want to irritate people by derailing a thread that was specifically about the news media. If going off on tangents is cool, then I am game. 2. Cordyceps: I can certainly appreciate your view point. I would strongly offer one word of caution however. I watch Fox quite a bit (as well as CNN and MSNBC), I have yet to see them air a story that is actually racist with the intent of being racist. On the homosexual front, they certainly air stories on traditional values that quite honestly royally screw you over. I can appreciate that and putting myself in your shoes, I might feel the exact same way. To answer your questions directly, on a political front I think there should be a hard separation of church and state; in other words everyone be allowed to gain civil unions (or whatever word we want to utilize in a legal context: marriage, etc) with all the rights associated with it. The religious aspect of any such ceremony should be a private affair that is between the individuals involved and whatever denomination they choose to participate in (yes that means some churches will not approve of gay marriage, but that is their right to). On a purely religious angle, I freely admit I am a practicing Christian and as such will approach this from that faith angle. Christianity holds that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, thats the entire point of accepting Christ as Savior. The Bible does name homosexuality a sin, it also names a lot of other things everyone does as sinning. In other words, your not any more hosed over than the rest of us are; nor quite frankly any farther from salvation than the rest of us are. That is not a very popular claim in modern culture, but it is the one that is honestly held by a lot on the right. As for the civil rights movement, that was an extremely ugly time in American politics and one that is hopefully farther and farther behind us. Were wrong views held and ugly mistakes made, certainly. As I stated above, my view is that everyone should be treated equally under the eyes of the law period. Painting modern conservatism and conservative media as racist is counter productive. As you stated concerning the left, this isnt a philosophical exercise on the side of the conservatives either. They see our national debt soaring and issues like immigrating hammering states like Arizona and Texas. Emotions are high on both sides, that is why I think its important to try and look at it as objectively as possible. If you dont, it turns into an argument based only on emotion and goes no-where. 3. MSNBC is Not Left Wing: MSNCB themselves indicate they are left focused. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSNBC_controversies#cite_note-NYT-3 4. Creation vs Big Bang: Someone below posted the "religion vs science" argument, didnt respond to that but I will offer this if tangents are ok (assuming they are given the responses I received). The religion vs science argument is an interesting one, they both depend upon faith. Religion is an attempt to explain how we are here and how our world works via a deity and belief in said deity. In other words "God created the world and us". Science attempts to explain how we are here and how our world works via the scientific method, or in it's most simplistic form cause and effect. In other words, this happened and caused that etc. If you take the chain far enough along you get the creation of the universe in one direction and modern day in the other. Both religion and the Big Bang theory however rely upon faith and faith alone. The religious angle relies on faith in an all powerful deity. The science angle relies on something coming from nothing, otherwise known as the Big Bang. That is the interesting part of the Big Bang, our understanding of it and the rest of science behind it is based on cause an effect. Yet at the most crucial instance of explanation for determining how we are here (ie the moment of creation), science waves it hands and says "something came from nothing"; in other words you have an effect without a cause. In the end both are entirely based on faith. Honestly, I highly doubt any of us will know the true answer until we die; thats why it's called faith. 5. Truth is In the Middle: Someone below posted I am trying to claim the truth is in the middle. That is close but not truly what I am trying to get at. I do believe there is a true or right to every situation. However, that is the crux of the drat issue. Someone else may strongly disagree with me. Lets take a fun current hot topic like the American National Debt. As a conservative I believe we are rapidly building a debt that will cripple our economy and future generations if it is not solved. Look at Greece for example. I also believe that harsh cuts are needed to our domestic spending to end the national deficit and start trying to pay down the national debt. I would not cut our military nearly as much. I honestly believe that is the true or right way to do it. However, there are lots of other people in America who believe I am entirely wrong and we should cut the military and not domestic spending. There are probably even more people who are in the middle or some mix of the two. Great, so what do we do now? My gut feeling is that when we finally tackle it, no one is going to be entirely happy and everyone is going to see things they want go. How we come to that compromise is through dialogue and trying to understand why someone would feel so very differently than you. In some cases you get to someone to switch their view points (civil rights in a great example of that), in some cases you just get the best compromise you can hack out. Critical to all of that, however, is sitting down and hearing all sides of the issue. Never.More fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Jun 2, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 22:53
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Never.More posted:Lets take a fun current hot topic like the American National Debt. As a conservative I believe we are rapidly building a debt that will cripple our economy and future generations if it is not solved. Look at Greece for example. I also believe that harsh cuts are needed to our domestic spending to end the national deficit The only way I can describe this is "cute". Austerity measures in Europe have worked really, really well. Especially for Greece. I would post information to back this up, but it's not worth the time or effort since you're not looking at having a discussion.
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Jun 2, 2013 22:55
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HootTheOwl posted:If I recall correctly Colbert had a segment that covered it triggered by either the right doing the thing you mentioned or because or Superman renouncing his American citizenship. Citizen? More like illegal alien. Did he go through the proper paperwork and all before crashing his ship here? I think not.
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Jun 2, 2013 22:55
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Never.More posted:2. Cordyceps: I can certainly appreciate your view point. I would strongly offer one word of caution however. I watch Fox quite a bit (as well as CNN and MSNBC), I have yet to see them air a story that is actually racist with the intent of being racist.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:01
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Never.More posted:The question I ask, are you? I am not claiming Fox news is perfect or unbiased, far from it. However, can you accept the same thing for the other news outlets? Several of Fox's mistakes were aired. So lets share some more. So we should be willing to be lied to because sometimes the left sort of does something vaguely similar maybe once, while Fox News lies and deliberately falsely reports, which is fine be ause the truth is in the middle? Why haven't you answered any of the points posited to you? Why are you defending Fox News? Where did your statistics there come from, friend? Why post?
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Jun 2, 2013 23:01
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Phone posted:Austerity measures in Europe have worked really, really well. Especially for Greece. I would post information to back this up, but it's not worth the time or effort since you're not looking at having a discussion. To be fair, if he's getting his news from Fox: http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/04/29/fox-shields-austerity-push-from-economic-realit/193824
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Jun 2, 2013 23:02
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I'm not a big fan of MSNBC. My biggest criticism of them is probably that they omit stories and avoid guests that might endanger their narrative (their narrative being basically that everything Democrats do is good no matter what and everything Republicans do is bad.) It's also been years since I've seen a guest on MSNBC who was remotely critical of Israel. The last time I remember was Amy Goodman getting into it with Chris Mathews over the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah. I can't imagine someone like Goodman being allowed on MSNBC these days. Of course none of that is remotely comparable to the way Fox News and AM talk radio shows constantly make poo poo up. It's really a whole different game that they're playing. If you only ever got your news from MSNBC at most you would end up uninformed about stories that executives at NBC don't want you to know about. If you only get your news from Fox News you're going to end up radically misinformed about a lot of basic stuff, like the fact that global warming is real or that Mitt Romney was not going to win the 2012 presidential election.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:05
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Babylon Astronaut posted:Oh come the gently caress on. Why did you feel the need to put a qualifier on that last sentence if Fox News does not air racist opinions? Hey listen, he's not racist, but
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Jun 2, 2013 23:05
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THE GAYEST POSTER posted:To be fair, if he's getting his news from Fox: Facts are a liberal conspiracy, I know better with my good ol' American common sense! 
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Jun 2, 2013 23:08
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Phone posted:The only way I can describe this is "cute". Maybe we have a different view of worked really, really well. Reacts to Greek Measures: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%9612_Greek_protests Greek National Debt: http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/greece The idea is to avoid mass violent riots if possible. Just looking at the numbers alone, that is a massive debt. The only reason Greece was able to even implement the very painful measures was because the rest of the EU was able to basically float them a massive loan. Think about what happens if the US ever got into such a situation. I very much doubt there is an economic power-house strong enough to float the US a lot equivalent to what it took to pull Greece off the brink of utter ruin. Just look at the wikipedia article of Greece's current economy. Their debt to GDP ration is rising not shrinking, because they ended up in a recession. Do I think Greece will eventually pull out of this? Yes. Will it be a VERY long and painful road, oh yes. Greek Economy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece
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Jun 2, 2013 23:09
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Never.More posted:. Cordyceps: I can certainly appreciate your view point. I would strongly offer one word of caution however. I watch Fox quite a bit (as well as CNN and MSNBC), I have yet to see them air a story that is actually racist with the intent of being racist. On the homosexual front, they certainly air stories on traditional values that quite honestly royally screw you over. I can appreciate that and putting myself in your shoes, I might feel the exact same way. To answer your questions directly, on a political front I think there should be a hard separation of church and state; in other words everyone be allowed to gain civil unions (or whatever word we want to utilize in a legal context: marriage, etc) with all the rights associated with it. The religious aspect of any such ceremony should be a private affair that is between the individuals involved and whatever denomination they choose to participate in (yes that means some churches will not approve of gay marriage, but that is their right to). On a purely religious angle, I freely admit I am a practicing Christian and as such will approach this from that faith angle. Christianity holds that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, thats the entire point of accepting Christ as Savior. The Bible does name homosexuality a sin, it also names a lot of other things everyone does as sinning. In other words, your not any more hosed over than the rest of us are; nor quite frankly any farther from salvation than the rest of us are. That is not a very popular claim in modern culture, but it is the one that is honestly held by a lot on the right. As for the civil rights movement, that was an extremely ugly time in American politics and one that is hopefully farther and farther behind us. Were wrong views held and ugly mistakes made, certainly. As I stated above, my view is that everyone should be treated equally under the eyes of the law period. Painting modern conservatism and conservative media as racist is counter productive. As you stated concerning the left, this isnt a philosophical exercise on the side of the conservatives either. They see our national debt soaring and issues like immigrating hammering states like Arizona and Texas. Emotions are high on both sides, that is why I think its important to try and look at it as objectively as possible. If you dont, it turns into an argument based only on emotion and goes no-where. Neither of the things you mention conservatives worrying about directly affects their ability to live and work and be happy. IT's worrying about a hypothetical debt scenario (based on no evidence at all), or worrying about the Mexicans (which is racist). You totally missed my point. I would hazard to guess that you are a white, straight, Christian man with enough money not to be facing poverty, so talking about all this is an abstract exercise for you. So you'll excuse me if I don't accord legitimacy to a bigoted viewpoint that tells me I'm a sinner for being born the way I am. And Fox doesn't have to come out and announce their racism for them to be racist. And it really doesn't matter if MSNBC claims to be left-leaning, as their position on economic policy is anything but. Also, your whole Creation versus Science thing is a laughable false equivalence. Science makes no claim to universality (such as what existed prior to the Big Bang) and is explicitly changeable based on new information. Biblical literalism does claim universal truth status, and cannot change in spite of the fact that it contains claims that are provably false. Can you see the difference between these two? Evidence versus belief in spite of evidence? That's the essential dichotomy between Right Wing media and other media. Though scientists don't claim it was nothing before the Big Bang, rather there was a spacetime singularity that exploded. It would help if you actually knew what you were talking about in general before trying to pontificate on it.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:09
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Babylon Astronaut posted:Oh come the gently caress on. Why did you feel the need to put a qualifier on that last sentence if Fox News does not air racist opinions? Because I have not seen every single story Fox ever aired. All the ones I have seen are not racist, however it is certainly possible one was put up. If you know of one, please post and we can talk about it.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:10
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Never.More posted:Maybe we have a different view of worked really, really well. Greece was part of a currency union that crippled the moves it could take to help its economy. A recession is the natural result of cutting spending during an economic downturn. IF Greece hadn't have been part of the Eurozone, and hadn't been pressured to try to pay back their debt to predatory European banks, things would have played out very differently. You haven't actually put forward an argument about national debt, all you said is "DEBT BAD! GREECE!". Please explain to me how the US is in any way similar to the Greek situation, with explicit reference to the Macroeconomic conditions that led to Greece's default.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:13
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Never.More posted:Why are not all viewpoints equivalent? Some viewpoints are less valid than others.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:14
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Never.More posted:Maybe we have a different view of worked really, really well. Please at least take a Macro 101 course before you try to explain to people how national debt works.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:15
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I really feel like I'm touching the poop here, but had this typed up and tabbed out to other stuff for a while. I'm mostly posting because I don't think the lack of leftist media in America has been hammered in deeply enough. This was in reply to your first five-point thing, Never.More : 1. Talking politics with coworkers or strangers is totally luck of the draw. As long as you have time to actually discuss something in-depth instead of slinging talking points for two minutes, two people basing their views in the same reality can typically have a civil talk. 2. Mainstream media isn't left-wing (I'll admit to typically avoiding TV news because it's sensationalist crap with commercials). Please give some specific examples, because you're probably working from a distorted view of what constitutes leftist politics. I'd consider genuine leftism as anywhere from Distributism or progressive Welfare-Capitalism all the way to Communism or Anarchism. American liberalism (in both our government and media) tends to be anywhere from "right side of history" consensus centrism through sometimes Welfare-Capitalism with its toes dipped in Social-Democracy, which leaves out the bulk of center-left and far-left perspectives. 3. There isn't a polite way to convey that reality isn't a democracy, and even broad consensus in a particular group doesn't change the facts. See every "issues" debate in mainstream news; treating qualified scientific experts and PAC operatives/lobbyists with equal regard isn't a healthy way to discuss anything that's actually quantifiable or falsifiable. You can be as flexible as you want when the debate is purely one of philosophy, but we can look at real numbers on policy issues. Like healthcare and educational system outcome comparisons, per-capita prosperity under different economic regulations, prison systems and drug laws, taxation schemes, rights for ethnic and sexual minorities. The numbers show we're squandering a lot of time, effort and blood to maintain our status quo. Don McLeroy can complain about scientists pushing "evolutionism" all he wants, but evolution is observable and real while creationism just isn't valid science. And no matter how many times Coulter says the president is a socialist, that doesn't change the facts in real life. Obama is definitely a capitalist, albeit one who supports social welfare programs. Obama is still a nationalist, though less jingoistic than his predecessor. Obama still believes in American exceptionalism, as is evidenced through the current state of foreign policy both in force and diplomacy. Anywhere else in the developed world, he'd be considered a conservative. 4. Pretty much all of our major media are going to have a bias toward anglo/western and capitalist sensibilities, and sure some outlets such as NPR and BBC will have a more metropolitan or cosmopolitan leaning than others. But there isn't a leftist tinge to mainstream media unless you lump in basic human rights (gay rights, female rights, habeas corpus, etc) as inherently leftist. There are plenty of women who are mostly traditional and conservative yet still want access to abortion and equal pay. Plenty of gay dudes who would've voted Romney were it not for GOP intolerance. Plenty of minorities who can get down with religious candidates but also understand the value of social safety nets because of firsthand or secondhand experience in poverty. Plenty of those people are still mostly conservative, and it's not just superficial identity politics luring them away from the GOP, it's real politics scaring them away. Look at the framing on tax increases - it's portrayed as exclusively left-wing and anti-freedom. Taxation isn't a left-wing action, it's how you implement the taxes and what you do with the revenue that determine their politics. 5. Projection coupled with false dichotomy. edit:ShadowCatBoy hit was I was going to post here for hard evidence on Fox. The issue is it's not "both viewpoints" but instead two ends of a handful of sociopolitical issues, very rarely probing into deeper cultural or economic frameworks. Bias manifests not just in how any given media persona discusses an issue, but also in which issues actually get coverage in the first place. And just because someone refutes your points brusquely doesn't make their commentary equivalent to literally saying gays are provoking natural disasters and poor people are like wild animals; the first action is just being rude and the second is genuine demonization.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:15
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Never.More posted:Because I have not seen every single story Fox ever aired. All the ones I have seen are not racist, however it is certainly possible one was put up. If you know of one, please post and we can talk about it. Giving more than 0 seconds to any story, article, or person related to the birther movement. Next.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:16
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He's probably actually thinking of Estonia, which is booming and has cut pension, wages, increased the retirement age to 65, and cut back on personal subsidies. But they also provide single payer healthcare, free education, banned race/orientation discrimination, and is generally, on a whole, more beneficial than the US in general. They also went into the recession with a pretty big surplus to cushion the worst of it. Estonia is the Republican example of austerity working, but their austerity hasn't been as heavy as others and they still have a general social safety net that works. quote:Why are not all viewpoints equivalent? That's hippy poo poo.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:21
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Never.More posted:Just look at the wikipedia article of Greece's current economy. Their debt to GDP ration is rising not shrinking, because they ended up in a recession. Do I think Greece will eventually pull out of this? Yes. Will it be a VERY long and painful road, oh yes. You mean, cyclical fiscal policy is counter productive in that a recession worsened by austerity only makes their financial position even more untenable? You don't say! 
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Jun 2, 2013 23:23
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:He's probably actually thinking of Estonia, which is booming and has cut pension, wages, increased the retirement age to 65, and cut back on personal subsidies. There's also a difference between implementing rationalization of government services during an economic upturn, and cutting social spending when corporate & private spending is down. It's not even a question of being a hardcore socialist or anything, but public spending being cut during a recession is the worst way to go about tackling the size and scope of government if that's an issue you care about. If they'd really wanted to address some of this stuff why didn't they start working on it in the decade preceding the housing crash?
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Jun 2, 2013 23:24
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HootTheOwl posted:If I recall correctly Colbert had a segment that covered it triggered by either the right doing the thing you mentioned or because or Superman renouncing his American citizenship. Should have based the whole thing on Red Son. The outrage would be beyond precious.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:26
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Never.More posted:Maybe we have a different view of worked really, really well. You have a really simple understanding of debt and probably everything else, which is not surprising since being right-wing means you only ever assign agency to one party at a time, the lender in this case. The US public debt will be treated basically the same by its creditors whether it's tiny or massive. If you owe someone a million dollars, they own you. If you owe them a trillion dollars, you own them. The global dependence on US debt was basically proven when some typical Republican horseshit in Congress last summer caused fear in the markets which caused people to flee right the hell back to US treasury bonds. The actual holders of US debt likely know a bit more about our financial landscape and prospects than a bunch of fearmongering poor-hating reactionaries, and they continue to judge us a near-zero risk investment. So kindly stop shittalking America and trying to gum up the works so your party of children can cling bitterly to power they are less qualified to wield than my dogs.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:29
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Cordyceps Headache posted:Neither of the things you mention conservatives worrying about directly affects their ability to live and work and be happy. IT's worrying about a hypothetical debt scenario (based on no evidence at all), or worrying about the Mexicans (which is racist). You totally missed my point. I would hazard to guess that you are a white, straight, Christian man with enough money not to be facing poverty, so talking about all this is an abstract exercise for you. So you'll excuse me if I don't accord legitimacy to a bigoted viewpoint that tells me I'm a sinner for being born the way I am. Right ... this is going no where fast in the effort to have an intellectual discussion on the realities of needing to hear opposing viewpoints. Moving to name calling or playing the "YOUR RACIST" card is extremely un-helpful in such situations. But lets give this one more shot to keep it at something like an intellectual discussion. First, my family background on both sides is about as poor as you can get. Grandparents busted their asses to drag themselves out of dirt poor poverty and to give their kids a better life. Parents busted their asses to give me and my brother a better life, and no I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth. As for bigoted, I can easily respond to that with "I refused to listen to a religious intolerant view point that degenerates me for daring to have a faith, your the type of person that probably calls all Muslims terrorist ". To be clear, I doubt you are. But moving to degeneration of another persons faith while implying they are bigoted is where such things end up. Lets stop that now. I stated quite clearly that I believe everyone should have equal rights. News Media: The entire point of this debate was what news media were portraying. Several people indicate they believe Fox News is racist. If so, please link the article or show that demonstrates this. If not, there is no proof for it. As for MSNBC, I dont even know where to go with your response. When the news outlet itself is saying "yes we are left leaning" thats about as good as I can give you to show why I consider them left leaning. Big Bang vs Creation: First, the Bible doesnt list how old the Earth is. Certain people may try to calculate it, sure (and are probably wrong). But all the Bible really says is that God created the universe. They time unit utilized in Genesis is days, but in the Bible it also says a "day to God is like a thousand years to man"; so that time unit is generally accepted as God created whats around us ... trying to pin an exact number on it is silly (based on the Bible alone). Second when people utilize the Big Bang Theory to attempt to disprove Creation Theory, they are very much stating that "this is how the universe came to be - God didnt create it". You are correct in your analysis the current Big Bang Theory, however you are missing the point I was making. If you take it back farther, what created the Singularity? In other words, if your going to utilize the Big Bang Theory to attempt to disprove the existence of a deity ... you at some point have to create something from nothing. That breaks our understanding of how the world works. I dont think you were the original poster on that argument either, dont remember who was. Back on Topic: The entire point of this was to indicate that there is another side to the story and one that you should at least consider. If for no other reason than about half of America (if your in America) feels that way to one degree or another. Or at least they vote that way because they feel strongly enough on some particular issue to cast their vote. Thats the importance of having both sides aired and considered. If for no other reason than to take a moment and think about why the other side is saying what they are. Never.More fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Jun 2, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 23:30
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A good specific example of racism in Fox News' coverage is the endless screen time given to the two New Black Panther Party guys (who were actually registered poll workers if I recall) being in front of the one polling station in Philadelphia. The organization has hardly any members and is of no importance. There was no significant effect on the vote or the election. The endless coverage of the story was merely to put on the screen over and over again a picture of two black dudes who no doubt are terrifying to a lot of Fox viewers by virtue of their negritude. And sort of imply that somehow the election result was stolen and not valid because of this, without any backup evidence. But mainly to stoke racial resentment and fear.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:35
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Never.More posted:Right ... this is going no where fast in the effort to have an intellectual discussion on the realities of needing to hear opposing viewpoints. Moving to name calling or playing the "YOUR RACIST" card is extremely un-helpful in such situations. But lets give this one more shot to keep it at something like an intellectual discussion. First, my family background on both sides is about as poor as you can get. Grandparents busted their asses to drag themselves out of dirt poor poverty and to give their kids a better life. Parents busted their asses to give me and my brother a better life, and no I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth. As for bigoted, I can easily respond to that with "I refused to listen to a religious intolerant view point that degenerates me for daring to have a faith, your the type of person that probably calls all Muslims terrorist ". To be clear, I doubt you are. But moving to degeneration of another persons faith while implying they are bigoted is where such things end up. Lets stop that now. I stated quite clearly that I believe everyone should have equal rights on the political angle. My parents and grandparents were also relatively poor, but I lived a normal middle class existence. When I asked if you were poor, I'm referencing specifically privation and poverty in your life. Have you had to make the choice between food and shelter? This is not the same as having relatively poor family history. And I don't use the term bigot as an ad hominem. To wit: Merriam-Webster posted:a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance. I don't care where you get your opinion that I am a sinner for being the way I am. It doesn't change the fact that you are a bigot, even if you make the stupid non-committal of "we are all sinners". Christianity is a huge source of bigotry in the US, and pretending its not isn't going to change things for the better for all the groups oppressed by bigoted beliefs. Edit: And gay marriage is hardly the only issue LGBT people face in the US, or hell the west in general. The culture is toxic against us, and our rights are always contingent on acceptance by the majority. We are still targeted for hate crimes all the time, trans-people most of all, who are also the groups least likely to be advocated for. Telling people that LGBT people are sinners helps normalize the hatred of them, even if you believe civil unions should be allowed. Political Whores fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jun 2, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 23:40
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I guess there is no racism on fox if you are deaf to dogwhistles but anyone who isn't a conceited idiot will be able to tell you what their intention is when they spend weeks harping against muslims and mexicans welfare queens and entitlements. I am so sick of the whole bullshit 2 sides to a story thing because it is only ever used to give a factually incorrect position more weight then it deserves, generally those who push that position are just either intellectually lazy or are attempting to pull the wool over other peoples eyes. *I mean sure,respected individuals and reality and all facts and statistics point to X being true, but here's some dude who gets paid to say the opposite, let's each give em 5 minutes to speak and consider that a job well done. Harry Joe fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jun 2, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 23:41
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agarjogger posted:You have a really simple understanding of debt and probably everything else, which is not surprising since being right-wing means you only ever assign agency to one party at a time, the lender in this case. The US public debt will be treated basically the same by its creditors whether it's tiny or massive. If you owe someone a million dollars, they own you. If you owe them a trillion dollars, you own them. The global dependence on US debt was basically proven when some typical Republican horseshit in Congress last summer caused fear in the markets which caused people to flee right the hell back to US treasury bonds. The actual holders of US debt likely know a bit more about our financial landscape and prospects than a bunch of fearmongering poor-hating reactionaries, and they continue to judge us a near-zero risk investment. So kindly stop shittalking America and trying to gum up the works so your party of children can cling bitterly to power they are less qualified to wield than my dogs. .. you just posted that having massive national debt is a good thing because it means your creditors cant afford for you to go down. We are already starting to see the consequences of our debt, we lost our AAA credit rating in 2011. At some point the idea that we can spend / borrow anything we want and be fine ends. It only works right now at all is because of how massive our economy. The problem with our national debt is not only the sum itself, but the interest it is gathering. If we continue, sooner or latter our creditors will stop agreeing to buy more of our bonds. At that point we are well and truly hosed. It may not happen in our life time, but it will happen. To put some hard numbers to it, our national debt as of 1046 GMT on 2 June 2013 is 16,745,653,684,049.09 USD. Using our estimated populate, each citizen owes 52,996.38 USD. A little over fifty thousand per citizen. Fiscal responsibility is not something you can brush off with comments like "you just hate poor people". It is a reality that is going to royally screw us over if we dont do something about it quick. Because of interest, the longer we put it off the worst it gets. Its like a festering wound that you dont want to do anything about because it will hurt, it only gets worse the longer you ignore it. As I posted before, looking at it rationally we are all going to get hit hard when our government finally bites the bullet and tackles this. Saying "you dont understand debt, we are fine" is only going to make the problem worse when we finally break down and deal with it (or are forced to because no one will buy our bonds anymore).
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Jun 2, 2013 23:51
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What are you scared of? Do you think spending cuts are the solution? If so, why do you think we shouldn't cut spending to the military? Do you think raising taxes is a viable solution? Phone fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Jun 2, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 23:53
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Never.More posted:To put some hard numbers to it, our national debt as of 1046 GMT on 2 June 2013 is 16,745,653,684,049.09 USD. Using our estimated populate, each citizen owes 52,996.38 USD. A little over fifty thousand per citizen. This framing is extremely disingenuous, at it implies each citizen personally owes 50 grand of debt. That's not how government debt works and I hate seeing it framed this way. Your understanding of how government debt works is flawed. Have you ever compared the US budget to a household's?
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Jun 2, 2013 23:53
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The credit rating thing was not solely or even primarily because of the debt itself, but it was because of the brinksmanship showdown forced by the GOP congress to threaten default being interpreted as a dysfunctional government by the raters.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:54
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Never.More posted:.. you just posted that having massive national debt is a good thing because it means your creditors cant afford for you to go down. We are already starting to see the consequences of our debt, we lost our AAA credit rating in 2011. At some point the idea that we can spend / borrow anything we want and be fine ends. It only works right now at all is because of how massive our economy. The problem with our national debt is not only the sum itself, but the interest it is gathering. If we continue, sooner or latter our creditors will stop agreeing to buy more of our bonds. At that point we are well and truly hosed. It may not happen in our life time, but it will happen. To put some hard numbers to it, our national debt as of 1046 GMT on 2 June 2013 is 16,745,653,684,049.09 USD. Using our estimated populate, each citizen owes 52,996.38 USD. A little over fifty thousand per citizen. Fiscal responsibility is not something you can brush off with comments like "you just hate poor people". It is a reality that is going to royally screw us over if we dont do something about it quick. Because of interest, the longer we put it off the worst it gets. Its like a festering wound that you dont want to do anything about because it will hurt, it only gets worse the longer you ignore it. As I posted before, looking at it rationally we are all going to get hit hard when our government finally bites the bullet and tackles this. Saying "you dont understand debt, we are fine" is only going to make the problem worse when we finally break down and deal with it (or are forced to because no one will buy our bonds anymore). Ahahahahahaha, please tell me more about the genius insight of Moody's or S&P. E: and as Zwabu said, the reasoning behind the downgrade was because of the political brinksmanship of the Republicans. Not that it should matter, since the Big Three rating agencies have absoluteness atrocious records on pretty much all of their analysis, and quoting that as a relevant talking point shows how ignorant you are about actual economics. Political Whores fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Jun 2, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 23:55
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Never.More posted:we lost our AAA credit rating in 2011. Credit rating was lost because republicans were holding the nation hostage and all the austerity talk was scaring the gently caress out of the people who actually understood economics. Also your comments have shown you really have no understanding of national debt and what it means and how countries can choose to deal with it. First thing to realize when talking about national debts, they are nothing at all like household debts, they don't have the same effects or solutions and in some cases, you actually want your country to be in debt as long as you are using that money for longer term gain (which we unfortunately are not). There is a lot to complain about but when someone comes in saying "debt debt debt" with no qualifiers as to exactly why they think it's so bad all it tells me is they have fallen hook line and sinker for the right wing talking points where they will use the debt excuse to push their own personal agendas.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:58
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Never.More posted:.. you just posted that having massive national debt is a good thing because it means your creditors cant afford for you to go down. We are already starting to see the consequences of our debt, we lost our AAA credit rating in 2011. At some point the idea that we can spend / borrow anything we want and be fine ends. It only works right now at all is because of how massive our economy. The problem with our national debt is not only the sum itself, but the interest it is gathering. If we continue, sooner or latter our creditors will stop agreeing to buy more of our bonds. At that point we are well and truly hosed. It may not happen in our life time, but it will happen. To put some hard numbers to it, our national debt as of 1046 GMT on 2 June 2013 is 16,745,653,684,049.09 USD. Using our estimated populate, each citizen owes 52,996.38 USD. A little over fifty thousand per citizen. Fiscal responsibility is not something you can brush off with comments like "you just hate poor people". It is a reality that is going to royally screw us over if we dont do something about it quick. Because of interest, the longer we put it off the worst it gets. Its like a festering wound that you dont want to do anything about because it will hurt, it only gets worse the longer you ignore it. As I posted before, looking at it rationally we are all going to get hit hard when our government finally bites the bullet and tackles this. Saying "you dont understand debt, we are fine" is only going to make the problem worse when we finally break down and deal with it (or are forced to because no one will buy our bonds anymore). You're not even aware that $7,310,000,000,000 of the "debt" is owned by the federal and state governments, heh. And $4,300,000,000,000 is owed to domestic companies and individuals.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:58
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Cordyceps Headache posted:My parents and grandparents were also relatively poor, but I lived a normal middle class existence. When I asked if you were poor, I'm referencing specifically privation and poverty in your life. Have you had to make the choice between food and shelter? This is not the same as having relatively poor family history. Ok, this went no where fast. I made very clear my view that everyone should be treated equally. If you want to continue this "bigot" claim the only response I can make is that your intolerant of others religions and attack them for it is indicative of a bigot. I didnt ask you to follow Christianity, if you dont believe in that faith that is your business and has no bearing on my view of you. Calling me a bigot when I already said you should be treated equally is extremely unproductive. Falsely demonizing other peoples ideals because they dont agree with your own is also unproductive. If anyone wants to have an actual debate on the news media / topics respond to me and I will give you my view.
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Jun 2, 2013 23:58
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Never.More posted:.. you just posted that having massive national debt is a good thing because it means your creditors cant afford for you to go down. We are already starting to see the consequences of our debt, we lost our AAA credit rating in 2011. From the horse's mouth. It was not over the debt per se, but the gridlock and unwillingness of certain persons to raise revenues to pay it. I have a question: Do you think we pay more or less, as a percentage of GDP, in taxes today than in the 50s and 60s?
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Jun 2, 2013 23:59
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Never.More posted:Ok, this went no where fast. I made very clear my view that everyone should be treated equally. If you want to continue this "bigot" claim the only response I can make is that your intolerant of others religions and attack them for it is indicative of a bigot. I didnt ask you to follow Christianity, if you dont believe in that faith that is your business and has no bearing on my view of you. Calling me a bigot when I already said you should be treated equally is extremely unproductive. Falsely demonizing other peoples ideals because they dont agree with your own is also unproductive. If anyone wants to have an actual debate on the news media / topics respond to me and I will give you my view. If you believe everyone should be treated equally, then act that way and don't vote republican or consider yourself right wing because their major position at this moment is white males are better then the rest. It doesn't matter what you believe if you then go and vote for the guy trying to take away rights for gay men, women and minorities because your actions have spoken for you already, no matter how much of a hypocrite you are.
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Jun 3, 2013 00:00
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"We have to drastically cut spending now, or else at some unknown point in the future, we'll be forced to drastically cut spending." Of course the latter may never happen, and linking Wikipedia articles that only hurt your point isn't going to prove it will, Never.More. What is the effect of government spending on the economy?
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Jun 3, 2013 00:01
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Install Gentoo posted:You're not even aware that $7,310,000,000,000 of the "debt" is owned by the federal and state governments, heh. The fact that you wrote yourself an IOU does not mean the money has to come from somewhere eventually. Taking that figure out of the debt is not helpful to the discussion. Think of it this way, if the IOUs get to big the fed only has two real options. Either print a lot more money and devalue the currency (to pay for the IOUs), or borrow money from elsewhere to pay for their own IOUs.
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Jun 3, 2013 00:01
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Phone posted:Giving more than 0 seconds to any story, article, or person related to the birther movement. Glenn Beck: Obama hates white people. http://youtu.be/MIZDnpPafaA Brian Kilmede: America's problems stem from "marrying other species." http://youtu.be/xqbL9-HzxH4 If you want, peruse this study of Fox News' history of race baiting: http://mediamatters.org/research/2011/06/13/updated-fox-news-long-history-of-race-baiting/180529 Babylon Astronaut fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Jun 3, 2013 |
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Jun 3, 2013 00:03
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Never.More posted:The fact that you wrote yourself an IOU does not mean the money has to come from somewhere eventually. Taking that figure out of the debt is not helpful to the discussion. Think of it this way, if the IOUs get to big the fed only has two real options. Either print a lot more money and devalue the currency (to pay for the IOUs), or borrow money from elsewhere to pay for their own IOUs. Quick explain the difference between micro and macro economics.
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Jun 3, 2013 00:05
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