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Had a look at the NPD numbers for sales in America. Pretty sad reading right now. The Wii U hasn't ever outsold the 360 or PS3 over a single month. In total it's been outsold since launch 3:1 by the 360 and around 2:1 by the PS3, and even marginally by the Wii. On Amazon.com the top multiplatform game (Black Ops 2) is #11 best selling video game on the 360, #16 on the PS3 and #1283 on the Wii U. NSMB Wii is #76, NSMB U is #167. The best selling game on the Wii U (New Super Luigi U) is #85. That's where the Wii U is in America. It looks better on Amazon.co.jp: Pikmin 3 and Luigi U both in the top 30 overall. A price cut in the $200 range wouldn't turn this over. They need that and some kind of bananas game with serious marketing to move hardware.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:08
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:People are celebrating the fact that the WiiU and Vita are not really taking off for some reason, but everyone is assuming the Xbox and PS4 are gonna come out and sell billions because they just will. At this point I'm starting to think both of them are going to have weak launches too, although probably not as weak as the Wii U. People are assuming some level of success for those consoles because there's reason to believe they'll have real third-party support, at the very least for the major franchises.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:15
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Edmund Honda posted:Had a look at the NPD numbers for sales in America. Pretty sad reading right now. The Wii U hasn't ever outsold the 360 or PS3 over a single month. In total it's been outsold since launch 3:1 by the 360 and around 2:1 by the PS3, and even marginally by the Wii. One problem with looking at NPD is that the more successful Nintendo games tend to do well in a way which doesn't chart there. They have long tails and continue to sell over their entire lifetime, in comparison to most games which are severely frontloaded . THat isn't to say the WiiU is secretly doing well, but that this also isn't a great metric. A big game that sells systems would do a lot for them. It wouldn't be all they need but their #1 problem at the moment is that the name recognition is in the toilet. They have to fix that before we can even begin to judge where they stand elsewhere because as it stands not even all hardcore gamers know the WiiU isn't a Wii add-on.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:15
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Bland posted:Considering Kinect itself sells for over $100 already (not even counting the fact that the new Kinect is supposedly a big upgrade tech wise) I can't see the Xbone selling for less than $450 unless Microsoft are willing to take a huge loss on each sale. Both the 360 and PS3 launched with huge losses at the pricepoints they were, it seemed to work out ok. Neither Sony nor Microsoft needs their console to be profitable out of the box. greatn posted:I don't understand how the WiiU is so expensive to produce. Or how the Gamepad is so expensive to produce. The screen it is using is ancient. I know it's filled with tech baubles but still how in the world is one of those things supposed to cost around $150. The 3ds costs less than that to make, and has nearly as many if not more baubles, plus actual processors and graphics chips. Just because everything in the Wii U is kind of slow or outdated, it doesn't mean they're actually going to be cheap to produce.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:16
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ImpAtom posted:Man, we've had people in this very thread flat-out say they want Nintendo to fail, either because they think that means they'll start going third party or because they dislike the company. You're underestimating how deeply people get entrenched in the console war. What people? I don't recall anyone in this thread saying they want Nintendo to fail. Some do feel that they'd be more successful as a third-party developer.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:19
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Install Gentoo posted:Just because everything in the Wii U is kind of slow or outdated, it doesn't mean they're actually going to be cheap to produce. At a certain point isn't it actually cheaper to use more modern, more readily mass produced components you don't have to specially contract out to a single supplier? Like honestly, competitive sized capacitive touchscreens are probably produced by the assload already, and the WiiU is the only device I can even think of with a resistive touchscreen that big. That has to increase the unit price long term over if they just went modern.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:21
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Toady posted:What people? I don't recall anyone in this thread saying they want Nintendo to fail. Some do feel that they'd be more successful as a third-party developer. I don't really want to look back through 27 pages (plus all the discussion in threads before) but there've been multiple people who've either said it or implied it. The same goes for every system mind you, you see it in the X-Box One and PS4 threads too. Console fans get loving crazy.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:24
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ImpAtom posted:One problem with looking at NPD is that the more successful Nintendo games tend to do well in a way which doesn't chart there. They have long tails and continue to sell over their entire lifetime, in comparison to most games which are severely frontloaded . THat isn't to say the WiiU is secretly doing well, but that this also isn't a great metric. I think a huge problem with the name recognition is right when they launched, THQ's Udraw tablet was in stores. I know I saw more than one confused mother try to get that in Wal Mart.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:28
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J Detan posted:I think a huge problem with the name recognition is right when they launched, THQ's Udraw tablet was in stores. I know I saw more than one confused mother try to get that in Wal Mart. I don't believe it. That would mean someone bought the UDraw.  But it's a bunch of factors. The Wii U name really sounds like an add-on, the fact that it uses the Wii controllers only contributes to that. It was a ridiculous marketing misstep, especially after the same thing happened with the 3DS.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:28
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With the terrible names, do you think that had to do with it being a Japanese company, where changing one symbol or adding a syllable is much more significant in their language than it might be in English?
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Jun 4, 2013 19:32
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ImpAtom posted:I don't believe it. That would mean someone bought the UDraw. Well, yeah, but I was thinking more along the lines that THQ's business ending fuckup made Nintendo's new console look like an addon (that, and CNN claiming it was an addon repeatedly). Actually, thinking about CNN, it would be kinda funny if Nintendo sued them for libel considering they were consistently giving the wrong information in a way that could damage Nintendo's business. At least that would get them in the public mind.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:32
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J Detan posted:If MS manages to get their console under $400 without taking massive losses that will haunt that console for the rest of its life, I'm willing to call them witches. If the WiiU costs 300 bucks, there's no way on earth the PS4 and XBone are gonna be less.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:33
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CapnAndy posted:Isn't the bulk of the Wii U's cost the stupid touchscreen? Xbone and PS4 are also using standard x86 poo poo instead of Nintendo's proprietary voodoo. I'm not remotely qualified to be an analyst or anything, but from a lay perspective it's pretty easy to see how Microsoft and Sony could be making their much better consoles for much less money, especially given the economies of scale they work at. I mean, RAM is cheap. That said, the 'stupid touchscreen' is one factor that makes the Wii U expensive to manufacture, but it's also not cheap silicon. The CPU offers comparable performance to 7th Gen consoles at half the power consumption and the Wii U GPU has over three times the imbedded EDRAM of the Xbox 360. The Xbone will likely be competitive in price with the Wii U for the reasons you mentioned, but I'm not so sure about the PS4.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:41
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You're forgetting the xbone is including the Kinect 2, which is their own gamepad-level expensive boondoggle. Of course the PS4 includes the Eye but I think that's much cheaper tech.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:51
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I think a general problem is that we are simply, collectively running out of great new ideas for games. Nintendo's strength was always to have great weird but functional games which took advantage of hardware, now they're running old ideas into the ground alongside some uninspired multiplatform FPS sports and racing titles. Look at the indie games scene on steam. Even those small, relatively free developers are running out of truly original ideas beyond "platformer with gimmick", "another tower defense game", "overwrought story based adventure game", "another zombie game with weird graphics" and "complex sim/roguelike". What's needed is a fresh return to basic genres instead of sequels, a game like Ni No Kuni was a masterstroke: basic gimmick-free RPG, only well crafted and high-selling. That's what they need.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:52
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Shibawanko posted:What's needed is a fresh return to basic genres instead of sequels, a game like Ni No Kuni was a masterstroke: basic gimmick-free RPG, only well crafted and high-selling. That's what they need. I don't think you can really use Ni No Kuni as an example of a unique anything in gaming.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:55
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Shibawanko posted:I think a general problem is that we are simply, collectively running out of great new ideas for games. Ecclesiastes posted:There is nothing new under the sun. That there are no new genres or storytelling tools does not mean there are no new stories we can tell with them. Especially when you're somehow using that to argue for not only less innovation, but anti-innovation.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:58
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Nintendo still needs to invent, though. Innovate. Go outside of their comfort zone. There are still new ideas out there, even if they are new versions of existing games. I'm not asking them to create a new genre. I very rarely see them go somewhere new at a large scale, and when they do if it falters even somewhat they retreat back indoors. The Wii had Mad World, but after it failed they touted the "TOLD YOU SO - HERE'S ANOTHER MARIO". Funny enough, I feel their home consoles are the only ones affected by this. Their portables don't have this problem, but it probably costs a lot less to make handheld games so they can experiment a bit more.
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Jun 4, 2013 20:03
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J Detan posted:Well, yeah, but I was thinking more along the lines that THQ's business ending fuckup made Nintendo's new console look like an addon (that, and CNN claiming it was an addon repeatedly). Would Nintendo also start suing all the confused people who DON'T watch CNN and are still asking about that Wii U add-on for the Wii? CNN is such a small part of the Wii U's marketing woes. The name is dumb, and NoA's marketing has been awful. If anything, I'm surprised more news outlets didn't misreport the Wii U's true nature.
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Jun 4, 2013 20:09
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Safety Scissors posted:As someone who owns a Wii U, I'd say the biggest problem is the games. I don't actually have any Wii U games for my Wii U. I've just been playing regular Wii games since I never owned a Wii. Since I know I'll be getting Bayonetta 2, the monolith game, and maybe Pikmin or Zelda, for me it will be worth it. If I had already owned a Wii, I literally wouldn't be able to play more games by buying a Wii U. And seriously, what was up with them pushing back the release of Pikmin 3 to August?
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Jun 4, 2013 20:16
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Cockmaster posted:And seriously, what was up with them pushing back the release of Pikmin 3 to August? They didn't know how long it took to make hd games. They had to pull half the Pikmin 3 team off the project just to finish Nintendo Land in time for launch.
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Jun 4, 2013 20:20
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greatn posted:They didn't know how long it took to make hd games.
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Jun 4, 2013 20:22
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The Internet is numerical friend codes. That's it. Duh.
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Jun 4, 2013 20:42
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Barudak posted:I don't think you can really use Ni No Kuni as an example of a unique anything in gaming. CapnAndy posted:Simplified to that degree, when was the last time someone made a new kind of movie? Or book? Or, gently caress it, Ecclesiastes, you wanna take this one? Well that's my point exactly, I'm not saying there should be some kind of great innovation, just less gimmicks and sequels since that approach is a kind of spastic reaction to the fact that there's only so many workable game genres you can invent. Ni No Kuni works exactly because it has fairly generic gameplay reminiscent of retro RPG's without being a tired sequel or reboot of an earlier franchise.
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Jun 4, 2013 21:05
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Shibawanko posted:Well that's my point exactly, I'm not saying there should be some kind of great innovation, just less gimmicks and sequels since that approach is a kind of spastic reaction to the fact that there's only so many workable game genres you can invent. Ni No Kuni works exactly because it has fairly generic gameplay reminiscent of retro RPG's without being a tired sequel or reboot of an earlier franchise. So why are sequels bad but generic games good? There's a serious problem with new IPs being unable to break into the market, but sequels are not inherently bad things. Many of the most amazing games of every generation have been sequels because a sequel can refine and adjust what came before. They can get excessive but you have to get into Assassin's Creed territory of yearly games with minimal changes and that would be bad even if they were putting out new IPs with similar gameplay.
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Jun 4, 2013 21:06
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ImpAtom posted:So why are sequels bad but generic games good? As an example: New Super Mario Bros heralded the Death of Mario. They were not bad games, they might even be considered pretty good games, but they simply rehashed and diluted the Mario formula since nothing truly new can really be invented for Mario that will attract people in the same way Super Mario World did (this has been said before here, but y'know). They have the musty smell of repetition which turns people off and destroys the console-selling magic of a franchise like that. Everybody knows that New Super Mario Bros U, unlike most of its predecessors up to and including Galaxy 1, is not a game really worth buying a console for. It lacks a certain subjective quality that is necessary to keep Nintendo afloat because it's what sells their consoles. These games still sell well when taken on their own, but do not sell the console. There's no enthusiasm, no kid-hypnotism, no word of mouth. And yet there is nothing inherently bad about a simple platform game, or a simple uncomplicated RPG game, or racing game. Secret of Mana or Final Fantasy VI weren't innovative games, they just took an existing formula and did it particularly well (alright FFVI is a sequel, but not in terms of story or characters) and gave it an entirely new universe and characters. Mario Kart was also not a particularly original game, but excelled in execution and some subtle twists. Ni No Kuni also does this, and I think this kind of game is what fits Nintendo best in terms of brand. Edit: well poo poo I went to google "The Death of Mario" since i was curious if anyone had used that slightly amusing term and this article http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/10143-The-Death-of-Mario says almost exactly the same thing. I find this guy annoying normally, but apparently I agree here. Shibawanko fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 21:21
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Shibawanko posted:I think a general problem is that we are simply, collectively running out of great new ideas for games. I guess it depends on your definition of new but I feel like I've played plenty of fresh experiences over the past couple years on PC thanks to the indie scene.
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Jun 4, 2013 21:24
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Shibawanko posted:As an example: New Super Mario Bros heralded the Death of Mario. They were not bad games, they might even be considered pretty good games, but they simply rehashed and diluted the Mario formula since nothing truly new can really be invented for Mario that will attract people in the same way Super Mario World did (this has been said before here, but y'know). They have the musty smell of repetition which turns people off and destroys the console-selling magic of a franchise like that. Everybody knows that New Super Mario Bros U, unlike most of its predecessors up to and including Galaxy 1, is not a game really worth buying a console for. It lacks a certain subjective quality that is necessary to keep Nintendo afloat because it's what sells their consoles. These games still sell well when taken on their own, but do not sell the console. There's no enthusiasm, no kid-hypnotism, no word of mouth. They do though. When marketed well they sell systems like nothing else. Look at Animal Crossing, which is basically the definition of minor upgrades to the same formula. It's saved two Nintendo handhelds and sold millions of copies. Super Mario Bros. U is argued to be one of the best Mario games in years and its sales are likely due more to the WiiU's lovely marketing than people not wanting to play it. The Mario franchise gets lots of takes on the subject matter. You've got Paper Mario, Mario RPG, Mario Land 3D, Mario Galaxy/64-style games, and the 2D New Super Mario games, and that's just games that have platforming. They don't completely reinvent the formula but that can also be a good thing. (Looking at you, Sonic the Hedgehog.) Shibawanko posted:And yet there is nothing inherently bad about a simple platform game, or a simple uncomplicated RPG game, or racing game. Secret of Mana or Final Fantasy VI weren't innovative games, they just took an existing formula and did it particularly well (alright FFVI is a sequel, but not in terms of story or characters) and gave it an entirely new universe and characters. Mario Kart was also not a particularly original game, but excelled in execution and some subtle twists. Ni No Kuni also does this, and I think this kind of game is what fits Nintendo best in terms of brand. Secret of Mana was a sequel too and arguably inferior both to its predecessor and its sequel. Mario Karts basically created the kart racing genre but most people will argue that at least some of the later games are superior to it in every way. In almost every example you mentioned there, the sequels are the games people remember most fondly. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 21:27
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Vrikkian posted:Nintendo still needs to invent, though. Innovate. Go outside of their comfort zone. There are still new ideas out there, even if they are new versions of existing games. I'm not asking them to create a new genre. The problem with Mad World and well any M-Rated game on the Wii is that it tried to drat hard, the focus was constantly the excessive gore and cursing with the narrative second, that might appeal to edgy 16 year olds but most people probably wanted something with a little more meat.
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Jun 4, 2013 21:30
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Alteisen posted:The problem with Mad World and well any M-Rated game on the Wii is that it tried to drat hard, the focus was constantly the excessive gore and cursing with the narrative second, that might appeal to edgy 16 year olds but most people probably wanted something with a little more meat. Mad World, in all honesty, wasn't really a good game. It was about 2 hours long and the mechanics were very simplistic and uninteresting while the plot was a somewhat-stylish knockoff of Escape From New York. People are quick to blame the Wii but Mad World isn't really the kind of game that would have been successful on any platform. It just was a flawed game which had an interesting concept it failed to live up to. I don't regret playing it but I can't imagine that a ridiculously short and ridiculous simple game would have been met any better at a $60 price point on the PS3/360. Edit: I mean people freaked the hell out over how short Metal Gear Rising was and it was basically a better, longer and more plot-heavy game in every way while also being attached to a popular existing franchise AND it was only running the timer while you were actually playing. Can you imagine what the response would have been to a game with minimal replay value and no length? ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 21:31
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fivegears4reverse posted:Would Nintendo also start suing all the confused people who DON'T watch CNN and are still asking about that Wii U add-on for the Wii? Yeah, it's a stupid idea, but I was being facetious, anyway. It would be really dumb to sue anyone for libel for something that minor, but it was a funny thing to think about. NoA really does need to advertise and clarify the device's place, though. Regardless of power, an HD console DS should be something that can sell really well, and the DS and 3DS have proven that being underpowered with a creative twist can still move units. Hell, if they went on TV and said "The WiiU is a new console that's like the DS, but on your TV, and in HD!" the general idea would get across to people, and then the minutia can be worked with later. But the 3DS also proved that you need to let the average Joe know that your new console is a new console, or else you have to play catch up and spend a lot of money to do so. drat, marketing's complicated.
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Jun 4, 2013 21:32
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Atomicated posted:I guess it depends on your definition of new but I feel like I've played plenty of fresh experiences over the past couple years on PC thanks to the indie scene. I love some indie games, but there are many, many terrible indie games. The ones that are widely considered good I think are not trying to be particularly innovative (and almost inherently, indie games don't feature sequels since the devs don't have long running franchises). They are "fresh" exactly in a conservative, well crafted kind of way
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Jun 4, 2013 21:32
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ImpAtom posted:Mad World, in all honesty, wasn't really a good game. It was about 2 hours long and the mechanics were very simplistic and uninteresting while the plot was a somewhat-stylish knockoff of Escape From New York. People are quick to blame the Wii but Mad World isn't really the kind of game that would have been successful on any platform. It just was a flawed game which had an interesting concept it failed to live up to. I don't regret playing it but I can't imagine that a ridiculously short and ridiculous simple game would have been met any better at a $60 price point on the PS3/360. That I can agree with, it was the most un-platinum game ever, wonder if it was due to the limitations of the controller.
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Jun 4, 2013 21:36
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Alteisen posted:That I can agree with, it was the most un-platinum game ever, wonder if it was due to the limitations of the controller. Even that wouldn't explain the short length or the general lack of effort put into... basically the entire thing. It felt like something they had to rush out the door. Anarchy Reigns is also fairly simple but in a much more Platinum kind of way.
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Jun 4, 2013 21:38
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ImpAtom posted:They do though. When marketed well they sell systems like nothing else. Look at Animal Crossing, which is basically the definition of minor upgrades to the same formula. It's saved two Nintendo handhelds and sold millions of copies. Super Mario Bros. U is argued to be one of the best Mario games in years and its sales are likely due more to the WiiU's lovely marketing than people not wanting to play it. I played it, it's a good game and yes it suffers from marketing choices, but I can't shake the feeling that there is something elementary lacking in that game which earlier Mario games did have and what made people crazy about Mario 20 years ago. The art style is the same as NSMB and it still relies on powerups and game mechanics from earlier games. Yes it's a technically good game, but something is just not there, a something that makes people really want it enough to make the initial investment for. quote:Secret of Mana was a sequel Yeah but not in people's general perception, which is what matters. Maybe it's not the best example, but I think one of the reasons it sold well and is still remembered is because it introduced an interesting, colorful new world with its own atmosphere to many people. Sequels are not inherently bad either, but produce too many of them and something is eventually lost. I'm not trying to say that I know exactly how this works or that it is the primary reason for Nintendo's trouble, but I think most people would agree that Nintendo has lost a certain something in people's general perception which is probably part of the reason the Wii U isn't a compelling console.
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Jun 4, 2013 21:54
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greatn posted:You're forgetting the xbone is including the Kinect 2, which is their own gamepad-level expensive boondoggle. Of course the PS4 includes the Eye but I think that's much cheaper tech. The difference is that Microsoft is perfectly capable of taking short term hits for long term games. Remember in 2005, when the 360 launched at $299.99 for the Core model and $399.99 for the Premium model (whose extra features were 20 GB hard drive, wireless instead of wired controller, a cheap headset and component AV cable)? The actual production cost in the first year of production was around $650 for the base unit and $720 for the higher end model. That's Microsoft taking on more than a $300 loss each unit at the start just so they'd be able to get it out there. And Sony wasn't far off either: that famous $599 PS3 cost over $850 to manufacture in the first year (and the slightly cheaper lower end one that was $499 still cost like $770 to build).
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Jun 4, 2013 22:24
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Install Gentoo posted:The difference is that Microsoft is perfectly capable of taking short term hits for long term games. I'm curious what the switch to what's basically PC parts does to the build cost. I'd imagine not using weird processors and GPU units should cut the cost to manufacture down considerably- maybe not enough to sell at a profit, but likely reduce the loss per unit sold considerably.
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Jun 5, 2013 04:26
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Ugly In The Morning posted:I'm curious what the switch to what's basically PC parts does to the build cost. I'd imagine not using weird processors and GPU units should cut the cost to manufacture down considerably- maybe not enough to sell at a profit, but likely reduce the loss per unit sold considerably. Well, there's the Original XBox to look at for that. That was largely off the shelf components. Are there figures on what it cost to make?
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Jun 5, 2013 04:32
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J Detan posted:Well, there's the Original XBox to look at for that. That was largely off the shelf components. Are there figures on what it cost to make? That one sold for $299 at launch, and during its first year in production it cost about $350 to $400 to manufacture, depending on who you ask.
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Jun 5, 2013 04:35
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It definitely has the same air about it as the Dreamcast. Getting the cold shoulder by third-party devs left right and centre.. it's got that 'stinky kid at the playground' type vibe about it.
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Jun 5, 2013 04:39
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