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Here's something I wondered in Empire: is there any point at all to not spreading your infantry as far as they'll go? I never had my line infantry any deeper than three lines, and usually two.
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Jun 4, 2013 22:31
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Deeper lines are better vs charges (bayonet/cav). For pure shooting wide is better, but a single charge can really ruin your day.
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Jun 4, 2013 22:33
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Tomn posted:Yeah, which is why it's a shame that most of your battles tend to be against some minor that ended up becoming one of the top power players. Maybe that'll be alleviated in Rome 2 by having speeches that account for the general culture of the bad guys, instead of just lumping all minors into one speech pool, i.e. taunts that fit against one Gallic tribe fits against all of them. Speaking of that vassal, I'm really hoping there's nothing stupid like Realm Divide in Rome 2. Yes it's a big part of why the late game is challenging (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=95227280) but you'd think the smaller pissant clans would try to line up on the winning side. Shumagorath fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Jun 7, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 23:14
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Here's something I wondered in Empire: is there any point at all to not spreading your infantry as far as they'll go? I never had my line infantry any deeper than three lines, and usually two. I heard that with a line shallower than 3 your troops will spend more time getting in position to replace casualties than actually shooting. I haven't actually played empire long enough to actually test it though.
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Jun 4, 2013 23:24
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Man Whore posted:I heard that with a line shallower than 3 your troops will spend more time getting in position to replace casualties than actually shooting. I haven't actually played empire long enough to actually test it though. Yeah, a really thin line will run into problems filling out the ranks and moving about. In Napoleon I tend to go for 2 ranks with about a 1/3 full third rank.
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Jun 4, 2013 23:45
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I remember the campaign time limit in Empire being too oppressive. Wasn't it only 100 turns?
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Jun 4, 2013 23:59
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Baron Porkface posted:I remember the campaign time limit in Empire being too oppressive. Wasn't it only 100 turns? It was 200.
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Jun 5, 2013 00:08
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I'm becoming more and more pumped for Rome 2. I really like the concept of Total War Rome, but I've only ever played Shogun 2, so I can't bring myself to go back to one of the oldest games in the franchise.
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Jun 5, 2013 02:53
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Samopsa posted:Deeper lines are better vs charges (bayonet/cav). For pure shooting wide is better, but a single charge can really ruin your day.
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Jun 5, 2013 03:01
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jivjov posted:I'm becoming more and more pumped for Rome 2. I really like the concept of Total War Rome, but I've only ever played Shogun 2, so I can't bring myself to go back to one of the oldest games in the franchise. To be honest you could probably manage it if you really like the setting. I still play it pretty frequently as its my favorite time frame by far. ITs pretty required to mod it though. Flaming pigs, Roman ninjas, and Old Empire Egyptian soldiers kinda ruin it when it is vanilla.
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Jun 5, 2013 03:13
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jivjov posted:I'm becoming more and more pumped for Rome 2. I really like the concept of Total War Rome, but I've only ever played Shogun 2, so I can't bring myself to go back to one of the oldest games in the franchise. Coming from the exact same background, I'd say Rome is probably easier to get into than Medieval 2 or Empire. It's old and a few of the Shogun 2 changes (auto unit replenishment) are sort of hard to live without, but the game is actually pretty simple as long as you turn on manage all settlements. Also has pretty neat unit variety and a lot more dialogue for stuff like General Speeches. My favorite bit about General Speeches in Rome is the terrible speeches you get from a low star general. 'Well uh, we might die, but let's try not to men! And uh, maybe things will turn out okay.'
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Jun 5, 2013 04:15
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In my current Rise campaign as Minomoto: -my best general is treacherous AS gently caress, 0 loyalty unless I keep two agents on him at the same time -I only have two stacks, eastern Japan is hard as gently caress to manage when even with post roads it takes a hell of a long time to get around -on of the Fujiwara clans was finished off by some rebels  except that means I have to take it and get the rebels out-the other Fujiwara clan is almost dead, only on the small island of Sado I believe -The problem is they just landed a 20 unit stack on one of my provinces, and neither stack is less than maybe 3 or 4 turns out as I try to muster up something to retaliate with in my heartland -I had yet another front open up two turns ago, a minor clan just declared war on me so I can't leave my last conquered province, which is literally next door -This aforementioned province is under the command of my best and trecherous general -All the while I was asked him to have commit seppekku and I refused. Any chance he can spontaneously defect with his troops? I love this goddamn game  It's also already 1189/90 spring or summer and I still only have 8 or 9 provinces out of the 25 I need for a short campaign victory.
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Jun 5, 2013 10:00
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I would have told him to commit seppuku. A 0 loyalty general is going to betray you sooner than later and he'll take the army he has with him. Send him to fight the enemy with a tiny force and get him killed. Make sure you get him to dismount his horses first so he can't get away and have a unit waiting further back in the battle so when he routs it doesn't end it and let him get away.
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Jun 5, 2013 10:12
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jivjov posted:I'm becoming more and more pumped for Rome 2. I really like the concept of Total War Rome, but I've only ever played Shogun 2, so I can't bring myself to go back to one of the oldest games in the franchise. I am too. I started a new STW2 vanilla game last night because I hadn't satisifed my TW itch in many months. Rome 2 is going to be amazing.
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Jun 5, 2013 14:21
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I just got Empire for my birthday, and having never really played any Total War games I'd be grateful for some tips, especially for the campaign side of things. I know it's not regarded as the best in the series but I really like the look of Rome II so I thought I'd try one out before it's released.
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Jun 5, 2013 16:02
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dogydemoc posted:I just got Empire for my birthday, and having never really played any Total War games I'd be grateful for some tips, especially for the campaign side of things. I know it's not regarded as the best in the series but I really like the look of Rome II so I thought I'd try one out before it's released. Rule Number 1 (that I've found, anyway) is don't get cocky and don't overextend yourself. My first few Shogun 2 campaigns were disastrous because I got overconfident and marched the entirety of my army forward to glorious battle, got my poo poo kicked in, and then didn't have anything left to defend my lands.
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Jun 5, 2013 16:05
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Shumagorath posted:Hmm, that never happened to me. My main antagonists were the Oda and Ikko early on, then Takeda, Chosokabe and Shimazu along with my former vassal clan. It might have something to do with the Hattori starting right next to Kyoto. I hate the realm divide too. You can pay someone to break their war with you and all their alliances, get their disposition up to max, and they'll still declare war on you the next turn because the game has decided that no, you're going to be at war with the world because we said so 
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Jun 5, 2013 16:19
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There are mods for it if you guys hate it so much, but diplomacy was never much of a factor in the late game anyway. I think realm divide is one of the best changes the series has had in a very long time. Just when things are starting to get stagnant a whole new challenge kicks in.
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Jun 5, 2013 16:26
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dogydemoc posted:I just got Empire for my birthday, and having never really played any Total War games I'd be grateful for some tips, especially for the campaign side of things. I know it's not regarded as the best in the series but I really like the look of Rome II so I thought I'd try one out before it's released. Definitely play the Road to Independence campaign first, and then when you move on to the actual game I recommend you pick a nation that doesn't start off with a massive colonial empire, because even for a Total War veteran the first time you load it up and see the sheer loving scale of the map it can be overwhelming. So someone like Sweden, or Prussia, or Austria.
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Jun 5, 2013 16:31
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Koramei posted:There are mods for it if you guys hate it so much, but diplomacy was never much of a factor in the late game anyway. I think realm divide is one of the best changes the series has had in a very long time. Just when things are starting to get stagnant a whole new challenge kicks in. I never found one that worked. The realm divide sucks from my perspective, I know others feel the same way too. At the very least there should be some concessions made to people who don't enjoy having all of their alliances broken for arbitrary reasons. The fact that you think diplomacy is incomplete enough in total war games that it's not even a factor is just a separate issue with diplomacy in general. There should be some kind of way to grandfather in a longstanding ally or two, as is realm leaders will repeatedly lose honor points just to declare war on you over and over even if you buy peace from them.
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Jun 5, 2013 16:35
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The Realm Divide mechanic is a perfectly valid attempt to make the late game more interesting where in previous games it was just mostly mop up operations and not very good. Unfortunately, as with several things CA has done, the implementation was poor. Having most if not all other factions (including those with which your clan has good relations or are vassals)revolt against you was just a kick to the teeth when you're that far into the game, especially if you don't expect it on your first playthrough. Ultimately it just feels like a very artificial way to increase mid-late game difficulty, which is somewhat ironic given that it makes perfect sense that certain factions would gang up in a coalition against your very own Nippoleonic faction.
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Jun 5, 2013 17:06
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SheepNameKiller posted:I hate the realm divide too. You can pay someone to break their war with you and all their alliances, get their disposition up to max, and they'll still declare war on you the next turn because the game has decided that no, you're going to be at war with the world because we said so They massively improved it in FOTS and it becomes a neat "stage 2" of the campaign. There's the pre-realm divide gameplay which is basically early stage, and then post realm divide which is you + allied clans against the rest of the map, and that's a ton of fun. Some games you have a lot of allied clans, some games you don't, but it's really well done and sensible. I agree that it was a bit jarring in Shogun 2, but the way FOTS implemented it seems the way they're going to do it in Rome 2, with each major faction having a few allied players / clans that you can ally with.
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Jun 5, 2013 17:10
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SheepNameKiller posted:I never found one that worked. The realm divide sucks from my perspective, I know others feel the same way too. At the very least there should be some concessions made to people who don't enjoy having all of their alliances broken for arbitrary reasons. The fact that you think diplomacy is incomplete enough in total war games that it's not even a factor is just a separate issue with diplomacy in general. There should be some kind of way to grandfather in a longstanding ally or two, as is realm leaders will repeatedly lose honor points just to declare war on you over and over even if you buy peace from them. Look around more, they come in all flavours. And I don't think diplomacy is incomplete. I think diplomacy is fine; it works really well in the early and mid game. It's just that the player stops caring about diplomacy in the late game. When we reach critical mass, we're unstoppable in the field, we win every battle- why care about diplomacy then? It just turns into a tool to make the game even easier. The only way to present a challenge to us is for all the AI factions to be strong and united, and them not kicking at each other's heels achieves that. Yeah, it's gamey, but it works. I basically never finished a campaign in the old TW games, they just get boring by the end. In Shogun 2 you have a challenge almost all the way through. Now of course a better solution would be to find a way of stopping the players from making the deathballs that make diplomacy pointless, but I'm not sure how that's achievable.
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Jun 5, 2013 18:55
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Koramei posted:Look around more, they come in all flavours. Of course not every player wants the game to become arbitrarily more difficult. I sure as hell don't. Especially when it also makes it tedious as gently caress. CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jun 5, 2013 |
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Jun 5, 2013 19:35
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Realm Divide (+/- 10 turns or so) is always where I quit and move on to a new game, I don't really enjoy grinding everyone down, especially when a few of them are often much larger than me and/or have even taken the capital but no-one cares because the AI can't trigger realm divide because reasons
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Jun 5, 2013 19:54
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Are there any mods that allow the AI to trigger realm divide? Seems like that'd even things up.
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Jun 5, 2013 20:01
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I can understand why you guys don't like the massive ramp up in difficulty, but how on earth is it more tedious? It's tedious when you're just marching through territories unopposed and the majority of your battles are against three unit armies; realm divide makes the game less tedious.
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Jun 5, 2013 20:53
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Koramei posted:I can understand why you guys don't like the massive ramp up in difficulty, but how on earth is it more tedious? It's tedious when you're just marching through territories unopposed and the majority of your battles are against three unit armies; realm divide makes the game less tedious. Oh man it's almost as if different human beings have different attitudes, opinions, and activities which they enjoy, and are capable of forming judgements about them independently of other human beings. e: non-condescendingly, it's fairly easy to see what it is that people like or dislike about the Realm Divide mechanic, especially when there has been a relatively short and to the point discussion about its various aspects in the last couple dozen posts. A discussion in which people repeatedly discuss the same set of aspects, putting more weight on the ones they prefer and acknowledging the others as shortcomings which are compensated for by the aspects they view most favorably. LonsomeSon fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Jun 5, 2013 |
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Jun 5, 2013 21:04
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Realm Divide would be really cool if you replace the AI with a human player.
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Jun 5, 2013 22:01
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It was a neat idea but it's execution was mediocre. Hopefully Rome will have nothing of the sort, though I hope that the AI will be competent enough to make holding onto a massive empire a genuine challenge. I also hope archers are better than they were in r:tw because Parthians for life.
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Jun 5, 2013 22:04
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Dirty_Moses posted:I also hope archers are better than they were in r:tw because Parthians for life. Archers are always overpowered in TW games, I like the mods that use a 2hp system for all units so they can absorb a whole lot more arrows.
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Jun 5, 2013 22:19
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Archers are always overpowered in TW games, I like the mods that use a 2hp system for all units so they can absorb a whole lot more arrows. I'm not sure I can think of even one Total War title in which archers were noticeably overpowered unless you mean horse archers. Not in Rome and definitely not in Shogun 2. I don't remember them being out of control in Medieval 2 either with the exception of English longbows. In short, what the hell are you talking about?
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Jun 5, 2013 22:25
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I'm looking forward to the next step in pincushioning technology, presentation wise. Volleys in S2 were so visceral.  And it didn't even have javelins! Unless you count the occasional yari charge animation.
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Jun 5, 2013 22:32
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Dirty_Moses posted:It was a neat idea but it's execution was mediocre. Hopefully Rome will have nothing of the sort, though I hope that the AI will be competent enough to make holding onto a massive empire a genuine challenge. I suppose the limited number of armies and region systems will help a lot with this as well. When you can't just fart out a new stack or two and go on an immediate conquering spree against anybody who looks at you funny then warring against several enemies at once should be a much more difficult prospect. If they manage to combine that with an AI that's willing to nip at your heels when it thinks you're otherwise preoccupied then we might get a more even challenge throughout the campaign. I'd say the most important part would be to make the AI able to have more choices between "peace" and "all-out war to the end". It'd be cool if it was able to just try and snag a juicy province or two and then sue for an advantageous peace once it's gotten what it wanted. Edit: Captain Diarrhoea posted:I'm looking forward to the next step in pincushioning technology, presentation wise. Volleys in S2 were so visceral.  Not just Yari 
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Jun 5, 2013 22:35
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Koramei posted:I can understand why you guys don't like the massive ramp up in difficulty, but how on earth is it more tedious? It's tedious when you're just marching through territories unopposed and the majority of your battles are against three unit armies; realm divide makes the game less tedious. I'm not going to tell anyone what they should find tedious or not, but I will say that I just found the execution to be lazy. I found it ridiculous that I could pay 100,000 gold (a ridiculous amount of money) to ally with a clan after the realm divide only to have them break the alliance and our peace agreement one turn later, purposefully torpedo their own honor, and people still would rather ally with this guy than me. This was especially jarring if you didn't even take Kyoto yet and only incurred the wrath of the Shogun because you had x number of territories, because there might be computer clans with more territories than you! But nooo, they're immune to all repurcussions. It was just all really, really unfairly implemented. Difficulty for difficulty's sake, like rubberbanding in racing games. I haven't bought fall of the samurai yet so thanks for the heads up Rakthar, the fact that they changed the realm divide will be incentive for me to buy that. SheepNameKiller fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jun 5, 2013 |
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Jun 5, 2013 22:38
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Chomp8645 posted:I'm not sure I can think of even one Total War title in which archers were noticeably overpowered unless you mean horse archers. Not in Rome and definitely not in Shogun 2. I don't remember them being out of control in Medieval 2 either with the exception of English longbows. It's more that up until Shogun 2 the best strategy in any Total War battle is to set yourself up on a hill with archers and siege weapons and wait for the enemy to march into your killzone. The AI is better at telling you to go gently caress yourself if you try that when it's defending now. This wouldn't be an issue except for the fact that up until Empire recovering from taking casualties was a loving tedious nightmare, which meant that adopting casualty adverse tactics (ie. abusing the hell out of archers and the AI) was just the better experience. The Total War series has historically been very bad at forcing the player to fight with anything other than overwhelming force and with optimal tactics (again, that's why Alexander and Peninsula War are my favourite campaigns - the time limit forces you to attack and keep attacking and you have to make do with what you have).
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Jun 5, 2013 22:43
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The new internal faction system will hopefully provide some hinder to unlimited advancement and the new system where you have a limited number of armies probably means that you can't send to many armies away to conquer because you probably have to use some of them to protect your borders.
Pump it up! Do it! fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Jun 5, 2013 |
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Jun 5, 2013 22:48
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Alchenar posted:It's more that up until Shogun 2 the best strategy in any Total War battle is to set yourself up on a hill with archers and siege weapons and wait for the enemy to march into your killzone. The AI is better at telling you to go gently caress yourself if you try that when it's defending now. Well in real life that's how you win: with overwhelming force and optimal tactics. It's like our dear buddy Machievelli says: never risk your whole fortune unless you have your entire strength backing you. Or whatever it was. Now of course every battle isn't risking everything, but I don't think it's wise to start a battle that you aren't certain you're going to win. That's always my mindset when I play M2TW.
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Jun 5, 2013 22:48
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Perestroika posted:
That's awesome, I've never noticed that! I don't know if that guy 'gets' these rifle thingys though.
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Jun 5, 2013 23:07
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Chomp8645 posted:I'm not sure I can think of even one Total War title in which archers were noticeably overpowered unless you mean horse archers. Not in Rome and definitely not in Shogun 2. I don't remember them being out of control in Medieval 2 either with the exception of English longbows. Standard army composition, no matter what faction, always called for at least 5-6 archers. You could annihilate entire units of shield carrying heavy infantry before they even got to you. And if you were the Romans, the pila storm then devastated the ones that made it through the arrows. After that, any kind of flanking or rear charge routs them. Archers should not be able to halve a units strength before it reaches you lines. 2hp mods solve that by having the archers soften them up, while only killing a few.
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Jun 5, 2013 23:09
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