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Chaltab posted:Gamecube experimented with face button layout and analog shoulder buttons I've had very limited exposure to the Gamecube. What did it's controller do with shoulder buttons that was new?
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Jun 6, 2013 00:40
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Rinkles posted:I've had very limited exposure to the Gamecube. What did it's controller do with shoulder buttons that was new? You depress and then click them, but it was rarely used. Like in Rogue Squadron you could accelerate by pressing R but by clicking it you trigger afterburners.
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Jun 6, 2013 00:45
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Papercut posted:I don't think it was a particularly weak argument, I think it's just that those few times where Nintendo has been on the cutting edge have proven to be major outliers. Actually Nintendo plodding a generation behind has been a fairly recent development. NES through Gamecube were pretty cutting edge in their times.
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Jun 6, 2013 00:48
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And despite analogue shoulder triggers becoming a standard protocol for modern games, Nintendo failed to include them on Wii U controllers 
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Jun 6, 2013 00:48
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AngryCaterpillar posted:And despite analogue shoulder triggers becoming a standard protocol for modern games, Nintendo failed to include them on Wii U controllers Last gen feature.
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Jun 6, 2013 00:52
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McDowell posted:You depress and then click them, but it was rarely used. Like in Rogue Squadron you could accelerate by pressing R but by clicking it you trigger afterburners.
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Jun 6, 2013 00:53
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Chaltab posted:Yeah, other than driving sims they're really not a huge deal. Spraying water a bit harder the more you depress the button is neat, but it's not quite like the first time you played Super Mario 64 as a kid and slowly build from a creeping tip-toe to a full blown sprint just by how you're holding the stick. Anybody know if the 3D Control Pad (crazy influential when you think about it) was ever used to similar ends in any Saturn games?
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Jun 6, 2013 01:01
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OatmealRaisin posted:I've always been curious about what could have been done with the Dreamcast if it had lasted long enough for devs to figure out ways around its limitations like they always do with mature consoles. Like, when the PS2 first launched I never would have guessed we'd have games that look as good as MGS3 or FFXII by the time developers were done squeezing every last drop of power from the machine. They actually were able to get Virtua Fighter 4 running on it. There was some preview/demo footage of it on the Japanese collector's edition of Sonic Adventure 2. Also of course the models look like crap by today's standards but seriously: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0WsS8R93_Y This having no loading times, even smoother than Metroid Prime was mindbending at the time with the quality textures and 60FPS and epic scope of the levels. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Jun 6, 2013 |
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Jun 6, 2013 01:13
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Chaltab posted:N64 made thumb-manipulated joysticks a standard feature on game controllers and also popularized the bottom-mounted trigger button. Bottom mounted trigger buttons were only on the N64. No other system since has used them in their default controller. Analog shoulder buttons were on the Dreamcast 3 years before the Gamecube.
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Jun 6, 2013 01:18
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Install Gentoo posted:Bottom mounted trigger buttons were only on the N64. No other system since has used them in their default controller. quote:Analog shoulder buttons were on the Dreamcast 3 years before the Gamecube
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Jun 6, 2013 01:31
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Chaltab posted:Nintendo has always made innovating hardware, specifically human-hardware interfaces, one of their top priorities. Even if some of those innovations prove less successful than others. Think about this: This is a good post. I was mostly thinking on the software side, but you're right that Nintendo has effectively used hardware to push innovation in the past. OatmealRaisin posted:Actually Nintendo plodding a generation behind has been a fairly recent development. NES through Gamecube were pretty cutting edge in their times. The N64 held onto carts a generation too long and the Gamecube stuck with the 1.4GB proprietary disc instead of going to DVDs, 2 choices that were obviously stupid even at the time.
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Jun 6, 2013 01:38
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Chaltab posted:Nintendo has always made innovating hardware, specifically human-hardware interfaces, one of their top priorities. Even if some of those innovations prove less successful than others. Think about this: The D-pad was a feature of the Game and Watch before the NES was around, and you left the G&W off your list for innovation.
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Jun 6, 2013 01:46
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Dash O Pepper posted:I can't play my copy of Grandia 2 because in the intro the jaggies and aliasing on some of the terrain 'vibrates' and hurts my eyes I'd say most people with the PS2 port of Grandia 2 can't play it because it runs at like 5fps.
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Jun 6, 2013 01:51
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Chaltab posted:Dreamcast, Xbox and Xbox S, The Wiimote, and Wii U Gamepad and Pro controllers have bottom mounted triggers. I prefer that to shoulder mounted triggers myself. That just doesn't make sense, if you consider the Dreamcast, Xbox, and Wii U Gamepad to have bottom mounted triggers, the Sega Saturn 3D Pad came out just a week and half after the N64 in Japan and a few months before the N64 in the US/Europe and had them. And the Saturn 3D Pad's trigger design is way more similar to those systems And the Wii U Pro contoller's trigger placement is about the same as the original Playstation controller's R2 and L2, except with a larger button so that doesn't even count. I'd forgotten about the Wiimote trigger so I'll give you that one, but the rest just don't add up.
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Jun 6, 2013 01:52
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Papercut posted:The N64 held onto carts a generation too long and the Gamecube stuck with the 1.4GB proprietary disc instead of going to DVDs, 2 choices that were obviously stupid even at the time. Is there any reasoning to this or is it just sticking to whatever they knew at the time?
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Jun 6, 2013 12:47
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God that GameCube controller was so lovely
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Jun 6, 2013 12:55
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Nintendo is just dead set against ever paying licensing fees for a format. The other reason on Gamecube was the smaller discs meant faster loading times.
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Jun 6, 2013 13:01
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Captain Matchbox posted:God that GameCube controller was so lovely Blasphemy. It was really comfy, and the Wavebird was the best wireless controller for a long time.
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Jun 6, 2013 13:32
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Captain Matchbox posted:God that GameCube controller was so lovely
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Jun 6, 2013 13:45
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As for the original topic, I'm not sure. If things keep going at this rate they'll break even, but not much more than that. Will this be the console that ends the line of Nintendo? I sort of hope so. I haven't cared about a proper Nintendo title since the Gamecube era and even then I wasn't that interested. Then again, I don't care much for either of the main sets of competitors either and I barely owned more than a handful of games from the last gen. PC has just been more than good enough, especially with the overwhelming amount of sales. If Nintendo is going to grab people's attention again, they'll need to do something the other consoles can't, and besides offer an online service that isn't largely stocked with shouting in microphones (and, in fairness, a good UI and a plethora of downloadable titles), I'm not sure what that can be.
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Jun 6, 2013 13:54
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evilmiera posted:Will this be the console that ends the line of Nintendo? Regardless of Wii U speculation, they still have their portable division... 
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Jun 6, 2013 13:56
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I wouldn't mind if Nintendo stuck around this level of technology for years, past the point where it is very cheap, and just completely mastered it, while continuing ui and other online improvements. Because m modern game design and hardware has really outgrown them it seems, and they need time to catch up.
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Jun 6, 2013 14:00
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zenintrude posted:Regardless of Wii U speculation, they still have their portable division... I'm not worried about Nintendo's future - worst come to worst they could still be enormously successful as a third party - but I don't think the outlook for dedicated portable gaming hardware is that rosy. As the plight of the Vita (to greatly simplify things) and 3rd party 3DS software sales in the US show, the ubiquity of smartphones is swallowing up that market. I wouldn't be surprised if the 3DS' successor became a Gamecube level disappointment. Neither do I think they have anywhere near the engineering acumen needed to build a competing Nintendo smartphone device.
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Jun 6, 2013 14:13
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Some thoughts from a 30+ year old long-time gamer who has purchase every Nintendo console until now: I was a reliable Nintendo customer in my youth/teens and into my 20s. The NES, the Super NES, the Nintendo 64, the GameCube, the Wii. We couldn't afford Atari in its day, so NES was my first console. I always bought ALL the major systems each generation as well (Sega Genesis through Dreamcast, Playstation 1 and 2, Turbo Grafx 16, XBOX and 360, etc.,) but up until XBOX I was a Nintendo-first guy. Most of my favorite all-time console games are still Nintendo titles. The reasons I have not and probably will not purchase a Wii U: 1. Economy. It ain't the 1990s or the 2000s anymore. I simply cannot afford to buy a Wii U AND an XBOX 720 AND a Playstation 4. I will only purchase ONE. The Wii U is the most likely to be skipped by major multi-console games, as has already happened with Madden. EA NCAA Football is one of my must-have games, and one of the reasons I am clinging to console gaming and not just completely abandoning them and sticking to PC. XBOX and XBOX 360 proved to be the best experiences for me in their generations, so based on that plus better 3rd party support plus #2 below, I'll probably go with the XBOX 720 alone. Once upon a time (SNES vs. Genesis) Nintendo was the best for multi-console releases like Madden. That has undergone a continual decline with each new console to where they are now probably the worst choice. 2. Exclusive Titles. Nintendo used to be king for me. Mario? Zelda? Metroid? Punchout? They were huge, and they got EVEN BETTER on SNES. And they introduced some new ones like StarFox that were incredible. While the N64 (for me) was nowhere near as good overall as the SNES and had fewer games, things got even better again for some of the staple franchises that were re-introduced. StarFox 64, Mario 64, etc. I personally found Mario Kart and Donkey Kong to be let downs compared to the SNES games, but at least SOME of the key exclusives were upgrades. But the N64 trend would unfortunately continue, and even fewer of the key franchises were great on GameCube. Star Fox, Mario, Zelda were all let-downs for me. The first Metroid Prime was great, but I still prefer Super Metroid. Wii was a disaster for me. I loved it primarily for the classic titles I could download, but I was clueless about emulation, which I now understand and take advantage of, so I have no more need of Wii for classic games. The new games were all let-downs. NSMB was OK, but not as fun for me as Super Mario World. The new punchout bored me quickly. Zelda Twilight Princess was awful for me. Donkey Kong looks great but just isn't as enjoyable as the SNES games. The new Metroid on Wii infuriated me. Meanwhile, XBOX started giving me new exclusive franchises I loved. Halo, Forza. They got better on 360 and for the first time I skipped one of the major consoles of a generation and did not buy the PS3. For this new generation I will be down to one, and the new XBOX is likely to give me MORE exclusive title enjoyment than Nintendo now based on the trend from N64 through Wii. It's sad really. I'd love for the bar to be raised again. I'd love a Zelda more enjoyable than LTTP or Ocarina of Time. I'd love a Mario MORE enjoyable than 64 or Super Mario World. I'd love a Punchout MORE enjoyable than Mike Tyson's or Super Punchout. A Metroid better than Super Metroid or at least better than Prime. Star Fox, Donkey Kong, etc., etc. If it looked like Wii U was going to offer me Mario, Metroid, Kart, Zelda, PunchOut, Donkey Kong, Star Fox, etc. that were all going to be 4-5 star quality games, they'd probably weasel my cash out of me. But I don't think it is going to happen. For me at least, the magic is gone. I have new loves on PC. Fallout, Elder Scrolls, etc. I like major sports titles. There are new console exclusive franchises like Halo and Forza that keep trending up instead of down like Nintendo's franchises. The magic is just gone for me. SNES will always be my favorite console, but this isn't the Nintendo of my youth. .02
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Jun 6, 2013 15:09
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Chris Christie posted:It's sad really. I'd love for the bar to be raised again. I'd love a Zelda more enjoyable than LTTP or Ocarina of Time. I'd love a Mario MORE enjoyable than 64 or Super Mario World. I'd love a Punchout MORE enjoyable than Mike Tyson's or Super Punchout. A Metroid better than Super Metroid or at least better than Prime. Star Fox, Donkey Kong, etc., etc. To be honest though, this isn't possible. Not that they can't make great games but it's really tough for any game to be as good as the game you played when you were younger. This, again, isn't really a Nintendo-exclusive thing. For a lot of people the best game in a franchise tends to be one that someone played as a kid or the one they could dedicate the most time to. I'm not really immune to this myself. Super Metroid and Link to the Past are my favorite of their respective franchises but I know at least some of that is powerful nostalgia. (Although I'd argue both are still fantastic games.) Yet people on these forums have made pretty legitimate arguments towards Zero Mission/Metroid Prime and Zelda 64/Majora's Mask/Wind Waker/whatever as being just as good/better in some ways. I'd still argue for those particular games being the best but I think a lot of that boils down to the game philosophy I like. It's hard for a newer game that is improving or repeating old successes to really hold the same magic. I think, to a certain degree, Donkey Kong Country Returns is the best drat game the franchise has ever had, but it's hard for it to hold the same place in mind mind as Donkey Kong Country despite that objectively being a much more poorly designed game than even it's successors. Nostalgia and surprises can do a lot. I think this is also why there is a lot of "Nintendo, make new IPs" going on. If there's a new game, it may not sell, but it at least has a chance of capturing unexpected magic. Ain't nobody who is buying Halo 4 gonna be surprised by what they get, but they might be by Dark Souls. The "recommend Dark Souls for everything" shine will probably wear off once we're onto DS2 or DS3 regardless of how good those games are. Nintendo holds on as long as they do through the power of nostalgia combined with providing consistently good products, even if they're not consistently great products. They're sort of like Disney that way. Mario is functionally Mickey Mouse. Unlike Disney however, they're not a big enough media enterprise to diversify. That does leave them with increasingly fewer options. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Jun 6, 2013 |
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Jun 6, 2013 15:28
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ImpAtom posted:The "recommend Dark Souls for everything" shine will probably wear off once we're onto DS2 or DS3 regardless of how good those games are. I can't wait. I mean, I like Dark Souls, but it's getting a little ridiculous.
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Jun 6, 2013 15:31
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I'm trying really hard not to come across as a console warrior, but I'm trying and failing to name any XBox-exclusive franchises besides Halo, Gears of War, and Forza (and I didn't even realize Forza was an XBox-exclusive until the XBone reveal). My impression from the 360 this past generation is that, like the SNES of your youth, it was the best platform for multiplatform games (for example, Todd Howard came out and said that they designed Skyrim with the 360 in mind first). I know that the XBone is making a big early push to have lots of exclusives but who knows how well that will pan out. The 360 had XBLA too but more often than not those games made it to PC as well, and that's only going to happen more often as console hardware and PC hardware dovetail into the same thing. Sports games will always be better on consoles, and probably are best on the 360, but I couldn't care less about sports titles so that argument doesn't do anything for me. In my mind, if you want console exclusives you buy a Nintendo or Sony system. Hell, I would go so far as to say that, as far as exclusives go, you hosed up by not getting a PS3 last generation and missing out on Uncharted, inFamous, God of War etc. or even less mainstream things like Journey or Tokyo Jungle. If it's software you care about the best bang for your buck next generation looks like a gaming PC + WiiU/PS4, but Microsoft still has time to prove me wrong! C-Euro fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Jun 6, 2013 |
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Jun 6, 2013 15:50
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It's not console warrior-like at all. Microsoft was never interested in having a game in and of itself be exclusive to the XBox because it's not really their model. What they do instead is pay out the $$$ for marketing exclusivity and to get things like map packs for Call of Duty games a month before they come out on PS3. They're built around subscriptions and selling information and advertising deals, which is why the upcoming new Xbox is the way it is. So you get a lot of short term exclusives because the idea isn't to get people to keep buying THAT GAME, it's to get people to consistently become members of all the services Microsoft offers. They don't make money off the game sales themselves. The original XBox probably has more retail exclusives than the 360. Even in the dark awful days of the PS3 launch Sony was more interested in getting stuff truly exclusive to the PS3 itself. Which they've capitalized on in a big way now the same way Microsoft did a great job of ingraining "subscribing to XBox Live" into their own audience. Nintendo's thing, and the reason I understand Chris Christie's lack of interest in the Wii U, was that Nintendo's "thing" was always the games themselves. On the SNES especially they were dropping stuff left and right that simply wasn't physically possible on any other platform at the time, besides having a lot of genuinely original stuff. Gaming is literally their business and they make money off the games. They wisely predicted the increasing budgets of the AAA game model and took things in a different direction with the Wii (same as they did with the DS) and reaped the benefits. With the Wii U, the hardware itself is pretty cool in concept and I use it a lot for streaming purposes, but game-wise? You can tell the system was rushed out and that Nintendo is having some trouble finding its niche. I'm excited to see what they have planned for this year and, even if they completely drop the ball in the ways I and others keep pointing out it's not going to be enough to doom them or anything like that. The thing is though, right now we don't have that batch of must have exclusives, I know it can take some time. Remember at one point the DS was the death of Nintendo, then six months later WarioWare Touched/Kirby Canvas Curse/Mario Kart/Nintendogs all came out at once and it was over. Wii U sales died because they weren't able to deliver Pikmin III and maybe one other awesome game this summer, so we'll see what happens come Christmas. I'm also really interested in seeing what Retro is working on. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Jun 6, 2013 |
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Jun 6, 2013 16:12
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Myrddin Emrys posted:I considered a Wii U today, actually - thought about getting one. New Mario Bros U looks fun, NintendoLand seems like it could be neat, the New Luigi U DLC seems fun, and there's a handful of other games I might be interested in. The upcoming first party games seems like I would enjoy them too (big Mario Kart fan, huge Smash Bros fan, and I like some of the newer Zeldas, specifically Wind Waker). As someone who also doesn't trust Craigslist, I just picked up a lightly used Wii U in box with NSMBU for $225 today and I'm enjoying it quite a bit. I wasn't willing to go above $250 either, but for the price I paid it's a ton of fun so far.
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Jun 7, 2013 07:52
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After this week, the WiiU jumped up to number 2 on the list of "next-gen consoles I'd consider buying." Maybe Nintendo's plan was the rope-a-dope from the start - be there and wait for your competition to knock itself out. Microsoft's already done it, and the PS4 could be one "599 US dollars!" away.
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Jun 7, 2013 18:14
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midwat posted:After this week, the WiiU jumped up to number 2 on the list of "next-gen consoles I'd consider buying." Sony isn't stupid enough to do that twice.
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Jun 7, 2013 18:17
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midwat posted:After this week, the WiiU jumped up to number 2 on the list of "next-gen consoles I'd consider buying." Positioning the Wii U not as a good system but the least awful system is kind of depressing for the industry.
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Jun 7, 2013 19:03
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TaurusOxford posted:Sony isn't stupid enough to do that twice. Hey now. Never underestimate what a company can do wrong. Nintendo managed to do the naming fuckup twice.
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Jun 7, 2013 19:06
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midwat posted:After this week, the WiiU jumped up to number 2 on the list of "next-gen consoles I'd consider buying." My feelings went this way from the initial announcement of the Xbone DRM, although in order of preference it's still something like: Keep playing games on my PC >>> Buy a PS4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buy a WiiU
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Jun 7, 2013 19:10
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Atomicated posted:Positioning the Wii U not as a good system but the least awful system is kind of depressing for the industry. Welcome to the worst generation.
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Jun 7, 2013 19:42
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midwat posted:Welcome to the worst generation. Baby boomers? Well, I guess boomers designed the Xbone too, come to think of it.
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Jun 7, 2013 19:44
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ImpAtom posted:Hey now. Never underestimate what a company can do wrong. Nintendo managed to do the naming fuckup twice. Sony can't afford another "599 US Dollar" fiasco. Between statements that they are targeting the core gamers first, not using hard to develop for hardware, and actually know how to name a new console properly unlike Nintendo, the ball is in Sony's court. If they can get the price around 450 dollars and launch with some good games, it's a steal for Playstation.
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Jun 7, 2013 19:56
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Chaltab posted:Nintendo has always made innovating hardware, specifically human-hardware interfaces, one of their top priorities. Even if some of those innovations prove less successful than others. Think about this: This is what I care about most nowadays, Nintendo is the only one to break the mould when it comes to actually playing video games. I may be a bit odd but I don't care about improving graphics so much anymore, I just don't want realism since I play games to escape real life and have fun. Currently I don't give a poo poo about the new generation; The XBONE has ridiculous online control over the console itself and the PS4 has... things. Last generation the 360 and PS3 were identical even though the PS3 had the supposed "Revolutionary" processor, but both boiled down to having the exact same games with the same graphics with the odd exclusive thrown in.
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Jun 7, 2013 20:50
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There are other uses for better hardware than making graphics more realistic. Something like Assassins Creed couldn't be done effectively on 88MB of RAM, and there will undoubtedly be new gameplay-relevant uses for PS4 and Xbone's 8 gigs that the Wii U can't replicate with just 2, or AI routines that an 8-core processor handles with ease but not the Wii U's 3-core. Technology is not the problem, it's the market forces and corporate strategies that reduce the number of viable business models industry.
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Jun 7, 2013 22:39
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I think the problem with the Wii U is that it doesn't appeal to anyone. That and it doesn't have any games.. Nintendo should keep supporting the Wii product line for the wide appeal to non-gamers. The stripped down cheap red Wii they released relatively recently would have been good for this strategy. I think they should have built a separate line of serious gaming console, gimmick free. I imagine it looking like the Xbone somewhat. Here's my wish list, for this Nintendo gaming system that would never happen: Call it the Nintendo Prime, ship it with an updated pro controller, no gimmick controller support - but maybe some 3ds integration, since it's such a popular handheld. Give it a 6 core processor, 4 gigs of ram, and get it from AMD like the others are. Use x86 for ease of development. Hell maybe get the chips that got binned for having defects. Sell the system for as cheap as possible, 250-300 dollars. Advertise it as a serious gaming machine, show off graphics that are worthy of being from a next generation console. Hold back the launch until you've got games. A new Mario, Zelda, Metroid, and Smash Bros should be ready at launch. Sell old games on the e-store, no more than 5 dollars each. Strong online support without a subscription. Internal hard drive slot, user accessible like the ps3. No different normal/deluxe version differences, just one version. And finally, no region locking.
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