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Calde posted:No, Solars walking around being the only solution to every problem is an awful trait of 2nd Edition. Poor Alchemicals, not allowed to ever tell stories about curing the Machine God; you need a Solar Exalt for that! If you'll note I said Solar or Infernal or DB, but really any PC group could have an adventure around it, either searching for an artifact, or doing some hard core research and development with lots of experiments, or maybe finding a way to talk to Gaea. My point was less big problems for Solars to solve, and more big problems for PCs to solve.
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Jun 6, 2013 01:59
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Talkie Toaster posted:Yeah, the 'We have millions of charms! Charms for everything and everyone!' bit came up with the Abyssals faff. I appreciate that they've got a lot of experience fixing the old system by writing tons of charms and stick with what you know and all that, but it seems like there's got to be better ways of solving these problems, that won't involve adding a completely unplaytestable quantity of stuff. Funny thing about Dragon-Blooded in particular, imo the best way to handle the Avatar-style element bending they want them to have is to have LESS charms and LESS specifics of how you use those elemental powers. If anything it should be a very small handful of General charms or even an innate power, keyed off of their Aspect, that is very broad in use and leaning toward narrative and can be mixed and matched with a variety of Abilities. Capfalcon posted:To my (admittedly lacking) understanding, Essence was the closest thing that Exalted had to levels (i.e. At Essence 3, you get access to these charms and you get so many motes a round, at Essence 4 you get access to these charms, etc). No. The only thing Breeding did was give you more motes in your Personal and Peripheral mote pools. Some Dragon-Blooded charms also had Breeding as a prerequisite. Strength of Many fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Jun 6, 2013 |
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Jun 6, 2013 01:59
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Capfalcon posted:So, was Breeding a merit that gave you access to higher essences? Like you had to have breeding 3 to be able to get essence 3 or whatever? If so, I know RPGs are kind of rife with the awesome now/suck later and suck now/awesome later character growth plans, but that's... a really impressively bad design decision. It gave you bigger essence pools. If you don't know Exalted very well, think of it as having more MP in a JRPG - only MP is also your health bar. It also allowed you access to certain powers with the Purity Keyword.
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Jun 6, 2013 01:59
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I'm bored and rule discussions about 3e keep coming up, especially with how they've basically been implenenting other people's rulsets or house rules as core mechanics, so I feel like posting some of my own that I'm using in 2e currently and in the past.quote:Attributes We also use a reworked form of chargen that's entirely XP based instead of the weird and poorly balanced bullshit of dot and bonus point chargen. Its based off of Solar XP tables, which I have everyone use regardless of what splat they're playing because gently caress not having a centralized XP table for the entire game. I'm currently sifting through weapon and armor revisions that I might want to steal ideas from, as well as kicking mass combat out of the game and instead using something closer to Swarms in nwod or Hordes in Deathwatch/Dark Heresy , as well as Squad rules from said game for anyone using War. As a final disclaimer; I don't use PC chargen or stats for my antagonists. I'd have to say I run them more like an encounter from something like Fourth Edition Dungeons and Dragons, complete with multi-phase boss fights and once-per-encounter powers. And of course a fine balance of (loving huge amounts of) Health levels and defensive traits, tailored so my group can actually be effective. Finally, the gentleman's agreement; I almost never use Perfect defenses or effects. It makes sense for PLAYERS to posses those kind of things in the hyper lethality of the game, but NPCs? gently caress that noise.
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Jun 6, 2013 02:08
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Your combo houserule is actually less charitable than the current Ex 2.5 errata, which I heavily recommend using if you're gaming-- that just made everyone's charms innately able to be combo'd if they were combo-ok.
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Jun 6, 2013 02:43
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I seem to remember one of the devs posting that they won't be charging people a willpower point to use multiple charms together, which isn't the same thing as them not charging people experience points to buy combos in the first place... Then again, combos as specific XP-costing elements that differentiate one character from another could be cool in a system that allows you to freely retrain combos you're getting tired of and that isn't trivially solvable such that there's one megacombo that every single character wants to be running at all times.
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Jun 6, 2013 02:45
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Strength of Many posted:I'm bored and rule discussions about 3e keep coming up, especially with how they've basically been implenenting other people's rulsets or house rules as core mechanics, so I feel like posting some of my own that I'm using in 2e currently and in the past. Wait, they're just copying peoples house rules as core mechanics? How do you know this given that they haven't even really said anything about the core mechanics
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Jun 6, 2013 03:49
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Nightskye posted:Your combo houserule is actually less charitable than the current Ex 2.5 errata, which I heavily recommend using if you're gaming-- that just made everyone's charms innately able to be combo'd if they were combo-ok. Removes the purpose of Willpower management as a resource. I also don't care about their PD or ping changes so that's another factor behind it. QuintessenceX posted:Wait, they're just copying peoples house rules as core mechanics? How do you know this given that they haven't even really said anything about the core mechanics The 2.5 errata was more or less other people's house rules that have been floating around for years, tweaked and rewritten to fit their (and the fandom's) inane biases. Their track record across previous books (Alchemicals especially) and Ink Monkeys articles of writing really either really bland garbage, really bland broken garbage, or hyper specific garbage was mostly Holden and Hatewheel's work. Again, all of it catering to the paradoxical fixations of their fandom, and most of it incredibly uninspired mechanically speaking. Anything noteworthy was the last vestiges of Neph's work, such as Thousand Correct Actions and Broken Winged Crane. This does not set a good precedent for their lead writers assigned to mechanics. Momentum is, thus far, looking like a gimmicky system for recharging what are the equivalent of Encounter/Daily powers from 4e (see: Tyrant Lizard stat block.) The social system sounds very strongly like its going to be the Doors one from nwod. Chances are their mass combat fixes will be Swarms from nwod, if not an 'adaptation' of Hordes and Squad rules from Dark Heresy and Deathwatch. Strength of Many fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Jun 6, 2013 |
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Jun 6, 2013 04:03
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QuintessenceX posted:Wait, they're just copying peoples house rules as core mechanics? How do you know this given that they haven't even really said anything about the core mechanics Yes this is the first I am hearing about it. I mean, if the rules work great but that is quite the statement.
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Jun 6, 2013 04:08
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QuintessenceX posted:Wait, they're just copying peoples house rules as core mechanics? How do you know this given that they haven't even really said anything about the core mechanics
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Jun 6, 2013 04:30
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Strength of Many posted:Removes the purpose of Willpower management as a resource. I also don't care about their PD or ping changes so that's another factor behind it. Man, you and I don't have the same tastes at all. I dug alot of the Ink Monkeys poo poo and so far I've really enjoyed most of the books put out by the new group. Who is Neph, just out of curiosity?
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Jun 6, 2013 05:20
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QuintessenceX posted:Man, you and I don't have the same tastes at all. I dug alot of the Ink Monkeys poo poo and so far I've really enjoyed most of the books put out by the new group. Who is Neph, just out of curiosity? Same here, the ink monkeys stuff did what it could with the pile of poo poo that was the 2e rule-set. Dawns needed help (better option would be not to dump all combat abilities into one caste but I am not holding my loving breath that they will fix this in 3e) perfects were too cheap (they should just go period but hey, TRADITION) and free to combo charms were rad as hell. Willpower was already a resource for like 20 other things, it was still super important regardless. Plague of Hats posted:I am not certain, but I think there will be some sort of Breeding Merit. It's not going to be a barrier to Charms or affect mote pools, though. We are being very careful with motes. Ash Rose fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Jun 6, 2013 |
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Jun 6, 2013 05:27
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QuintessenceX posted:Man, you and I don't have the same tastes at all. I dug alot of the Ink Monkeys poo poo and so far I've really enjoyed most of the books put out by the new group. Who is Neph, just out of curiosity? Neph is Nephilpal, aka Michael Goodwin, who wrote, among other things, the Charms for 1e Alchemicals, 2e Infernals, and Abyssals of all editions so far.
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Jun 6, 2013 05:32
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QuintessenceX posted:Man, you and I don't have the same tastes at all. I dug alot of the Ink Monkeys poo poo and so far I've really enjoyed most of the books put out by the new group. Who is Neph, just out of curiosity? Michael Goodwin. He worked on the Alchemicals (1e), Abyssals (Both), and Infernals (2e), I believe. Other things too, I'm sure, but that's what I recall most distinctly. As far as I know, he's a very controversial author, with a lot of people having strong feelings one way or the other about his work. Or at least a few very loud people. Since I don't really have a dog in the race of any of the Exalts he wrote for, I don't have much of an opinion on him myself. I do very much like the work the Ink Monkeys have done so far, though. With one glaring exception, obviously.
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Jun 6, 2013 05:33
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If you ask me, the black mark in Nephilpal's record is his attempt to introduce target number manipulation to the World of Darkness for no loving reason whatever. I've always liked his Abyssals and Alchemicals stuff, though I've never read Infernals. Didn't he also do the Mountain Folk?
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Jun 6, 2013 05:44
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Neph brought me into the industry, taught me a lot about design and got me hooked on writing RPGs so I both love and hate him.Ferrinus posted:Didn't he also do the Mountain Folk? Yes.
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Jun 6, 2013 05:45
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Ferrinus posted:If you ask me, the black mark in Nephilpal's record is his attempt to introduce target number manipulation to the World of Darkness for no loving reason whatever. I've always liked his Abyssals and Alchemicals stuff, though I've never read Infernals. Didn't he also do the Mountain Folk? Neph's Infernals Charms I think are pretty widely regarded as being among the best (or possibly the best) Charmset in 2e, as far as being both evocative, engaging, and mechanically sound. Which is not to say there weren't problems with it, but at least those problems weren't rape ghosts.
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Jun 6, 2013 05:46
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As for theories on the reason of decline, perhaps it might be in part due to the Law of Diminishment.
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Jun 6, 2013 05:46
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Mikan posted:Neph brought me into the industry, taught me a lot about design and got me hooked on writing RPGs so I both love and hate him. Ah, so here we have the actual black mark on his record.
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Jun 6, 2013 05:51
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Attorney at Funk posted:Ah, so here we have the actual black mark on his record.  QuintessenceX posted:Wait, they're just copying peoples house rules as core mechanics? How do you know this given that they haven't even really said anything about the core mechanics We can't know anything because they still refuse to release actual mechanics, all we have to go on are vague promises and out of context previews. I'm still surprised so many people are willing to take a chance on this.
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Jun 6, 2013 05:55
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Mikan posted:
I completely agree. I cannot tell you how frustrating it was when I realized that combat was pretty much over before it started in 2E. I'm waiting on some replies from Holden, but if I don't hear from them I'm going to go from 500 dollars pledged to 35 in a second specifically because of the lack of a mechanics preview. BryanChavez posted:Michael Goodwin. He worked on the Alchemicals (1e), Abyssals (Both), and Infernals (2e), I believe. Other things too, I'm sure, but that's what I recall most distinctly. As far as I know, he's a very controversial author, with a lot of people having strong feelings one way or the other about his work. Or at least a few very loud people. Since I don't really have a dog in the race of any of the Exalts he wrote for, I don't have much of an opinion on him myself. I do very much like the work the Ink Monkeys have done so far, though. With one glaring exception, obviously. Why isn't he around anymore? He seems like he had a good run then. Admittedly 2E Abyssals were boring as poo poo, but Infernals had some excellent charm/crunch.
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Jun 6, 2013 06:10
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Perhaps it'll just be D20 rules with a note of 'oh just do it in Fate or *World anyway we give up'. For myself I admit happily I am supporting (if with... reservations, amply discussed in the past thread) 'Exalted: the setting and property' rather than 'ExaltedEngine: the last word in elfgaming" and I expect something better than 2E for a system. I don't expect it'll be super drastically different but I'm OK with that; my main hope is for it to be somewhat simpler, but not 'so simple you can write your character sheet in your hand' simple. Nessus fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Jun 6, 2013 |
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Jun 6, 2013 06:13
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QuintessenceX posted:Why isn't he around anymore? He seems like he had a good run then. Admittedly 2E Abyssals were boring as poo poo, but Infernals had some excellent charm/crunch. No idea. I mean, if my mechanics turned up in the same book as the Lillun comic (and concept), I'd sure as poo poo bail out of the entire thing immediately, but I don't have an official story beyond the fact that he bowed out sometime last year, I think.
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Jun 6, 2013 06:15
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Strength of Many posted:Removes the purpose of Willpower management as a resource. I also don't care about their PD or ping changes so that's another factor behind it. Ehhhhhhhhhh. I think it gets plenty enough use as the fuel for Virtue channels and the various mandatory crap that is resisting UMI charms. That kinda additional tracking is really unappealing to me. Tastes vary, of course, but I think you're probably the first person I've ever seen who prefers base 2E rules to the 2.5 errata (or, I suppose much more likely, you simply prefer your own mish-mash of house rules to theirs, in which case fair enough).
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Jun 6, 2013 06:19
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AFAIK, Neph got hit by the White Wolf mass layoff and elected to work on grad school instead of continuing to develop RPGs from hereon out, minus a guest appearance in Mummy for NWoD to stink up the joint with TN adjustment magic.
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Jun 6, 2013 06:30
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So in the last thread I stated that I was always interested in Exalted but had never bought or played it because it was the game with animal loving, The Rape CHild, and really - like, even in this industry, significantly - poor mechanics. Here is what I know of Exalted 3e: * Rape ghosts * So how are the mechanics looking, or is this going to be another case of "Man there sure could be a good game in there somewhere, too bad it is covered in excrement"
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Jun 6, 2013 08:34
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ProfessorCirno posted:So how are the mechanics looking, or is this going to be another case of "Man there sure could be a good game in there somewhere, too bad it is covered in excrement"
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Jun 6, 2013 08:38
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* Books will have several hundred charms * There is literally a mechanic called Solar XP * Backgrounds and merits are turning into D&D Feats * Solars get free Excellencies because * NPCs are still made using PC rules There's more, some of it not terrible - like cracking down on multiattacks - but all in all I'm not sure what people are expecting. E: Like, it's still vague, but it peels back the veil just enough to see old things that were huge problems coming back in some form and bringing some new friends. Chaotic Neutral fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Jun 6, 2013 |
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Jun 6, 2013 09:39
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Chaotic Neutral posted:* Books will have several hundred charms The hundreds of charms looks to be true (E: But then again the 2e core had about 300 charms and I didn't think that was unwieldy, soooo), but as for the rest...
2) D&D Feats have nothing to do with it. Where on earth did you get that impression?  Instead Backgrounds and Merits are being put in the NWoD Merit framework, which allows for more versatile costing and easier balancing.3) The speedbump of Excellencies have been removed, with you automatically getting the ability Excellency (which adds dice on standard rolls and successes on static values) in every caste and favoured ability and getting other ability's excellencies as soon as you buy a charm for them. 4) There will be a system for generating quick, simple NPCs, although you'll probably want to stat up big bads using the PC rules. Seriously, there's justifiable pessimism and then there's just making things up. Flavivirus fucked around with this message at 10:01 on Jun 6, 2013 |
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Jun 6, 2013 09:54
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Look it's just called Solar XP, but everybody gets it even if they're not solars! Also, Martial Arts is the term for several different interlocking but distinct things.
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Jun 6, 2013 09:58
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Flavivirus posted:1) There is a system like Arcane XP or Practical XP in NWoD for giving people a secondary source of XP that can't be spent on charms or essence, ensuring that there's less opportunity cost in picking up skills, merits and attributes. quote:2) D&D Feats have nothing to do with it. Where on earth did you get that impression? quote:3) The speedbump of Excellencies have been removed, with you automatically getting the ability Excellency (which adds dice on standard rolls and successes on static values) in every caste and favoured ability and getting other ability's excellencies as soon as you buy a charm for them. quote:4) There will be a system for generating quick, simple NPCs, although you'll probably want to stat up big bads using the PC rules.
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Jun 6, 2013 10:03
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Chaotic Neutral posted:It's the name that makes me laugh. I mean, seriously? Solar XP. That's the temporary working name.
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Jun 6, 2013 10:24
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Chaotic Neutral posted:It's the name that makes me laugh. I mean, seriously? Solar XP. If I was being charitable I'd say it's called Solar XP because it focuses on mortal excellence and arete by being spendable only on skills, attributes, and merits, and thus is in-theme for solars. It's still a bit janky, but coming from NWoD's Arcane XP, Practical XP, Vitriol, and Sebayt XP I guess I'm used to it. quote:Assuming you're a Solar, anyway. Has that actually been confirmed as a thing for everyone? The entire rest of the document doesn't refer exclusively to one type when it's talking about things for characters. (Unless it's Solar XP, I guess?) It's at least been confirmed that the other splats won't have excellency speedbumps, but I think nothing more than that has been discussed. quote:Which has, traditionally, worked poorly. Like in 2e. Pretty sure 2e didn't have any kind of quick NPC system that wasn't fanmade, and the ones that were (e.g. Epsilon's or Voidstate's) worked pretty well when I was running the game. What system are you referring to?
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Jun 6, 2013 10:27
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It's entirely possible that I'm just really oversensitive to the history of 'everything is about the Solars, even things that aren't about Solars' and stupid forced poo poo like the different XP tables, but I can't help being suspicious of it all.Flavivirus posted:Pretty sure 2e didn't have any kind of quick NPC system that wasn't fanmade, and the ones that were (e.g. Epsilon's or Voidstate's) worked pretty well when I was running the game. What system are you referring to?
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Jun 6, 2013 10:32
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Chaotic Neutral posted:Assuming you're a Solar, anyway. Has that actually been confirmed as a thing for everyone? The entire rest of the document doesn't refer exclusively to one type when it's talking about things for characters. (Unless it's Solar XP, I guess?) If I recall correctly, the only splat where it's still up in the air w/r/t Excellencies is the Alchemicals. I assume it's because they can hotswap their Charms and that would get weird.
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Jun 6, 2013 10:36
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Pretty sure I've also heard that different XP tables are going away, and certainly Solar XP is something all the splats can earn.
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Jun 6, 2013 10:36
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Flavivirus posted:3) The speedbump of Excellencies have been removed, with you automatically getting the ability Excellency (which adds dice on standard rolls and successes on static values) in every caste and favoured ability and getting other ability's excellencies as soon as you buy a charm for them.
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Jun 6, 2013 10:42
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The complaints about having too many Charms doesn't really make sense to me. D&D 4e had over a hundred powers per class and that works out alright, grognards aside. The better complaint is that the charms look like they're too specific, requiring all those extra Charms. Like, you need a separate Charm for an air slash and an air bolt, according to the new Dragon-Blooded preview. The few preview charms we've seen also accomplish very focused effects. It's actually a big concern to me.
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Jun 6, 2013 10:59
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pospysyl posted:The complaints about having too many Charms doesn't really make sense to me. D&D 4e had over a hundred powers per class and that works out alright, grognards aside. At least Exalted has nothing really resembling Feats, though.
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Jun 6, 2013 11:43
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Asimo posted:Well, a big thing with 4e powers is that even with the classes with sprawling lists to choose from, they were broken up into much smaller chunks by level, powers were presented in a simple block form with usually standardized effects, and you only had a finite number of powers available at a single time to a character. It was still a bit too sprawling, but it was still pretty manageable. Unfortunately Exalted's charm list (in 1e and 2e anyway) doesn't share this... there's hundreds available at any one time, many of them have unique and elaborate mechanics, and there's theoretically no limit to the amount of charms most characters could have beyond experience limits and GM patience. Way more unwieldy in practice. Charms basically are feats. Look at how many Permanent ones they started producing near the later end of 2e's cycle that existed only to add some kind of fiddly bonus or what not.
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Jun 6, 2013 12:37
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