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Have you cross shopped against a volt yet? They get a bigger government kick back and GM has been giving biggest discounts. I just got mine and I absolutely love it.
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Jun 4, 2013 22:57
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I too was eyeing the Tesla Model S, but unwilling to shell out $75k+ for one. I think the Fusion is a nice compromise, (especially if I can get the mileage that high). Got a Fusion Energi a couple weeks back and I'm happy with the decision and enjoying the drive into work. Especially this morning, when the highway was shut down due to an overturned tanker and everyone was rerouted to side streets and back roads, I was actually unperturbed with the whole situation. While I'm happy with the mileage I'm getting (closing in on 60 with 1/4 tank left, though that is with a 100 mile trip the weekend I got the car) I'm wondering if the 100 eMPG was achieved in specific scenarios. For instance, is charging up mid-day required or would the rating be based on a single full charge? I also noticed a few asterisks in Ford's material stating premium unleaded gasoline was used. The Internet has informed me that extra mileage and performance isn't to be expected from premium gas, but if there is any benefit offered I wouldn't see the problem in using it, especially if I'm only filling up every two or three weeks.
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Jun 4, 2013 23:33
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MPGe shouldn't be impacted on when you charge - the whole point of MPGe is that it's the miles the car gets out of an amount of stored electricity that is equivalent to the same amount of energy made by burning one gallon of gasoline. Are you referring to a 1/4 tank as in a quarter of the gasoline tank (in which case you'll never see 100MPG on that) or 60MPGe with 1/4 of the battery charge left? It's also a nice reminder as to why electric cars are great, and yet their biggest failing. Turning electricity into motion is far more efficient than turning gasoline into motion - almost all electrics get somewhere in the vicinity of 100 miles on the equivalent of a gallon of gas. The problem is that the battery packs in everything south of a Tesla Model S or a RAV4 EV are only about the equivalent of three quarters of a gallon (or less).
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Jun 4, 2013 23:48
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Oh interesting. I was referring to 1/4 of the gasoline tank, and using the MPG metric displayed on the dash, which is increasing while driving in EV mode and decreasing when the ICE is running. I couldn't tell you how that is calculated so I guess I have some homework to do.
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Jun 4, 2013 23:59
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Yeah in that case it's either reporting strictly your miles per gallon of gasoline consumed (so not counting any electricity consumed) or it's mixing your MPGe and your MPG together for an average number.
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Jun 5, 2013 00:30
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IOwnCalculus posted:Yeah in that case it's either reporting strictly your miles per gallon of gasoline consumed (so not counting any electricity consumed) or it's mixing your MPGe and your MPG together for an average number. It's calculating MPG only when showing MPG. There are different screens that show different values. You can have it show MPGe as well.
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Jun 5, 2013 01:58
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duz posted:So jealous. I hope this leads to more quick chargers us non-Teslas can use. Are these really Tesla-specific chargers? Is there not an industry standard electric port that everything can use, or is there a separate port on Tesla's for a proprietary Tesla quick charge? Seems like the last thing car manufacturers would want to do is make electric cars that won't play nice with whatever infrastructure gets developed for them.
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Jun 5, 2013 17:42
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davebo posted:Are these really Tesla-specific chargers? Is there not an industry standard electric port that everything can use, or is there a separate port on Tesla's for a proprietary Tesla quick charge? Seems like the last thing car manufacturers would want to do is make electric cars that won't play nice with whatever infrastructure gets developed for them. I'd think they are Tesla specific sadly, at-least the fastest charge might be. Last time I looked around at the different standards (things may have changed) since my company does a bunch with car charging now, there wasn't really anything good. Seems like most of the standards are slow charge, and nothing concerning fast charge is really getting anywhere (standards take a really loving long time to become final), so companies are taking the initiative and inventing their own. Unfortunately, that will lead to a fragmented market for a while.
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Jun 5, 2013 18:01
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Brigdh posted:I'd think they are Tesla specific sadly, at-least the fastest charge might be. Last time I looked around at the different standards (things may have changed) since my company does a bunch with car charging now, there wasn't really anything good. Seems like most of the standards are slow charge, and nothing concerning fast charge is really getting anywhere (standards take a really loving long time to become final), so companies are taking the initiative and inventing their own. Unfortunately, that will lead to a fragmented market for a while. Yeah according to this article it's proprietary. Seems like it would be smart of them to offer stepped down adapters for other cars to use so they could help grow the market though. http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/26/tesla-supercharger-incompatible-with-other-electric-cars/
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Jun 5, 2013 18:06
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The Tesla Superchargers use a proprietary connector currently limited to use with the Model S (the Tesla Roadsters are even incompatible). One reason is that Tesla is pushing beyond the limit of what the current accepted standardized connections can do (J-1772). The Model S does come with an adapter that will let you use standardized chargers with the Model S (at a slower speed). The other reason the Superchargers are proprietary is that their use is free of charge for life. Part of what you're buying along with the Model S is access to these reserved very high-speed chargers. Really it is kind of like Apple using proprietary connectors on the iPhone.
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Jun 5, 2013 18:23
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I wonder though if in the future, third parties might just make adapters either for the shape or an actual a/c adapter that could step down the voltage so if say the 2020 Nissan Leaf had its own version of quick charge that maybe was slightly slower than Tesla's, you could make an adapter to step Tesla's charger down to Nissan's. Or do these chargers actually require you to log in or use a credit card or something to verify you own a Tesla? Or possibly a data port within the charger cable?
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Jun 5, 2013 18:27
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davebo posted:I wonder though if in the future, third parties might just make adapters either for the shape or an actual a/c adapter that could step down the voltage so if say the 2020 Nissan Leaf had its own version of quick charge that maybe was slightly slower than Tesla's, you could make an adapter to step Tesla's charger down to Nissan's. Or do these chargers actually require you to log in or use a credit card or something to verify you own a Tesla? Or possibly a data port within the charger cable? Nobody will copy Tesla's interface because it is proprietary and patented. They would be sued. Most public chargers require you to set up accounts with different companies which can be a pain in the rear end. With the Tesla Superchargers you just pull up and plug in. Edit: Also the superchargers are really just a direct connection to the batteries, bypassing the on-board charger. The car really needs to be designed to support it, you wouldn't be able to throw an adapter between it.
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Jun 5, 2013 18:29
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davebo posted:I wonder though if in the future, third parties might just make adapters either for the shape or an actual a/c adapter that could step down the voltage so if say the 2020 Nissan Leaf had its own version of quick charge that maybe was slightly slower than Tesla's, you could make an adapter to step Tesla's charger down to Nissan's. Or do these chargers actually require you to log in or use a credit card or something to verify you own a Tesla? Or possibly a data port within the charger cable? Surely Tesla would sue unless it was an unofficial third party part since as noted above, these things are free as part of the money you paid to buy a Tesla car in the first place. Also, not sure how big a device/adapter would be to step down high currents/voltages like that?
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Jun 5, 2013 18:29
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Squibbles posted:Surely Tesla would sue unless it was an unofficial third party part since as noted above, these things are free as part of the money you paid to buy a Tesla car in the first place. Yeah I was sort of thinking about a black market Chinese adapter people would find on ebay and would probably destroy your car half the time, I was just curious if it was technically possible. Obviously this connector is a lot more complicated than those adapters that take any micro usb cable and change to an iphone adapter for charging. Down the line I'm just imagining a Mad Max world where people are inventing ways to siphon electricity instead of gas.
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Jun 5, 2013 18:55
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davebo posted:Down the line I'm just imagining a Mad Max world where people are inventing ways to siphon electricity instead of gas. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2011/09/110913-smart-meters-for-electricity-theft/ I'm laughing at the idea of some 5th-owner of a Leaf or something at some middle-of-nowhere electicity pylon in 20 years holding a crappy little eBay "Universal Adaptor A++ L@@K!!!" and a coil of bare copper wire.
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Jun 5, 2013 19:06
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How does the Tesla supercharger compare to CHAdeMO or J1772 Combo? I don't like the idea of yet another proprietary plug but it's not like people didn't see this coming with EV adoption. . . The good part is Tesla's network will at least ensure that there is 400V high amp power available at several sites across America, plopping in a CHAdeMO or J1772 Combo station next door shouldn't be too difficult. Yeah, it will take a lot of time and money to get alternative Lvl 3 charger in place, but I would assume the combined efforts of GM, Ford, Daimler, and every other company backing J1772 Combo might be tempted to change that.
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Jun 5, 2013 19:31
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Colonel Sanders posted:How does the Tesla supercharger compare to CHAdeMO or J1772 Combo? I don't like the idea of yet another proprietary plug but it's not like people didn't see this coming with EV adoption. . . The good part is Tesla's network will at least ensure that there is 400V high amp power available at several sites across America, plopping in a CHAdeMO or J1772 Combo station next door shouldn't be too difficult. Yeah, it will take a lot of time and money to get alternative Lvl 3 charger in place, but I would assume the combined efforts of GM, Ford, Daimler, and every other company backing J1772 Combo might be tempted to change that. Supercharger: 90kW CHAdeMO: 62.5kW J1772 Combo: "up to 90kW" That's just based on wiki numbers. I don't really know much about EV tech.
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Jun 5, 2013 19:38
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My wife and I test drove a Model S Performance this afternoon. I knew it would be fast but I didn't anticipate how instantly fast it is. The interior is a little spartan when compared to other 100k cars but the technology can't be beat. I wish the touch screen was a little more responsive too, the lag was appreciable to me but not my wife. It's probably something that one adapts to and then forgets about.
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Jun 5, 2013 20:05
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When my Leaf lease is up in 2013, I might have to sell both my kidneys to get a Tesla S. I could have afforded the monthly payments now, but it's a hard justification compared to the price I'm getting on the Leaf. Charging, though - what sort of resources and avenues are there as a Leaf driver for me to take to help build the infrastructure? I'm in Western Washington, though a ways north of Seattle, and I'm bumping into other Leafs and Plug in Priuses at a decent amount, making it hard to get access the the limited Level 2 and Level 3 chargers. Every forum I visit about EVs has huge threads devolving into entitlement battles over who deserves the chargers more. Building more chargers would help, but beyond actually using the chargers and adding myself to the use statistics, I'm just not sure how to do much. At least my boss is somewhat interested in putting in a couple of L2 chargers, though somehow I doubt it'll actually happen.
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Jun 5, 2013 20:13
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Colonel Sanders posted:How does the Tesla supercharger compare to CHAdeMO or J1772 Combo? I don't like the idea of yet another proprietary plug but it's not like people didn't see this coming with EV adoption. . . The good part is Tesla's network will at least ensure that there is 400V high amp power available at several sites across America, plopping in a CHAdeMO or J1772 Combo station next door shouldn't be too difficult. Yeah, it will take a lot of time and money to get alternative Lvl 3 charger in place, but I would assume the combined efforts of GM, Ford, Daimler, and every other company backing J1772 Combo might be tempted to change that. The thing you have to realize is that with electric cars (especially as capacity increases over time) you're charging at home (usually overnight) 95% of the time. That is why infrastructure needs are actually less needed than people think. Imagine how often you would visit a gas station if there was a gas hose in your garage that would fill up your tank every night.
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Jun 5, 2013 20:20
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Mortanis posted:Every forum I visit about EVs has huge threads devolving into entitlement battles over who deserves the chargers more. Building more chargers would help, but beyond actually using the chargers and adding myself to the use statistics, I'm just not sure how to do much. We've had the same battles here at work. A year or year and a half ago it was fine as there was basically an old Rav4 EV, a couple Leafs, and an occasional Tesla roadster for 6 LVL2 chargers and a bunch of 110V outlets. When the Volts and Prius came suddenly there were no spots, and the Leaf commuters who were driving 25 miles were pissed with the Volts being driven by people living 5 or less miles away. For the most part people deal with it and just use an e-mail list to tell others when they are done charging. I think people with Volts/Prius probably don't have access to a dedicated charger at home, and some might not have guaranteed access at all. Personally if I get an EV or EV/Hybrid I don't really anticipate needing public charging. I think infrastructure will improve as people start to use it as a means to draw business, or when it can be monetized a little better.
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Jun 5, 2013 20:52
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eeenmachine posted:The thing you have to realize is that with electric cars (especially as capacity increases over time) you're charging at home (usually overnight) 95% of the time. That is why infrastructure needs are actually less needed than people think. Imagine how often you would visit a gas station if there was a gas hose in your garage that would fill up your tank every night. Well. . . My understanding of the current home charging is that your paying the bill, your also paying for a charging station to be installed in your house, and your wiring probably does not support 400V level 3 fast charging, your probably plugging in for 8hrs. Compare that to a Tesla where you can get a full charge, for free, in 20 minutes without any extra crap at home. But most important, you can travel across the continent in the Tesla, in a few years, and with 20 min stops every 200 miles. If stopping to recharge a Tesla takes 20 minutes, on average how long does it take to pump a tank of gas? I have never timed it myself, but I would guess that it takes between 3 to 5min to pump 10 gallons into my econobox. If I am on a long trip, I usually stop and go spend money on low quality junk food in the gas station, hell I could probably easily waste 20 minutes at a charging station. Rod Munch posted:We've had the same battles here at work. A year or year and a half ago it was fine as there was basically an old Rav4 EV, a couple Leafs, and an occasional Tesla roadster for 6 LVL2 chargers and a bunch of 110V outlets. When the Volts and Prius came suddenly there were no spots, and the Leaf commuters who were driving 25 miles were pissed with the Volts being driven by people living 5 or less miles away. Personally, I think that problem could be solved by putting a quick charge station a couple blocks/miles away from work and getting rid of the at work chargers. . . Or just run 110V outlets to every parking spot at work and loose the expensive(?) lvl 2 chargers. With the e-mail list, once someone e-mails you to say they are done charging, I assume that means they have to go move their car, and you move your car, or do the charges come with a cable long enough you can park near them and just switch the plug?
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Jun 5, 2013 22:53
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From the few articles I read about the super charging stations today they seemed to indicate that using a supercharger is actually pretty hard on your battery and is not recommended for day-to-day usage. They are meant for infrequent longer road trips or emergency fill ups. Using your slower home-based 8-hour charger will make your battery last a lot longer.
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Jun 5, 2013 22:57
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Colonel Sanders posted:If stopping to recharge a Tesla takes 20 minutes, on average how long does it take to pump a tank of gas? I have never timed it myself, but I would guess that it takes between 3 to 5min to pump 10 gallons into my econobox. If I am on a long trip, I usually stop and go spend money on low quality junk food in the gas station, hell I could probably easily waste 20 minutes at a charging station. Feels like 20 minutes just to pump gas for me. All the pumps started asking for zip codes, if I want a car wash, fuel additives, if I have a club card, etc. Each question seems to take a minute to process my answer. The pumps also are set to "slow mode" unless I'm filling up on my lunch break. I'd actually think using the Tesla supercharger might be faster.
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Jun 5, 2013 23:03
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Squibbles posted:From the few articles I read about the super charging stations today they seemed to indicate that using a supercharger is actually pretty hard on your battery and is not recommended for day-to-day usage. They are meant for infrequent longer road trips or emergency fill ups. Using your slower home-based 8-hour charger will make your battery last a lot longer. The Tesla website claims that the Supercharger doesn't affect battery life or warranty at all. I have no idea if that's the same for all chargers. I've had an implicit understanding that cramming electrons into a battery in a short period of time is bad for it, but I'm not sure that's ever really been backed up by real data. I'd be interested in seeing some links on that, as I use my local CHAdeMO once a week.
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Jun 5, 2013 23:34
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The big fear of charging a battery quickly is heat. If Tesla is actively cooling the battery pack during charging, they can probably charge at higher currents with less wear and tear than you would normally see.
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Jun 5, 2013 23:47
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I don't think the superchargers degrade the batteries since Tesla is so good at thermal management. It doesn't matter how long it takes to charge as long as it is "overnight or less". The cost is pretty minimal. Perhaps $10 for a complete charge (I only charge %10-%15 a night with my usual daily driving). Charging at home for a few bucks is worth not having to drive 100 miles or so to the nearest supercharger.
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Jun 5, 2013 23:52
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Mortanis posted:The Tesla website claims that the Supercharger doesn't affect battery life or warranty at all. I have no idea if that's the same for all chargers. I've had an implicit understanding that cramming electrons into a battery in a short period of time is bad for it, but I'm not sure that's ever really been backed up by real data. I'd be interested in seeing some links on that, as I use my local CHAdeMO once a week. It's bad if you do it to a single cell, but Tesla uses battery packages with thousands of small cells to both make fast charging safer and to prevent Dreamliner-style battery fires, something Elon Musk loves to smugtweet about : 
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Jun 5, 2013 23:54
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Colonel Sanders posted:Personally, I think that problem could be solved by putting a quick charge station a couple blocks/miles away from work and getting rid of the at work chargers. . . Or just run 110V outlets to every parking spot at work and loose the expensive(?) lvl 2 chargers. With the e-mail list, once someone e-mails you to say they are done charging, I assume that means they have to go move their car, and you move your car, or do the charges come with a cable long enough you can park near them and just switch the plug? It might also help to have the chargers in less attractive spots. 8 of the spots are really prime parking outside a building, and the rest are 1st floor of 4 story garages. If you put them on the 3rd floor or 4th floor of the garages or farther away form the building it might help. And yes people would have to move their car in most cases, unless they happened to snag a spot just next to the EV only spot.
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Jun 6, 2013 01:05
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Cocoa Crispies posted:It's bad if you do it to a single cell, but Tesla uses battery packages with thousands of small cells to both make fast charging safer and to prevent Dreamliner-style battery fires, something Elon Musk loves to smugtweet about : This is a bit off topic, but what does the Dreamliner use batteries for? Power on the ground? Because I thought they could either keep the engines idling, or plug in to external power.
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Jun 7, 2013 00:17
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Basic stuff, like keeping the plane functioning during turbine failures  Same reason your car has a battery, just more "everyone dies without it" thing going on since it falls out of the sky if electronics don't work.
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Jun 7, 2013 01:40
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dietcokefiend posted:Same reason your car has a battery, just more "everyone dies without it" thing going on since it falls out of the sky if electronics don't work. Airplanes don't fall out of the sky, they glide rather well, for miles and miles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider The 12V system in internal combustion cars like the Mustang, Prius, Wrangler, Golf, and loving every other car runs radios, instruments, computers, and the starter motor. In passenger jets, it does the same thing, although the starter motor starts a small engine in the butt of the airplane that provides pneumatic power to start the big engines.
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Jun 7, 2013 02:57
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The real problem was thermal runaway in the battery packs causing them to burst into flames... A concern on any aircraft.
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Jun 7, 2013 03:08
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eeenmachine posted:The real problem was thermal runaway in the battery packs causing them to burst into flames... A concern on any aircraft. Yup. The Tesla and SpaceX battery packs fight that by having smaller cells, which means more surface area for heat to be conducted away from the battery chemistry to the metal casing, which conducts the heat away like a heat sink. The Dreamliner's used larger cells for the weight efficiency (which is also why they went Li-ion), which is a reasonable tradeoff to make for an airplane part. Dragging an extra few hundred pounds of battery up to 40,000 feet once a day is an entirely different matter than having a few extra pounds inches off the ground like on the Model S.
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Jun 7, 2013 03:15
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Cocoa Crispies posted:Yup. The Tesla and SpaceX battery packs fight that by having smaller cells, which means more surface area for heat to be conducted away from the battery chemistry to the metal casing, which conducts the heat away like a heat sink. The Dreamliner's used larger cells for the weight efficiency (which is also why they went Li-ion), which is a reasonable tradeoff to make for an airplane part. Dragging an extra few hundred pounds of battery up to 40,000 feet once a day is an entirely different matter than having a few extra pounds inches off the ground like on the Model S. But what about when they're taking those extra pound up into SPACE? You forgot that part in your comparison.
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Jun 7, 2013 13:46
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Cocoa Crispies posted:Yup. The Tesla and SpaceX battery packs fight that by having smaller cells, which means more surface area for heat to be conducted away from the battery chemistry to the metal casing, which conducts the heat away like a heat sink. The Dreamliner's used larger cells for the weight efficiency (which is also why they went Li-ion), which is a reasonable tradeoff to make for an airplane part. Dragging an extra few hundred pounds of battery up to 40,000 feet once a day is an entirely different matter than having a few extra pounds inches off the ground like on the Model S. I remember reading somewhere that compared to a Ni-Cad pack they only ended up saving about 35 pounds per aircraft, which given all the trouble its caused them I'm sure no one would say really ended up being a worthwhile trade off.
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Jun 7, 2013 15:06
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Coredump posted:But what about when they're taking those extra pound up into SPACE? You forgot that part in your comparison. Not every part of every Bond villain's plan has to make perfect sense.
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Jun 7, 2013 16:00
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thekeeshman posted:I remember reading somewhere that compared to a Ni-Cad pack they only ended up saving about 35 pounds per aircraft, which given all the trouble its caused them I'm sure no one would say really ended up being a worthwhile trade off. Plane designers are pretty obsessive about saving weight. Just look at the F35 story about the sacrifices they made just to save a few pounds. And that was just to save 11 lbs!!
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Jun 7, 2013 17:11
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Squibbles posted:Plane designers are pretty obsessive about saving weight. Just look at the F35 story about the sacrifices they made just to save a few pounds. And that was just to save 11 lbs!! Yeah but that is more because the F-35 is an overprice horrendous piece of poo poo, jack of all trades, master of sucking at everything. Bring back the F-22 and F/A-18 please.
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Jun 7, 2013 18:06
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Squibbles posted:Plane designers are pretty obsessive about saving weight. Just look at the F35 story about the sacrifices they made just to save a few pounds. And that was just to save 11 lbs!! That's more about government contractors wanting to drive up costs; if they go over budget the penalty is they get more money.
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Jun 7, 2013 18:22
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