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Heart Attacks: Jun 17, 2012; That's how it works for magical girls.

Rand Brittain posted:

As far as mechanics previews go, it seems pretty obvious to me that there are no mechanics previews because the book isn't done yet. I mean, it's not really even a secret, so I don't know why people aren't jumping to what seems to me to be the obvious conclusion�that Holden and hatewheel have no intention of showing anybody anything that could be criticized until the whole rules draft is ready to be sent to the playtesters.

They told us they've been working on this since at least last year.

The Kickstarter says that people should expect to have the PDF in their hands by October.

If the game has at least eight months behind it (I believe November was when it was announced, and I'm pretty sure they said they started working on it long before then), and they expect to have it in peoples hands, polished and ready to go, in three months, how can they not have anything worth showing people yet?

edit: it was probably announced before November, since "before Christmas" was their original release estimate.

Heart Attacks fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Jun 7, 2013

# ? Jun 7, 2013 03:00

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# ? May 28, 2024 08:06

xiw: Sep 25, 2011; i wake up at night
night action madness nightmares
maybe i am scum
Cpig Haiku contest 2020 winner

I'm really surprised they haven't given more info about the momentum concept and how fights will work yet - I was completely expecting that to be a big last-week preview, especially given the caginess with the tyrant lizard stats. It seems pretty much too late for that now.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 03:04

cenotaph: Mar 2, 2013

Lymond posted:

I rate them as having a very good track record on setting and a mixed one on mechanics. Glories of the Most High and Ink Monkeys had mechanical content that ranged from clever to what-the-hell-were-you-thinking. Alchemicals was good overall. The 2.5 update is an unfinished mess with many good insights. There's the potential for a solid product there, definitely�but their previous work isn't solid enough to reassure me.

My biggest concern is how good they are at dealing with feedback. Playtesting is going to be crucial for their new combat engine, and Holden and John haven't dealt with criticism too well so far. I'm not just referring to the Abyssal preview: back in the day, Holden's reaction to criticism for Cobra Style (which was seriously broken) was along the lines of "I'm disappointed that all you people want Martial Arts to suck", and more recently it's been "people were being hysterical, it's not so bad".

This is precisely what I'm getting at. There is a precedent for blindly defensive reactions to criticisms of mechanical gaffes. I would like something other than pointing at those same mechanics and saying "don't worry, we've learned."

Rand Brittain posted:

As far as mechanics previews go, it seems pretty obvious to me that there are no mechanics previews because the book isn't done yet. I mean, it's not really even a secret, so I don't know why people aren't jumping to what seems to me to be the obvious conclusion�that Holden and hatewheel have no intention of showing anybody anything that could be criticized until the whole rules draft is ready to be sent to the playtesters.

They ran a playtest at a con. Holden keeps mentioning the word count for the combat system. The system is done enough to give us a stat block for a T-Rex. Let's see some more of it! They don't want to put up with criticism by releasing mechanical bits out of context but they're literally already doing that with the dinosaur, solar xp and the merit previews. And like I pointed out, criticism of the solar xp thing has already resulted in hatewheel saying he's reconsidering things. Adopting this sort of siege mentality is kind of baffling.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 03:10

Adept Nightingale: Feb 7, 2005

Mikan posted:

They put out some cool (and not-so-cool) houserules for an existing product. That's one thing, creating a new system is another.

Alchemicals was not a book of houserules. You've really got a thing about this.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 03:14

Mikan: Sep 5, 2007; by Radium

Nightskye posted:

Alchemicals was not a book of houserules. You've really got a thing about this.

It's also not a brand new system, which is my point. It's hilarious that skepticism or somebody being critical of an RPG thing becomes "you've really got a thing about this" though.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 03:17

Adept Nightingale: Feb 7, 2005

You keep making your point by overstating some perceived lack of experience for a group of writers who've been in place on the line for several years now. I'm pretty much just talking about this specifically, not "anybody being critical." You, specifically, really seem to have a thing about this, and I don't entirely get it. They put out some of the best books in the 2E line. This is why so many people are taking them on faith.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 03:20

Heart Attacks: Jun 17, 2012; That's how it works for magical girls.

Nightskye posted:

They put out some of the best books in the 2E line.

They also put out some of the worst mechanics. Did Holden do the Alchemicals Charms? At least those were mechanically sound (if specific to the point of being stifling in practice.) Morke thought it was a good idea to turn the Unconquered Sun into a raid boss, complete with transformation sequence into Ultimate Boss Form (which was simultaneously not a fun idea and not well-executed mechanically.) Holden has expressed that, at the end of the day, he isn't too worried about mechanical rigor because he can just ignore that stuff.

Add that stuff together and top it off with "We aren't showing people any of the system because they'll get angry if we do," and man, I don't know how you can defend their approach to this.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 03:28

Old Kentucky Shark: May 25, 2012; If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.

xiw posted:

I'm really surprised they haven't given more info about the momentum concept and how fights will work yet - I was completely expecting that to be a big last-week preview, especially given the caginess with the tyrant lizard stats. It seems pretty much too late for that now.

Same here. I figured that we'd at least see a few core book charms tossed out as party favor previews by this point, or something to show off the new combat additions. It's amazing, in retrospect, that the fuckzombie charms are the only complete charm tree they've displayed so far.

The lack of mechanical previews is a valid criticism, at this point, if only because "we're fixing the broken mechanical underpinnings of 2e" is supposed to be one of the major selling points.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 03:28

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

Mikan posted:

It's also not a brand new system, which is my point. It's hilarious that skepticism or somebody being critical of an RPG thing becomes "you've really got a thing about this" though.

I can understand why people are skeptical and critical of this game, and respect their reasons why. Again, they've only teased mechanical details at us, and if you find that dubious then it's totally understandable given the clusterfuck that was 2E mechanics. You have a low opinion about this game's prospects and valid reasons for feeling that way. That said, you, specifically do have a thing about this, given your history writing for this game. It doesn't mean I respect your reasons any less.

Heart Attacks posted:

Add that stuff together and top it off with "We aren't showing people any of the system because they'll get angry if we do," and man, I don't know how you can defend their approach to this.

I can't justify their decision to not release more mechanics but speaking about their work for 2E, generally? I liked their mechanics for the most part.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 03:32

Adept Nightingale: Feb 7, 2005

Heart Attacks posted:

They also put out some of the worst mechanics. Did Holden do the Alchemicals Charms? At least those were mechanically sound (if specific to the point of being stifling in practice.) Morke thought it was a good idea to turn the Unconquered Sun into a raid boss, complete with transformation sequence into Ultimate Boss Form (which was simultaneously not a fun idea and not well-executed mechanically.) Holden has expressed that, at the end of the day, he isn't too worried about mechanical rigor because he can just ignore that stuff.

Add that stuff together and top it off with "We aren't showing people any of the system because they'll get angry if we do," and man, I don't know how you can defend their approach to this.

I'm pretty surprised and disappointed they haven't done mechanics previews myself, don't misunderstand. It's a weird strategy, and one that seems focused on avoiding being put in a position to need to either A) fix obvious holes that playtesting will bear out while trying to finalize content for a September release or B) Ignore feedback to avoid the workload problems and take the PR hit that goes with that. I don't really care much for that sort of priority, I just uh... don't think that people who think they can make this work are taking a blind shot in the dark. It's a little unfair to act like these guys just appeared out of nowhere, no evidence of their work anywhere apparent.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 03:32

GreenMetalSun: Oct 12, 2012

Heart Attacks posted:

Morke thought it was a good idea to turn the Unconquered Sun into a raid boss, complete with transformation sequence into Ultimate Boss Form (which was simultaneously not a fun idea and not well-executed mechanically.)

Glories also contained the bit where the USC was Jesus/Aslan/Captain America who pretty much won the Primordial War single-handedly by beating all the Primordials at once at the Games of Divinity because he's just so awesome.

It also gave the Maidens time travel and had Lunar Spousal Abuse, the Charm Tree.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 03:42

Heart Attacks: Jun 17, 2012; That's how it works for magical girls.

GreenMetalSun posted:

Glories also contained the bit where the USC was Jesus/Aslan/Captain America who pretty much won the Primordial War single-handedly by beating all the Primordials at once at the Games of Divinity because he's just so awesome.

It also gave the Maidens time travel and had Lunar Spousal Abuse, the Charm Tree.

Yep.

So the current developers have a track record, yeah, I'm just not convinced that their track record, uh, inspires blind confidence.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 03:44

Adept Nightingale: Feb 7, 2005

Honestly, at this point I'm primarily excited about the setting update-- on that they seem to have a lot of really solid ideas I'm looking forward to incorporating. The mechanics are somewhat secondary to me. If they can make something more playable than 2E (and let's be frank, that is not a high bar to clear) then we're good, really. I'm not expecting perfection, just a framework that, well, works.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 03:53

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

GreenMetalSun posted:

Glories also contained the bit where the USC was Jesus/Aslan/Captain America who pretty much won the Primordial War single-handedly by beating all the Primordials at once at the Games of Divinity because he's just so awesome.

It also gave the Maidens time travel and had Lunar Spousal Abuse, the Charm Tree.

On the other hand, we also had Shards of the Exalted Dream, Compass: Autochthonia, and all the work they did getting Exalted 2E to be semi-playable. So, you know, it wasn't rape-ghosts all the way down.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 03:53

Slightly Lions: Apr 13, 2009; Look what I can do!

Glories also had Crane Style, a really cool discourse on the metaphysics of Fate, an SMA that functions beyond beyond giving everyone involved a headache, and an interpretation of Luna that made me actually want to play a Lunar. Also, and I seem to be the only person on the internet with this opinion, prayer pieces are really cool. Something about shooting monsters with a blessed relic powered by dozens of least gods singing hymns of praise to Him on High is the Most Exalted Thing.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 04:02

GreenMetalSun: Oct 12, 2012

Bedlamdan posted:

On the other hand, we also had Shards of the Exalted Dream, Compass: Autochthonia, and all the work they did getting Exalted 2E to be semi-playable. So, you know, it wasn't rape-ghosts all the way down.

Glories was the last book for 2E I read and it convinced me to stop reading Exalted.

Who did the DB errata? I remember when it hit I wanted to run a game, and found it to be pretty poo poo.

I mean, someone looked at the Primordial sub-soul possession Charm in the Bureaucracy tree and was like, 'awwwww yeah, this is a good idea'. Not to mention the whole, 'Guess what, you have Charms that don't even work unless you're in the presence of your august Celestial masters!' (I remember Holden bragging about the Defense-Against-Anathema Charm being changed to do that, but not if he actually did it.)

# ? Jun 7, 2013 04:06

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Nightskye posted:

Honestly, at this point I'm primarily excited about the setting update-- on that they seem to have a lot of really solid ideas I'm looking forward to incorporating.

Complete agreement. I'm one of those exceptions who gets much more into politics than metaphysical fiddly bits, and I really like the emphasis that they've put back into that. What the writers have said about the different Directions, their work on the new map, a new signature circle that seems appealing, the de-emphasis of the Yozis�all of this speaks to a lot of thought on what they're doing. I have tempered expectations on the mechanics, but I'm pledging for the setting.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 04:08

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

GreenMetalSun posted:

Glories was the last book for 2E I read and it convinced me to stop reading Exalted.

Who did the DB errata? I remember when it hit I wanted to run a game, and found it to be pretty poo poo.

I mean, someone looked at the Primordial sub-soul possession Charm in the Bureaucracy tree and was like, 'awwwww yeah, this is a good idea'. Not to mention the whole, 'Guess what, you have Charms that don't even work unless you're in the presence of your august Celestial masters!' (I remember Holden bragging about the Defense-Against-Anathema Charm being changed to do that, but not if he actually did it.)

Were the Dragonblooded seriously better pre-Errata? With that one integrity charm that was basically save-or-die sans the save, and the charm that turns water into a mild intoxicant (and that was pretty much it)?

Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Jun 7, 2013

# ? Jun 7, 2013 04:09

A_Raving_Loon: Dec 12, 2008; Subtle
Quick to Anger

GreenMetalSun posted:

Not to mention the whole, 'Guess what, you have Charms that don't even work unless you're in the presence of your august Celestial masters!' (I remember Holden bragging about the Defense-Against-Anathema Charm being changed to do that, but not if he actually did it.)

Well, if there aren't any 'nathema around, what are you defending against?

# ? Jun 7, 2013 04:09

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

GreenMetalSun posted:

Glories was the last book for 2E I read and it convinced me to stop reading Exalted.

Who did the DB errata? I remember when it hit I wanted to run a game, and found it to be pretty poo poo.

I mean, someone looked at the Primordial sub-soul possession Charm in the Bureaucracy tree and was like, 'awwwww yeah, this is a good idea'. Not to mention the whole, 'Guess what, you have Charms that don't even work unless you're in the presence of your august Celestial masters!' (I remember Holden bragging about the Defense-Against-Anathema Charm being changed to do that, but not if he actually did it.)

Nephilpal did Ten Thousand Correct Actions. He also did the DB "nuke a city in 10 seconds flat" Charm for Dreams of the First Age. Much as I like the man, I find a lot of his work to be ~~extremely questionable~~ bad.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 04:11

GreenMetalSun: Oct 12, 2012

Bedlamdan posted:

Were the Dragonblooded seriously better pre-Errata? With that one integrity charm that was basically save-or-die sans the save, and the charm that turns water into a mild intoxicant (and that was pretty much it)?

That's not exactly what I meant. Dragon-Blooded were indeed terrible pre-errata.

It's just that there's some seriously glaring WTF'ery with the errata. Like Primordial sub-soul possession Charms, 'this charm doesn't work properly unless you're in the presence of your proper masters, because you aren't a real Exalt' Charms, 'spend essence and roll to do a thing you you should be able to do without magic' Charms, and 'this is pretty much an Excellency with a different name' Charms.

Lymond posted:

Nephilpal did Ten Thousand Correct Actions. He also did the DB "nuke a city in 10 seconds flat" Charm for Dreams of the First Age. Much as I like the man, I find a lot of his work to be ~~extremely questionable~~ bad.

Ah, thanks.

GreenMetalSun fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Jun 7, 2013

# ? Jun 7, 2013 04:20

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

Lymond posted:

Nephilpal did Ten Thousand Correct Actions. He also did the DB "nuke a city in 10 seconds flat" Charm for Dreams of the First Age. Much as I like the man, I find a lot of his work to be ~~extremely questionable~~ bad.

Not to keep throwing Nephilpal under the bus over and over again, I still think that DBs were better post Thousand Correct Actions than prior to it. It seems that there wasn't really any of the wonkiness in Defense From Anathema method that Green Metal Sun mentioned though. It was just expanded to work on both Celestial Exalted and Creatures of Darkness.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 04:36

GreenMetalSun: Oct 12, 2012

Bedlamdan posted:

Not to keep throwing Nephilpal under the bus over and over again, I still think that DBs were better post Thousand Correct Actions than prior to it. It seems that there wasn't really any of the wonkiness in Defense From Anathema method that Green Metal Sun mentioned though. It was just expanded to work on both Celestial Exalted and Creatures of Darkness.

It's.... right there in the Charm description.

DB Errata posted:

The Terrestrial�s Essence surges in response to the presence of the greater Chosen, bolstering his stolidity to make him immovable and inexorable: the perfect soldier. When using this Charm within (Essence x 100) yards of a Celestial Exalt, add the Terrestrial�s Essence to his DVs and MDVs.

GreenMetalSun fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Jun 7, 2013

# ? Jun 7, 2013 04:40

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

GreenMetalSun posted:

It's.... right there in the Charm description.

I think my copy is different from yours.

quote:

For the purposes of this Charm, Anathema includes Celestial Exalted and all creatures of darkness. The defense bonus also applies against complementary units predominantly composed of or led by such beings. The capacity to ward against Creation�s enemies is a Holy effect. The defense against Celestials draws on Gaia�s Primordial power and her love for her descendants to protect them from the worst abuses of the Incarnae�s Chosen, a feat the Yozis cannot match in their broken state.

The sub-soul charm is totally in my copy though. For the rest, it just looks like the only relationship DBs have with Celestials is that Celestial Exalts count as blood relatives.

Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Jun 7, 2013

# ? Jun 7, 2013 04:45

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

"Defense from Anathema" both granting you defense thanks to your anathema buddies and, coincidentally, defending you against your anathema foes is pretty funny.

Also, new thread tag, y'all. We doin' this.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 04:45

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

Ferrinus posted:

"Defense from Anathema" both granting you defense thanks to your anathema buddies and, coincidentally, defending you against your anathema foes is pretty funny.

Also, new thread tag, y'all. We doin' this.

Ahahaha oh boy.

Seriously though guys, I am not condoning rape in elfgames. Again, so we're clear. :ohdear:

# ? Jun 7, 2013 04:51

GreenMetalSun: Oct 12, 2012

Bedlamdan posted:

I think my copy is different from yours.

Well, here's the full text. I just went and re-downloaded it to be sure.

You Guys Are Not Even Real Exalted posted:

Defense-From-Anathema Method
(p. 146)
Cost: 5m, 1wp
Keywords: Combo-OK, Leader 5, Native
In the First Age, this Charm was known as Dragon�s Parable Defense. It gained its modern name only when it was turned to the task of hunting the Celestial Exalted.
Replace the text of this Charm with the following:
Gaia ordered that the Dragon-Blooded should be the perfect army for the Celestial Host. This Charm gets power from this unique relationship between Terrestrial and Celestial Exalted. The Terrestrial�s Essence surges in response to the presence of the greater Chosen, bolstering his stolidity to make him immovable and inexorable: the perfect soldier. When using this Charm within (Essence x 100) yards of a Celestial Exalt, add the Terrestrial�s Essence to his DVs and MDVs. The bonuses garnered from Defense-From-Anathema Method apply to all attacks the character experiences, regardless of their source, so long as the Charm remains in effect.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 04:53

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

GreenMetalSun posted:

Well, here's the full text. I just went and re-downloaded it to be sure.

Yeah, it looks like the text in Thousand Correct Actions and the text in the current errata don't match up.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 04:54

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

GreenMetalSun posted:

That's not exactly what I meant. Dragon-Blooded were indeed terrible pre-errata.

It's just that there's some seriously glaring WTF'ery with the errata. Like Primordial sub-soul possession Charms, 'this charm doesn't work properly unless you're in the presence of your proper masters, because you aren't a real Exalt' Charms, 'spend essence and roll to do a thing you you should be able to do without magic' Charms, and 'this is pretty much an Excellency with a different name' Charms.

Add to that (in TCA):
* butchering the tone of the Mass Combat system (entire armies can now jump mountains, etc.);
* more Purity Charms;
* scene-long Charm to substitute Dodge MDV for Dodge DV for Solars and Abyssals;
* building on the instant city-block annihilation Charm (Dragon Vortex Attack) rather than nerfing it back into its (reasonable) 1E incarnation;
* the inclusion of a new keyword that made Dragon-Blooded overpower other Exalted in Mass Combat. This was supposed to be okay because all other Exalted would also have the Leader keyword retrofitted into their charmsets. After all, it's not as though there were any more important priorities for errata.

:v:

Lymond fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Jun 7, 2013

# ? Jun 7, 2013 05:01

Ash Rose: Sep 3, 2011; Where is Megaman?

In queer, with us!

More than anything I just want the "you are not a real exalt" thing to go the hell away in 3e. In any reasonable game they would just make a distinction between NPCs and PCs that would allow DBs play nice with the other splats, but VERISIMILITUDE demands they suck.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 06:20

cenotaph: Mar 2, 2013

Nightskye posted:

You keep making your point by overstating some perceived lack of experience for a group of writers who've been in place on the line for several years now. I'm pretty much just talking about this specifically, not "anybody being critical." You, specifically, really seem to have a thing about this, and I don't entirely get it. They put out some of the best books in the 2E line. This is why so many people are taking them on faith.

I personally think the best books of 2e weren't that good. I'll probably like what they're doing now because they are ditching the focus on metaphysics, the weird/silly high level content, and presumably the dumb mechanics that go with those things. I don't think anyone has criticized anyone for backing the project on faith. Personally I'm thankful for those people, two of whom are in my group, because that means the game has a chance to get made. I don't view them as suckers or or wonder why they pledged.

Here's the thing, though: taking a broken system and making it funky in different ways isn't proof that you can design a core system. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for previews when we're being asked to just trust them on the strength of the content they already put out. For every great mechanical concept they propose (but haven't detailed!), they commit to stuff like the BP/XP divide and having story merits. Holden's argument for these is "If I can powergame Nobilis I'm not going to bother thinking too hard about balancing this." Do you understand why this stuff plus the lack of a mechanical preview breeds skepticism? I'm not some sort of conspiracy nut saying they're scamming money but the game is due out in four months and we don't have any idea how it plays.

I'm hopeful, perhaps even cautiously optimistic that the game will be good but it's time for them to back it up with some crunch. I have questions I've been wanting to ask since November but I don't even know enough about the system to frame them in an intelligible way. I guess I won't for quite a while.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 07:59

pospysyl: Nov 10, 2012

Nightskye posted:

Honestly, at this point I'm primarily excited about the setting update-- on that they seem to have a lot of really solid ideas I'm looking forward to incorporating. The mechanics are somewhat secondary to me. If they can make something more playable than 2E (and let's be frank, that is not a high bar to clear) then we're good, really. I'm not expecting perfection, just a framework that, well, works.

I'm the exact opposite! All their setting ideas sound way too drab and serious. Like, taking the Exalted setting as a serious Forgotten Realms style setting is the absolutely wrong direction to go. I do believe that they're going to produce something playable, because even all their bad charms were still usable. You couldn't say that about some of the early charms, the Scroll of the Monk, or ( :regd08:

) Neph's worse charms. Then again, "not headache inducing to even read" isn't the highest praise.

cenotaph posted:

I personally think the best books of 2e weren't that good. I'll probably like what they're doing now because they are ditching the focus on metaphysics, the weird/silly high level content, and presumably the dumb mechanics that go with those things. I don't think anyone has criticized anyone for backing the project on faith. Personally I'm thankful for those people, two of whom are in my group, because that means the game has a chance to get made. I don't view them as suckers or or wonder why they pledged.

Here's the thing, though: taking a broken system and making it funky in different ways isn't proof that you can design a core system. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for previews when we're being asked to just trust them on the strength of the content they already put out. For every great mechanical concept they propose (but haven't detailed!), they commit to stuff like the BP/XP divide and having story merits. Holden's argument for these is "If I can powergame Nobilis I'm not going to bother thinking too hard about balancing this." Do you understand why this stuff plus the lack of a mechanical preview breeds skepticism? I'm not some sort of conspiracy nut saying they're scamming money but the game is due out in four months and we don't have any idea how it plays.

I'm hopeful, perhaps even cautiously optimistic that the game will be good but it's time for them to back it up with some crunch. I have questions I've been wanting to ask since November but I don't even know enough about the system to frame them in an intelligible way. I guess I won't for quite a while.

The lack of real previews is concerning. Really, the only system they've actually designed is Burn Legend, and even though that's fun, it's not exactly a full game. I do think the complaints about the spoiled bad mechanics are exaggerated, but there aren't a lot of good mechanics to counter them with.

Honestly, I don't think 3e is going to be great like everyone was hoping or even expecting. I do like the wackier stuff the devs have written, and I have faith that their combat and charms systems will work. The game will probably be decent, but that's about it. I still want usable systems to model the stuff that I really like and I believe that's what I'm going to get, but there is really not much to be enthusiastic about yet.

I am excited about Exigents, though! Man, if only there was already a game that allowed you to play as the powers of mundane things.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 08:28

Denim Avenger: Oct 20, 2010; Excelente

GreenMetalSun posted:

Not to mention the whole, 'Guess what, you have Charms that don't even work unless you're in the presence of your august Celestial masters!' (I remember Holden bragging about the Defense-Against-Anathema Charm being changed to do that, but not if he actually did it.)

Defense Against Anathema Method was a charm that really should have never existed, but it was written anyway and when making Errata they were stuck with it, so the eventual fix that it was suppose to be "Dragon-Blooded are better when working with Celestials" always struck me as a clever way to fix it. It wasn't a perfect solution, but it was a move towards helping Dragon-Blooded be relevant in Mixed Caste games/

# ? Jun 7, 2013 09:18

GreenMetalSun: Oct 12, 2012

Denim Avenger posted:

Defense Against Anathema Method was a charm that really should have never existed, but it was written anyway and when making Errata they were stuck with it, so the eventual fix that it was suppose to be "Dragon-Blooded are better when working with Celestials" always struck me as a clever way to fix it. It wasn't a perfect solution, but it was a move towards helping Dragon-Blooded be relevant in Mixed Caste games/

The original intent or game balance or canonical issues with the Charm aren't really my point. There are literally dozens of other Charms they swapped out or re-wrote completely.

My point is that, 'you, as a PC, can spend XP on a power that literally does nothing unless you're being a servant to a more important type of PC', is something that Holden both bragged about and praised as good game design. People are talking about the writer's current track record, and that's part of it.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 10:09

Oligopsony: May 17, 2007

So 3e is going to debut Liminal, Getiminian, Exigent, and two different types of undersea Exalted (in addition to Solar, Lunar, Sidereal, Terrestrial, Abyssal, Alchemical, and Infernal Exalted.) That's... a lot of Exalted.

Mikan posted:

Holden also conducted all real discussions of the issue in private discussions, used an RPGnet poster as a gatekeeper to keep away anyone with criticisms, lied to some people and offered different versions of the story and how apologetic they were depending on who he was talking to. Even if you ignore what was said in those private discussions or don't want to take someone's word for them, doing everything in private and relying on someone else to handle the flak is manipulative and awful.

Based on the private correspondence I've seen myself, I actually do understand why some of the more concrete reasons for reassurance can't be broadcasted. From an outside perspective, though, I'm aware that this sounds like bullshit and probably shouldn't count as evidence.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 10:30

Flavivirus: Dec 14, 2011; The next stage of evolution.

GreenMetalSun posted:

The original intent or game balance or canonical issues with the Charm aren't really my point. There are literally dozens of other Charms they swapped out or re-wrote completely.

My point is that, 'you, as a PC, can spend XP on a power that literally does nothing unless you're being a servant to a more important type of PC', is something that Holden both bragged about and praised as good game design. People are talking about the writer's current track record, and that's part of it.

It also works on fighting celestials, so I'm not sure what the problem is? The rewrite gave the charm the ability a use in DotFA or mixed-splat games, and provided an interesting answer for 'Why would the dragons give DBs the power to kill Celestials better when they were made to help them?' It even increases DB's protagonism by having them use a tool created to make them better servants to overthrow their appointed masters.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 10:36

Heart Attacks: Jun 17, 2012; That's how it works for magical girls.

quote:

Based on the private correspondence I've seen myself, I actually do understand why some of the more concrete reasons for reassurance can't be broadcasted. From an outside perspective, though, I'm aware that this sounds like bullshit and probably shouldn't count as evidence.

I think Holden gets off on doing the I know something that you don't thing. He's been doing it since long before he was an important person in the Exalted lineup.

Now he's learned the Charm that lets him do it through other people.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 10:38

carborexic: Nov 9, 2008

Flavivirus posted:

It also works on fighting celestials, so I'm not sure what the problem is? The rewrite gave the charm the ability a use in DotFA or mixed-splat games, and provided an interesting answer for 'Why would the dragons give DBs the power to kill Celestials better when they were made to help them?' It even increases DB's protagonism by having them use a tool created to make them better servants to overthrow their appointed masters.

It also makes every other Charm that adds to DV or MDV obsolete in it's original form, so changing the scope does seem like an improvement of sorts.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 11:01

MiltonSlavemasta: Feb 12, 2009; And the cats in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
"When you coming home, dad?"
"I don't know when
We'll get together then son you know we'll have a good time then."

Well, talking too much about Exalted caused me to have a dream about Exalted. At least, in the dream, I was certain it had to do with Exalted. I'll try to get the gist of it down. I'm terrible at fantasy-prose-writing, though.

Milton's INVOLUNTARY IMAGINATION posted:

It's dusk. A well-built man with dark grey skin, marred my mottled, purple blotches on his back, lets his black eyes stare up at a barren mountain. The scrubland that separates it from him has nothing but cracks, tumbleweeds, and the occasional frail, grasping skeleton of a tree, and the air is filled with a red, malignant dust, choking him and his companion. She's a broad-shouldered woman with shockingly white hair and skin of alabaster- No, her body is actually composed of alabaster. The man doesn't care. He's still staring at the top of the mountain, wherein lies a city and a citadel all at once. His heart, if he has one, is racing with a mixture of fury and trepidation. The woman sighs. "It's fine, Rael. Just keep your mind on what they've done."

Rael balls both his fists and makes a low, grumbling noise. The perspective changes, and now the city atop the mountain is at the base of the field of view. A massive, grasping hand, reaches out for any one of three people. He can't see them, but he can sense them. The first is caught unawares, and a giant middle and index finger snatch them up into a grip with a thumb the size of a carriage. They're split in two. The others are made aware, though, and are now too keen to be caught by the massive being's hands. This doesn't stop him from crashing his fists into every hiding place like meteors.

There's a moment of seeing nothing but black, and suddenly Rael is back at ground level, human sized, panting. The two of them have found him. The modest, black clothing they wear looks like the trappings of some religious order, and their blades are lithe and small, blue and purple. He turns towards the one charging his front, and as the other prepares to slip a daiklave in-between his ribs from behind, he arches his back. This causes the strike to sever his spinal cord, and he begins to waver on his feet. While the religious attacker stands triumphant, the purple stains begin to disappear from his back. Suddenly, white, charged liquid metal jets out of the hole in his spinal cord, vaporizing the skull of his would-be killer in an instant. The rest of his back turns to ash, and Rael's arms bend back at impossible angles and lift up the torso of his attacker. He puts himself back together. The last member of the religious order stares at him with incredulity, unable to do anything, and the alabaster woman takes this moment to rip his heart out. She watches it continue to beat in her frozen, stone hands, examining it closely before deciding to toss it on the ground.

The man's shaking. "It's fine. Rael. We'll find someplace else, just like all the other times."

Kinda stoked for Liminals now, tbh.

# ? Jun 7, 2013 11:02

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# ? May 28, 2024 08:06

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

Lymond posted:

I rate them as having a very good track record on setting and a mixed one on mechanics. Glories of the Most High and Ink Monkeys had mechanical content that ranged from clever to what-the-hell-were-you-thinking. Alchemicals was good overall.

Alchemicals also had Thousandfold Courtesan Calculations, perhaps one of the most ~~broken~~ potent social charms in the game; combined with other Appearance charms, it was a win button for social conflicts in the form of the enhancement Ultimate Ardor Upgrade. The upgrade removed the limiter on Appearance bonuses, so it was possible for a maximized alchemical to get 11-15 bonus dice on social rolls while the their foe got an 11-15 dice penalty. So if you wanted to be the best social alchemical you could be, you had to install kama.sutra.exe.

More to the point, it had an upgrade called Synthetic Bliss Engrams which let you impose an ongoing lust or infatuation intimacy on a target after having sex with them.

Just a little historical note.

Alien Rope Burn fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Jun 7, 2013

# ? Jun 7, 2013 14:47

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