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Devyl posted:Speaking as a heavy cannabis user, you're a loving dumbass for driving high. As a driver of a motor vehicle, your job is to focus on the road and pay attention to your surroundings. You're driving a 2,000+ lb. death trap at great speed. It doesn't matter if you just finished a joint, a six pack, a tab of LSD, or are busy with some other distraction (like texting or using a laptop, etc.); you're loving stupid for driving under the influence. You need to keep your attention where it counts. No one is perfect, and accidents are sometimes unavoidable. But with your mind altered, you should not drive. I was sort of following this cop car once. Well, not following it, but he was a car length or so ahead one lane over. He kept swerving strangely as he drove down the road, significantly enough that I noticed because it seemed hazardous to myself. As we got up to a red light, we ended up sitting next to each other waiting for the light to change. Fucker was playing solitaire  What the christ indeed. Never underestimate people's ability to make fairly terrible decisions.
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Jun 7, 2013 04:05
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Mrit posted:No, if anything will stall reform its whiny babies who complain about the amazing progress that is being made because you can't yet stroll into 7-11 and buy Heroin. This sort of thing needs to move in steps. You mean like this guy? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/25/the-wire-creator-us-drug-laws
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Jun 7, 2013 06:24
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Mrit posted:No, if anything will stall reform its whiny babies who complain about the amazing progress that is being made because you can't yet stroll into 7-11 and buy Heroin. This sort of thing needs to move in steps. The primary reason why the California's Prop 19 failed was because they were unwise enough to attempt it during a midterm election- the kind that only the elderly reliably turn out for. Had they waited until 2012 for the Presidential election they would've won it by a landslide. Brave New World fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Jun 7, 2013 |
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Jun 7, 2013 10:11
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KingEup posted:You mean like this guy? David Simon posted:"I want the thing to fall as one complete edifice. If they manage to let a few white middle-class people off the hook, that's very dangerous. If they can find a way for white kids in middle-class suburbia to get high without them going to jail," he continued, "and getting them to think that what they do is a million miles away from black kids taking crack, that is what politicians would do." He may not be wrong, though. I personally disagree, because mj laws still disproportionately harm hispanic and black people and I think legalizing weed is a positive step, but partial legalization could easily have the effect he is describing.
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Jun 7, 2013 17:04
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800peepee51doodoo posted:He may not be wrong, though. I personally disagree, because mj laws still disproportionately harm hispanic and black people and I think legalizing weed is a positive step, but partial legalization could easily have the effect he is describing. Yeah, I can definitely see where he's coming from and I think there's a chance he could be totally right. But in the end I'm not able to take the stance of telling minorities busted on possession charges 'Sorry we kept the pot ban on the books, but we really want an all or nothing approach for the benefit of the whole movement.' I just have to hope that marijuana legalization helps the wider population realize that the way we're dealing with the whole war on drugs is crazy. I mean clean needle exchanges and the like used to be looked at as crazy and illegal by the general population and that stance has evolved some what, so I have to feel like there's hope to change those attitudes outside of using white suburbanites getting busted for pot to fuel a wider end to the war on drugs.
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Jun 7, 2013 19:56
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Bad news from Maine. Our state house just voted against a Colorado style legalization bill, 71-67. So close! Supporters vow to get the measure up for referendum in 2016. I'm like: What's wrong with 2014? Or would off-Presidential cycles be bad for a legalization bill? http://www.pressherald.com/maine-house-rejects-bill-to-put-pot-legalization-to-statewide-vote_2013-06-07.html
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Jun 8, 2013 04:30
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redshirt posted:Bad news from Maine. Our state house just voted against a Colorado style legalization bill, 71-67. So close! Off cycle elections have lower turn out that tends to skew older and thus more conservative. So yeah, popular political wisdom is that Presidential elections would make a successful referendum more likely. Plus long term opinion seems to be slightly in favor of legalization. Waiting for both those extra boost helps ensure they don't blow a lot of time and money on a doomed campaign like the recent one in California.
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Jun 8, 2013 04:36
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redshirt posted:Or would off-Presidential cycles be bad for a legalization bill?
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Jun 8, 2013 05:06
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redshirt posted:Bad news from Maine. Our state house just voted against a Colorado style legalization bill, 71-67. So close! 4 Votes. 4 loving votes... The good news is, 2016 would appear to be a sure bet. And once everyone sees how much Colorado and Washington are about to start raking in, states will be lining up to join in.
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Jun 8, 2013 05:24
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bawfuls posted:Yes. Remember, Prop 19 failed in California in 2010 Yeah, you need to have the turn out of a presidential election to outvote the pot growers trying to keep weed illegal like they did in california. Also, that original link posted by redshirt said that the Maine house was voting to put a referendum on the ballot but other sources are saying it was actual legislation? This says referendum vote: http://bangordailynews.com/2013/05/03/news/state/sponsor-of-bill-says-maine-will-legalize-marijuana-one-way-or-another/ e: the "other sources" I saw were loving Reason magazine so yeah, it was a bill to put legalization to a popular vote
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Jun 8, 2013 05:40
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800peepee51doodoo posted:Yeah, you need to have the turn out of a presidential election to outvote the pot growers trying to keep weed illegal like they did in california. The Maine medical marijuana lobby came out hard against this bill too. How freaking shortsighted!
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Jun 8, 2013 13:08
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redshirt posted:The Maine medical marijuana lobby came out hard against this bill too. How freaking shortsighted! Marijuana enthusiasts are not immune to "gently caress you Got Mine" anymore than anyone else (and probably even less so given Ron Paul ).
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Jun 8, 2013 15:05
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redshirt posted:How freaking shortsighted! It's not really, not from their perspective. They're in a protected market that is too illegal for there to be too much competition but not illegal enough to really have to fear consequences. The result is huge piles of easy money. Of course the other result is that thousands of other people end up in prison, but hey, got a break a few of your eggs to make an omelette for me. What's infuriating and ironic is that a lot of the growers I've interacted with want to keep it illegal because its an outsider lifestyle and they can pretend like they're not a part of capitalism. Seriously.
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Jun 8, 2013 15:55
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That's actually one of the reasons I'm pro-legalization, to ruin the only thing differentiating lifestyle stoners from the mainstream. They ruin it for the rest of us, anyways. I guess they'll have to become Juggalos next.
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Jun 8, 2013 16:25
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Radbot posted:That's actually one of the reasons I'm pro-legalization, to ruin the only thing differentiating lifestyle stoners from the mainstream. They ruin it for the rest of us, anyways. I guess they'll have to become Juggalos next. They're just pot hipsters. They can safely be ignored with the rest of them.
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Jun 8, 2013 18:49
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Radbot posted:That's actually one of the reasons I'm pro-legalization, to ruin the only thing differentiating lifestyle stoners from the mainstream. They ruin it for the rest of us, anyways. I guess they'll have to become Juggalos next. My favorite thing about being a "lifestyle stoner" is being consistently more successful than everyone who refers to me in such a way. My favorite thing about legalization will be flaunting this fact even more than I already do.
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Jun 8, 2013 18:52
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800peepee51doodoo posted:It's not really, not from their perspective. They're in a protected market that is too illegal for there to be too much competition but not illegal enough to really have to fear consequences. The result is huge piles of easy money. Of course the other result is that thousands of other people end up in prison, but hey, got a break a few of your eggs to make an omelette for me. What's infuriating and ironic is that a lot of the growers I've interacted with want to keep it illegal because its an outsider lifestyle and they can pretend like they're not a part of capitalism. Seriously. This is the problem with government in general. Once some indivdual, or industry, or group get's a Government protected "in" they immediately regressive to hyper-conservative, republican, "gently caress you got mine." Give them an inch and they will take a mile from everyone else. I don't really know how to discourage this behavior but it causes a lot of problems, War on (some) Drugs besides.
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Jun 8, 2013 21:22
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Powercrazy posted:This is the problem with government in general. Once some indivdual, or industry, or group get's a Government protected "in" they immediately regressive to hyper-conservative, republican, "gently caress you got mine." Give them an inch and they will take a mile from everyone else. That's how capitalism works, it's the whole basis for the concept of private property - exclusionary, protected wealth. The only way to discourage it is to dismantle capitalism.
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Jun 8, 2013 22:40
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If we are going to fight this battle with the weapons of capitalism it would take a legal weed company, likely servicing the entire states of colorado and washington, to start using that money for legislative reform in other states in order to open up more markets, and eventually a washington lobbyist group to get congress to deschedule the whole shebang in order to 'bring jobs into their districts'.
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Jun 8, 2013 23:08
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And ad-targeting school children at 4pm on MTV with pink Justin Beiber cannabis
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Jun 9, 2013 00:27
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800peepee51doodoo posted:That's how capitalism works, it's the whole basis for the concept of private property - exclusionary, protected wealth. The only way to discourage it is to dismantle capitalism. Even in a perfect communist state, the same mentality will apply to individual civil servants. Say the person in charge of food-product distribution would hold a significant amount of sway on who got what food. So if he and his buddies always got the vodka, he would fight tooth and nail to prevent anyone else from getting that vodka. Having a monopoly or large enough influence will breed that undesirable behavior. How do you discourage it? Or to put it simply, how to you deal with the human nature of people being selfish?
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Jun 9, 2013 01:06
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Warchicken posted:My favorite thing about being a "lifestyle stoner" is being consistently more successful than everyone who refers to me in such a way. My favorite thing about legalization will be flaunting this fact even more than I already do. Yeah, you just come off as really insecure, honestly. You sound like some redditor defending their ASD. I love smoking weed, I used to do it every day (before and after work) until I got a job that required drug testing, and even I know that there's a big difference between people who enjoy weed and the smelly rear end folks who show up in Denver around 4/20. Turns out you can really love something and yet not let it define who you are.
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Jun 9, 2013 01:57
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800peepee51doodoo posted:It's not really, not from their perspective. They're in a protected market that is too illegal for there to be too much competition but not illegal enough to really have to fear consequences. The result is huge piles of easy money. Of course the other result is that thousands of other people end up in prison, but hey, got a break a few of your eggs to make an omelette for me. What's infuriating and ironic is that a lot of the growers I've interacted with want to keep it illegal because its an outsider lifestyle and they can pretend like they're not a part of capitalism. Seriously. I may have my facts here wrong, but at least in Maine my understanding is the Medical Marijuana folks are operating as non-profits. They're not supposed to be making big money, on purpose. And in states like Mass, they in fact have to pay quite a bit to the state to get certified. So their opposition to full legalization still strikes me as odd, because one could assume they'd have a leg up in a full legalization market, since they already have an official infrastructure in place.
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Jun 9, 2013 03:05
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redshirt posted:I may have my facts here wrong, but at least in Maine my understanding is the Medical Marijuana folks are operating as non-profits. They're not supposed to be making big money, on purpose. And in states like Mass, they in fact have to pay quite a bit to the state to get certified. "Medical marijuana" is a front for growing and selling dope to whoever wants it with a quasi legal justification. When "Medical Growers" associations are speaking out against legalization, they are speaking on behalf of all of the illegal growers that are using medpot as a cover, which is pretty much all of them. You know those guys that always come screaming out of the woodwork whenever a state wants to pass a medical mj law yelling about medpot being a trojan horse filled with hippie dope growers? They're right. Every time. Even if Maine's dispensaries are supposed to be non-profit, you can make a rock solid bet that they are raking in money on the side. Medical mj laws are the perfect mix of legal and illegal - high markups on product because of the "risk" yet almost no actual risk.
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Jun 9, 2013 03:50
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800peepee51doodoo posted:"Medical marijuana" is a front for growing and selling dope to whoever wants it with a quasi legal justification. When "Medical Growers" associations are speaking out against legalization, they are speaking on behalf of all of the illegal growers that are using medpot as a cover, which is pretty much all of them. You know those guys that always come screaming out of the woodwork whenever a state wants to pass a medical mj law yelling about medpot being a trojan horse filled with hippie dope growers? They're right. Every time. Even if Maine's dispensaries are supposed to be non-profit, you can make a rock solid bet that they are raking in money on the side. Medical mj laws are the perfect mix of legal and illegal - high markups on product because of the "risk" yet almost no actual risk. Yes! finally someone steps forward with the balls to debunk these hucksters by sharing unsubstantiated opinions about a large class of people they have never met.
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Jun 9, 2013 04:12
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It's unfortunately true in a lot of cases, though. A great example of this is in northern California, where cannabis quite literally fuels the economy single handedly. It's not uncommon to see ratty looking white dudes that reek of weed paying for expensive new electronics at the Best Buy in Eureka with stacks of hundreds - this is only possible when cannabis is illegal. Medocino and Humboldt Counties were largely against legal weed since the high price of illegal contraband is the only thing that keeps them from being like the rest of rural California.
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Jun 9, 2013 04:33
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Real hurthling! posted:Yes! finally someone steps forward with the balls to debunk these hucksters by sharing unsubstantiated opinions about a large class of people they have never met. Yes I'm sure that these are some truly saintly people who grow non-profit pot solely for cancer patients and who are also inexplicably opposed to full legalization because
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Jun 9, 2013 04:36
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800peepee51doodoo posted:Yes I'm sure that these are some truly saintly people who grow non-profit pot solely for cancer patients and who are also inexplicably opposed to full legalization because I'll be sure of it as soon as you can prove it with more than your admittedly enthralling sophistry
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Jun 9, 2013 04:40
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Real hurthling! posted:I'll be sure of it as soon as you can prove it with more than your admittedly enthralling sophistry http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/27/washington-marijuana-legalization_n_2198668.html So yeah, medical marijuana collectives were one of the main forces against legalization in Washington state. Some of it was DUI related, a few made arguments like it wouldn't actually be legal enough somehow, some said taxes would make the price go up even though supply would be increasing dramatically. Of course no one came out and said that they want to keep the price jacked up and keep distribution limited to a handful of people in a group they were a part of, but come on. You don't think there's any profit motive involved with a lot of these people, at least in some part? It's all a coincidence that they pull a 180 on widespread legalization once they get to a place where they can sell legally and no one else can? In Southern California I could walk into a couple dozen clinics in the area and get a prescription no problem. I'm in decent shape, in my mid 20's and my last physical came back completely clean, but is there any chance at all that they would turn me down? I'm all for the use of marijuana to help out medically, but there's no disputing that the whole thing has turned into a cover for tacit legalization. I mean I guess I can't speak for any other state, but if you try to claim it isn't in California you're just being disingenuous. cafel fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Jun 9, 2013 |
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Jun 9, 2013 04:51
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Radbot posted:It's unfortunately true in a lot of cases, though. A great example of this is in northern California, where cannabis quite literally fuels the economy single handedly. It's not uncommon to see ratty looking white dudes that reek of weed paying for expensive new electronics at the Best Buy in Eureka with stacks of hundreds - this is only possible when cannabis is illegal. Medocino and Humboldt Counties were largely against legal weed since the high price of illegal contraband is the only thing that keeps them from being like the rest of rural California. I lived in Arcata for a couple years and this is the truth. Midterm election + growers not wanting to vote themselves out of a paycheck = legal MJ didn't pass in a state with a town named Weed.
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Jun 9, 2013 04:52
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cafel posted:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/27/washington-marijuana-legalization_n_2198668.html I think it's different in places where only terminal illnesses qualify for MMJ and the market is smaller/more compassion driven. Places like CA where medical is basically a front for licensed legalized weed is where you have this kind of stuff going on.
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Jun 9, 2013 05:46
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Why do people complain about medical weed being a 'front' for legal weed? Do they also complain about the paper bag being a front for public intoxication? Christ, anything that keeps people out of jail is an improvement.
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Jun 9, 2013 09:58
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the black husserl posted:Why do people complain about medical weed being a 'front' for legal weed? Do they also complain about the paper bag being a front for public intoxication? Christ, anything that keeps people out of jail is an improvement. Pleasure is bad.
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Jun 9, 2013 10:15
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the black husserl posted:Why do people complain about medical weed being a 'front' for legal weed? Do they also complain about the paper bag being a front for public intoxication? Christ, anything that keeps people out of jail is an improvement. People are complaining about medical weed campaigning to keep weed illegal.
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Jun 9, 2013 10:20
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Miltank posted:People are complaining about medical weed campaigning to keep weed illegal. Yeah, if people can get legal medical marijuana as a stopgap to legalization I'm all for it. It's when the people raking in the cash for all these people and then using it to actively and widely campaign to stop any attempt full legalization that I have a problem with it.
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Jun 9, 2013 16:15
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the black husserl posted:Why do people complain about medical weed being a 'front' for legal weed? Do they also complain about the paper bag being a front for public intoxication? Christ, anything that keeps people out of jail is an improvement. Barrier's, especially political ones, to legalization are bad. If paperbag distributors were campaigning against repealing prohibition, I'd complain about them too.
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Jun 9, 2013 19:20
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I understand the point of established medical marijuana groups and businesses opposing legalization. That said, I still believe legal medical marijuana is a stepping stone for broader legalization. I guess we'll see over the next decade. If I were to bet, though, I'd predict none of the first 8-10 states that follow CO and WA will go directly from "completely illegal" to having legal recreational sale of marijuana.
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Jun 9, 2013 22:29
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the black husserl posted:Why do people complain about medical weed being a 'front' for legal weed? Do they also complain about the paper bag being a front for public intoxication? Christ, anything that keeps people out of jail is an improvement. What about a system that keeps people out of jail only when they can pay a couple hundred bucks for their legal weed card, but continues to poo poo on the poor? Because that's what the "medical = effectively legalized" system does. And then it convinces people that they don't need to campaign for real actual legalization that stops things like "I established probable cause when my experienced cop nose detected the odor of marijuana," because hey, they have legal weed. Legalizing medical marijuana is not a bad thing. There are significant problems with the systems that crop up around the way medical legalization has been handled in places like California (and Washington until recently), though, and it's perfectly reasonable to criticize them. Space Gopher fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Jun 9, 2013 |
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Jun 9, 2013 22:54
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Makarov_ posted:I understand the point of established medical marijuana groups and businesses opposing legalization. Money is a hell of a thing. I think with CO and WA being pioneers, they're going to cash in on a lot of heightened tourism due to being legal. Once other medical states see this, they'll probably want to rake in some of that sweet sweet tourism money too.
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Jun 9, 2013 23:47
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Makarov_ posted:That said, I still believe legal medical marijuana is a stepping stone for broader legalization. Well, yeah. That was definitely the intent since day one when states were (and still are) passing medical mj laws. Its another one of those things all those angry conservatives said that was absolutely correct but no one actually gave a poo poo about. The funny thing is now that medical mj is in place in a number of states and some growers have found themselves a pretty sweet gig, they don't want it to go any farther because of the possibility of shutting off the easy, tax-free money spigot. I really doubt the growers will be able to stop legalization. Too many people with real money are chomping at the bit to get involved and as was pointed out upthread full legalization has majority support now. If anyone is going to stop legalization at this point it will be the feds and they don't really seem all that interested at the moment. I think you're right in saying that it will probably go medpot -> legalization at least until it snowballs or *crosses fingers* gets descheduled at the federal level.
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Jun 10, 2013 00:04
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