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Tortuga posted:I didn't say they were representative of anything, I was trying to figure out if and where you see between self defense and those kind of actions God forbid that you should take fifteen minutes of googling in order to familiarize yourself with the terms used in the conversation. But to summarize, bashing the fash means uncompromising resistance. You oppose the fash whenever you can, and you damage the fascist movement whenever you can. How this is accomplished is a tactical question. Sometimes this means that violence must be employed in self-defense, because, since you're obviously clueless, fascism in an inherently violent ideology in a few unique ways. See, the problem here is that you and other handwringing liberals are completely goddamn clueless about what the fash actually are, and how fascist violence is fundamentally different from regular old violence. The fash generally isn't susceptible to your so-called reasonable arguments, because their ideology doesn't care about arguments, and their ideology literally calls for violence for its own sake. The only way to defeat them is to resist, because that punctures the myth of invincibility and eventual victory that fascism requires in order to work. Tortuga posted:This is why posters ask you whether you actually practice what you preach and suspect you're just full of hot air. Actually in my experience they ask that because they're a bunch of clueless liberal smuglords who can't even imagine taking some time off their comfortable first-world lives to actually fight for the sake of other people. Either that or they're a bunch if disingenous liberal smuglords looking to score cheap points on the internet. Like, say, what you are doing here. Spacedad posted:It isn't just arrests. It's investigation. If say, informants and infiltrators within the nazis had uncovered and exposed that the nazis themselves had set fire to the reichstag - stuff like that would have destroyed the public image of the nazis, as Hitler himself back then was horribly paranoid about people finding out what they were really up to. When that particular detail came out during the nuremberg trials, it was particularly devastating to the core of the German people, who realized they had been taken for fools on that major event the whole time. The entire adventure of national socialism was a fraud propelled into power from a fiction that, if uncovered, would have set history on a very different course. This is really loving cute. It's completely hilarious how facile your explanationabout how the nazis seized power. As if a millions-strong political mass movement would just had up and unravelled because of some informantsand infiltrators. As if, as I alluded to, the goddamn Beer Hall Putsch and Mein Kampf didn't lay out exactly what the nazis were and what they wanted to do. As if anybody would even had time to react after the Reichstag fire and as if the so-called liberal press didn't cheerlead Hitler all the way into dictatorship. You have this absurd delusion that the truth just has to come out and everybody will do the right thing. This is not how the world works. Also I note that you still haven't provided any arguments as for how exactly antifa activity makes the problem worse. I suppose you choose to ignore this question because it completely destroys your argument, but I just want to point out that you're not fooling anyone.
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Jun 10, 2013 16:28
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Er Pernacchia posted:You must be joking, these are Internet warriors that's why they speak like this. If they were "for real" they would a-understand where all the violence leads to (more violence) because the would have experienced what a punch in the mouth feels like and b-they would not broadcast here but "just do it" as proper action people do. Yes lets leave the policing of fascists to the police it's not like they are actively supporting the Golden Dawn in Greece or anything or that that's an occurrence that's happened repeatedly throughout history.
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Jun 10, 2013 16:55
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Er Pernacchia posted:You must be joking, these are Internet warriors that's why they speak like this. If they were "for real" they would a-understand where all the violence leads to (more violence) because the would have experienced what a punch in the mouth feels like and b-they would not broadcast here but "just do it" as proper action people do. As someone old enough to have been involved with the ANL back in the day let me just say gently caress right off with your liberal whining.
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Jun 10, 2013 16:59
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This thread was good once.
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Jun 10, 2013 17:07
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So until the government can be forced to take action against fascist or hate groups like the KKK (that's assuming it's a foregone conclusion), what happens to all the ethnic minorities and left wingers and other fascist targets in the mean time? Are they supposed to wait patiently? I saw a video of some antifa in Greece who went and destroyed some Golden Dawn offices at night while they were unoccupied. I'd say that's classed as self defense as they were disrupting the ability of the fascists to organise. To the people decrying antifa tactics, would that be considered 'too far'?
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Jun 10, 2013 17:11
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Cerebral Bore posted:God forbid that you should take fifteen minutes of googling in order to familiarize yourself with the terms used in the conversation....you're obviously clueless...you and other handwringing liberals are completely goddamn clueless...your so-called reasonable arguments...disingenous liberal smuglords That's a lot of insults to avoid answering a simple question, it's really hard to take you seriously. Cerebral Bore posted:But to summarize, bashing the fash means uncompromising resistance. You oppose the fash whenever you can, and you damage the fascist movement whenever you can. How this is accomplished is a tactical question. Sometimes this means that violence must be employed in self-defense. This reads more like some kind of mission statement, which while sounding very grand doesn't describe anything you're doing or achieving by actually putting this theory into practice. It's just vague words. Can you provide some contemporary examples violent resistance being a better tool against the EDL than just letting them shoot themselves in the foot?
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Jun 10, 2013 17:12
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Tortuga posted:This reads more like some kind of mission statement, which while sounding very grand doesn't describe anything you're doing or achieving by actually putting this theory into practice. It's just vague words. Can you provide some contemporary examples violent resistance being a better tool against the EDL than just letting them shoot themselves in the foot? What kind of evidence are you looking for? Some kind of graph showing EDL dissauded by violent action versus doing nothing? Seriously, "Let the EDL shoot themselves in the foot! Violent action is bad!" is a really persuasive, really reasonable sounding way of saying "Let's do absolutely nothing!" Tortuga posted:That's a lot of insults to avoid answering a simple question, it's really hard to take you seriously. Tone argument takes its pride of place on the tiresome liberal bullshit bingo card! some plague rats fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jun 10, 2013 |
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Jun 10, 2013 17:26
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Fascism has always been put down in the UK through direct action, Whether that be the 1940s or the 1970/80s, violence against fascists has always won the day and I see no reason why that shouldnt be the answer now.
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Jun 10, 2013 17:40
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Spacedad posted:No one said it would be easy - institutional problems needs institutional change. This can be slow, tedious, and obscenely difficult - because of how horribly the problems have calcified over the years. But such efforts are 100% necessary, otherwise the problems will never get solved and only get far worse. If you aren't chipping away at them, you're likely adding to them. It's all fun and games till you need a world war to bash the fash. You remember that? Worlds biggest street fight that took 5 years and millions dead. Settled with violence.
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Jun 10, 2013 17:42
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"Bashing the fash" came about because everything else wasnt deemed to be working, and especially after Nazi-ism quite a few people didnt like the sound of a repeat performance. People didnt just decide to try to beat up some fairly hard looking skinheads for fun. Its because the intimidation they experienced meant it wasnt much of an option not to. Maybe watch this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlqnOeX4GeM
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Jun 10, 2013 17:54
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Crane Fist posted:What kind of evidence are you looking for? Some kind of graph showing EDL dissauded by violent action versus doing nothing? Anything that helps guage the necessity of the level of violent action? All I originally wanted to know was where they drew the line between self defence and unacceptable violence in the current situation. I do think response should be proportional to the situation, and I doubt you disagree with that, so the danger lies in overestimating the situation, reacting riduculously like those guys who tried to bomb the march and making yourself look like the aggressor playing further into their hands. Lady Gaza posted:I saw a video of some antifa in Greece who went and destroyed some Golden Dawn offices at night while they were unoccupied. I'd say that's classed as self defense as they were disrupting the ability of the fascists to organise. To the people decrying antifa tactics, would that be considered 'too far'? I'd say that's fair enough at this point, but get it wrong and blow up a bunch of people along with the offices just once and it'll do a lot more harm than good. My point is that any response has to be measured to the situation, and if you can't define and justify what is acceptable and what's not within your own moral framework how are you going to convince anyone else that it was a just thing to do? Crane Fist posted:Tone argument takes its pride of place on the tiresome liberal bullshit bingo card! Case in point, did he really have to make it that easy for me to dismiss his argument?
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Jun 10, 2013 18:21
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Tortuga posted:That's a lot of insults to avoid answering a simple question, it's really hard to take you seriously. That's few words to avoid answering my point, it's really hard to take you seriously. Tortuga posted:This reads more like some kind of mission statement, which while sounding very grand doesn't describe anything you're doing or achieving by actually putting this theory into practice. It's just vague words. Can you provide some contemporary examples violent resistance being a better tool against the EDL than just letting them shoot themselves in the foot? Why should I do your research for you? It's pretty obvious that you don't care anyway. Tortuga posted:Case in point, did he really have to make it that easy for me to dismiss his argument? Ahaha, yeah, totally mea culpa. Are you sure you aren't some searchlight dude conducting an elaborate parody of the typical liberal? Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Jun 10, 2013 |
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Jun 10, 2013 18:42
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Spacedad posted:Sorry, but making straw men of the point I'm trying to make really only goes to show how much you've come to resemble the thing you're fighting against. You even have the stubbornness and frothing at the mouth hatred of perceived enemies down to a T. Making strawman arguments on the Internet and being stubborn, those well-known tenets of Fascism.
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Jun 10, 2013 18:45
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Just as a minor question, have you ever tried to actually fight fire with fire? Unless your using it to get rid of anything that can burn in front of an already going fire it is kind of pointless and/or rubbish. Its why the whole "beat up fascists" thing is good only if you are very sure that what you are doing is going to diminish a cause, not increase it. The EDL I would argue is a great example, they are useless, pathetic and led by people who have no political knowledge nor ways of making themselves look stupid and/or pathetic. They have gained a temporary boost and nothing more, and will (as long as maintain their current leadership) fade back into inner party squabbling within the next couple of years or months. Bashing them when on Marches is not necessarily a bad action, but it is an inefficient one if you wish to gain public approval/diminish support especially if you are not in control of any news story making them out to be the weaker party. In the case of Golden Dawn, seriously what is it with Facists and loving stupid organisation names, it would probably be best to conduct both a campaign to show any support they give is poisoned or to beat the ever loving crap out of anyone of them as often as possible. Or the old fashioned approach which tends to work very well in organisations founded on violence, organise a leadership dispute and watch the fireworks.
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Jun 10, 2013 18:56
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Violence doesn't solve anything. Hand wringing liberalism and hoping it'll all just go away, that's the firebrand that'll stop the rise of fascism.
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Jun 10, 2013 19:04
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Gonzo McFee posted:Violence doesn't solve anything. Hand wringing liberalism and hoping it'll all just go away, that's the firebrand that'll stop the rise of fascism. Targeted violence helps, but there is no shame in admitting that you do not know if you are more correct than the next man to kick the poo poo out of someone and leave them in a gutter. It might be a sign of a lack of conviction, but perhaps that has stopped more killings than the reverse.
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Jun 10, 2013 19:15
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Josef bugman posted:Targeted violence helps, but there is no shame in admitting that you do not know if you are more correct than the next man to kick the poo poo out of someone and leave them in a gutter. It might be a sign of a lack of conviction, but perhaps that has stopped more killings than the reverse. This isn't aimed specifically at you, but at all of those saying that kind words and lovely thoughts will make fascism go away. I've been to half a dozen or so counter-protests. It's a rubbish number, I know, especially compared to some in this thread. I'll also admit I went knowing there was a pretty good chance that the Police would keep the BNP or EDL away from me, and really not knowing what would happen if they didn't - I'm a pudgy bloke rapidly approaching middle age and middle class and I've not been in a fight in 15 years. I'd probably get the poo poo kicked out of me if anything serious happened. However I still went and will still go, even if that does put me on the side of "bashing the fash" that so appalls you and the others because, even with all the above, I believe it is not only right but an absolute responsibility of all civilised people to oppose fascism. You and the others keep wanting to couch this in terms of a political dialogue, but even if it were an absolute, non-negotiable fact that asking nicely, ignoring the problem and hoping it goes away, or endless hand-wringing about the nature of violence in political movements did cause fascism to melt away like mist none of that would alleviate the sheer terror felt by innocent people at seeing a hostile force - an assemblage of savages who want them dead for the colour of their skin, their religious or political views, or just looking at them funny - marching past their houses. I've never felt that fear, something I'm eternally thankful to the vagaries of chance and history for, and I don't want anyone else ever to feel that fear either. Why do you believe that they should feel that absolute terror of the BUF at Cable Street, the NF marching down Coldharbour Lane, the BNP or the EDL down Brick Lane? Any person of conscience would stand against these scum to stop that and I don't understand why you wouldn't.
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Jun 10, 2013 19:36
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Spacedad posted:You try living in the US where the phrase 'liberal' means something very different, and even if you know better, you're still bombarded with it so much that you reflexively think of it that incorrect way. Yo, just a heads up from another American. We totally use 'liberal' that way and have for a while. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw And also the use of the term neoliberal isn't unknown or uncommon in a lot of circles. It's true that 'liberal' means something slightly different in it's wider usage, but it's still pretty common. I mean it's understandable you hadn't heard it used that way, but you shouldn't have the mindset that it's a completely foreign thing that makes American's heads explode. (Protip: In the end the mainstream usage of liberal in America probably isn't that far off from the foreign usage anyway. It's just that there's no visible political left wing to point it out.) Though I'm not sure if I'm in total agreement with the rest of the thread either. Violent confrontation with fascist is all well and good, but the problem can still be approached from other directions simultaneously. In the US one of the deathblows to the KKK as a wider political movement involved a popular children's Superman radio show casting them as the villains for a short arc. It helped turn them into a laughing stock and further marginalized them on the national stage. Of course this kind of thing seems less necessary with the EDL because they do such a good job of turning themselves into joke through social media.
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Jun 10, 2013 19:37
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Gonzo McFee posted:Violence doesn't solve anything. Hand wringing liberalism and hoping it'll all just go away, that's the firebrand that'll stop the rise of fascism. At what point do you think that kicking the poo poo out of someone you disagree with is not the solution to your problems?
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Jun 10, 2013 19:39
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Cerebral Bore posted:This is really loving cute. It's completely hilarious how facile your explanationabout how the nazis seized power. As if a millions-strong political mass movement would just had up and unravelled because of some informantsand infiltrators. As if, as I alluded to, the goddamn Beer Hall Putsch and Mein Kampf didn't lay out exactly what the nazis were and what they wanted to do. As if anybody would even had time to react after the Reichstag fire and as if the so-called liberal press didn't cheerlead Hitler all the way into dictatorship. Oh my mistake, the reds clashing in the streets with the nazis on a daily basis was clearly the solution and a damning piece of evidence that shows the reich staged a fake terrorist incident to sieze power wouldn't have meant anything. quote:You have this absurd delusion that the truth just has to come out and everybody will do the right thing. This is not how the world works. Actually, it is how the world works. Exposing the criminal activities of right wing extremists is a very powerful tool in turning public views against them. It's essentially the strongest weapon in the fight against fascism, since it cuts right to the quick in demonstrating what these extremist groups are really about - for all their blathering about 'traditional values' and patriotism etc. quote:Also I note that you still haven't provided any arguments as for how exactly antifa activity makes the problem worse. I suppose you choose to ignore this question because it completely destroys your argument, but I just want to point out that you're not fooling anyone. Two words. Political violence. Always a bad idea. Always the weapon of the enemy. Bear in mind this only applies to militants. There's plenty of anti-fascist types who aren't into that poo poo. cafel posted:
Never underestimate the power of satire. There's a reason why authoritarian shitheads are totally humorless - because humor deprives them of their fake authority. Spacedad fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jun 10, 2013 |
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Jun 10, 2013 19:49
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Spacedad posted:Two words. Political violence. Always a bad idea. Always the weapon of the enemy. Always? Really? So, say, the French Resistance in WWII were wrong to fight back? Should they have got involved politically, beat the Nazi occupation with reasoned debate?
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Jun 10, 2013 20:00
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lfield posted:Always? Really? The French Resistance? Really? Do you really want me to spell out how that comparison isn't even closely related to the kind of violence I'm criticizing here? Because you should be able to figure out why if you think about it very carefully. Spacedad fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Jun 10, 2013 |
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Jun 10, 2013 20:03
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Spacedad posted:Oh my mistake, the reds clashing in the streets with the nazis on a daily basis was clearly the solution and a damning piece of evidence that shows the reich staged a fake terrorist incident to sieze power wouldn't have meant anything. If the rest of polite society had taken a page from the reds playbook and bashed the fash we might have avoided another world war. Instead they first gave Hitler the keys to the kingdom, and later the rest of the liberal world sat around doing jack poo poo at best and helping him at worst until it was too late. Spacedad posted:Actually, it is how the world works. Exposing the criminal activities of right wing extremists is a very powerful tool in turning public views against them. It's essentially the strongest weapons in the fight against fascism, since it cuts right to the quick in demonstrating what these extremist groups are really about - for all their blathering about 'traditional values' and patriotism etc. That's well and good when the fash are small and weak, but you're literally saying that some dude making accusations would sway a mature fascist mass movement, which is utterly laughable. All Hitler has to do is to denounce whoever leaked the info as a liar and traitor, and there you have it. This is absurdly naive. It also shows how tenuous a grasp of history you have. Again, I've already mentioned the Beer Hall Putsch which kinda was worse than burning down a building. And how did that affect the fascist movement? Spacedad posted:Two words. Political violence. Always a bad idea. Always the weapon of the enemy. You're quite literally whining about people daring to resist the adherents an ideology that is founded on political violence. Also I'm sure that all the people who don't pass the paper bag test and get their faces stomped in by the fash still feel really good abut you claiming the Liberal Moral High Ground here.
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Jun 10, 2013 20:07
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Cerebral Bore posted:
I've repeatedly stated that self defense (and also community defense) is always justified. You seem to really want to paint me as rejecting all kinds of violence. I'm being very specific about the stripe of violence I'm talking about. I can see this is going to go in circles the way that discussions with creationists do.
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Jun 10, 2013 20:11
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Spacedad posted:The French Resistance? Really? Do you really want me to spell out how that comparison isn't even closely related to the kind of violence I'm criticizing here? Because you should be able to figure out why if you think about it very carefully. The kind of violence you were criticizing was all political violence. War is political violence. Genocide is political violence. Or are you using terms you don't understand? "All political violence is always wrong, except for the types I say is okay!"
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Jun 10, 2013 20:13
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Spacedad posted:I've repeatedly stated that self defense (and also community defense) is always justified. You seem to really want to paint me as rejecting all kinds of violence. I'm being very specific about the stripe of violence I'm talking about. You're not being specific at all. You're constantly making GBS threads on movements that were obviously practising self-defense, yet you claim that you don't have problems with that. You're also saying that we should just leave it to the police and that antifa resistance is counterproductive, yet you refuse to make antual arguments as for why this is the case. So be specific, what exact forms of violence are you condemning, and when has anybody ITT or in the wider antifa movement advocated said forms of violence? And how is antifa resistance making the fash stronger?
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Jun 10, 2013 20:19
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lfield posted:The kind of violence you were criticizing was all political violence. War is political violence. Genocide is political violence. Or are you using terms you don't understand? Being pedantic and presuming I meant political violence in the broadest possible definition isn't exactly helping. Violence as an insurgency against an occupying force is not the kind of political violence I'm criticizing here.
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Jun 10, 2013 20:23
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You can't  reason  with  hatred  and  calls  for  genocide  it  doesn't  loving  work  direct  action  is  a  valid  tactic  you  loving  liberals
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Jun 10, 2013 20:24
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Yes, you can't reason with them. Which is why when you try 'reasoning' with tactics such as squadism to go beating them up in public, they're going to take photos of their injuries, paint themselves as martyrs, and use you as a tool for their propaganda. As the BNP has repeatedly done when they've been victims of squadism incidents.
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Jun 10, 2013 20:30
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Byolante posted:At what point do you think that kicking the poo poo out of someone you disagree with is not the solution to your problems? Fascism isn't just disagreeing with someone. Fascism is institutionalised racism and violence against minorities.
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Jun 10, 2013 20:34
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Spacedad posted:Yes, you can't reason with them. Which is why when you try 'reasoning' with tactics such as squadism to go beating them up in public, they're going to take photos of their injuries, paint themselves as martyrs, and use you as a tool for their propaganda. As the BNP has repeatedly done when they've been victims of squadism incidents. Which is why the BNP are a legitimate political threat unlike Farage and co. who, through the use of allowing his party a public debate platform, have become discredited clowns and an electoral insignficance.
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Jun 10, 2013 20:35
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Spacedad posted:Yes, you can't reason with them. Which is why when you try 'reasoning' with tactics such as squadism to go beating them up in public, they're going to take photos of their injuries, paint themselves as martyrs, and use you as a tool for their propaganda. As the BNP has repeatedly done when they've been victims of squadism incidents. Oh yes, the BNP. So, so successful nowerdays, aren't they? Lets ignore the fact that every time the fash has risen in the UK, direct action in the streets to stop them from seig heiling up and down the place has been the only thing to actually stop them. I guess you can provide reams of evidence supporting your theory that poor Freddy Fascists bruises have provoked national outcry and mourning? Yeah. Thought so.
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Jun 10, 2013 20:35
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what is 'squadism', precious?
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Jun 10, 2013 20:41
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lfield posted:"All political violence is always wrong, except for the types I say is okay!" Lines have to be drawn somewhere, even if it is for reason of expedience rather than morals, at what point do you not kill a man for spilling your pint or acting like a creep? Its the reason we have juries to determine guilt by popular vote. And in response to the  at my second post? I never said I had any moral issue with other people doing it, go right ahead its your own choice and more power to you, what I am arguing is it's necessary "effectiveness" in terms of what it can accomplish if you do not have a decent hold of media outlets, fortunately the EDL is poo poo at it, as is the BNP so we don't get "poor fascist getting beaten up" except on fascist websites, but if you were to say do the same at a UK rally, arguably worse than the sad fuckers who make up an EDL march? That and, if you will pardon me, I do not want to beat up or get beaten up by someone. I am a coward for the latter I know, but I'd just sooner not hit some poor stupid bastard in the face, no matter what he or she believes.That will probably change if things get worse than they currently are and if I grow a loving spine. But as is I do not trust myself enough to know what is the right way of acting. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Jun 10, 2013 |
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Jun 10, 2013 20:42
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DesperateDan posted:Oh yes, the BNP. So, so successful nowerdays, aren't they? Except the opposite happened back in 2009-ish when the BNP was on the rise - it was the BNP making fools out of themselves on the public stage that eventually did them in, while the 'direct action' fuckwits doing poo poo like attacking BNP meetings with hammers only helped give them an air of persecuted legitimacy during their rise.
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Jun 10, 2013 20:46
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Tias posted:what is 'squadism', precious? The term, often used pejoratively by liberal anti-fascists eschewing physical violence.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squadism I love American liberals telling us how to combat the far right in the UK.
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Jun 10, 2013 20:46
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Tias posted:what is 'squadism', precious? Taking direct action against fascism. It's meant to make it sound like a bad thing.
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Jun 10, 2013 20:47
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Spacedad posted:Except the opposite happened back in 2009-ish when the BNP was on the rise - it was the BNP making fools out of themselves on the public stage that eventually did them in, while the 'direct action' fuckwits doing poo poo like attacking BNP meetings with hammers only helped give them an air of persecuted legitimacy during their rise. So that's a no, you can't?
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Jun 10, 2013 20:48
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It seems to only be used against trot/leninist AFA groups who meet and make decisions in absolute secret, removing democratic franchise from the antifascists they recruit to actions. I can't say I approve, but if it's just dogwhistle for "pee pee poo poo antifascism dumb", then gently caress it.
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Jun 10, 2013 20:48
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You have to fight the far right with logic and reason guys.
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Jun 10, 2013 20:52
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