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Mr Cuddles posted:You have to fight the far right with logic and reason guys. Reaper is a good, free alternative.
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Jun 11, 2013 10:32
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Balnakio posted:That your whining about people not tolerating other people's intolerance? Corrode posted:No, I'm not: I think we're losing track of what's being criticized here - which is the use of assault and other criminal action. Hate speech laws are another matter. Those should be handled by the authorities anyway, not a mob of young thugs.
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Jun 11, 2013 10:38
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Spacedad posted:^^^ Those are the same thing? I never said you defended their ideology.
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Jun 11, 2013 10:40
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Ah yes, the British police force and establishment, well known for defending minority rights. If you want a friend of the family for a neighbour, vote Liberal or Labour.
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Jun 11, 2013 10:41
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CharlestheHammer posted:Those are the same thing? I never said you defended their ideology. Not at all. Especially in the case of if those methods play into the hands of fascists - as is the case with the BNP using assault by the UAF as a propaganda opportunity. I believe the methods are ineffectual and counter-productive and have tried to explain why - I also believe they do an end-run around major ethical implications. None of this defends fascism - rather I'm suggesting that there are much more effective ways to fight it. If people disagree with me, let's keep discussing and learning more then.
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Jun 11, 2013 10:44
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Spacedad posted:
I asked you if you realised that the rights we have to day were won by violence, and you said that none of what I posted reflected your views. So I assumed you agreed with me, but I wasn't sure, and asked for clarification. Because you posted that violence from the edl and anti fascists were as bad as each other I thought you were just anti political violence. Which is a very immature view of the world which takes no account of history, motives or effects. Maybe I was wrong but I thought you lived in a fantasy land where illegal political violence was always wrong and bad.
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Jun 11, 2013 10:44
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My favourite post of the thread was someone calling UAF "violent"  In other news, the BBC accommodates fascists. Huffington Post posted:EDL Leader Tommy Robinson Given 'Easy' Interview On BBC's Today Programme 
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Jun 11, 2013 10:45
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General China posted:I asked you if you realised that the rights we have to day were won by violence, and you said that none of what I posted reflected your views. I'm not addressing anything you've stated in your posts, and here you are presuming I've given answers to them that I haven't. Please stop making strawman arguments.
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Jun 11, 2013 10:46
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Spacedad could you please stop whining about it being illegal? Being illegal is not the litmus test for whether something is immoral. EDIT: If you could stop whining about strawmen that'd be great too because people are responding to things you have actually said. It currently seems you're just trying to drown out valid criticism of your position by crying fallacy. mfcrocker fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 10:46
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Spacedad posted:I'm not addressing anything you've stated in your posts, and here you are presuming I've given answers to them that I haven't. Please stop making strawman arguments. So a direct question- Do you think illegal political violence is ever justified?
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Jun 11, 2013 10:54
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Allan Assiduity posted:My favourite post of the thread was someone calling UAF "violent" Only in regards to the recent incident which shows them actually assaulting people and clashing with police. quote:In other news, the BBC accommodates fascists. I don't see why you'd think I'd disagree with you on this - I'm only really objecting to the use of political violence. Hate speech and making 'accomodations for bigots' is another issue entirely. quote:Of course, since it's HuffPo, there's some comments I'm sure Spacedad will agree with here There does seem to be a pattern of people here who are quick anticipate that they believe they know what and how I think, so you tell me. Also - One of the reasons I've stuck around here by the way is that early on, people accused me of defending fascists. I'm a gay guy who's been the victim of homophobic assault, so I find that particular strawman attack to be terribly vile and insulting - and I felt a much stronger need to stand up for my views then. In the future I'd suggest people refrain from accusing others with dissenting views regarding the use of violence of supporting fascists. It's a very difficult and inherently inflammatory issue, not to be taken lightly - writing people off so quickly is very counter-productive. General China posted:So a direct question- That's a very big and very loaded question, so I can't really give a good answer. If you get more specific I might be able to. Thanks for attempting to ask me what I actually think instead of presuming to know what I think though. I sincerely appreciate the effort.
Spacedad fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 10:55
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mfcrocker posted:Spacedad could you please stop whining about it being illegal? Being illegal is not the litmus test for whether something is immoral. Illegality is important to consider not just for the moral/ethical implications, but how it affects the perception and public relations of the groups that fight against fascism, the time energy & resources involved with doing so, and various other reasons such as the lasting damage/trauma that is often caused by such illegal violent action. My view on illegality isn't that simple. I also take into account unjust laws and the need for citizens under criminal regimes to defend themselves - I do not believe that this kind of extreme measure is justifiable in Britain. Hence why the violent action is inherently extremist. quote:EDIT: If you could stop whining about strawmen that'd be great too because people are responding to things you have actually said. It currently seems you're just trying to drown out valid criticism of your position by crying fallacy. Some of the strawman attacks have a few bits that are actually responding to things I've said, but also make broad generalizations about me that simply aren't true in the same breath. For example, general china's statement here: "I'm afraid that you don't realise that fascism does not respond to polite argument, petitions, awareness raising workshops or the idea that violence only causes more violence." I DO realize that fascism is inflexible. Straight away the poster presumes to know what I think. The rest of the post is insulting generic ridicule about liberalism stereotypes that some of the people here seem keen to paint me with for some reason. It's bizarre to me since I'm not even from the UK so I don't fit the UK liberal hippie stereotype, and I don't get along well with loopy American liberals either. It's like being a tall man and being repeatedly called a midget. Spacedad fucked around with this message at 11:10 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 11:06
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Spacedad posted:Only in regards to the recent incident which shows them actually assaulting people and clashing with police. quote:I don't see why you'd think I'd disagree with you on this - I'm only really objecting to the use of political violence. Hate speech and making 'accomodations for bigots' is another issue entirely. There's a crossover between people who would advocate little opposition and people who would never support "no platform" policies. Obviously, that isn't what you're saying - but that's where the assumption stems from. zonar fucked around with this message at 11:12 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 11:07
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Spacedad posted:That's a very big and very loaded question, so I can't really give a good answer. If you get more specific I might be able to. Fair enough. But that is what the discussion has been about, strawmen and that other poo poo aside. Its about where you draw the line and what you will put up with. That is up to you I can be very specific and say I see nothing wrong with inflicting enough violence to stop fascists organising on the streets of the UK. After that its a question of degrees- how many immigrants houses have to be burnt out, how many fascists elected and how many pink triangles they have pinned on people.
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Jun 11, 2013 11:12
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The idea that open rational and public debate is the cure all for fascism, is idiotic. What the papers tout as the new 3rd party of the UK Ukip, have done nothing but grow in votes and public support with increased outings on TV and the papers, despite being pretty openly fascist. The big parties response to their rise has been to adopt more and more of Ukip's language and rhetoric.
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Jun 11, 2013 11:14
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Allan Assiduity posted:All evidence (that isn't from the BNP, who much like the EDL/UKIP, have cartoonishly bad views on the UAF) is to the contrary. As someone who has had the extremely frustrating displeasure of working with UAF, they are the most milquetoast opposition group you can imagine, often asking to be kettled by the police and co-operating with police commands even if it means harm coming to (peaceful) demonstrators (as happened at that demonstration, where both BNP and police actively harmed peaceful protesters). Thanks for pointing that out - I would also add though that the problem with violence is it can sometimes only take a minority of violent idiots to make a whole otherwise peaceful group look bad. quote:The reason for this is that they've often met liberals here who espouse the same viewpoints, and they're the reason for toothless opposition at an organisational level. As for what I thought you'd agree with, it was mostly the presenter's comments about what "more heat would have achieved". Well I'm glad you've explained this to me now - I also would surmise some of the people run out of the thread might have had more nuanced views but weren't given the chance to explain them. I've stuck around here with tenacity because the people calling me a 'fascist supporter' irked me into standing up, and it's given me the chance to strip away enough of the bullshit to start getting real about sharing insight and whatnot.
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Jun 11, 2013 11:15
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Bozza posted:Ah yes, the British police force and establishment, well known for defending minority rights. Not an official slogan. This, however, was an official poster:  Spacedad posted:That's a very big and very loaded question, so I can't really give a good answer. If you get more specific I might be able to. So, do you think illegal political violence is ever justified? It's not a difficult question. We'll give you time to wring your hands and haver.
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Jun 11, 2013 11:17
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Liberalism is a manifestation of opportunism and conflicts fundamentally with Marxism. It is negative and objectively has the effect of helping the enemy; that is why the enemy welcomes its preservation in our midst. Such being its nature, there should be no place for it in the ranks of the revolution.
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Jun 11, 2013 11:17
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General China posted:Fair enough. For the purposes of this discussion, I'll say this: I consider political violence in most cases to be bad. There are exceptions to this - I've even mentioned a couple historical examples in the thread. I can recall two of them; the south Africans resisting apartheid, and the Jewish resistance. It is difficult to really assess unless it's done by a carefully considered case by case basis though - there's no 'rule of thumb' where something this difficult and downright deadly serious is concerned. Violence is never an easy subject, nor should it be. The moment people consider it an easy subject is the moment it creates problems. Hypothetically someone could find a case where some violence used by anti fascist protesters is justifiable - I'd have to scrutinize it carefully, and it would generally involve much more defensive action than aggressive attack. Generally speaking though, no - the overwhelming amount of cases I've seen of 'direct action' type violence committed by anti-fascists are actions I regard as unethical, immoral, and criminal. Iohannes posted:
Anyone who thinks violence, much less political violence, is an easy question is very likely 'part of the problem.' Spacedad fucked around with this message at 11:32 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 11:21
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Iohannes posted:Not an official slogan. This, however, was an official poster: Stewart Lee lied to me 
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Jun 11, 2013 11:27
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Lady Gaza posted:Liberalism is a manifestation of opportunism and conflicts fundamentally with Marxism. It is negative and objectively has the effect of helping the enemy; that is why the enemy welcomes its preservation in our midst. Such being its nature, there should be no place for it in the ranks of the revolution. It's antidemocratic attitudes like this that make people conflate anti-fascists with fascists, sadly.
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Jun 11, 2013 11:29
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Bozza posted:Stewart Lee lied to me Comedic licence. His point stands: gently caress the Tories
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Jun 11, 2013 11:31
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Spacedad posted:It's antidemocratic attitudes like this that make people conflate anti-fascists with fascists, sadly. Liberalism is not synonymous with democracy.
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Jun 11, 2013 11:31
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Genuine question Spacedad, what history of fash street gangs like the BNP/EDL is there in the US? I know you said earlier that the FBI et al have been historically active behind the scenes, but has there ever been anything comparable with groups in Europe? Also, I had no idea Rory MacKinnon was a Goon. That's brilliant.
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Jun 11, 2013 11:32
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Barry Foster posted:Liberalism is not synonymous with democracy. The caricature of liberalism being mocked in that post is the side that gets routinely pilloried for letting groups of reprehensible views have their say. Ironically, paranoia about communism in the US left over from the red scare days shares identical attitudes about liberals. When free speech is seen as 'helping the enemy', it's about as antidemocratic as you can get. It's also funny and terribly telling how people who uphold free speech get routinely talked about in emasculated terms by people who really just want to silence their political enemies and beat them to tar. Spacedad fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 11:38
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Spacedad, you need to re-read your post history in this thread. Whenever we say defending against fascist violence is necessary you say "oh my, yes, of course, I agree", and then when we say that this defense involves violent or illegal acts, you turn around and complain that you're against it. Which is it? Flip flop like this much longer, and I don't really care to debate with you. ..And don't bring up the police. They have fascists in their ranks, who help surveil and harass political opponents. They're just another gang of the thugs you seem to be so afraid of.
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Jun 11, 2013 11:39
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Tias posted:Spacedad, you need to re-read your post history in this thread. Whenever we say defending against fascist violence is necessary you say "oh my, yes, of course, I agree", and then when we say that this defense involves violent or illegal acts, you turn around and complain that you're against it. You mean you really can't tell the difference between assault and self-defense? quote:..And don't bring up the police. They have fascists in their ranks, who help surveil and harass political opponents. They're just another gang of the thugs you seem to be so afraid of. So raise an organized stink to reform the police instead of going out and bashing in heads and giving the police you hate so much every reason to arrest you? Just a thought. Spacedad fucked around with this message at 11:49 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 11:41
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Spacedad posted:It's antidemocratic attitudes like this that make people conflate anti-fascists with fascists, sadly.  not anti-democratic. Now whose shutting down debate with strawmen?Democracy is not an end in itself, it's a means, and when those means have been subverted from the emancipation of the proletariat towards the enrichment of the bourgeois then there is nothing wrong with being anti-democratic as democracy is defined in liberal democracies (hint, that's not the only definition). For instance, you do realise you don't live in a democracy? You live in a republic that is, at best, an elective oligarchy. That is the western definition of democracy and it enslaves the working class to a form of government that works in a manner directly opposed to their interests and shuts down criticism as "undemocratic". Their only form of political expression now deemed illegitimate, liberals like you hear the word "undemocratic" or "anti-democratic" and tut and shake your head at the audacity of the poor and go back to reading the guardian and drinking your lattes and all the while the precariat suffer and die in a system stacked against them with no political expression allowed. When a system like that exists, political violence is not only justified it is necessary. Likewise when faced with a political ethos that is explicitly anti-democratic (in all definitions) then so called anti-democratic methods are legitimate. Iohannes fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 11:42
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Iohannes posted:
Yes, thanks for the lecture. I already knew all of this, but was making an aside about something that irked me a little. I'm not even a liberal per se, but I'm starting to get annoyed at the demonization that liberals keep getting - it's not really directly relevant to the issues of political violence though so maybe we should get back on track.
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Jun 11, 2013 11:44
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Spacedad posted:but I'm starting to get annoyed at the demonization that liberals keep getting It's deserved.
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Jun 11, 2013 11:46
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Spacedad posted:You mean you really can't tell the difference between assault and self-defense? Everyone is entitled to self-defense - but when five grown men on steroids and cocaine stomps kids into the ground with boots on, that right doesn't mean a lot. If you don't understand that meaningful self-defense on behalf of our communities mean organizing to disrupt and remove the fascists from our streets, then enjoy it when they come for you.
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Jun 11, 2013 11:46
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But liberalism rejects ideological struggle and stands for unprincipled peace, thus giving rise to a decadent, Philistine attitude and bringing about political degeneration in certain units and individuals.
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Jun 11, 2013 11:48
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Spacedad posted:You mean you really can't tell the difference between assault and self-defense? It gets kind of complicated when the other side's primary tactic is violence. Basically, publicly being a fascist is, quite literally, announcing to the world that you wish for the violent expulsion of anyone you deem undesirable, whether they be black, gay, left-of-centre, or whatever. It's a declaration of war - and given the militaristic ideology, structure, and imagery of fascism, that's not a metaphor either. It's kind of hard to engage in reasoned dispute with someone who wants to kill you. No, violence isn't a permanent solution. It's a containment measure until we can choke off the demand for fascism through re-enfranchising the underclass that gives it its recruits. However, containment measures are highly necessary given how fast-spreading and damaging fascism is (just check out the upsurges in racial violence after the BNP started being elected to public office in the '80s), and violence is a particularly effective one given that fascism explicitly rejects negotiation as anything other than a delaying and publicity-mongering tactic whilst they restock their arsenal. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 11:56 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 11:48
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Spacedad posted:Yes, thanks for the lecture. I already knew all of this, but was making an aside about something that irked me a little. I'm not even a liberal per se, but I'm starting to get annoyed at the demonization that liberals keep getting - it's not really directly relevant to the issues of political violence though so maybe we should get back on track. If you know all this and still think it's unfair to demonise liberals then you may know it, but you don't understand it. "We may control the world's economic and political systems and rig them to the benefit of a minority, but it's so unfair that we get mocked."
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Jun 11, 2013 11:50
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Tias posted:Everyone is entitled to self-defense - but when five grown men on steroids and cocaine stomps kids into the ground with boots on, that right doesn't mean a lot. If you don't understand that meaningful self-defense on behalf of our communities mean organizing to disrupt and remove the fascists from our streets, then enjoy it when they come for you. So say, if a dozen or so young adult males were to pound on an old man at a rally, then you'd be fully in favor of members of that old man's group roaming around looking for people in the group that attacked him to assault, right?  Also, I'm not buying the excuse of not trusting the police. That's when you work like gently caress to change the police through political action (actual political action, not beating people up) or build a trusted relationship with them. Institutional change isn't going to happen unless you fight for it - and again, by 'fight' I don't mean beating people up. Spacedad fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 11:54
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Spacedad posted:Also, I'm not buying the excuse of not trusting the police. That's when you work like gently caress to change the police through political action (actual political action, not beating people up) or build a trusted relationship with them. That's a long-term fix. A very long-term fix, given how deep-rooted institutional racism and support for the far-right tend to be in police forces. Again, fascism spreads really quickly, so you still need short-term containment strategies in the intermediary period whilst the police are still not a reliable ally.
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Jun 11, 2013 11:59
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Spacedad posted:Also, I'm not buying the excuse of not trusting the police. That's when you work like gently caress to change the police through political action (actual political action, not beating people up) or build a trusted relationship with them. Institutional change isn't going to happen unless you fight for it - and again, by 'fight' I don't mean beating people up.
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Jun 11, 2013 12:02
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Darth Walrus posted:That's a long-term fix. A very long-term fix, given how deep-rooted institutional racism and support for the far-right tend to be in police forces. Again, fascism spreads really quickly, so you still need short-term containment strategies in the intermediary period whilst the police are still not a reliable ally. Unfortunately the short term 'strategy' (I don't even think one could call it that) seems to not exactly endear the protesters to the police. I don't doubt that a lot of what the antifa view as favoritism that defends the fascists is really just cops getting sick to gently caress with the violent retaliatory idiots who come in and escalate things - which is quite literally what was revealed to have happened in Canada recently over some protests where cops overreacted. We have this problem in the US too - Usually what makes the most difference to fix it is when a reform-minded police chief or sheriff takes over, and there's a line of communication. The fact that it is so very difficult for ordinary people to defend themselves against violent hate groups like the EDL is all the more reason of course for people opposed to them to fight for better law enforcement, and build a rapport with local police.
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Jun 11, 2013 12:06
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Oh wow. Holy poo poo this custom title. Wow, whoever did that - go to hell. I'm done with this thread for good now. You know, normally I'd expect to get homophobic bullshit from actual fascists, not the people who are supposed to be standing against them. Spacedad fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 12:07
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Your custom title accurately reflects your opinions as far as I can see. edit - oh it's gone already.
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Jun 11, 2013 12:15
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