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Mercury Ballistic posted:My house is 1950s vintage as well, and it too has the box on the outside in the back yard. If not for a fence, it would be street accessible. My house was but in 2005 and has the panel on the side of the garage about 20 feet from the curb with no fence in between. This is the same for the other tens of thousands houses in my neighborhood. You all have me paranoid someone is going to flip my breakers in the middle of the night now 
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Jun 11, 2013 06:19
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Jerry Cotton posted:It's locked, right? I mean it's not rare here to have them outside the house but not freely accessible to passers-by. No. There's a tab that I could use to lock the entire box, but frankly I think that'd be too dangerous. I don't want the main breaker switch to be inaccessible in an emergency. Guy Axlerod posted:I'd want to at least lock the breaker while I'm working on that circuit: That is a cool thing and I will try to find one. FCKGW posted:You all have me paranoid someone is going to flip my breakers in the middle of the night now If you have a security system, I'd make sure that it has some kind of battery-based thing that lets it report when your power is shut off. This should not by itself trigger an alarm, of course, but you don't want the evil criminals to be able to easily shut off your security just by throwing a switch. Otherwise I don't think it's a problem.
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Jun 11, 2013 16:41
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Jerry Cotton posted:I just made sure not to touch two wires at the same time and I'm still alive. I don't even know where the fuse box is You probably already realize this, but "Just don't touch both wires at once!" is an excellent and easy way to get yourself killed, even if it didn't in this particular case. You don't even necessarily need to touch both wires to shock yourself if you happen to be touching anything else that's grounded, let alone the risk of your hand slipping or you dropping it.
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Jun 11, 2013 20:10
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(I'm renting an apartment in a three-apartment house)
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Parallel Paraplegic posted:You probably already realize this, but "Just don't touch both wires at once!" is an excellent and easy way to get yourself killed, even if it didn't in this particular case. You don't even necessarily need to touch both wires to shock yourself if you happen to be touching anything else that's grounded, let alone the risk of your hand slipping or you dropping it. Well I was standing on a ladder (wooden) but it seemed a lot better than "touch both wires at the same time". Dropping what though? There's about 10 cm of each wire showing. I put insulating tape on the one I connected last since there was no way to avoid touching it while working, otherwise.  (I'm not saying it was safe anyway. The safe way would have been to wait for someone who could hold a torch for me so I could have turned the main switch but, alas, I did not.) 3D Megadoodoo fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 20:17
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Is that how it is right now? That is not safe. Exposed wiring is pretty much never OK. Please don't touch it again without the circuit turned off and verified off using appropriate tools. Actually maybe just hire an electrician.
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Jun 11, 2013 21:38
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I'd replace the terminal block with wire nuts, but I'm assuming that the wiring isn't normally exposed like that in the first place and I don't really see how that ... cone thing ... would attach to the ceiling to cover the wires.
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Jun 11, 2013 21:45
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The cone thing is pushed up so it covers all the wires. It just slides along the cord and is held in place with friction (some have a tiny blunt plastic screw to make sure). This is perfectly normal for any pre-90s (or maybe late 80s?) ceiling lights.
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Jun 11, 2013 21:54
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Then I don't see any problem with the wiring other than the terminal block, which I don't think is normal.
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Jun 11, 2013 21:59
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I don't think I've ever seen wire nuts used here for lamps, it's always just the "sugar cube" (as it's called). I have no idea why. edit: Except after the nineties (I checked) of course. Newer installations have sockets. 3D Megadoodoo fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 22:01
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DNova posted:Then I don't see any problem with the wiring other than the terminal block, which I don't think is normal. This looks like that terminal block and the website shows it rated for A/C. I still would change it out for wirenuts, we used to use them when i used to do commercial fire alarm and they had a habit of coming loose on their own. iForge fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 22:03
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iForge posted:Ive done a lot of commercial fire alarm work and that looks exactly like the ones we used to use in panels, and they were not rated for 120v. He needs to change that terminal block out for wirenuts. Good thing we don't use 120v.
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Jun 11, 2013 22:04
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Just out of curiosity I checked out what Tukes (Safety technology centre) had to say about terminal blocks. Nothing alarming there, not even a suggestion to install a modern socket (although it's apparently one of the very few things a non-electrician can legally install), so I'm sure there haven't been any notable issues in the past hundred-or-so years.
3D Megadoodoo fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 22:11
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iForge posted:This looks like that terminal block and the website shows it rated for A/C. I still would change it out for wirenuts, we used to use them when i used to do commercial fire alarm and they had a habit of coming loose on their own. I know them as "European Style" terminal blocks and I've never heard of them being used in residential power wiring applications.
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Jun 11, 2013 22:11
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I tried to look up what the hell wire nuts are called in Finnish (I know they're available since I've seen them used in cars) and all I've found so far is that some types were banned in the UK (maybe just a specific brand). e: Can't find anything. I'll ask an electrician tomorrow. 3D Megadoodoo fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 22:21
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Those are normal terminal blocks, known colloquialy as "snotters". They very much are used domestically/residentially and come in a variety of power ratings. E; in the uk
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Jun 11, 2013 22:25
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All of my residential wiring experience is US-based. I don't think anywhere in the US would use terminal blocks like that. But I also would have lost a bet that anyone would have their fuckin' breaker box OUTSIDE and apparently that is a common thing in some parts of the world...
sleepy gary fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 22:31
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My friend who lives in Finland tells me that light fixtures use them as a special case because apartments don't generally come with light fixtures, so the renter is expected to be able to furnish and install them, hence the terminal blocks (or, more modern sockets). This is also a horribly bizarre concept to me. Europe is so weird. edit: He says wire nut = huppuliitin http://www.biltema.fi/fi/Rakentaminen/Sahko/Tarvikkeet/Huppuliitin-35834/ sleepy gary fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 22:36
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Weird? Rich coming from someone who uses half the right amount of electricity 
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Jun 11, 2013 22:41
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DNova posted:edit: He says wire nut = huppuliitin Thanks.
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Jun 11, 2013 22:44
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Cakefool posted:Weird? Rich coming from someone who uses half the right amount of electricity It's weird to me that renters are expected to provide light fixtures. I live in central Europe and I know it goes even beyond that: some apartments don't even come with kitchen cabinets, sinks, etc. It's loving weird. However, as an electrical engineer, I readily concede that 240V mains is far more sensible than 120V. I'd stick with 60Hz though. Further, I really like terminal blocks and I use them a lot when I make things, but never in residential wiring because as far as I know that's not acceptable at all.
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Jun 11, 2013 22:46
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They're all over the world due to former colonies inheriting British building practices. I'm more amazed that they're not used in the US.
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Jun 12, 2013 01:15
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They are very commonly used in AC powered equipment, but not for building wiring systems for some reason. Do you guys use stranded conductor wire for in-wall? Because we mostly use solid conductor, and I'm honestly not sure I'd trust those (called "euro style barrier strips" here) with solid conductor wires of that gauge.
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Jun 12, 2013 01:19
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iForge posted:a habit of coming loose on their own. The general consensus on electrical safety sites on the internet seems to be that they can come loose if not properly tightened in the beginning, or if you use the wrong size so, you just did a poor job I guess? 
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Jun 12, 2013 01:19
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DNova posted:All of my residential wiring experience is US-based. I don't think anywhere in the US would use terminal blocks like that. But I also would have lost a bet that anyone would have their fuckin' breaker box OUTSIDE and apparently that is a common thing in some parts of the world... Alright well now you guys have me paranoid. So here is my deal, with exciting photos: My outdoor box is secured by a cactus!  (This Nopal cactus is a triple-threat. It discourages anyone from scaling my fence, it makes edible fruit, and you can also cut young lobes off and cook them.) Also note: encrusted remnants of many former cable and sattelite installations. The previous owners left me with no less than four defunct DISH network satellites on the roof, plus a former cable installation. Also running loving everywhere are phone lines, tacked-on exterior lighting, an old security system, an automated sprinkler system, and more; none of these things currently work. Yay. Here is the box in question, directly beneath the newfangled wireless smart-meter.  The smart-meter thing is pretty great. I can log on to PG&E and see my hourly usage, going back months. I can actually see exactly how much my A/C unit is costing me when it runs (I figured out it's a little under a dollar an hour, which is probably pretty poo poo but it's an old unit). This is what you see when you open the lid. I kept this a pretty large photo so you can read my amazing labels, which I made a couple days after I moved in. (Mystery Circuit is the 40 amp dedicated line for the A/C, I figured that out later.)  And if you remove the metal faceplate, here's the wiring.  It's old, there's some dead bugs and a bit of cobweb, but nothing looks horribly dangerous to my untrained eye. Is my house going to burn down? Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Jun 12, 2013 |
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Jun 12, 2013 01:43
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Looks pretty solid to me, as long as none of the connections are loose (particularly the grounds and neutrals in that bar along the bottom) - it's quite sparse/underpowered for modern construction, but looks like it would have been sufficient probably 40 years ago or so. e: I don't even see any charring/overheated conductors, and it appears you have another two slots for breakers in the top row if you end up needing to expand slightly. Make sure your service can handle it.
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Jun 12, 2013 01:50
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Leperflesh posted:Is my house going to burn down? Well it is now that you've asked and jinxed it.
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Jun 12, 2013 01:51
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Built in 1958. With all the bedroom sockets on the same 15 amp line, I had to run a heavy extension cord from an unused grounded outlet in the kitchen back to one bedroom in order to have a grounded outlet for my computer stuff. That is probably not super-safe either, but it was supposed to be temporary until I could ground the outlets. Now my plan has changed to just installing GFCI. I'm still not super-certain that I won't overload that 15 amp circuit if I run everything in the back off of it, so I need to do some math and figure out how much load I'm actually putting on it at peak.
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Jun 12, 2013 01:53
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Wait,  Why are there red and black conductors going to single gang breakers next to each other? Two options here: 1. 240 volt circuit using single gang breakers. Not legal, not safe. 2. two 120 volt circuits using the same neutral. WTF? I counted and there are 6 logical "pairs" (some singles): left upper single breaker double gang breaker for AC on left lower two single breakers on left right upper single breaker middle two single breakers on right lower two single breakers on right And 6 neutral wires going into the neutral/ground bonding bar. So I guess it's option 2, two 120 volt circuits using the same neutral (in 3 cases.) WTF is going on there? Is that even legal? I honestly don't know. I guess it'd make sense, since they're shared neutrals between the two phases, so the neutral still sees a maximum of one breaker worth of current (since it only handles the imbalance between the loads on the two hot legs) but that's loving strange. It appears all the "paired" single breakers are matched in current rating, so that's good at least. It looks like 3 of the cables (two of the #12 or #14 gauge wires and the heavy cable for the AC, going by appearance - I can't quite trace them in that tangle) have their ground conductors hooked up, so assuming they haven't been cut back too short at the other end, you can do grounding outlets on those branches simply by properly grounding the outlets to the boxes and cables. The other 3 circuits appear to have had the ground conductor clipped back, but I may be missing them. e: make that 4 of the cables, I missed the green coded ground on the first run through. kastein fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Jun 12, 2013 |
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Jun 12, 2013 02:01
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I have several grounded circuits in the house: at a minimum, I've tested & confirmed grounded circuits on the A/C, three in the kitchen (#s 6, 8, and 12), the #10 circuit in the garage (which may be separately grounded there since I found a grounding strap on the cold water pipe in the laundry area), and I think there's another grounded circuit (might be the second garage circuit, or it might be the front porch/doorbell, since the porch light has a ground wire that goes to the metal junction box the light's affixed to, but that might not actually be grounded past that point and I forgot to test when I replaced the porch light). The circuits that aren't grounded are the bathroom (which needs to be switched to GFCI), and the living room/bedrooms (which don't have to be per code, but I want at least one grounded or GFCI outlet in each bedroom if I can do it easily). Oh and the A/C I assume is 240v, everything else is 120v. I have a gas dryer so there's no electrical hookup for a dryer in the garage. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Jun 12, 2013 |
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Jun 12, 2013 02:17
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I just want to double-check this... To ensure that the GFCIs that I install will function properly I am going to have to make sure that all of the jumpers from the ground pins to neutral are removed from downstream outlets, correct? My understanding is that 3-prong outlets with no grounding but protected by a GFCI are OK if labeled with "GFCI Protected - No Equipment Ground". I will just need to avoid the use of regular MOV-protected surge protectors as they won't function correctly without a ground line. This is going to be frustrating as hell because I can't key-out the circuits without turning the breakers off at the panel, which is a huge do-not-do on FPE stab-lok panels if you want them to actually work in an overcurrent situation. kastein... did you see the panel I posted?! Maybe you need more resolution because check out the number of red/black pairs in single-pole breakers.  I mean... oof. And the double-pole breakers are the really bad FPE breakers, which if one pole has an overcurrent it jams. So if they did something silly such as using dual poles to run two sets of outlets or if an appliance experiences a short between one pole and neutral...  Also I really need to find out where the hell that hot white in the middle right is going.
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Jun 12, 2013 18:19
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god damnit man I had just managed to erase that from my memory. FUUUUUUCK. 
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Jun 12, 2013 18:32
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Oh my, just looking at that image: There was a red wire in the molex run but they cut it off at the box entry. There is no neutral connection, but there is a ground! What the gently caress...
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Jun 12, 2013 18:42
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kastein posted:And 6 neutral wires going into the neutral/ground bonding bar. So I guess it's option 2, two 120 volt circuits using the same neutral (in 3 cases.) WTF is going on there? Is that even legal? I honestly don't know. I guess it'd make sense, since they're shared neutrals between the two phases, so the neutral still sees a maximum of one breaker worth of current (since it only handles the imbalance between the loads on the two hot legs) but that's loving strange. It appears all the "paired" single breakers are matched in current rating, so that's good at least. This is a common and accepted wiring method, known as an Edison circuit, or a multiwire branch circuit. Code now is to have a handle tie or double pole breaker for them, though.
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Jun 12, 2013 19:08
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kastein posted:Do you guys use stranded conductor wire for in-wall? Because we mostly use solid conductor, and I'm honestly not sure I'd trust those (called "euro style barrier strips" here) with solid conductor wires of that gauge. Solid in-wall, I've never had one come loose regardless of conductor size. I think it comes down to being brave and cranking them down tight
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Jun 12, 2013 19:20
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I thought breaker boxes outside the building were so that emergency personnel could kill the power before entering the building in case of an interior fire or gas leak. Live wires cascading out of the wall or ceiling during a rescue has to be nightmare material for firefighters.
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Jun 12, 2013 19:28
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hemorrhage posted:This is a common and accepted wiring method, known as an Edison circuit, or a multiwire branch circuit. Code now is to have a handle tie or double pole breaker for them, though. Can you explain what this means, in basic layperson terms? Like, should I only turn off certain breakers in pairs, or shoudl I go buy a tie for some of them? If so, which ones specifically? I want to be safe.
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Jun 12, 2013 22:01
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DNova posted:It's weird to me that renters are expected to provide light fixtures. I live in central Europe and I know it goes even beyond that: some apartments don't even come with kitchen cabinets, sinks, etc. It's loving weird. I think the lack of fixtures etc. is a consequence of some renters being assholes. For the purpose of this discussion, a renter is defined as an rear end in a top hat if s/he follows these rules when moving out (or when given eviction notice): 1.) Everything that is not nailed down is mine, even if it was already there when I moved in. 2.) (optional) What I can easily pry loose is not nailed down.
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Jun 12, 2013 22:40
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Nah, they just have a different attitude about what's appropriate for a tenant to do. You want to redecorate the place and put down laminate floors? Sure, no problem. You can negotiate a fair price with the landlord for the value you're adding. It's common to rent somewhere for years (where I was living in Southern Germany, it's unusual to buy a house before your mid-30s) so it's seen as a more permanent arrangement. Furnished lets are rare, and you're going to get gouged. I'm not totally sure how having to install your own kitchen became a thing, but they seem happy with it.
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Jun 13, 2013 00:01
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Leperflesh posted:Can you explain what this means, in basic layperson terms? Like, should I only turn off certain breakers in pairs, or shoudl I go buy a tie for some of them? If so, which ones specifically? I want to be safe. A multiwire branch circuit is where 2 or more circuits on different phases share a neutral. It's mainly for safety reasons. Usually, those 2 circuits would be bundled into the same /3 cable on the red and black wires along with the white neutral. Well, that cable runs somewhere in the house. Suppose that someday you have to do work on the box where that /3 cable ends, so you shut off the circuit with the black wire at the panel, thinking you're safe. Then you go to untwist the red wire also in that box and you get shocked. The new code tries to fix that from ever happening. By tying those two circuits together, shutting one off forces you to shut the other off as well. This has been code for major appliances using multiple phases for decades. Depending on the manufacturer, either all the levers on that multiphase breaker are tied together, or that mulitphase breaker only has a single handle. Here's the simple version of tying breakers together... ignoring individual wires run inside conduit anyway. That can take awhile to figure out. Anyway, Find out where every cable enters that box and go through them one at a time. If that cable has just one black wire, ignore it. If it has a black and a red, then follow both colors to their respective breakers, because they need to be tied together. If those 2 breakers aren't next to each other, then you will have to swap around some breakers until they are. I recommend using some numbered tape and a notepad while doing this. If you do need to swap breakers around, don't forget to update the labels on the panel.
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Jun 13, 2013 19:28
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kid sinister posted:A multiwire branch circuit is where 2 or more circuits on different phases share a neutral. It's mainly for safety reasons. Usually, those 2 circuits would be bundled into the same /3 cable on the red and black wires along with the white neutral. Well, that cable runs somewhere in the house. Suppose that someday you have to do work on the box where that /3 cable ends, so you shut off the circuit with the black wire at the panel, thinking you're safe. Then you go to untwist the red wire also in that box and you get shocked. The new code tries to fix that from ever happening. By tying those two circuits together, shutting one off forces you to shut the other off as well. This has been code for major appliances using multiple phases for decades. Depending on the manufacturer, either all the levers on that multiphase breaker are tied together, or that mulitphase breaker only has a single handle. Thank you for this explanation. However I do not appear to have a main breaker. I cannot turn off the street drop that enters the box. Is it dangerous to pull out breakers with the power from the street still coming in? Is this something where I need to call my utility to shut off the power to my house before I proceed? If this is too much of a derail I can move this to the electricity megathread.
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Jun 14, 2013 05:14
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