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Slybo posted:Its easy to be critical of funding the ouya but what really blows my mind is people plopping down $300 for that lame rear end omnidirectional treadmill thing. How easy opinions change... Slybo posted:So for $99 can I replace my Raspberry Pi with a device that not only runs XBMC faster, but seamlessly smooth and can also play SNES games(roms) on my tv? You see that excitement in the first post? That's why everybody funded it. On paper, it's not bad as a pirate-a-bunch-of-games-and-movies box. People had some faith and assumed they wouldn't be lying pieces of poo poo who couldn't even manage a class of Kindergarteners.
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Jun 15, 2013 03:13
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Uhg. I hosed up my point. I meant its easy to be critical of funding the ouya in retrospect (for some dumb rear end reason I forgot to type that word) It wasn't unreasonable for backers to think it was actually going to do what they said it would. I THEN proceeded to point out a kickstarter that just dosnt make any sense at all to fund. And "excitement in the first post". I'm sorry but no, you misinterpreted my tone. Slybo fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Jun 15, 2013 |
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Jun 15, 2013 03:19
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gnarlyhotep posted:Remember Bitcoin? It's like that. And like bitcoin, it's taken seriously by people who are supposed to know what they're talking about despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary just because it's SUBVERTING THE SYSTEM! Slybo posted:Its easy to be critical of funding the ouya but what really blows my mind is people plopping down $300 for that lame rear end omnidirectional treadmill thing. The key difference is if I was rich I'd buy the gently caress out of one of those treadmills while I still wouldn't care about the Ouya.
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Jun 15, 2013 03:19
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ace_beef posted:Is it an acronym for something? I feel like a real moron asking these questions, but this is honestly baffling to me. Open Up Your rear end. It's what all the Kickstarter backers did.
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Jun 15, 2013 03:19
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njsykora posted:The key difference is if I was rich I'd buy the gently caress out of one of those treadmills while I still wouldn't care about the Ouya. Its not that much of a difference really. You are just trading one worthless item for another. What happens if you turn around and get your Oculus cables wrapped around you? It reeks of being a novelty gimmick piece of crap that you use for a day and then never touch again, quietly wishing you never wasted money on it. 
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Jun 15, 2013 03:29
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Slybo posted:Project M.O.J.O is gonna save the day  Look it's a good move to allow it to use the Google Play store but they couldn't be bothered to customize the OS (outside of the wallpaper) at all?
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Jun 15, 2013 03:36
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Slybo posted:It wasn't unreasonable for backers to think it was actually going to do what they said it would. Amazingly lots of people here recognized it as a DOA turd during the Kickstarter. If you put any critical thought into it, the concept immediately fell apart.
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Jun 15, 2013 03:41
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Crackbone posted:Amazingly lots of people here recognized it as a DOA turd during the Kickstarter. If you put any critical thought into it, the concept immediately fell apart. The entire first thread is full of people pointing this out, and certain other people not getting it and insisting this was going to be THE next big thing.
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Jun 15, 2013 03:43
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Well then I guess I'm just lucky that I didn't kick start ouya simply because it didn't interest me at the time. (I doubt I would have kick-started it even if I was) Slybo fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Jun 15, 2013 |
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Jun 15, 2013 03:46
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cronox2 posted:
Why put some laggy rear end launcher or skin on it? This is exactly what people don't want.
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Jun 15, 2013 04:53
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Slybo posted:It wasn't unreasonable for backers to think it was actually going to do what they said it would. Yeah, I mean it's not like they promised a root button "right on the box" or anything. There were so many red flag statements in their kickstarter that it amazes me how it ever got funded.
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Jun 15, 2013 05:02
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Slybo posted:Well then I guess I'm just lucky that I didn't kick start ouya simply because it didn't interest me at the time. Basically, there's no reason for a developer to release things on it other than ignorance. Your chance of profit at any effort level is basically 0. Which sinks the whole thing, really.
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Jun 15, 2013 05:23
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Slybo posted:What happens if you turn around and get your Oculus cables wrapped around you? It reeks of being a novelty gimmick piece of crap that you use for a day and then never touch again, quietly wishing you never wasted money on it. I don't know about the Omnitreadmill + Oculus thing for a home set-up but think about schools/museums/architect design/events. Government wants a big fancy new Arts center? Someone designs it and takes them through a fully rendered virtual tour of it. Or at a convention or something, a movie you can walk around in. The OUYA? I can play phone games on my couch!
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Jun 15, 2013 05:30
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Cippalippus posted:In truth, unboxing videos are a cancer of our times and have never, or will never, be remotely funny or interesting. AMVs are still the #1 worst waste byproduct of video sharing.
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Jun 15, 2013 05:40
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Those examples are too lofty and task specific to be mass marketable. $300 is a lot to ask for on their part. And I'm not fighting with you about the OUYA. I haven't been keeping up on it nor have I "put any critical thought into it". I did in fact foolishly assume it might be an eay way to replace some of my existing gadgets some day. Then I went on with my life. Now that its almost about to launch I am only recently educating myself about its true lovely nature. Some us just passively sat back and hoped for something similar to an Android stick that was designed with games in mind. You know? Cuz even though it caught our attention we still didn't pay THAT much attention to it. You had it pegged from the start. Well congrats to you! Your smart & I'm dumb. Are we good now? And I havnt heard about the Rift being wireless. That would be pretty cool (but how much will that battery weigh)? Slybo fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Jun 15, 2013 |
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Jun 15, 2013 05:52
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Releasing a new console every year, strictly more powerful than the last, isn't inherently a bad model. Yes, it's a form of fragmentation, which means that development and testing costs are higher because the environment is less predictable and the game has to adjust for the capabilities of the actual hardware. But fragmentation isn't on/off. For example, consider a platform where you had to support a combinatorial explosion of:
And, frankly, the current console model where manufacturers lose money on hardware for a year or so because they have to lock in the best specs they can is kindof silly. I don't think the OUYA will succeed, but planned obsolescence isn't going to be why.
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Jun 15, 2013 12:43
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Has anyone put their OUYA inside of their OUYA beer koozie yet? I can't find any pictures, Google isn't helping.
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Jun 15, 2013 12:52
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Gorgolflox posted:Has anyone put their OUYA inside of their OUYA beer koozie yet? I can't find any pictures, Google isn't helping. It would overheat very quickly.
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Jun 15, 2013 13:07
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Hatbox Ghost posted:It would overheat very quickly. But they put the heat vent on the bottom. God man if you just put it in the ice cooler you won't have to worry about this stuff! Just throw it next to the pabst blue ribbon when you have your friends come over in flannel to knock a few Zemas down while watching old tapings of friends on VHS.
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Jun 15, 2013 14:16
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How many shots of alcohol would fit inside the OUYA's shell if you removed the PCB? This is important.
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Jun 15, 2013 14:47
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DalaranJ posted:How many shots of alcohol would fit inside the OUYA's shell if you removed the PCB? This is important. I think this would be the only time those bottom air vents would be relevant.
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Jun 15, 2013 15:09
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rjmccall posted:Releasing a new console every year, strictly more powerful than the last, isn't inherently a bad model. Yes, it's a form of fragmentation, which means that development and testing costs are higher because the environment is less predictable and the game has to adjust for the capabilities of the actual hardware. But fragmentation isn't on/off. But the whole point is that if you're willing to put up with the PC's fragmentation issues, there's no reason not to just develop for PC. No one buys a console or develops for a console because the hardware is nicer than what's available on PC, it's because you have a stable, largely identical system. The consumer knows games will run on it without having to check "oh does this game run properly on ATI"/"is my computer fast enough to run this", and the developers can test on a single environment. Additionally, the OUYA already has major problems with install base and because of that, issues with the viability of porting to OUYA. Maybe it's worth it now when you barely have to change it from the android version, but if you need to take the android version and do version testing and scaling that might be different from what you've set up for different phones, why bother for 60,000 people with <1% conversion rate? Plus, since a lot of stuff developed for android will be for phones, it likely won't take advantage of the higher processing power of a new update to the OUYA, since they'll worry about battery consumption, older phones, etc. Taciturn Tactician fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Jun 15, 2013 |
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Jun 15, 2013 15:15
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So, the number of apps jumped up by ten overnight. Don't worry, though. It's just one guy who ported 9 emulators and like one other game. For s second there I thought people were making games for OUYA. June has been better than May. There have been 8 or so titles this month. They all look like the same garbage you would see on XBLIG.
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Jun 15, 2013 16:05
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rjmccall posted:For example, consider a platform where you had to support a combinatorial explosion of: Oh, kinda like Android? 
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Jun 15, 2013 16:11
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theflyingorc posted:
At least the bad XBLIG games are funny. These just seem hideously boring.
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Jun 15, 2013 16:15
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Is no luca no available for ouya?
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Jun 15, 2013 16:24
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Tracula posted:At least the bad XBLIG games are funny. These just seem hideously boring. Does the Ouya controller have rumble? We could yet get a massage game.
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Jun 15, 2013 19:30
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Taciturn Tactician posted:But the whole point is that if you're willing to put up with the PC's fragmentation issues, there's no reason not to just develop for PC. No one buys a console or develops for a console because the hardware is nicer than what's available on PC, it's because you have a stable, largely identical system. The consumer knows games will run on it without having to check "oh does this game run properly on ATI"/"is my computer fast enough to run this", and the developers can test on a single environment. A yearly-updated console is much more manageable, though. There are so many possible configurations of PCs that it might as well be infinite, and the environment not being exclusive is killer. On a YUC, you'd have maybe five viable versions at once, all more similar than different, and they'd fall into a nice progression where each was strictly more powerful than the last. For developers, you just do basic playthrough testing on a couple extra devices. For users, the online store tells you before you buy that the game doesn't run on your ancient console, and physical copies (if you even care?) are branded "For YUC 3 And Up!" in big, bright letters. Meanwhile, your console can always be profitable to make, and you can roll out better and better hardware every year, and your customers will price-differentiate themselves by deciding how often they want to upgrade. Some will do it every four years, and they'll probably get a year of not being to play all the newest games. Some will do it every two years, and they'll always be fine. Some people will upgrade every year, and others will upgrade to last years' model every year, and there will be tons of your old consoles floating out there, enticing people to your brand/platform (and then encouraging them to upgrade because their old console can't run the new sexy). Taciturn Tactician posted:Additionally, the OUYA already has major problems with install base and because of that, issues with the viability of porting to OUYA. Maybe it's worth it now when you barely have to change it from the android version, but if you need to take the android version and do version testing and scaling that might be different from what you've set up for different phones, why bother for 60,000 people with <1% conversion rate? Plus, since a lot of stuff developed for android will be for phones, it likely won't take advantage of the higher processing power of a new update to the OUYA, since they'll worry about battery consumption, older phones, etc. Android itself is pretty drat fragmented, as somebody else observed. Someone writing portable stuff for Android is already either writing to a really minimal baseline or has an engine that scales to the hardware as best it can. In the former case, your game hopefully just works on the new hardware and doesn't need specific extra testing. In the latter case, tweaking the engine to take advantage of a specific platform's capabilities is not that much work. Of course, doing any extra porting for OUYA is a waste of time, but that's because OUYA is dead in the water, not because YUCs are inherently unworkable. Almost nothing is worth doing if you're only going to gross $20 off it. The correct conclusion here is not "YUCs with an active install base of <10K are not viable", it's "No console with an active install base of <10K is viable".
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Jun 15, 2013 21:49
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rjmccall posted:Meanwhile, your console can always be profitable to make, and you can roll out better and better hardware every year, and your customers will price-differentiate themselves by deciding how often they want to upgrade. Some will do it every four years, and they'll probably get a year of not being to play all the newest games. Some will do it every two years, and they'll always be fine. Some people will upgrade every year, and others will upgrade to last years' model every year, and there will be tons of your old consoles floating out there, enticing people to your brand/platform (and then encouraging them to upgrade because their old console can't run the new sexy). You're going to have to provide some sort of price evidence because console hardware manufacture is one hell of an expensive thing to do.
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Jun 15, 2013 22:31
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theflyingorc posted:So, the number of apps jumped up by ten overnight. How many games was Xboxpants toxx clause?
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Jun 16, 2013 01:05
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njark posted:How many games was Xboxpants toxx clause? XboxPants posted:Alright then - since orc toxx'd that my prediction was wrong, I guess it's fair if I toxx that his is wrong.
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Jun 16, 2013 01:23
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Boiled Water posted:because console hardware manufacture is one hell of an expensive thing to do. Not when you skip on component choice, engineering, build quality, quality assurance and software testing!
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Jun 16, 2013 01:57
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Slybo posted:Its not that much of a difference really. You are just trading one worthless item for another. Why are you so hung up on the completely optional treadmill part of it? That is gimmicky, but I doubt many people are even thinking of that when they think of the Rift. There are plenty of other applications even in video games that wouldn't need it. - FPSes, as we've already seen, if you don't care about the "physically moving" part of the movement controls, you can just use a KB/M or a controller like people already do. Something like Mirror's Edge would be nuts. - Pretty much any kind of simulator: racing games, flight sims, mech games, certain sports games, pretty much anything with a first-person view, which exist in loving piles, would be goddamned amazing if you had a setup with the appropriate peripherals. So that's five entire popular genres of video games I just came up with in like 30 seconds of thinking that would be enhanced with something like this, which is five more worthwhile things than you'll ever get out of the ouya. And if you think that people wouldn't pay $300 for something like this, considering we're only talking about game applications here, then you clearly don't know anyone who is into racing games, fighting games, or building high end gaming PCs.
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Jun 16, 2013 02:06
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Boiled Water posted:You're going to have to provide some sort of price evidence because console hardware manufacture is one hell of an expensive thing to do. Well, "profitable" was probably a stretch, but it's pretty well-known that consoles start off being sold at an insane loss but that per-unit costs (at least to manufacture) tend to go black as the console sticks around. There are a lot of individual reasons for that — supply-chain optimizations, manufacturing improvements, overall technological improvements, etc. — but in general, the closer your hardware gets to being "commodity", the closer you can get to profitable. Case in point: processor yields on the current generation consoles. The Xbox 360 motherboard is estimated to have dropped from about $370/unit at launch to $204 a year later. $370/unit is actually pretty good already, and it was made possible in part because the CPU was a tweaked PowerPC design which IBM already had a lot of production experience with; as process technology improved, they were able to quickly ramp up yields. Meanwhile, the PS3's Cell processor was a novel design that (at least initially) had massive manufacturing problems that, as I understand it, took years to get substantially better, even with two process jumps. If you're not forcing yourself to get out ahead of the market because otherwise you'll be ridiculously out-of-date for a decade, you don't have to ship with a processor with only 15% manufacturing yields. Another example: at the PS3's launch, supply constraints on Blu-ray laser diodes alone were estimated to have increased the cost of the console by about $100. I'm not saying that this would've necessarily been the right strategic move, but under a yearly update scheme, they would have had the option to ship with only a DVD drive until the supply chain was sorted out. And since each iteration is more similar than not to the last, supply chain and technology improvements from previous releases will still usually carry over to the next.
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Jun 16, 2013 03:02
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But if you keep updating your console every year with newer, better hardware, you'll never get a chance to realize those types of savings?
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Jun 16, 2013 03:34
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rjmccall posted:I'm not saying that this would've necessarily been the right strategic move, but under a yearly update scheme, they would have had the option to ship with only a DVD drive until the supply chain was sorted out. I think that would have had a considerable impact on game development and sales.
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Jun 16, 2013 03:37
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rjmccall posted:And since each iteration is more similar than not to the last, supply chain and technology improvements from previous releases will still usually carry over to the next. Supply chain yes, but the technology improvements won't when they have to start from scratch for next year's Ouya that's rumored to be using a Tegra 4. It might be similar to a Tegra 3, but I doubt it'll be a straight plug in and go deal. EDIT: But hey, they're apparently working closely with nVidia on this, even though nVidia is developing the Shield which in some ways directly competes with the Ouya, but whatever. Rudager fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Jun 16, 2013 |
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Jun 16, 2013 04:27
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Hardware is sold at a loss because of licensing fees to release software on the platform. Microsoft is willing to lose money on the physical product because they make it up in third party games. There are no games on OUYA.
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Jun 16, 2013 04:32
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Atlas Hugged posted:Hardware is sold at a loss because of licensing fees to release software on the platform. Microsoft is willing to lose money on the physical product because they make it up in third party games. There are no games on OUYA.
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Jun 16, 2013 05:19
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It's not just game prices. The average console owner buys 5-6 games (that is an average, not a median, so it does not matter that some people buy way more than that). As I understand it, the manufacturer gets around a 10% cut (for retail sales). At $60/game, let's round up the manufacturer's total rake to $50. Microsoft lost about $125 per Xbox 360 Premium it sold at launch just on manufacturing costs alone. (I don't have estimates for other variants. Sony's per-unit losses on PS3s were much higher.) Microsoft's plan was to burn money establishing a viable platform and then bring production costs down to the point that the consoles are profitable to sell, on the assumption that a desirable platform will keep selling both consoles and games. And they did, within about two years, and have since proceeded to sell over four million consoles a year, and they continue to make a per-unit profit despite dropping the price. There are funny things in the console industry, but it's not that special of a snowflake. Given its components, the OUYA should be making plenty of per-unit profit, and it should with a Tegra 4, too; it's just that it probably won't sell enough units to cover fixed costs.
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Jun 16, 2013 05:29
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