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At least it wasn't Dirge of Cerberus
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Jun 18, 2013 06:24
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ImpAtom posted:FF8's largest problem is that it has like five too many plots going on while simultaniously having too bloated a cast. Laguna's entire thing basically has no reason to exist. Squall's entire backstory is like three degrees too convoluted for what they needed. The baffling thing is that it's ridiculously easy to fix a lot of FF8's problems and trim down the number of characters at the same time without changing any fundamental core part of the plot. I like how you said trim down the cast when there are only six main party members and only two of them recieve any development after the first disc. And Laguna's gang was awesome and the rest are barely there. Edea? Loses relevance after Disc 2. Seifer? Joke recurring boss. Fujin and Raijin? Lackeys with speech impediments. I like FF8 - I'm not going to defend the plot since it just goes downhill after the second disc, but I don't want to believe there wasn't a way to make a team of ragtag time-travelling teen mercenaries that sacrifice memories for power work - it just didn't come off as well as they'd hoped. At least FF8 always has Triple Triad.
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Jun 18, 2013 06:33
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ApplesandOranges posted:I like how you said trim down the cast when there are only six main party members and only two of them recieve any development after the first disc. Yes, that's part of the problem. Most of the party is completely unimportant to the plot, which stands in stark contrast to the games around it. Even if FF9 has Freya or whatever, it still wastes way fewer characters than FF8 does. They don't need to necessarily remove the characters but they really should make them relevant to the plot beyond "they went to the same orphanage." Laguna and his entire subplot could probably be removed from the game and it wouldn't really be noticeable, which is a shame because he's a fun character and his subplot is kind of more coherent than the main plot.
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Jun 18, 2013 06:40
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I always found XIII disappointing. It's actually really good, but you have to slog through the incredibly long tutorial to get there. Like... everything up to and including the Palamecia is essentially introduction, and depending on your pace as a player, that's potentially half the game. XIII-2 doesn't have this issue cause they assume the player knows what's going on, although they screwed the challenge in the game by opening it up too much. The story for both was kind of interesting. XIII tried to give every character a bunch of screentime, and most of that happens in that first half, which bloated that segment out. XIII-2 had a pretty small cast of characters, so it was neat to focus in on the story of just the two people, and the ending twist had me literally laughing out loud. I'm legit excited for Lightning Returns, even though it could be awful, just cause I really like the paradigm system. Seriously, regarding XIII-2's ending, everything after stabbing Caius seemed surreal, cause they'd warned that killing him would unravel time, and it happens, and I kept expecting a big boss fight with death incarnate like every FF, then they just kill Serah, and I just couldn't help but laugh like crazy at the gloriousness of one of the lightest FF games having one of the darkest endings. Eight is, to this day, the only FF that I've attempted to play and never finished. Didn't make it past the orphanage revelation before I gave up on the plot not being from a soap opera. bobtheconqueror fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Jun 18, 2013 |
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Jun 18, 2013 06:42
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ImpAtom posted:Yes, that's part of the problem. Most of the party is completely unimportant to the plot, which stands in stark contrast to the games around it. Even if FF9 has Freya or whatever, it still wastes way fewer characters than FF8 does. They don't need to necessarily remove the characters but they really should make them relevant to the plot beyond "they went to the same orphanage." what i'm saying is the party should've been squall, rinoa, and the fat, bespectacled, middle-aged cid
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Jun 18, 2013 06:49
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Final Fantasy 8 was the best because it is the only game in the series that had a dog be a party member. Also the spaceship zero gravity scene where they somehow first find the ragnarok in perfectly functioning order despite being lost in space for 16 years....and then that motherfucking majestic music plays and all is right with the world, even ultimecia's bullshit.
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Jun 18, 2013 06:50
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WendigoJohnson posted:Final Fantasy 8 was the best because it is the only game in the series that had a dog be a party member. If you want to consider a character that appears in Limit Breaks and random battle events a party member, might as well consider FF6's Interceptor as well.
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Jun 18, 2013 06:55
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bobtheconqueror posted:Seriously, regarding XIII-2's ending, everything after stabbing Caius seemed surreal, cause they'd warned that killing him would unravel time, and it happens, and I kept expecting a big boss fight with death incarnate like every FF, then they just kill Serah, and I just couldn't help but laugh like crazy at the gloriousness of one of the lightest FF games having one of the darkest endings. Yep! This is pretty much summed up why XIII-2 is the best. (Along with amazing music and the best combat in the series.)
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Jun 18, 2013 06:55
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WendigoJohnson posted:Final Fantasy 8 was the best because it is the only game in the series that had a dog be a party member. Are we just forgetting Final Fantasy 6 and Final Fantasy 7 then?
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Jun 18, 2013 06:56
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The White Dragon posted:what i'm saying is the party should've been squall, rinoa, and
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Jun 18, 2013 07:08
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WendigoJohnson posted:Final Fantasy 8 was the best because it is the only game in the series that had a dog be a party member. Finaru Fantajii VII had Red XIII, who was coincidentally the best character in that game.
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Jun 18, 2013 07:08
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ApplesandOranges posted:If you want to consider a character that appears in Limit Breaks and random battle events a party member, might as well consider FF6's Interceptor as well. He counts because I had to name him...I named him Biscuits. Azure_Horizon posted:Finaru Fantajii VII had Red XIII, who was coincidentally the best character in that game. I really though the Moombas were related to him. Then again I played FF8 first before 7 and I just knew the indian lion guy from the magazine images from the game.
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Jun 18, 2013 07:10
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Unpopular opinion contest entry: I enjoyed some aspects of Dirge of Cerberus. Not the plot, obviously, but the gun designing stuff and flipping around shooting things in midair while hovering.
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Jun 18, 2013 07:11
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ShadeofDante posted:Yep! This is pretty much summed up why XIII-2 is the best. (Along with amazing music and the best combat in the series.) A good amount of XIII-2 is pretty dark for a Final Fantasy game. Off the top of my head I think of the fragments of the mercenary who becomes more bitter as casualties pile on, and those weird red orbs that trap the consciousnesses of people. Also the Paradox ending where Serah accepts the fake Lightning's offer and the fragment for it are pretty twisted.
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Jun 18, 2013 07:16
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Don't forget the time period where monsters are flooding in from that one location so they constantly send mercenaries out there, even though their life expectancy is like 2 days
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Jun 18, 2013 07:19
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Even Twilight Odin is pretty drat unnerving. I swear when I first got close to him, I flipped out because of the ridiculous black aura that flies around him and the music vanishing. XIII-2's really weird in its tone.
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Jun 18, 2013 07:41
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I really should play FF13-2 before FF13-3 comes out, because I'm an idiot like that. Is anyone else actually really optimistic for FF15? I should know better at this point but the trailer looked great.
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Jun 18, 2013 07:42
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:Is anyone else actually really optimistic for FF15? I should know better at this point but the trailer looked great. I absolutely am, despite hating most of the company's works since the PS2.
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Jun 18, 2013 07:47
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I think the only way XV could disappoint me is by making me wish it were an actual spectacle fighter... Bayonneta already has a ridiculous story near FF levels; just add some pretentiousness and an RPG system and you're set.
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Jun 18, 2013 07:48
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FFVIII is a tragedy because I think it had a lot of potential. That's probably why it's my least favorite FF of the ones I've completed. It could have been so much more. It did a lot of things right but then fell flat with the follow through. Take Seifer for example. He's easily, for me, the best characterized and best developed member of the entire cast. The game does a good job of setting him and Squall up as rivals and all that. I actually noticed a few years ago that him and Squall even have polar opposite character development. Squall, the reluctant antisocial prick, steadily opens up and out of love becomes Rinoa's Sorceress Knight. Seifer, a far more outgoing brand of prick, had thrown himself into the role of the Sorceress' Knight but it was all just a fantasy that crashed around his ears as time goes on. Basically Squall grows and Seifer diminishes. And how does the game choose to wrap up three disks worth of putting these two against each other? One boss fight and then he's gone, never to be heard from again except during the ending which doesn't make any sense. FFVIII is often said to have one of the most memorable openings in the series and that's probably because of Liberi Fatali but you still remember Squall and Seifer dueling. You expect that to go somewhere - you expect some sort of resolution or closure between these two. But this is FFVIII and it can't deliver a satisfying conclusion to anything to save its life.
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Jun 18, 2013 07:51
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Roflan posted:I think the only way XV could disappoint me is by making me wish it were an actual spectacle fighter... Bayonneta already has a ridiculous story near FF levels; just add some pretentiousness and an RPG system and you're set. It's the Kingdom Hearts team (or it was at one point), in my mind it plays like Kingdom Hearts but hopefully a bit more modern. Some of the KH games had bits that were pretty much on the level of Bayonetta/DMC for their time. The last battle of KH2 had you running up buildings and cutting them in half and stuff. ~Anime~
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Jun 18, 2013 08:20
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:Some of the KH games had bits that were pretty much on the level of Bayonetta/DMC for their time. The last battle of KH2 had you running up buildings and cutting them in half and stuff. ~Anime~ All Kingdom Hearts 2 needed was a butt rock soundtrack and it would be Baby's First Platinum game.
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Jun 18, 2013 08:23
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As much as I'd love some buttrock, I'm totally cool with Shimomura's compositions and I'm really happy she finally gets to be in a mainline Final Fantasy game.
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Jun 18, 2013 08:34
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FFXIII-2 is one of the darkest FF games. You have to exercise some extreme mental gymnastics to think it's the lightest  I mean, the threat of ultimate destruction is there right from the beginning of the game - after it's revealed the last game's happy ending didn't happen and that Fang and Vanille's sacrifice wasn't enough! Or the city controlled by a Fal'Cie, or the insane computer thing, the red orbs, the girl who dies all the time etc etc. I'd say 5 is the lightest FF game. Sure some sacrifices are made but on the whole everything works out fine. FFX-2 is also up there, especially if you get the "best" ending. I prefer the normal, bitter-sweet one, though.
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Jun 18, 2013 09:33
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Renoistic posted:
I wouldn't say that. 4's probably lighter overall, but I only say that because the dramatic moments in 5 and the serious character moments are handled really well for SNES era FF. But that's mostly a side effect of only having to right 5 main characters instead of 20 like the other SNES FF games.
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Jun 18, 2013 09:43
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5 is a ridiculously goofy game with almost nothing in the way of serious moments, even when it's killing off characters. Hell, pretty much everyone it kills off is a "we're old men passing on to the next generation" death. I'd say it's probably the most overall light game the franchise has, at least as far as main numbered FFs go.
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Jun 18, 2013 09:45
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ImpAtom posted:5 is a ridiculously goofy game with almost nothing in the way of serious moments, even when it's killing off characters. I'd say it's probably the most overall light game the franchise has, at least as far as main numbered FFs go. I think it has a few Serious moments. Galuf's death being the one major one. I feel it handles it's serious moments a hell of a lot better than FF IV does, but that might be because I feel IV is an incoherent bland mess of writing.
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Jun 18, 2013 09:47
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:I think it has a few Serious moments. Galuf's death being the one major one. I feel it handles it's serious moments a hell of a lot better than FF IV does, but that might be because I feel IV is an incoherent bland mess of writing. Galuf dies almost identically to Tellah. v  v FFV's writing is barely there. Most of the positive feelings people have for it are from a fairly spirited (and sometimes loose) GBA translation. FFIV's no great shakes but it is miles ahead of FFV's plot which mostly serves as an excuse to introduce lots and lots of jobs. I like FFV a lot but outside of the GBA translation it barely has characters, let alone a plot. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 09:51 on Jun 18, 2013 |
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Jun 18, 2013 09:47
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ImpAtom posted:Galuf dies almost identically to Tellah. v Yeah but I like Galuf. He's a cool old dude who is simultaneously the wise man helping the younger team mates and the goofy best friend/shenanigan partner for Bartz. Tellah was an old dude who was mad at everything, I guess? I just feel like FFV hit characterization a lot better than 4 did. 4 reads like a badly acted Shakespearean play. Hell the voice acting in the DS version just exacerbates that issue. I will agree the overall plot is very simple/thin compared to 4, but I feel the GBA version of 5 did more with the little it had.
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Jun 18, 2013 09:52
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FFIV also has the problem that a character "nobly sacrifices" themselves about once an hour, and most of those sacrifices are completely idiotic, transparent excuses for "we need to make room for another character now" moments. So by the time you get to Tellah's death, you're just rolling your eyes. Meanwhile, Galuf has been there through thick and thin, in a party that has been constant since the first 10 minutes of the game. You feel his sacrifice more, which inherently makes it better done than any of the sacrifices in IV. IV is just a really clumsy attempt at storytelling, for the most part. I know it was an early attempt, but still.
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Jun 18, 2013 09:59
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:I will agree the overall plot is very simple/thin compared to 4, but I feel the GBA version of 5 did more with the little it had. Again, that is because the FF5 translation is very liberal with how it handles things. Nobody cares because the original Japanese version of FFV is one of the most incredibly dry games that I've ever seen. Nobody has a personality or a voice or really anything beyond a one-note character description that they stretched out over the entire game. Bartz is the closest and only because he's allowed to be goofy from time to time. The GBA script is frankly a miracle with how it turns that game into something readable. FFV's script is loving awful, and even in the GBA translation they can't save the fact that Leena may as well be a 2x4 with a smiley face drawn on it aside from her near-constant poisonings or that Faris basically has one plot that consists of her going "Sister?" or "Father?" every other scene. FFIV isn't great but man does FFV just not care. It's very clearly a game where the plot is a thin excuse for the gameplay. (And frankly it's better off for it because the gameplay gets to shine.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Jun 18, 2013 |
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Jun 18, 2013 10:01
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Well in FFIV the main character is involved in raiding villages not to mention what happens to Rydia's town. FFV has nothing like that, as far as I remember. Sure it has the void but everything is restored in the end.
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Jun 18, 2013 10:02
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The economy of storytelling in FF4 is pretty impressive. Virtually every (mandatory) cutscene establishes what the player should do next, why the characters want to do that, and what they all expect to accomplish thereby; defining character traits and building the world are secondary concerns, used to make future scenes more expressive. This technique of making player and character motivation discrete but aligned means that the story and characters stick with the player even when they're very shallow. It also minimizes the number of lines that are of no relevance to gameplay without minimizing the script altogether. The whole Final Fantasy series seems to do this to varying degrees - 7 went so far as to make its longer flashbacks interactive, so that the player's actions are directed in parallel with the characters' reminiscence - but 4 does it so thoroughly that it had to have been intentional even then. And 5 does it just as much, although it's more light-hearted. A lot of RPGs aren't written with anything like this level of discipline, with the result that Final Fantasy is better than most about neither leaving you with no idea what to do next, nor wasting your time with anime people's anime problems that develop without you. Even when the stories were at their most abstract and indulgent, this is still the company that cared enough to start using [colored brackets] to indicate phrases of immediate gameplay significance.
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Jun 18, 2013 10:20
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Talking of "dark" themes in these games; they were almost onto something with FF13 there. You have a society that's basically nothing but livestock for sentient machine-gods in Coccoon, and in Pulse, a civilization that was depleted to the last person by gods just not giving a poo poo about how they spent human lives in their ongoing pissing contests. Your group of main characters are branded and ostracized but forced together by mutual circumstances despite their ill feelings towards one another (veering from distrust to absolute contempt), and their story is how they learned to get along and use their circumstances to break the status quo and make things better for the world. But it was all just so bland, sterile, and even bloodless. They were telling you about these horrible things, but very rarely showing, and when they tried to show, you were too distracted by how melodramatic and overly serious it was taking itself to get any real sense of pathos. Mind you, I hate it just as much (if not more) when a game makes something pointlessly violent and grimdark because those who employ those devices typically don't know what to do with them beyond hamfisted shock value. FF13, though, was one of those things that could have genuinely benefitted by being just a slight shade more gritty and visceral.
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Jun 18, 2013 10:28
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I'm seriously glad I'm not the only one who was laughing during XIII-2's ending. My friends thought I was completely crazy when I tried to explain to them why I was laughing so much.
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Jun 18, 2013 10:39
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I honestly think FFXIII had one of the best worlds and PC casts in the series and it's a great shame they're tarred by association with the poorly-recieved game. It just had a weak actual plot and storytelling. XIII-2 is someone's OC/Serah fanfiction where the author got involved in a lot of weird DeviantArt drama at the end and ended it with a gently caress you (best plot point in the game). On the other hand it has the first good main/sequel final boss since FFIX, and the whole ending boss rush basically restored my faith in the series to be able to deliver great set pieces and gameplay.
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Jun 18, 2013 10:43
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Mazed posted:Talking of "dark" themes in these games; they were almost onto something with FF13 there. Honestly they just needed to make the characters and especially Lightning more 3D and then make Cocoon's society a bit more hosed up and they could have had a pretty good story there. Cocoon seems like an okay place to live, and the game goes on about how no it really isn't everyone's a slave to the machine-gods etc etc but it never really shows those problems or even tells you what they really are.
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Jun 18, 2013 10:48
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Maybe they could have used that whole time travelling element to explore the plot and setting of XIII, rather than just what happens afterwards. Maybe Noel could have been from a future where the main characters didn't succeed, and he and Serah need to ensure that they do. It's a better explanation than some goddess interfering because of her ~feelings~.
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Jun 18, 2013 11:46
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Alright, so I must say I haven't played every Final Fantasy game there is. But my favorites are Final Fantasy 1, 5 and Tactics Advance. Yes, the one with Marche. To be fair, I am a fan of these games mainly because they seem more rooted with D&D-esque gameplay than its own thing, like it is from six and forwards. I really want to like 4 and 6 though, I really do, they just have problems. And I keep butting my head against Kefka, dunno why.
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Jun 18, 2013 11:59
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Mordaedil posted:But my favorites are Final Fantasy 1, 5 and Tactics Advance. Tactics Advance is probably my least favorite one. The sidequests are really boring, the law system is dumb, the protagonist is unlikeable and the game completely lacks any kind of challenge, even moreso than your average FF. I think the only time I came even close to dying was somewhere close to the beginning. At least the DS sequel had some effort put in the quests and included a harder difficulty mode. FF is certainly a series that offers something for everyone, people who don't like even a single game are quite rare.
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Jun 18, 2013 12:15
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