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Fruits of the sea posted:Just picked this up on the steam sale now. Any recommendations on picking an EU pvp server? (if there is such a thing) There isn't. There's PvP, but Funcom's been struggling to find an infrastructure that works for it. It's getting yet another revamp with the next major patch, at this point I've stopped trying to follow it. There's a pretty healthy PvP community, but you won't find anyone who likes it here.
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Jun 20, 2013 10:14
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Except for Hugh, that is. Also all the servers are in the US and other than PvP (which is supposed to balance faction imbalances by merging servers into battlegroups for the PvP zones - it's not always working though) it doesn't matter what server you're on. There is no open PvP ie. no PvP servers as such.
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Jun 20, 2013 10:18
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Fruits of the sea posted:Just picked this up on the steam sale now. Any recommendations on picking an EU pvp server? (if there is such a thing) Grim was the server most goons joined, but server choice largely doesn't matter. You can do PvE with anyone, and only Fusang (the only persistent pvp area) is affected by server choice at this time. Pvp is not a fun experience for new players. Without gear and abilities unlocked your just going to get rolled constantly.
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Jun 20, 2013 10:54
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I'm on Cerberus, and Fusang is Illuminati dominated virtually all the time. The faction buff for questing and dungeons is nice at least.
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Jun 20, 2013 10:58
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HughGRect posted:Grim was the server most goons joined, but server choice largely doesn't matter. You can do PvE with anyone, and only Fusang (the only persistent pvp area) is affected by server choice at this time. PvP isn't fun until you're geared out period. Used to be you could just idle in Fusang for welfare epics and kill some Templars every other hour. Now you have to do things to get rewards and there's a really good chance that you will just get killed a bunch by a team that's geared and coordinating.
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Jun 20, 2013 10:58
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I'm ignoring PvP until they release the three-way PvP dungeon. (It was announced back when they had twice the people! I can dream!)orcane posted:Cleanup and AR DPS as well as leech healing need to be nerfed hard on grounds of basic game balance but we all know if they ever do that they won't actually change the design that mandated both CU and AR dominance in the first place, which will just make everyone miserable and content needlessly annoying. AR DPS doesn't need to be nerfed. The reason that AR stands out so much is that it was the least affected by all the nerfs in beta, and got the most out of what polish/"feel" they put into the combat system. (The camera shaking and thud sound on a penetrating/critical hit, combined with Burst attacks triggering that feedback more often and being able to trigger it several times in a second, combined with good animation/sound and the slowdown effect on Safety Off, is why AR actually feels like a good weapon while most of the others feel like ineffectual plinking.) I'd rather see the useless 80% of the wheel improve. On leech healing specifically: it is a straight upgrade from the other two healing options, but only at a very high gear level. I haven't heard a reason as to why it should be nerfed beyond "to make Fist and Blood more useful," which, again, doesn't seem like a good reason when neither of those two are as mechanically interesting. (And Leech healing is one of the most interesting mechanics in the game, see: The hundred-page threads about it.) Right now, the harder encounters like Slaughterhouse or the NY Raid tend to assume some level of Fist or Blood as a supplement (I.E. the filth waves in NY, or the electricity in Slaughterhouse), and I like that balance.
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Jun 20, 2013 11:43
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I don't really understand why AR dps would need nerfing either. Nor cleanup for that matter.  I've tried ar a few times and just ended up going back to sg/ele for ranged dps every time, except for some rare encounters like Machine Tyrant that needs the extra range. The other ranged dps trees also get some indirect dps from party skills like breaching shot, fuse and that pistol crit buff, which makes them all the more appealing.
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Jun 20, 2013 12:01
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Fewd posted:Nor cleanup for that matter. Put very short, it can do two things, and it's the best ability in the game for both of them. By far, in the case of cleansing. It's not nearly as far above the curve in purging as it is in cleansing, but the fact it's so stupidly far above everything else in the field of cleansing means that all the other purges get ignored, too, because CU is just so strong and easy and everyone had to get it anyway. EDIT: Also, the only nerf they've ever served it actually served to make people use it more. Instead of tackling the fact that it's the best cleanse and the best purge in the game simultaneously, they just made the cooldown longer. Which of course didn't make people search for alternatives (that they wouldn't anyway because it's the only cleanse capable of covering the one thing people ask for cleanses for), instead it made teams ask for even more members to carry it. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 12:18 on Jun 20, 2013 |
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Jun 20, 2013 12:15
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In terms of design theory, nerfing the one that stands out is usually the safer bet than buffing the 80% that are not working as well, even though technically it achieves the same thing and is more fun to players. Fact is, rebalancing the vast majority of useless or underpowered abilities is a huge task and if rebalancing one weapon downwards is too much for Funcom, rebalancing five or six times as many abilities upwards is even less realistic. That's basically the only reason I'm against messing with AR and also Cleanup, but I realize "they probably can't do it" is not really a good reason to keep the status quo. Leech healing is similar. I know people love it and I totally understand why but there's a reason games with holy trinities don't give healers the tools to massively contribute in damage and healing at the same time. That fist still has a niche doesn't really change anything, not adding what, half a damage dealer's DPS and 100% healing is clearly sub-optimal in the content where it matters. Basically why I'm saying they need a nerf is because AR combines mechanics and performance in one package that beats everything else in most situations. If performance was nerfed to be in line with other DPS and healing options, players who like the mechanics can still pick AR. I'm not saying nerf it to the ground to stop it being used, but in a balance utopia it should be equally viable and no longer be the default once you filled specific buff and niche healing requirements.
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Jun 20, 2013 12:25
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Blood healing is what's really in need of attention. It can't stand up to fist or assault rifle at all. Outside of Slaughterhouse or abusing Cold Blooded to pull aggro, it's well below par for anything other than supplementing a poorly geared fist healer. And pistol does a better job of that, anyway. It's probably worth mentioning that Joel has said that they've intended to rebalance most of the wheel since beta. I haven't seen him say that that's off the table. Whether it will happen any time soon is another matter. Hopefully the devs start to speed up, now that they're settled in their new digs. Frankenstein Dad fucked around with this message at 13:05 on Jun 20, 2013 |
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Jun 20, 2013 13:01
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Yeah I'd like that to be useful as well. You can kinda make it work but a bloodline healing build is basically a worse AR healer - you need targets, you do a little DPS, you actually use an AR quite a lot and the blood barriers are in a secondary role. Although it's interesting to play, actually.Fewd posted:I don't really understand why AR dps would need nerfing either. Nor cleanup for that matter. Regarding the other ranged weapons, yeah they're also good, and I'm not saying AR DPS needs a huge nerf, just small adjustments. But you do get more out of this weapon than other ranged ones in general. At a lower gear level the burst abilities on AR mean better chances to proc something (which is in itself completely dumb, the game should work with a ppm system, not proc-per-attack for stacking buffs and proc-per-hit for other things), you get to use Ferocity that's otherwise restricted to melee, and you're still free to bring a secondary weapon for buffs.
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Jun 20, 2013 13:20
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Cleretic posted:Put very short, it can do two things, and it's the best ability in the game for both of them. By far, in the case of cleansing. In this case I'd much rather see them make the pistol cleanses nonshitty rather than start nerfing cleanups. Good start would be taking Bond, Strong Bond and lose the cast time, resource requirement and increase the radius by roughly 1000%. Of course increase the cooldown accordingly. Losing purge from it wouldn't be a completely huge deal since for strict purging business, elemental is already much better. Although it would make purging more elemental exclusive which is kind of terrible design with as many skill trees as we have. Might be wrong there but I can't remember other reliable purges in the other trees. When did they make the cooldown longer by the way? I can't quite remember what it was when I last played, thought it was the same 60 secs as now? Frankenstein Dad posted:It's probably worth mentioning that Joel has said that they've intended to rebalance most of the wheel since beta. I haven't seen him say that that's off the table. Whether it will happen any time soon is another matter. Hopefully the devs start to speed up, now that they're settled in their new digs. Probably queued right after AO rebalance. Holding breaths is ill-adviced. 
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Jun 20, 2013 13:27
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If they nerf Cleanup (again) and don't make anything else better probably everyone will just stop running Hell Raised, or at least the last boss of it. Including me. I have most of what I'd want to buy with bullion, I don't need that kind of headache.
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Jun 20, 2013 13:30
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HughGRect posted:Pvp is not a fun experience for new players. Without gear and abilities unlocked your just going to get rolled constantly. Isn't that all mmo's? It's not a big deal in any case. TSW's setting and pve seems like the big draw. The competitive part of me just can't resist mmo pvp, god knows why. Zephonith posted:I'm on Cerberus, and Fusang is Illuminati dominated virtually all the time. The faction buff for questing and dungeons is nice at least. I was planning on rolling an illuminati character anyways, so thanks for the tip 
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Jun 20, 2013 13:33
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orcane posted:there's a reason games with holy trinities don't give healers the tools to massively contribute in damage and healing at the same time. Because they don't want healing to be incredibly fun? I'd take "they probably can't do it" as a very good reason to keep the status quo, but we'll see how it goes. The signet rebalance looks like it'll improve quite a few of the "worthless" ones, and the Burst nerf looks mild enough to be reasonable.
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Jun 20, 2013 13:37
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Cheston posted:Because they don't want healing to be incredibly fun? Historically, better balanced MMOs made DPS-style healing a non-competitive solo option or kept DPS mechanics but with low actual damage so healers weren't brought for their DPS. People who prefer pure healing exist even in TSW but you could alienate them by design and just make all healing options mini-DPS. And yeah what I meant with "not a good reason" is that devs shouldn't ignore bad parts because they could do even worse. If they are actually bad or incapable of rebalancing the game without wrecking everything, I take the status quo too. orcane fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Jun 20, 2013 |
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Jun 20, 2013 14:05
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Frankenstein Dad posted:Blood healing is what's really in need of attention. It can't stand up to fist or assault rifle at all. Outside of Slaughterhouse or abusing Cold Blooded to pull aggro, it's well below par for anything other than supplementing a poorly geared fist healer. And pistol does a better job of that, anyway. I agree completely. I've tried to set up a nice blood build on several occasions and I just prefer to use Pistol (or Shotgun, if it's needed for a dungeon) along with Fist. Also, a couple of leeches in Pistol would be nice. I like leech healing now that I've started doing it, but you are locked into a couple of set AR abilities.
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Jun 20, 2013 14:47
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Fewd posted:In this case I'd much rather see them make the pistol cleanses nonshitty rather than start nerfing cleanups. Good start would be taking Bond, Strong Bond and lose the cast time, resource requirement and increase the radius by roughly 1000%. Of course increase the cooldown accordingly. Yeah, I'd prefer cleanses for other weapons, Pistol especially, to get buffed over nerfing Clean Up. In part because I run Pistols/Ele by default, so I'd turn from 'chopped liver' to 'hot poo poo' overnight. But as anyone who's done Polaris since the Win-Win buff can attest, that won't work; some people will notice that there's a better alternative that doesn't require someone to change their elite active and probably their weapon, but the majority of people simply will refuse to change from Clean Up unless other abilities are appreciably better. I remember when throwing around ideas for a real CU nerf, I suggested just straight-up cutting out the purging option. Like you said there are better options anyway, and purging isn't really what we need from CU when it's asked for. And yeah, they increased the cooldown for Clean Up and Do or Die in the same patch. Clean Up went from 50 seconds to a minute, and Do or Die went from I think 40 to a minute. There were a lot of changes to abilities in that patch, really popular ones getting dialed down while others got taken up a notch, and for the most part it was a good patch that knocked ubiquitous abilities like Live Wire and Empowerment off their pedestals. The CU and Do or Die nerfs did not have that effect, and in fact CU arguably got more popular, because the reason they were so common was not because they were just slightly too fast. EDIT: I just checked to see what the purging options actually are, and it is actually pretty much either CU or Elementalism. Cleansing has almost the exact same problem, though, with your choices being 'get an underpowered one from Pistol', 'get the only good one from Shotgun', or 'get one weird out of place one from Blood'. Maybe there do need to be some more choices, I'll grant that. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Jun 20, 2013 |
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Jun 20, 2013 15:01
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guppy posted:If they nerf Cleanup (again) and don't make anything else better probably everyone will just stop running Hell Raised, or at least the last boss of it. Including me. I have most of what I'd want to buy with bullion, I don't need that kind of headache. Agreed. I'm sitting at 1200 billion right now so if Funcom makes 18s even more of a hassle than it already is I'm not going to even bother signing in until Issue 8.
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Jun 20, 2013 15:24
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HughGRect posted:Pvp is not a fun experience for new players. Without gear and abilities unlocked your just going to get rolled constantly. To be fair, that's pretty much the norm for any MMO PvP.
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Jun 20, 2013 15:58
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guppy posted:If they nerf Cleanup (again) and don't make anything else better probably everyone will just stop running Hell Raised, or at least the last boss of it. Including me. I have most of what I'd want to buy with bullion, I don't need that kind of headache. The game is in dire need of a bit of a redistribution of certain effects in general. Purging is mostly concentrated on elementalism but you can purge with magnetic variance (although it's not terribly reliable) with everything. Exposed is on all tank weapons now. I guess that's a start but other critical effects like cleanses and the major hit buff are restricted to very few (usable) abilities, it's stupid. orcane fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Jun 20, 2013 |
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Jun 20, 2013 16:05
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orcane posted:In terms of design theory, nerfing the one that stands out is usually the safer bet than buffing the 80% that are not working as well While this is true, the other 80% of the cleanses are just garbage; it isn't just that CU is so much better than the rest, CU is the largely the only usable one compared to all of the rest. Purges are in a better places than cleanses, though this is not due to the skills that actually perform the function, its because there are no obnoxious mechanics to purge similar to lifeburn. After coming from GW1 I am almost always in favor of nerfing a small number of outlyers rather than trying to buff skills (a skill nerf is effectively a buff to every other skill), but this is just not one of those cases as there is no replacement for CU. The problem really lies in the MT fight itself. There are plenty of ways to make the lifeburn part of it far more interesting mechanically, while also giving the players ways to deal with it other than just stacking cleanses. Such as having MT alternate between Molten Metal and an Arcane Halo that stacks lifeburn. Frankenstein Dad posted:Blood healing is what's really in need of attention. It can't stand up to fist or assault rifle at all. Outside of Slaughterhouse or abusing Cold Blooded to pull aggro, it's well below par for anything other than supplementing a poorly geared fist healer. And pistol does a better job of that, anyway. This exactly. Mathematically blood is designed to mitigate the same amount of damage as fist healing, the barrier + healing portion of blood is in line with the heal + HoT portion of fist. However the barrier must be applied before damage, while the heal must be applied after damage. For DPS this means blood is strictly less effective than fist, as using blood before a DPS takes damage will lose the healing portion and using blood after a DPS takes damage means losing the barrier portion (making pushing the bars back up take longer). It wouldn't be as bad on the tank that regularly takes damage, but blood shields don't stack with themselves, which means using multiple builders on the tank will lose the barrier portion of the effect on any fight where the tank isn't being constantly hit, which is most fights. Kind of unfortunate because Exquisite Corpse is a loving fantastic skill that is just stuck in a lovely weapon tree. But that isn't all of the problems. Finish the Movement is highly likely to be a super loving overpowered passive with blood. It isn't that great for the pistol/sword focus skills, but since blood consumers use specific numbers of resource points, FtM can let blood just churn out so many extra consumers. I've seen both very high DPS bloodshot spam builds as well as bloodshot healing with exquisite corpse every other cast. And then there is the aggro mechanic of shields that just makes no sense. For some reason healing seems to be 1/2 the aggro of damage, the leech portion of healing is even less than that, and neither proc any aggro on overheal, while shields always get full aggro and seem to have 1.5X the aggro of damage (x3 the aggro of healing). orcane posted:Actually, because one "class" that is mini-DPS and a full healer and another that can only heal really well requires niches for the pure healers or their preferred gameplay becomes non-viable in challenging content. This is something that they are just going to have to deal with in some shape form or fashion. As soon as leech healing is sufficient to keep the party alive, then leech healing is superior to fist/blood because the leecher is doing some damage as opposed to none. That isn't even considering that at high gear levels a leech healer's damage approaches a DPS's damage. I know that Rhan and I started looking around for what other things a fist/blood healer can do besides just heal, but had a hard time actually coming up with anything particularly useful. They can apply debilitate with the fist blast attack. They can bring impairs instead of the tank, cleanses/purges, finalfuse, but ultimately the best direction we could see a fist/blood healer going is in a direction towards healtanking. Healtank + 4DPS looks better than Tank + 3DPS + healer, but is far inferior to Tank + 3DPS + leech. And even if leech got a massive nerf, I'd still imagine Tank + 2DPS + 2Leech to still be better than healtank + 4DPS. It also really doesn't help that fist/blood are just completely saturated with their stats (in high DR for the only stats that matter to their function, crit, crit power, HR) while AR is not at all saturated, still getting large benefits from all of its stats that are either not in DR or not in high levels of DR.
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Jun 20, 2013 16:11
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The corect solution to the Machine Tyrant design is to add another ground particle area that moves about that remove lifeburn when you stand in it. Then double lifeburn's damage. Have Joel send me a check.
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Jun 20, 2013 16:30
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You could give that function to the anima "well" so people have to clear their stacks before MT is dragged over it and cleaves everything (or wait for the next one to spawn). At least it would be hilarious to watch but people would probably rather bring CU than that  Reverend Dr posted:While this is true, the other 80% of the cleanses are just garbage; it isn't just that CU is so much better than the rest, CU is the largely the only usable one compared to all of the rest. [...] That aggro oddity with shields would explain a few aggro mishaps I've experienced in elites recently. orcane fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Jun 20, 2013 |
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Jun 20, 2013 16:45
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orcane posted:That aggro oddity with shields would explain a few aggro mishaps I've experienced in elites recently. Its great that so many times the best moment to cast Cold Blooded for its effect is oftentimes the worst moment to cast it because of the aggro. orcane posted:You could give that function to the anima "well" so people have to clear their stacks before MT is dragged over it and cleaves everything (or wait for the next one to spawn). At least it would be hilarious to watch but people would probably rather bring CU than that Have MT stack lifeburn whenever it gets to a well, but also have lifeburn automatically fall off whenever the shield goes back up. So drat many ways to design the fight that don't involve the current lovely lifeburn mechanic. Or have lifeburn only do damage while moving (or while standing still). Or have lifeburn stacks last twice as long, but only half as many stacks applied. Or have lifeburn automatically end on a dodge (roll on the ground). Or have lifeburn be very short (like 5 seconds) and automatically reapply itself when you use a skill. Or gently caress lifeburn entirely, remove the KD effect from the seekers, have the seekers do ~1500 damage, and triple the number of seekers (had MT once triple the number of seekers and it was pretty fun for the first part of the fight). Reverend Dr fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Jun 20, 2013 |
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Jun 20, 2013 16:48
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Toshimo posted:The corect solution to the Machine Tyrant design is to add another ground particle area that moves about that remove lifeburn when you stand in it. Then double lifeburn's damage. Have Joel send me a check. Oh god don't give him any loving ideas 
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Jun 20, 2013 17:17
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Toshimo posted:The corect solution to the Machine Tyrant design is to add another ground particle area that moves about that remove lifeburn when you stand in it. Then double lifeburn's damage. Have Joel send me a check. Not enough adds. Factor adds in somehow and you have my support.
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Jun 20, 2013 17:26
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Len posted:Not enough adds. Factor adds in somehow and you have my support. The best adds for this fight would be the slurs in the Lair Raid, yeah the ones that hit you if you move.
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Jun 20, 2013 17:32
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I would accept an entire boss or missions involving those, because those things are pretty rad.
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Jun 20, 2013 23:07
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So I may have bought another TSW account just to post on the forums. Let's see how this goes.
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Jun 21, 2013 00:03
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You know, maybe I'm not looking enough, but are there ANY hinders before elite abilities? It just seems kind of stupid when one of the passives it gives for starting pistols relies on something you can't do. Edit VVVV I think it's worse that none show up till AFTER you get abilities that rely on them, making the passives totally useless and the actives less attractive then they should be. Seriously, what the hell are they thinking? Fantastic Alice fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Jun 21, 2013 |
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Jun 21, 2013 00:40
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I think its stupid that there are so many actives and passives that rely on hinder/impair when its something that lasts 1/4 of a second, you shouldn't do, and if you did do it can wipe the party.
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Jun 21, 2013 00:52
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Hey Cheston. Some of us on the forums think we have found a bug where the Whisper of Darkness damage in the raid is no longer being reduced by debilitate, physical protection, or major ward. This might explain a few things about the raids this last month, because even at our worst, Rhan and I are doing better swapping than some of the smooth and successful (aside from the tank swap) runs Plat and I did a few months prior.
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Jun 21, 2013 01:31
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Reverend Dr posted:Hey Cheston. Some of us on the forums think we have found a bug where the Whisper of Darkness damage in the raid is no longer being reduced by debilitate, physical protection, or major ward. This might explain a few things about the raids this last month, because even at our worst, Rhan and I are doing better swapping than some of the smooth and successful (aside from the tank swap) runs Plat and I did a few months prior. Whisper of Darkness was never affected by Debilitate. Probably not by Major Ward either. It should be affected by Physical Protection and I have some old parses that clearly show that it was at one point.
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Jun 21, 2013 01:41
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Cleretic posted:There were a lot of changes to abilities in that patch, really popular ones getting dialed down while others got taken up a notch, and for the most part it was a good patch that knocked ubiquitous abilities like Live Wire and Empowerment off their pedestals. The CU and Do or Die nerfs did not have that effect, and in fact CU arguably got more popular, because the reason they were so common was not because they were just slightly too fast. yes but the problem with those two changes, is that they're virtually worthless now. Empowerment is still semi-useful I suppose, but Live Wire parses at about 1% more damage than One In The Chamber. So now we have an elite ability doing 1% more than a non-elite. And there are DOZENS of elites that no one ever uses because they're absolute crap. The answer isn't to nerf more abilities. We've seen it time and time again that Funcom can't nerf properly. Slaughterhouse elite giving too much XP? Don't nerf the xp drop, no make it so hard that it's impossible in full blues. Hope you can find some friendly purples to help you complete it, otherwise you're never getting into nightmares. Everyone using LiveWire because Fluid Defense is bugged, well nerf Live Wire so that it's worthless and fix Fluid Defense so now that's all anyone uses. They really need to stop nerfing things, and fixing the abilities that no one uses. They don't need to fix all 80% of broken abilities all at once. Fix one or 2 elites a patch and see if people start using them. Because nerfing never hurts us at the top, it's all the new players, and just makes everything more frustrating for them. As RevDr mentioned, there are SO many abilities that would be great and used all the time if they weren't all on "on an impaired target" or "every time you apply hinder" ect. Make some interesting abilities. So instead of "every time you hit and impaired target you do an extra hit for 782 dmg," make it "every time you both crit and pen your target" Make Defensive Turret also cleanse or purge, so that players have reason to use that ability. There are just so many lovely abilities that no one uses, I'd love to be able to run more unique builds. I really wish running dungeons in this game was more like soloing, where almost anything was viable; instead of the same cookie cutter builds.
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Jun 21, 2013 01:49
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Toshimo posted:Whisper of Darkness was never affected by Debilitate. Probably not by Major Ward either. It should be affected by Physical Protection and I have some old parses that clearly show that it was at one point. I remember this as well. Rev, let's compare you and Rhan's Phys protection before the next raid and see how it goes. We kept changing because the effect seemed to vary, so.... mystery?
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Jun 21, 2013 02:02
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Toshimo posted:Whisper of Darkness was never affected by Debilitate. Probably not by Major Ward either. It should be affected by Physical Protection and I have some old parses that clearly show that it was at one point. There are plenty of parses that show that it was affected by debilitate at one point. Cheston posted:I remember this as well. Rev, let's compare you and Rhan's Phys protection before the next raid and see how it goes. We kept changing because the effect seemed to vary, so.... mystery? While there aren't many runs involved, it sure as hell doesn't look like any of the tank stats actually mitigate damage on the lurker at all. DPS tanking has always been the only way. At least I get to slot crit and crit power now. Reverend Dr fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Jun 21, 2013 |
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Jun 21, 2013 02:02
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Rasmussen posted:If you're super interested in the deck costumes, just be aware that in game some don't look quite like their artwork. Here's a link to show them all in game: This is not actually true anymore. At least for the female dragon outfits I know all of them match the art now. More or less, since you can't wear Chaos Theorist shades with the outfit for some reason.
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Jun 21, 2013 08:56
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orcane posted:Leech healing is similar. I know people love it and I totally understand why but there's a reason games with holy trinities don't give healers the tools to massively contribute in damage and healing at the same time. Rift chloromancers (ok ok you do a third-half the damage of yourself in a DPS role but still)
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Jun 21, 2013 09:36
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That's about what you can do as a leech healer in TSW. But yeah, gently caress the holy trinity. DYNAMISM!
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Jun 21, 2013 10:18
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