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The shuttle chase scene was used for character development ...
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Jun 20, 2013 10:14
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Even a few weeks later I prefer this movie to the first one. I don't quite get how people who were mad the first one wasn't a hamfisted morality tale for the masses liked it more than Into Darkness. But then again I liked the episode where Kirk reads the Constitution to space Americans and Soviets who worship it. It's just entertaining I guess.
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Jun 22, 2013 23:53
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Cingulate posted:The shuttle chase scene was used for character development ... No. Character development only happens in dialogue scenes, especially if they involve crying or yelling. Ideally the development is narrated by the characters as it happens.
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Jun 22, 2013 23:56
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Cingulate posted:The shuttle chase scene was used for character development ... Such wonderful character development too! I sure liked knowing that Spock needed his girlfriend's permission to heroically sacrifice himself for others. Cause that's what women are like amirightfellas? 
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Jun 23, 2013 16:07
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I don't understand what that complaint is.
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Jun 23, 2013 19:30
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Johnnie5 posted:Such wonderful character development too! I sure liked knowing that Spock needed his girlfriend's permission to heroically sacrifice himself for others. Cause that's what women are like amirightfellas?
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Jun 23, 2013 19:32
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Cingulate posted:You may argue that it was bad character development, or, it seems in this case, character development you somehow didn't like. By arguing that you're however agreeing to the presupposition that it's character development. I didn't deny that it was. I was just taking the opportunity to complain about how stupid that scene was and the disgusting sexism on display. Sorry if it came out wrong.
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Jun 23, 2013 20:01
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I actually remember it differently from you. The way I remember it, the movie displays Uhura's concerns and emotions as completely understandable, sensible, and Spock as emotionally immature. I remember it as an inverse of the "bitchy girlfriend wants to talk about stupid, irrelevant 'emotions' stuff while the boys got serious poo poo to do" thing.
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Jun 23, 2013 20:04
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Cingulate posted:I actually remember it differently from you. The way I remember it, the movie displays Uhura's concerns and emotions as completely understandable, sensible, and Spock as emotionally immature. I remember it as an inverse of the "bitchy girlfriend wants to talk about stupid, irrelevant 'emotions' stuff while the boys got serious poo poo to do" thing. Yeah, I don't think it's completely unreasonable to be angry that your SO decides to effectively kill himself for a reasonably pointless cause without even talking to you about it until five minutes before he does it.
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Jun 23, 2013 20:07
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Johnnie5 posted:Such wonderful character development too! I sure liked knowing that Spock needed his girlfriend's permission to heroically sacrifice himself for others. Cause that's what women are like amirightfellas?
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Jun 23, 2013 20:07
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computer parts posted:Yeah, I don't think it's completely unreasonable to be angry that your SO decides to effectively kill himself for a reasonably pointless cause without even talking to you about it until five minutes before he does it. Yeah I would say she's the voice of reason there. Sacrificing yourself in a macho display of your toughness and self-destructiveness is dumb and egotistical. You need some very good reasons to make that the right decision.
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Jun 23, 2013 20:09
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Johnnie5 posted:I didn't deny that it was. I was just taking the opportunity to complain about how stupid that scene was and the disgusting sexism on display. Sorry if it came out wrong. What's it called when Kirk loudly complains how stubborn Spock is? Is it okay because Kirk is a man?
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Jun 23, 2013 20:31
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DeimosRising posted:Yeah I would say she's the voice of reason there. Sacrificing yourself in a macho display of your toughness and self-destructiveness is dumb and egotistical. You need some very good reasons to make that the right decision. What about rescuing a civilization from destruction? I did get sexist vibes from the scene - Uhura seemed moved into silence by Spock's talk and she didn't really have anything further to do in the film regarding that arc - it was all Spock's, she was just there to bear out the monologue.
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Jun 23, 2013 20:53
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But Spock had to acknowledge that she was right, and it wasn't played like a concession to an irrational womanchild, but as him having to face something he had been hiding from. I don't fully remember the scene anymore, I mentally tune out during car chases, but I didn't get any sexist vibe from it. As HUNDU said, Kirk's on her side, because she's clearly RIGHT.
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Jun 23, 2013 21:22
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Cingulate posted:But Spock had to acknowledge that she was right, and it wasn't played like a concession to an irrational womanchild, but as him having to face something he had been hiding from. His response to "Why are you being so emotionally distant and selfish?" is "You remember my planet blew up, right? It's possible that I'm not exactly over the genocide of my people and that this isn't about you". And then Uhura realises she's wrong and I don't think they talk about their feelings again in the film. Spock's emotional resolution in the film has nothing to do with Uhura. It isn't overtly sexist the way Alice Eve's exploitation in the film is, but in starting with 'Uhura's relationship with Spock is important' and then forgetting that point the film marginalises her. Hell, in the endgame Spock attempts to commit suicide alone again by ordering everyone off the Enterprise while he stays on board, the only difference is that rather than try to dissuade him everyone agrees that his is the best course of action and joins him.
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Jun 23, 2013 21:32
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Okay, again, I don't remember it fully anymore. But what I took from it was that the scene said Spock is emotionally closed off to an unhealthy degree, and it was about Uhura getting him to talk about himself. A classically "masculine" thing is never admitting to any other negative feelings than anger, never showing weakness, and Spock does it to an extreme degree, and Uhura got him to talk about himself with her, as grown-ups do. I'm not disagreeing with your 2nd paragraphs though.
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Jun 23, 2013 21:47
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Uhura's relationship with Spock is important isn't the same thing as "the film marginalizes her". Kirk's relationship with Spock is important and is as emotionally charged yet the film doesn't marginalize him.
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Jun 23, 2013 22:17
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Uhura's relationship with Spock is important isn't the same thing as "the film marginalizes her". Kirk's relationship with Spock is important and is as emotionally charged yet the film doesn't marginalize him. Alchenar said that she's marginalized in that her relationship with Spock is set up as important and then left aside. She's pretty much just used as a means to develop her male counterparts - a classic Sexist Way To Write.
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Jun 24, 2013 00:48
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If the complaint is that none of the female characters have an arc/develop... I'd agree! But if the claim is that it's sexist to portray a male character overcoming a stereotypically male fault... I'd disagree.
No Wave fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Jun 24, 2013 |
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Jun 24, 2013 01:22
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Space Hamlet posted:Alchenar said that she's marginalized in that her relationship with Spock is set up as important and then left aside. She's pretty much just used as a means to develop her male counterparts - a classic Sexist Way To Write. Yes, but I'm saying it's unhelpful to conflate the two.
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Jun 24, 2013 01:25
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No Wave posted:If the complaint is that none of the female characters have an arc/develop... I'd agree! But if the claim is that it's sexist to portray a male character overcoming a stereotypically male fault... I'd disagree. Cool, because the former is the complaint. Spock's motivation in that scene got brought up to point out the way Uhura is used as a tool to draw it out, rather than as a character who contributes meaningfully to the drama.
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Jun 24, 2013 02:44
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I know it's super late to be posting reactions to this movie, but I only got to see it when my Star Trek-loving father wanted to see it with his family for Father's Day. (It's been over a month, we're not still doing spoilers are we?) I am not a Star Trek fan. Haven't sat through a single episode- though I did see part of WoK. I liked the 09 movie well enough, thought it was a good film with some cheese. I didn't like this movie so much, because it had a lot more cheese, and it was the bad kind of cheese. Like, what was the point of the Admiral's daughter character other than the scene where she's in lingerie? That moment where she tries to defy her father and save the Enterprise ends up being negated a second later, and her suspicion about the torpedos was something the other characters developed separately. I couldn't help but agree with Spock's assessment that she was completely redundant with him on board. And even though I'm not a Star Trek fan, I did recognize some of the callbacks, probably because they were forced as hell. Okay, Kirk's dying, this is obviously a "clever" reversal of WoK, but the actors are selling it as an emotional moment. Then Spock yells KHAAAAAAAAAN and I'm completely taken out of the movie. I don't want to start yet another race derail so I'll skip over my feelings on that, but I totally didn't get the feeling that Khan was such a horrifying villain. Yes, that moment where he crushed Robocop's head was sickening. However, I couldn't get past the fact that it was in fact Kirk who first betrayed Khan. It really looked like the movie was going to say "gently caress the other universe, we're doing this our way" and maybe keep Khan around as Kirk's frienemy. That made the forced heel turn feel all the less organic to me. I liked Man of Steel, so I'm certainly not the kind of person who gets a headache from a fast-paced movie with lots of CGI. But there were definitely times where things started to blur for me in this. It's hard to pinpoint why exactly I didn't like the action so much in this movie- I didn't feel the same way about the last one. Perhaps it's because I felt like the 09 film had a kind of grander scale to it, more like an epic space romp than this film's Politics Gone Wrong tale. Or maybe I'm predisposed to dislike the action because other parts of the film didn't work for me, I don't know. Meh, maybe I would have liked it more if I was a Trekkie and it tickled my nostalgia bone.
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Jun 24, 2013 03:06
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EgoEgress posted:Like, what was the point of the Admiral's daughter character other than the scene where she's in lingerie? Even months later, I'm amazed people still keep pointing this out. Was that 3 second shot really that distinctive a moment?
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Jun 24, 2013 03:43
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It stuck out (to me anyway), because it was so utterly pointless and unnecessary, and reflected how her character was so utterly pointless and unnecessary. I know it's useless trying to keep track of sexy-for-the-sake-of-it bits in media, but yeah, those kind of things stick out in my mind because they bother me. Does that make me the real sexist?
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Jun 24, 2013 03:51
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EgoEgress posted:It stuck out (to me anyway), because it was so utterly pointless and unnecessary, and reflected how her character was so utterly pointless and unnecessary. I know it's useless trying to keep track of sexy-for-the-sake-of-it bits in media, but yeah, those kind of things stick out in my mind because they bother me. Does that make me the real sexist? No. But you must admit it's just an odd thing that a lot of people are fixating on. Especially as Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future was hugely into free sexuality and everyone was sexually uninhibited. It was only editors and suits that kept him from going as far as he could. He probably would've had Kirk and Spock legit having sex at some point if he could.
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Jun 24, 2013 04:04
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It's not odd at all, the character is out of place to the point that other characters comment on it, and then she has a moment that is out of place in the movie both tonally and in content. It's not weird for people to remember that moment as being notably out of place. What's odd is bringing up Gene Roddenberry's intentions as relevant to viewers' experiences of this movie.
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Jun 24, 2013 06:33
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I do recall reading something about Roddenberry wanting to introduce a gay character on TNG, but he died before he could make that happen and of course Berman and Braga were all "What, are they going to wear pink triangles on their uniforms?" I get the complaints about Carol Marcus not having an obvious purpose and the underwear shot was gratuitous (though I can really only agree with this academically), but I did like her. I think she had a good dynamic with both Kirk and McCoy, and her arc with her father played into the whole bit with Kirk having Pike as a surrogate father figure who was less corrupt but not by that much. And I think Alice Eve did a nice job. Hopefully they are setting her up to be a presence in ST3.
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Jun 24, 2013 06:46
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In terms of being on screen in only undies, there's that Orionianianian from the first movie whose onscreen time is pretty much entirely that (though iirc the implication was Kirk was seducing her for access to the Kobayashi Maru programming, but I don't remember why I thought that), and I believe Uhura was changing her clothes in the same scene? And then there's the catgirls. So it's not like that one particular scene is without precedent, or even remarkable in terms of how much it's being focused on. Carol Marcus actually does a pretty big thing for the film, at least in terms of hammering home the theme: Family--with all the stuff about the crew being family, Khan's people being family, she rejects her biological family for the crew. In terms of plot: 1) Weapons specialist--someone who actually knows about Section 31 weapons systems though not these specific missiles. 2) Her showing up on the shuttle is actually one of the hints that something's not right about Kirk's mission. 3) Villains demonstrating villainy. One when the Admiral beams her out of the Enterprise so he could blow it to smithereens, then again when Khan kicks her out of his way.
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Jun 24, 2013 14:14
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api call girl posted:In terms of being on screen in only undies, there's that Orionianianian from the first movie whose onscreen time is pretty much entirely that (though iirc the implication was Kirk was seducing her for access to the Kobayashi Maru programming, but I don't remember why I thought that), and I believe Uhura was changing her clothes in the same scene? And then there's the catgirls. So it's not like that one particular scene is without precedent, or even remarkable in terms of how much it's being focused on. It was in a deleted scene, which may be what you're recalling.
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Jun 24, 2013 14:25
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Arglebargle III posted:It's not odd at all, the character is out of place to the point that other characters comment on it, and then she has a moment that is out of place in the movie both tonally and in content. It's not weird for people to remember that moment as being notably out of place. I am more amused by people who are up in arms in a "girl in bra, not my Trek" fashion. It's like they never watched the original series which gratuitously featured women in revealing outfits all the time. The moment in this movie wasn't even out of place tonally as you said. It was meant as a funny gag using an attractive woman. Not a whole hell of a lot different than the cat girls from earlier in the same film, or the Orion girl from the first movie (in a scene where Uhura also loses her top). It seems that people have really short memories when they get outraged over dumb poo poo.
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Jun 24, 2013 16:06
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DFu4ever posted:I am more amused by people who are up in arms in a "girl in bra, not my Trek" fashion. It's like they never watched the original series which gratuitously featured women in revealing outfits all the time. Ok so I don't think anyone's said "not my Trek", we're just saying it's exploitative. It also doesn't work in the film like other scenes. The pacing is terrible - Carol leads Kirk to the shuttle and takes off her clothes. The next scene is Kirk on the bridge and now Carol and McCoy are getting off the shuttle. The only possible conclusion the viewer can draw is that Carol didn't actually need to change in front of Kirk and that the only reason Kirk has to even be there is because 'lol Kirk's a letch'. The bedroom scene in the 2009 film works because there's a point to it - it shows Kirk as emotionally shallow and although in editing a scene was lost that makes this explicit, he's being manipulative with the aim of cheating on the Maru test. The cat girl scene in Darkness has an actual point because it establishes Kirk at the height of self-confidence at the start of the film, which matters because the rest of the film is going to be spent trying to hammer at that confidence again and again. Alice Eve in a bra scene exists purely to have Alice Eve in a bra. e: \/\/ I think she (and everyone else) acts really well. Like the Red Letter Media guys I think there's clearly an enormous amount of talent throughout all aspects of Into Darkness and they're all just let down by a terrible story. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Jun 24, 2013 |
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Jun 24, 2013 16:22
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I didn't feel outrage at the Alice Eve scene, just embarassment on behalf of everyone involved in creating it.
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Jun 24, 2013 16:26
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So we've stopped talking about the movie's racist, and are instead talking about how it's sexist. Or rather, I think we're discussing the degree to which it is either, since likely nobody would argue the underwear scene is not gratuitous or the missed chance of a non-white actor in a main role being at least somewhat of a bummer. Box Office Mojo says the movie's at $430,011,000, evenly split between the US and the rest of the world. Any ideas what this implies for the sequel? Supercar Gautier posted:I didn't feel outrage at the Alice Eve scene, just embarassment on behalf of everyone involved in creating it.
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Jun 24, 2013 16:42
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There is a point to the scene--it further displays Kirk's lechery and shows that Marcus is unfazed and even a bit amused by it. It is an awkward moment of blatant male gaze, but it's not pointless, and I suspect the dynamic it helps establish will be an important part of the characters' relationship in later films.
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Jun 24, 2013 21:30
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They will bang. That will be the extent of the relationship. It all leads to banging in the end. Perhaps as the series began with Kirk's birth, it will end with lil' Kirk's birth if the series goes on long enough.
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Jun 24, 2013 21:36
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The gag is that the majestic wonders of space are like a woman's body to Kirk.
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Jun 24, 2013 21:40
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:The gag is that the majestic wonders of space are like a woman's body to Kirk. So basically the universe is a woman, Kirk is the man, and the Enterprise is his penis and he's rockin' it when he sends it to Warp every time. Got it. EDIT: Then what is Scotty for when Kirk demands power/warp speed/miracle? Scotty delivers each time? Is he will?
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Jun 24, 2013 21:42
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Gatts posted:So basically the universe is a woman, Kirk is the man, and the Enterprise is his penis and he's rockin' it when he sends it to Warp every time. The Enterprise also ejaculates now every time they go to warp 
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Jun 24, 2013 21:45
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Gatts posted:EDIT: Then what is Scotty for when Kirk demands power/warp speed/miracle? Scotty delivers each time? Is he will? Cosmic viagra.
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Jun 24, 2013 21:47
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PeterWeller posted:There is a point to the scene--it further displays Kirk's lechery and shows that Marcus is unfazed and even a bit amused by it. It is an awkward moment of blatant male gaze, but it's not pointless, and I suspect the dynamic it helps establish will be an important part of the characters' relationship in later films.
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Jun 24, 2013 22:15
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