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Zurai posted:I think that's a very poor and unsafe assumption. There are numerous ways to increase the toughness of creatures as or even before they come into play. Yeah, I was just guessing, on account of this game having a number of ways to damage and modify the stats of creatures before they come into play. Things like Mortar Strike seemed like they'd be crazy if they could potentially make three turns of dead draws. But given how we don't have comprehensive rules yet, it could go either way! v  v
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Jun 23, 2013 23:29
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I think Mortar Strike will kill creatures (ie send them straight to discard) assuming they don't have 4 or more toughness. There's a difference in intent between an action your opponent plays that directly deals damage and an action you play which modifies toughness. There's also the issue of deck thinning, like ya'll have brought up; I don't think Crypto wants to allow people to essentially make 30 card decks in Constructed.
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Jun 23, 2013 23:42
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PVP cards can be used in PVE, right? The restriction is just for the other way around? I would feel pretty bummed if those 50 packs I'mma draft with turn out not to contain anything that can be used in dungeons and raids.
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Jun 24, 2013 18:07
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Yep, all PVP cards can be used in PVE (and you can get equipment for them too).
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Jun 24, 2013 18:14
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I played with that draft simulator a lot yesterday and I think I may have to free up a chunk of change when the game releases so I can draft all my packs. I'd forgotten how fun sealed formats are since the last major CCG I played competitively was the Decipher Star Wars CCG, which only had constructed.
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Jun 24, 2013 18:28
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Wait, drafting has an entry fee? I thought you just needed to have the packs. It makes some sense to have it require a separate fee, but the Tournaments page on the Hex site doesn't list anything about entry fees for any of its tournaments, just prizes.
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Jun 24, 2013 18:47
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From what's been said, drafting will take three packs plus the equivalent of a dollar in game currency (which pays for the prizes). Your "free drafts" from pro tier and grand king etc. have that fee included and are flat free.
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Jun 24, 2013 18:50
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Jonny Angel posted:Wait, drafting has an entry fee? I thought you just needed to have the packs. It makes some sense to have it require a separate fee, but the Tournaments page on the Hex site doesn't list anything about entry fees for any of its tournaments, just prizes. It would be crazy for drafting not to have an entry fee - you get to keep the three packs worth of cards you draft, and you have the potential to win more packs on top of that. How many depends on the tournament type, but in Swiss draft we know you win one pack per victory - so at least one pack unless you lose all three of your games. In general $1 is still low enough, and your expected gains are high enough, that drafting packs is financially a better option than opening them. I'm not sure where the entry fee is mentioned on the website, but it was definitely mentioned repeatedly during the Kickstarter. (Your free drafts are completely free, though - you don't even need to have the packs.)
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Jun 24, 2013 19:11
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I do wonder about thier cost/vs prize payout structure and how good it is for the economy. The draft fee doesn't come anywhere near covering the 12 packs of prize support. Which I think is going to result in an even bigger market flood of cards, because why buy all your packs, when you can buy three and then with pretty good patience get 1 at half price, provided you only win 1 round, going 3-0 in swiss you just got 3 boosters for half the price of 1. Skewed even higher in the 5-3-2-2 and 8-4 categories. Going infinite is a much easier possibilty in this game simply due to the low cost of entry.
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Jun 24, 2013 19:20
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Doc Aquatic posted:Yeah, I was just guessing, on account of this game having a number of ways to damage and modify the stats of creatures before they come into play. Things like Mortar Strike seemed like they'd be crazy if they could potentially make three turns of dead draws. But given how we don't have comprehensive rules yet, it could go either way! v Mortar Strike now domes for 3, puts the top 3 cards in the opposing deck into the graveyard. There were some issue with "upon death" triggers and such that made that card really complicated and made players confused when they played it as to what could potentially happen. Jedit posted:As far as I can tell as a layman, the only difference between the Year 1 and Year 5 heroes is that the Year 1 heroes flip as part of the cost of their ability and the Year 5 heroes flip as part of the effect. I think your example is meaningless to anyone other than a WOWTCG player. As Merauder said, it's to show that Champion powers can go in many different directions and serve more functions. It's the same reason why Set 1 is so big: the first set needs to lay a proper TCG foundation-- something almost all other digital TCGs don't understand-- with simple staples. Once you have the basic foundation, then future sets can build upon that and take you different directions. Jonny Angel posted:Wait, drafting has an entry fee? I thought you just needed to have the packs. It makes some sense to have it require a separate fee, but the Tournaments page on the Hex site doesn't list anything about entry fees for any of its tournaments, just prizes. This is pretty standard for any tournament with a prize. I'm not very happy with the website as it stands and I'm working on getting us the proper web infrastructure for a video game. If those plans work out, then you should see a very different, much improved site before the end of the year. Even if it doesn't work out, we'll do a lot of cleaning up on the site before open beta. Go RV! posted:Any word on being able to be in multiple guilds? I'd like to be in the goon guild, but I've got a group of non-goon friends I'd like to be able to share decks with and such Unlikely that you'll be able to "equip/unequip" guilds or belong to multiple guilds. Ideally, I'd love for Guilds to really represent you and your guildmates, much like how a professional sports team works in regards to guild rankings, battles. In the TCG world, players kinda have these loose connections and affiliations. I'd prefer to see it more formal and when one person leaves a guild for another, it's a big deal and newsworthy. That would help bring in sponsorships and better give teams, groups of players highly recognizable brand names upon which they can build both in PVE and PVP. It also helps us invest in the guild rankings, incentive based play. Here is Stovetop posted:I do wonder about thier cost/vs prize payout structure and how good it is for the economy. The draft fee doesn't come anywhere near covering the 12 packs of prize support. Which I think is going to result in an even bigger market flood of cards, because why buy all your packs, when you can buy three and then with pretty good patience get 1 at half price, provided you only win 1 round, going 3-0 in swiss you just got 3 boosters for half the price of 1. Skewed even higher in the 5-3-2-2 and 8-4 categories. Going infinite is a much easier possibilty in this game simply due to the low cost of entry. Completely reasonable point. We have an economist (PhD at a respected university, former TCG industry veteran) currently working on this right now. Though I don't think we've ever outlined that we'd be doing the 8/4, 5/3/2/2, 1-pack-per-win prize models. Blinkman987 fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Jun 24, 2013 |
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Jun 24, 2013 19:27
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Here is Stovetop posted:I do wonder about thier cost/vs prize payout structure and how good it is for the economy. The draft fee doesn't come anywhere near covering the 12 packs of prize support. Which I think is going to result in an even bigger market flood of cards, because why buy all your packs, when you can buy three and then with pretty good patience get 1 at half price, provided you only win 1 round, going 3-0 in swiss you just got 3 boosters for half the price of 1. Skewed even higher in the 5-3-2-2 and 8-4 categories. Going infinite is a much easier possibilty in this game simply due to the low cost of entry. All that really means is that average player cost(and that of cards) will be relatively low. There will still be a healthy economy, in that things will be regularly bought and sold, they will just be done at a much lower price than people are used to for TCGs. Especially for the first set, where I imagine even the rares will be barely worth the non-existent digital paper they're printed on, but for subsequent sets not so much. Keep in mind that, again, being a digital TCG they can add many ways to make your cards not exist anymore. Just for sake of example, maybe they can add a way to trade in 4 of one card to get a single foil version of that card. I'm not saying they will, but it's a way to consider that they can prevent card flood from happening while still keeping prices down on tournament entries.
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Jun 24, 2013 19:54
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Vincent Valentine posted:All that really means is that average player cost(and that of cards) will be relatively low. There will still be a healthy economy, in that things will be regularly bought and sold, they will just be done at a much lower price than people are used to for TCGs. Especially for the first set, where I imagine even the rares will be barely worth the non-existent digital paper they're printed on, but for subsequent sets not so much. There is some sort of crafting thing that consumes cards for something, making gems maybe? Won't know how that will effect card rarity until we know how good the stuff is that can be crafted.
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Jun 24, 2013 19:55
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tijag posted:There is some sort of crafting thing that consumes cards for something, making gems maybe? Won't know how that will effect card rarity until we know how good the stuff is that can be crafted. You have infinite gems so it's not that.
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Jun 24, 2013 20:01
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Blinkman987 posted:Completely reasonable point. We have an economist (PhD at a respected university, former TCG industry veteran) currently working on this right now. Though I don't think we've ever outlined that we'd be doing the 8/4, 5/3/2/2, 1-pack-per-win prize models. You've definitely said that everyone who wins at least one game in a Swiss draft gets a booster, and I think you confirmed it was 1-pack-per-win at some point but I could easily be wrong. The rest is a combination of deduction along these lines (worth watching) and comparisons to MTGO. The official forums are pretty much taking this prize structure as accepted fact right now though (with an option on 4/3/2/2 rather than 5/3/2/2), so if that's not the case you should probably start managing expectations now.
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Jun 24, 2013 20:34
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pumpinglemma posted:It would be crazy for drafting not to have an entry fee - you get to keep the three packs worth of cards you draft, and you have the potential to win more packs on top of that. How many depends on the tournament type, but in Swiss draft we know you win one pack per victory - so at least one pack unless you lose all three of your games. In general $1 is still low enough, and your expected gains are high enough, that drafting packs is financially a better option than opening them. I don't understand how the swiss system payout works. 8 people = 8 entry fees = 4 packs Just the initial pairing of all the people would produce 4 victories, which would be the entire prize pool wouldn't it?
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Jun 24, 2013 21:16
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nerox posted:I don't understand how the swiss system payout works.  All of the draft systems (that we know of) are 8 player, have the same entry fee, and pay out 12 booster packs in total. Don't equate the entry fee to the number of packs that are going into the win pot.For Swiss, everyone plays 3 games and gains 1 booster per win. 8 players * 1.5 wins on average = 12 packs. e: Though now I'm not sure if that's confirmed or just based on MtG systems.. Attention Deficit fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Jun 24, 2013 |
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Jun 24, 2013 21:41
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nerox posted:I don't understand how the swiss system payout works. This is ignoring the 24 packs needed to play. It's essentially $56 dollars to fund a full draft and it pays out 12 packs. Either way you phrase it, all variations pay out 12 packs and all variations take in $56. With the millions of set 1 boosters that will be in the hands of players Crypto probably wont sell hardly any boosters directly because it will be cheaper to just buy plat and buy boosters on the auction house. So even in a scenario where set 1 boosters are .70 cents it costs almost $25 dollars, $8 for entry fee and $16.80 for 24 packs, and they are paying out 12 packs worth around $8.40. TLDR: They make money regardless. I've heard people bring up "going infinite" a few times, wouldn't you consistently have to place in the top 2 for that to be feasible? If you are good enough that you are winning most of your drafts I don't see why it's an issue.
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Jun 24, 2013 21:44
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nerox posted:I don't understand how the swiss system payout works. The trick is that unopened packs are also a cost to enter, so there's no need for the prize pool to pay for the full retail price of the packs. To copy from Magic Online (just like cryptozoic heyo), Wizards of the Coast charges $2 (half the price of a pack) to draft, and offers 12 boosters in total prizes, which is the same as in Hex swiss tournaments. But if we assume that the only way to get packs are through the store or from draft prizes, it turns out that Wizards of the Coast makes far more than $16 per draft. Because there is a deficit of 12 packs from each draft (24 opened vs. 12 awarded) Wizards would make $64 each draft. While the existence of constructed tournaments and the like change this, we can call it roughly accurate. e;fb a little but note that no matter what, as long as platinum is only available from Cryptozoic's store they'll make at least $8 per draft from the platinum, since packs are free to produce. Istvun fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jun 24, 2013 |
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Jun 24, 2013 21:48
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katkillad2 posted:This is ignoring the 24 packs needed to play. It's essentially $56 dollars to fund a full draft and it pays out 12 packs. Either way you phrase it, all variations pay out 12 packs and all variations take in $56. Not only is this the case, but anything bought off the auction house Crypto makes money on twice. Once when it is bought by a player, won through drafts, awarded through the VIP program, etc and a second time when the player buys platinum, then uses that platinum to buy the pack. I'd be really surprised if Crypto didn't have at least a few people saying "Here's exactly how we're going to profit." I'm not at all worried about Cryptos business model and their ability to make money, but like that other guy mentioned up there it's the player economy that may bring up problems down the line. Even then i'm not particularly worried about it and the first year is going to be absolutely chaotic with all the free drafts so who knows.
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Jun 24, 2013 21:50
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Ok, I didn't know the prize pool for drafts would be so large with the small entry fee. It makes a lot more sense now as to why people say you should draft all your packs.
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Jun 24, 2013 21:53
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The #1 reason you should draft all your packs is because it makes you a better player for $1.
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Jun 24, 2013 21:58
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katkillad2 posted:I've heard people bring up "going infinite" a few times, wouldn't you consistently have to place in the top 2 for that to be feasible? If you are good enough that you are winning most of your drafts I don't see why it's an issue. *Some very top players can go infinite. The odds of you being in that top 1-10% is low.
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Jun 24, 2013 22:14
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Korak posted:There is no such thing as going infinite* in these types of games. There's been a lot of people hoodwinked in to playing MTGO that didn't realize they ended up spending more than they won. Yea this is kind of what I was assuming. I'm sure it's possible, but I think the way the payouts are created it keeps it highly unlikely unless you are incredibly skilled and lucky. Even if you are in the top 5% or whatever you still have 95% of the users who are still funding the machine.
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Jun 24, 2013 22:22
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Korak posted:There is no such thing as going infinite* in these types of games. There's been a lot of people hoodwinked in to playing MTGO that didn't realize they ended up spending more than they won. Ideally, through eSports, a player could earn a living through Twitch ad revenue, sponsorship, and tournament winnings. Plus we're an OP-centric company, so we'll probably always have better prizes than we have to.
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Jun 24, 2013 22:33
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Going infinite is like becoming a pro poker player. Everyone thinks they can do it, but there are very few people that actually can
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Jun 24, 2013 22:48
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I never said going infinite was easy, I'm also not worried about CZO making money. It's a game you pay real dollars for digital product, it prints money we know that. Again my concern was the player market, which is got to be heavily flooded, particularly again because the cost barrier for entry vs the payouts is very high. I'm not saying it's necessarily bad, at the beginning it's going to keep competitive card prices low. It could be really good in the long term of the game, if drafting maintains a very strong draw, CZO is going to print money, and constructed is going to be fairly cheap to enter. I think it's win win. It was more a curiosity about the whole thing than a statement against good or ill.
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Jun 24, 2013 23:01
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Everyone keeps assuming that the auction house will be flooded with cheap boosters because of the VIP program / draft prizes, I think it's being blown out of proportion - we know they're going to keep track of things to avoid abuse of the VIP program, and people who are into drafting will probably only sell "excess" boosters to fund more drafts and so will want to get the most bang for their buck. Set 1 will have tons of cheap boosters because of the Kickstarter rewards, but that's good because it means a big influx of USD if people are going to actually buy them while they are cheap.
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Jun 24, 2013 23:06
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Grim posted:Everyone keeps assuming that the auction house will be flooded with cheap boosters because of the VIP program / draft prizes, I think it's being blown out of proportion - we know they're going to keep track of things to avoid abuse of the VIP program, and people who are into drafting will probably only sell "excess" boosters to fund more drafts and so will want to get the most bang for their buck. The idea that the market will be flooded with set 1 boosters is also dependent on the percentage of the playerbase that are Kickstarter backers.
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Jun 24, 2013 23:08
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The idea that the market will be flooded with Set 1 boosters requires the assumption that people will sell their boosters instead of drafting them. Anyone who's coming to Hex from Magic will be drafting all of their boosters.
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Jun 24, 2013 23:11
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Vincent Valentine posted:The #1 reason you should draft all your packs is because it makes you a better player for $1. Nah, that's the #2 reason. The #1 reason is because it's really fun. Drafting adds an element of uncertainty and suspense to the actual deck-building process that's quite engaging.
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Jun 24, 2013 23:25
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I'll sell every single one of my 400+ boosters from Kickstarter as long as they are going for the amount I've determined is worth selling them for and there are plenty of people who are going to do the same. Either I'm right that the market will be flooded and packs will be worth less what I plan on selling mine for or i'm wrong and there are so many users that I make back the entire amount I pledged selling boosters while having a ton of KS only rewards.
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Jun 24, 2013 23:31
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Both good points - I'm assuming that enough Kickstarter backers over-capitalized in a mad frenzy over the value presented that by the time they are playing the game they won't want to put in an extra $50 or whatever in draft fees so will resort to selling packs instead (not me, I can nowadays look at a pack of unopened boosters and think to myself "soon my pretties...") Also I figured that there weren't too many Slacker Backers coming in yet, but I guess we haven't had an update to the PayPal numbers in a while...
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Jun 24, 2013 23:37
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If there's a good idea of what the delay between set one and set two will be, that could help inform how many to sell--just make an educated guess at how many drafts you'll do before then, and sell the rest of the boosters.
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Jun 24, 2013 23:42
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A lot of people, when they say "going infinite," include selling off all the cards you draft (that are at least marginally valuable as singles, obviously). You still need to finish in the prizes of an 8-4 or whatever with decent frequency to go infinite in limited, but each time you get a good mythic or a staple rare it gives you a little bit more of a cushion for when you have bad beats.
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Jun 25, 2013 01:40
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cheetah7071 posted:If there's a good idea of what the delay between set one and set two will be, that could help inform how many to sell--just make an educated guess at how many drafts you'll do before then, and sell the rest of the boosters. We don't know how draft formats are going to develop, though. In Magic, most of the popular draft formats involve taking the three boosters from three different sets - it seems likely there will be something similar in Hex. (We do know that sets are going to release every four months from launch, though.)
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Jun 25, 2013 03:15
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Going Infinite includes going infinite from constructed tournaments, and with the number of cards KS backers will start with, the up front cost of constructing a viable deck will be heavily discounted.Some Numbers posted:The idea that the market will be flooded with Set 1 boosters requires the assumption that people will sell their boosters instead of drafting them. Anyone who's coming to Hex from Magic will be drafting all of their boosters. Anyone who's coming to Hex from Magic will be selling some boosters to supplement their drafts. I already sank $250 into this, I don't expect to put any more for quite a while.
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Jun 25, 2013 05:12
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Lone Goat posted:Anyone who's coming to Hex from Magic will be selling some boosters to supplement their drafts. I already sank $250 into this, I don't expect to put any more for quite a while.
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Jun 25, 2013 07:29
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I'm not spending any for awhile because for at least a year I'm going to get free drafts so why would I? I'm probably going to get in on the VIP during that time but only because it's $4 a month and I lose more than $4 in seat cushions so whatever.
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Jun 25, 2013 07:31
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I'll probably end up putting a little money in, just because I know there are going to be weeks that I want to do more than one draft. Though, depending on how good the PvE is, I may be spending enough time there that I'm not as worried about drafting quite so much.
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Jun 25, 2013 07:57
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I plan on trading what i can of my excess equipment and exclusive cards (4 tiers = 3 more equipment than I can use and 6 more copies than i need of each exclusive card, excluding Lotus Garden / Collector AA), I don't need to be in a hurry to do it though because as you said free drafts each week + goon raids can tide me over I really would like to know more about the crafting system, it's the thing they've detailed least but could be a really good gold/card/time sink depending on what kind of PvE stuff it generates (more cards for sure, maybe more equipment / exclusive stuff / keep defense upgrades / etc, plus re-running dungeons to find recipes / etc)
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Jun 25, 2013 08:31
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