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After the eclipse I was so hoping it would end with The "Get in mah belly" guy would come, Guts would find the Dragon Slayer and then credits right after the scene where he cuts it in two
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Jun 25, 2013 02:48
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People wank over the Lost Children arc too much. I like the show version and think its the best way to introduce someone to Berserk. It gives a sense of the sword fighting in motion before you read the manga. The show also ends on a cliff hanger and would drive people to read the manga. Everynone I've recommended the show to end up wanting to read what happens next. It was the perfect F-U and brings gravity to the situation with the screen fading red with blood as Guts loses his eye.
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Jun 25, 2013 03:11
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temple posted:I like the show version and think its the best way to introduce someone to Berserk. It gives a sense of the sword fighting in motion before you read the manga. The show also ends on a cliff hanger and would drive people to read the manga. Everynone I've recommended the show to end up wanting to read what happens next. It was the perfect F-U and brings gravity to the situation with the screen fading red with blood as Guts loses his eye. I'm one of the "had to read to see what happens" people, but well after the fact I'd like to think I've made peace with the original anime version. You just have to frame it in one of a couple of ways. 1.) As a Complete Story Sure, it starts off with hushed whispers of Evil King Griffith, (Which by the way, has that still not officially happened in the manga yet? Talk about looking ahead!) with the Black Swordsman Guts butchering an apostle and teases of him being haunted by bad ju-ju, but that's not the story. Without the longer buildup and his fight against the Count setting up a greater narrative to come, the story becomes something else. In this version Guts's quest for revenge and hunting down the four robot masters and fighting Dr. Wily in his Castle are all ultimately less important than the long and complex reasons behind his desire for revenge. How Guts got out of that hopeless scenario, how he plans to murder Griffith in an Epic Swordfight - these don't matter. If you look at it as just a story about why a man wanted vengeance, it works on its own a lot better. 2.) Mentally Project it as the real Star Wars Prequels "Oh, so that's why Anakin became Darth Vader. That was a lot more interesting of a reason to turn to evil than that other version I must have imagined." Incidentally it's the opposite of the above in that the how and why is ultimately more important than the aftermath and its resolution.
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Jun 25, 2013 03:56
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temple posted:People wank over the Lost Children arc too much. What? It's one of my favourite parts of the story, am I suddenly not allowed to have that opinion? What a bizarre thing to say.
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Jun 25, 2013 08:31
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The Misty Valley Arc is one of the best episodic stories of Guts as the Black Swordsman. It would be a treat to see that produced and animated.
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Jun 25, 2013 13:12
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I assume the fourth movie has to focus on episodic black swordsman stuff, so either misty valley or slug-count. Misty valley has the better story and characters, and leads well into the knights of the holy chains, while the slug count stuff has the second appearance by god hand, which is somewhat important. To people who saw the third movie, did either the slug count or the Roshinuu apostles make an appearance? And where exactly does the movie end?
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Jun 25, 2013 14:06
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ANIME AKBAR posted:To people who saw the third movie, did either the slug count or the Roshinuu apostles make an appearance? And where exactly does the movie end? The slug count is there, and I think I saw Roshinu/Rosine as well (though very, very briefly). The movie ends post-Eclipse with Guts grabbing Skull Knight's sword and fighting the sacrifice spirits until dawn arrives.
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Jun 25, 2013 15:18
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Yea, Rosine is the very last apostle we see as everyone is going home after the big party. She flies into the "camera" at the end of the scene.
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Jun 25, 2013 15:22
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temple posted:I like the show version and think its the best way to introduce someone to Berserk. It gives a sense of the sword fighting in motion before you read the manga. The show also ends on a cliff hanger and would drive people to read the manga. Everynone I've recommended the show to end up wanting to read what happens next. It was the perfect F-U and brings gravity to the situation with the screen fading red with blood as Guts loses his eye. I really disagree with this. I watched the show first and it turned me off bigtime. I thought the Eclipse was hilarious because up until then there was no foreshadowing at all about what a Behilit was for. After the first episode it was just a bunch of medieval stuff and then BAM! your relic is a summoning device and now there are monsters everywhere eating everybody. And then the show ended. At the time I didn't know there was a manga, so all I could assume was that whoever wrote the story was a loving idiot. I found out about the manga thanks to this thread, and I'm glad I took the plunge despite my misgivings. I don't think Miura had a firm grasp of Guts's character in the first three volumes, but those volumes established context for the demonic events in the Golden Age arc that was sorely missing in the anime.
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Jun 25, 2013 17:17
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U-DO Burger posted:I found out about the manga thanks to this thread, and I'm glad I took the plunge despite my misgivings. I don't think Miura had a firm grasp of Guts's character in the first three volumes, but those volumes established context for the demonic events in the Golden Age arc that was sorely missing in the anime. I don't think Miura had much grasp of anything about the story at that time. The gulf between that and the Golden Age is immense. The Black Swordsman arc has people being publicly herded to the Apostle baron to be eaten; the Golden Age has nothing supernatural for volumes at a time, and its tone is much more mature than "all grimdark all the time".
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Jun 25, 2013 17:34
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U-DO Burger posted:I really disagree with this. I watched the show first and it turned me off bigtime. I thought the Eclipse was hilarious because up until then there was no foreshadowing at all about what a Behilit was for. After the first episode it was just a bunch of medieval stuff and then BAM! your relic is a summoning device and now there are monsters everywhere eating everybody. And then the show ended. At the time I didn't know there was a manga, so all I could assume was that whoever wrote the story was a loving idiot. I don't know what show you were watching but there's tons of foreshadowing about the Behilit and supernatural stuff going on, that was the whole point of the part with Guts and Griffith fighting Zodd. Well, that and reinforcing that Griffith is an idiot where Guts is concerned. While the anime series isn't as good as the manga, that's a testament to just how good the manga is, it's still one of the best anime shows ever.
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Jun 25, 2013 18:05
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House Louse posted:I don't think Miura had much grasp of anything about the story at that time. The gulf between that and the Golden Age is immense. The Black Swordsman arc has people being publicly herded to the Apostle baron to be eaten; the Golden Age has nothing supernatural for volumes at a time, and its tone is much more mature than "all grimdark all the time". I think the Black swordsman arc is a teaser for the rest of the story. I don't think a medieval story about a bum mercenary would have been interesting unless the Black swordsman arc drew readers in. However, as TV show, the Golden age is a better place to start(at least States side). I like the Golden Age as well for having less fantasy and a grim but believable setting. Miura had a grasp but you have to re-read that section after the eclipse for it to sink in. Guts in my reading is an rear end in a top hat and barely better than his enemies but he has this snarking on the outside, crying on the inside character that is depicted in those first volumes. They are really important to Guts overall growth and maturity. He's not virtuous, Guts had to learn to give a gently caress about people. U-DO Burger posted:I really disagree with this. I watched the show first and it turned me off bigtime. I thought the Eclipse was hilarious because up until then there was no foreshadowing at all about what a Behilit was for. After the first episode it was just a bunch of medieval stuff and then BAM! your relic is a summoning device and now there are monsters everywhere eating everybody. And then the show ended. At the time I didn't know there was a manga, so all I could assume was that whoever wrote the story was a loving idiot. I view the show as focusing on the Golden age and that's why I think its a good place to start. Its easier to digest. temple fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Jun 25, 2013 |
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Jun 25, 2013 18:34
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Sakurazuka posted:I don't know what show you were watching but there's tons of foreshadowing about the Behilit and supernatural stuff going on, that was the whole point of the part with Guts and Griffith fighting Zodd. Well, that and reinforcing that Griffith is an idiot where Guts is concerned. I worded that pretty poorly. What I mean is that throughout the anime we see the Behilit as some sort of supernatural trinket, and Zodd says some stuff about it, but we've really got no real reason to fear it. The manga has those exact same scenes, but instead it's really unsettling because you already know what a Behilit is, what it does, what activates it, and what the results are probably going to be. That's what I'm getting at when I say the anime doesn't give us context. I think it's also annoying that the anime didn't tell you Griffith became Femto until it actually happened. IIRC the most we got was a vague dream and Guts waking up pissed yelling Griffith's name. I had no idea what real relevance any of the Golden Age had to the first episode until the end, and it just left a bad taste in my mouth. The outtakes made up for it though.
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Jun 25, 2013 22:19
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Hakkesshu posted:The movie ends post-Eclipse with Guts grabbing Skull Knight's sword and fighting the sacrifice spirits until dawn arrives. If that's the case, then that doesn't mean the demon fetus is left out. It will probably be the first scene of the next movie.
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Jun 25, 2013 22:44
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temple posted:I think the Black swordsman arc is a teaser for the rest of the story. I don't think a medieval story about a bum mercenary would have been interesting unless the Black swordsman arc drew readers in. However, as TV show, the Golden age is a better place to start(at least States side). I agree with most of this, but though I can see its structural purposes the Black Swordsman arc doesn't really gel with the rest of the series to me. Miura developed a lot while writing it.
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Jun 26, 2013 23:31
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Guts has always been a dick but he's not an ungrateful dick. He's a mass-murdering mercenary, sure, but he's appreciative of people who save his life and he somehow has nothing but positive memories of his vile abusive adoptive dad. In the first couple volumes, though, this isn't the case. At the start, Guts was a complete bastard who ignored or hurt people who helped him: Puck, Vargas, the old man in the wagon. You can't really call it character development because of its place between the Golden Age and Lost Children arcs (both of which had more consistent behavior for him), so it's a definite case of Miura improving later on. (The art got a lot better by the time of the fight with the Count, too, and never stopped stretching to greater heights.) Only after seeing Guts shed tears after realizing what he put Theresia through did I start to care about this big steroid guy with a surfboard-sized sword. He meant something to me after that. Though a case could be made that Guts' Black Swordsman arc dickitude was him trying to cope with the horrors of the Eclipse and purposely driving people away so they wouldn't get killed, I don't see anything in those chapters to support it. It's probably just a retcon (though a welcome one) to explain this otherwise out-of-character behavior.
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Jun 27, 2013 00:50
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Did they change the animation or something between the 2nd and 3rd film? I dunno what it was but it just looked better in the 3rd, more consistent somehow. I was glad to see Puck/Skellyman in it since it made me realise that there's probably going to be a continuation. Also in general a lot of the scenes in the film looked really good, like the brands bursting out and hitting everyone, plus the Behelit itself doing its thing.  I mean seriously, that looks awesome. Honestly cannot wait to see the upcoming arcs in animation, kinda hope they get more character involved since I don't think they really did it justice, especially considering the upcoming people have a bit more longevity than the likes of Pippin or Judeau.
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Jun 27, 2013 03:42
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I always thought Guts was torn up over Theresia because the look she gave him as he was leaving reminded him of Casca. Miura even colors her with darker skin in the close up on her eyes to communicate this, at least that's what I gathered. He might on some level acknowledge what he did, but the wound that cuts the deepest is the reminder of his love.
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Jun 27, 2013 04:20
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A.S.H. posted:I always thought Guts was torn up over Theresia because the look she gave him as he was leaving reminded him of Casca. Miura even colors her with darker skin in the close up on her eyes to communicate this, at least that's what I gathered. He might on some level acknowledge what he did, but the wound that cuts the deepest is the reminder of his love. Yeah, Theresia idolized her father like Casca idolized Griffith. Guts felt the guilt of acting rashly and it hurting someone, like how he and Casca used to argue back with the Hawks. He's a master swordsman but killing can't give people want they want. There is a chain that I've noticed from the girl that gets killed and possessed, to Theresia, to Jill, to Farnese, to Schierke were Guts is getting better at dealing with women and people's sensitivity. I leave Caska out of this because she's harder to fit and their issues stem from before the Blackswords man arc. At first he doesn't care and the girl gets killed, then he still doesn't care but tries to help a girl regardless, then he helps Jill but its more to meet his ends, then he has the opportunity to kill Farnese but doesn't (much like the first girl that gets possessed) and finally with Schierke he lets her guide him. Its really subtle and the product of having years to develop a character. If you really pay attention, there's scene in both the manga and TV show where Guts is on his way to the snake apostle and he notices a little girl getting carted away to the castle. Its a small touch but it shows how Guts is aware of other people's suffering. Its always in the back of his mind but as the story develops you see him take a more active role in sympathizing with people and women in particular.
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Jun 27, 2013 07:09
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Soulcleaver posted:Guts has always been a dick but he's not an ungrateful dick. He's a mass-murdering mercenary, sure, but he's appreciative of people who save his life and he somehow has nothing but positive memories of his vile abusive adoptive dad. In the first couple volumes, though, this isn't the case. At the start, Guts was a complete bastard who ignored or hurt people who helped him: Puck, Vargas, the old man in the wagon. You can't really call it character development because of its place between the Golden Age and Lost Children arcs (both of which had more consistent behavior for him), so it's a definite case of Miura improving later on. (The art got a lot better by the time of the fight with the Count, too, and never stopped stretching to greater heights.) Only after seeing Guts shed tears after realizing what he put Theresia through did I start to care about this big steroid guy with a surfboard-sized sword. He meant something to me after that. It should also be said that Griffith, for what he becomes, sort of embodies the fallible spirit of glory. After seeing such a man use people to his advantage, it's pretty obvious that this is meant to shape Guts' overall view on how battles are fought, and the evils to come from manipulation. The moment when he temporarily leaves the Band before the transformation that eradicates the group is when character development really starts to set in for me. I also found the brand given to him as symbolic if you refer to his original attitude before joining the Hawks. Forever a loner, he seems, to be hunted by demons for an eternity. It circles back to his motivation to survive and fight by any means to come out on top, only this time he recognizes a duty protect the people that truly matter to him. He may be a loner in the traditional sense, but the events after the Great Eclipse certainly humble him to the idea that caring for people may be a priority. That's how I perceive it, anyway. void_serfer fucked around with this message at 08:25 on Jun 27, 2013 |
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Jun 27, 2013 08:16
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One of my favorite lines from the original anime dub was when Guts was reflecting after rejoining the Hawks a year after parting. It was to the effect of, "How come I never realize how important these things are to me, until they are gone?" I hear that voice in my head whenever I stop to think about my regrets.
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Jun 27, 2013 09:01
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They paved elf island paradise and put up a parking lot.
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Jun 27, 2013 15:41
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A.S.H. posted:I always thought Guts was torn up over Theresia because the look she gave him as he was leaving reminded him of Casca. Miura even colors her with darker skin in the close up on her eyes to communicate this, at least that's what I gathered. He might on some level acknowledge what he did, but the wound that cuts the deepest is the reminder of his love. I was under the impression that Guts was tearing up because saving Theresia from falling reminded him of Casca.
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Jun 27, 2013 16:09
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I'm just kind of dropping in here, to ask a particular question about Berserk. I think I want to read this series, because there's a lot about that seems genuinely excellent. But, knowing full well what the major twists are (as they were spoiled to me long ago), is it as psychopathically awful to female characters as it seems? Specifically, as the development of the ostensible "female lead" seems to indicate? Basically do they just keep having horrible things happen to them just to give Guts and whatever other dudes are around something to rage about. It's a problem in a lot of fiction, but in something this darkly-themed, it seems like it would be particularly obnoxious. Is it really overflowing with the old damsels in distress and "women in refrigerators", or is there actually some kind of narrative balance in play that makes it feel like such events actually belong in the story due to genuinely good storytelling, rather than pulling out cheap cliches to create drama? Even if it's something as basic as having the misery be spread equally to all characters, that would alleviate it somewhat. Because really, I hate that poo poo, and it ruins a lot of otherwise great stories. 
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Jun 30, 2013 10:27
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Don't worry, horrible poo poo happens to everyone in Berserk regardless of their circumstances or genetic makeup. And I mean EVERYONE. Even the most repugnant human and demon bastards are themselves conflicted if not outright victims at some point; Mirua is careful to give every character believable motivations even if that motivation is "literally rape and kill everything". It's just that women and children aren't immune to suffering here like in so many other media, and that combined with the traumatizing effect of so many scenes in Berserk can lead people to get the wrong idea that it's some kind of misogynistic rape fuel when the reader is actually supposed to be horrified by it. Even the author himself has to take a break and watch sparkly uguu anime often in order to avoid being depressed at the miserable things he has created. It's a bleak story, though it has gotten lighter in recent years. Also, yes the scene is unbelievably horrific, but Casca doesn't get raped into catatonia to give Guts the catalyst for revenge (which he had anyway, gently caress Griffith). If anything, he's worse afterwards; he's a total rear end in a top hat after the Eclipse and it takes him quite a while to learn to trust people again not to mention the fact that Casca is still around and needs looking after. Relatively recent chapters have implied that there's a mystical way to restore Casca's mind, but given the nature of Berserk it will probably result in more misery for everyone involved. I think maybe Elf King is going to heal her and she's going to decide to side with Griffith, which will put Guts over the edge and lead to him giving into his inner beast and begin the final battle against the God Hand. Berserk is a story about revenge and giving the middle finger to fate/causality, and I think that's the way it's headed.
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Jun 30, 2013 10:55
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You shouldn't try to whitewash Berserk entirely. All three protagonists are rape survivors but only one of them is reduced to catatonia by it, and with a decade or more of perspective (!) that whole plot really comes off as Miura not knowing what to do with Casca and turning her into a non-character until he can figure it out. There's also a sort of voyeuristic double standard where sexual violence against men happens off-panel or is represented abstractly while sexual violence against women is generally pretty explicit.
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Jun 30, 2013 11:22
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See, what interests me especially is hearing about how even the worst people in the story have some kind of reason for how they are, and aren't just "Look what they DO, now you know they're EEEEVIL, right?" I guess if you're going to really dig into characterization like that, you have to be willing to go places that most stories wouldn't want to. Maybe because it's such a challenging thing to write and it would come out very poorly, and you'd be afraid that the audience would completely miss whatever you had intended the point to be (and, go figure, think you're a total psychopath for wanting to write this in the first place). It's hearing that Berserk pulls off this kind of thing (and adorns it lavishly with all kinds of engrossing visual panache), and still manages to make you sympathize with the characters, that makes it seem like a compelling read to begin with. Thus the initial interest.
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Jun 30, 2013 11:29
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Mazed posted:See, what interests me especially is hearing about how even the worst people in the story have some kind of reason for how they are, and aren't just "Look what they DO, now you know they're EEEEVIL, right?" quote:It's hearing that Berserk pulls off this kind of thing (and adorns it lavishly with all kinds of engrossing visual panache)  It's no wonder he takes 4-6 months to give us a chapter. Mirua is one of the greatest artists alive.
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Jun 30, 2013 11:46
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What is even going on here  (my favorite is the whaleosaurus, but they are all wonderful)
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Jun 30, 2013 11:53
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:There's also a sort of voyeuristic double standard where sexual violence against men happens off-panel or is represented abstractly while sexual violence against women is generally pretty explicit. Read Berserk, Mazed.
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Jun 30, 2013 12:12
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LordMune posted:This is true and I absolutely agree, but it is worth mentioning that when taken in context (of comics running in Young Animal and similar magazines), Miura's use and depiction of violence, sexual and otherwise, is often downright conscientious. Yeah, my point (that didn't really come across in that post) is that for all that I have some misgivings about Berserk, that's the worst I could say about it. It's a series I want to see improve, not one I would categorically warn anyone away from.
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Jun 30, 2013 12:14
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Mazed posted:I think I want to read this series, because there's a lot about that seems genuinely excellent. But, knowing full well what the major twists are (as they were spoiled to me long ago), is it as psychopathically awful to female characters as it seems? Specifically, as the development of the ostensible "female lead" seems to indicate? Sort of. Terrible things happen to the main female character, only partly explainable in-story, and it does partly motivate the male characters; but it's not cheap and there is genuinely good storytelling at the core of it. Do try it, it's a wonderful comic; but it's not something everyone will like. LordMune posted:This is true and I absolutely agree, but it is worth mentioning that when taken in context (of comics running in Young Animal and similar magazines), Miura's use and depiction of violence, sexual and otherwise, is often downright conscientious. I get the impression that Young Animal is a pretty sordid magazine.
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Jun 30, 2013 15:49
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Re: Casca and women Casca joined the Hawks and picked up the sword (literally and figuratively) solely because she had something to defend. She had to defend her body and later Griffith. That's why the Eclipse was so traumatic because she not only lost the Hawks but Griffith took the one thing he gave her, which was her strength. She's not healed but I'd say nor is Guts. Its more than rape. She is sexualized but I wonder why Miura has to carry the blame for it when the world of Berserk and our world would do the same. I believe there is a point behind it and her rape is an indictment against everyone that sexualized her (including the reader). I can't figure why Schierke needed to be naked. That bothers me but otherwise I would focus on what the female characters are given by Miura more so than what he takes away.
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Jun 30, 2013 17:13
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Miura really likes drawing nudes of both genders (I don't think he's actually allowed to draw a penis though). Also that male-rape was super explicit, what are you talking about? Not to mention that unlike Casca it was happening to a little kid, it's hardly a double standard to make that less graphic.
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Jun 30, 2013 20:41
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Raku posted:Miura really likes drawing nudes of both genders (I don't think he's actually allowed to draw a penis though). Also that male-rape was super explicit, what are you talking about? Not to mention that unlike Casca it was happening to a little kid, it's hardly a double standard to make that less graphic. Well, is it or isn't it? Anyways, my point here isn't that it should be more explicit about what happened to Griffith or Guts or Lord Gennon's harem of drugged-looking boys, god forbid. My point is that it lingers on stuff like the scenes with Wyald, or the trolls, or Farnese's possession by brand spirits, in a way that it never would with male characters. Saying "well it victimizes everyone" in light of that is still a poor excuse because it doesn't present their victimization in the same way, regardless of whether it has other reasons not to.
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Jun 30, 2013 21:03
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:You shouldn't try to whitewash Berserk entirely. All three protagonists are rape survivors... That's not how I remember it, IIRC, Griffith consented to relations with Gennon (Chuder governor at Doldrey) in exchange for money to help grow the Hawks
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Jul 1, 2013 06:49
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Khagan posted:That's not how I remember it, IIRC, Griffith consented to relations with Gennon (Chuder governor at Doldrey) in exchange for money to help grow the Hawks Ah, my bad. I had a lovely timeline that made it sound like Griffith and Guts were only 14-15 at the time, but Skullnight.net set me straight.
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Jul 1, 2013 12:18
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Sorry guys, I'm a total Berserk newbie, but Descent was a goddamn masterpiece. I'm not too interested in what the movies retained vs. the manga, because as I see it, the third movie did a masterful job communicating the absolute horror and hopelessness of the Eclipse, which is all you can really ask for in a movie that focuses entirely on it.
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Jul 2, 2013 07:56
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Soulcleaver posted:The fact that the internet is full of Griffith sympathizers is a strong indication that Mirua pulled this off spectacularly. Not sure how anyone could think this. I mean it's been years since I read the golden age arc, but isn't Griffith's whole thing that he'll do anything to achieve his goals(selling his body, assassinations, ect.)? It was only after he became crippled and basically lost hope that he was willing to sacrifice his friends, but afterwards any bit of kindness he's shown has been dripping with evil intentions.
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Jul 2, 2013 10:56
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Did anyone else notice the random Schierke cameo in the opening credits of the Descent, thought that was really odd considering that rest of the opening footage draws from the Golden Age Arc.
Khagan fucked around with this message at 12:16 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 12:11
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