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Sometimes I feel like devs exist in completely different worlds. The impression I get is that the market is insane(ly good) right now, just based off of what my current employer is offering to new college hires (hint: it's a lot of money). I never got the impression that getting a job as a CS grad was very hard. I mean if you had a crappy GPA, no work experience during school, and no interesting personal projects, yeah it'd probably be difficult, but still less so than for other majors in a similar position.
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Jun 24, 2013 20:48
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evensevenone posted:The fact that the job market isn't hiring entry-level people has nothing to do with CS curriculums and everything to do with the state of the market. If people can fill their needs with experienced people, they will. When the market heats up they'll have to go back to hiring less experienced people. That goes for whatever actual level of experience CS grads have. The market heated up a couple years ago. It just won't ever heat up in places that aren't one of the Big Two (or Three) until the startup bubble crashes and everyone has to go back home.
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Jun 24, 2013 21:38
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The "big two" are "a chunk of California" and NYC, right? What's the third?
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Jun 24, 2013 21:43
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Safe and Secure! posted:The "big two" are "a chunk of California" and NYC, right? What's the third? Austin. Edit: Seattle is arguably one, too, but Austin is obviously SXSW hipster-ville and there's a couple big companies down that way, so it's the cooler place to be right now (except when it's hot as gently caress). double sulk fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jun 24, 2013 |
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Jun 24, 2013 21:50
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Safe and Secure! posted:The "big two" are "a chunk of California" and NYC, right? What's the third? I'd argue Seattle area for the sweet sweet Amazon/Microsoft incubator money
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Jun 24, 2013 21:51
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I would say third place is probably split at least between Seattle, Austin, and Boston. Could probably throw in LA and Chicago in there for sheer number of jobs if not density.gucci void main posted:Edit: Seattle is arguably one, too, but Austin is obviously SXSW hipster-ville and there's a couple big companies down that way, so it's the cooler place to be right now (except when it's hot as gently caress). Cicero fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Jun 24, 2013 |
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Jun 24, 2013 22:04
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Cicero posted:The impression I get is that the market is insane(ly good) right now, just based off of what my current employer is offering to new college hires (hint: it's a lot of money). How much? And where? Doing what kind of work?
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Jun 24, 2013 22:31
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Cryolite posted:How much? And where? Doing what kind of work?
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Jun 24, 2013 22:52
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Valve also works in Washington in nearby Kirkland. Also Portland has a lot of tech companies as well.
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Jun 24, 2013 23:12
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Strong Sauce posted:Valve also works in Washington in nearby Kirkland. Also Portland has a lot of tech companies as well. Valve is currently located in Bellevue, which is also home to Sucker Punch and Bungie. Valve is probably the largest there, although I don't believe any of them employ a particularly large number of developers. I would guess that Boeing and Expedia both employ a good number of developers in the area. Also, if you ever wanted to work at Real Networks, Seattle could be the place for you.
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Jun 24, 2013 23:38
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Cicero posted:I'm not very comfortable talking specifics of $$$ here, if you give me your email (since you don't have PMs) I can share some information with you. Cryolite fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Mar 5, 2016 |
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Jun 25, 2013 00:21
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evensevenone posted:Where do you guys work that you expect the fresh-out to choose your teams git workflow? I can't speak for anyone else, but my personal interest in the issue is that I feel like it's something I need to get a job. Like I'm supposed to already have a portfolio on github, and I'm already supposed to know how to use source control. I need something to spice up my resume, I get too few responses for CS majors to be in as high demand as I hear they are.
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Jun 25, 2013 02:16
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Zero The Hero posted:I can't speak for anyone else, but my personal interest in the issue is that I feel like it's something I need to get a job. Like I'm supposed to already have a portfolio on github, and I'm already supposed to know how to use source control. I need something to spice up my resume, I get too few responses for CS majors to be in as high demand as I hear they are. In my experience, if you want to learn git, lectures are much less effective than reading through a tutorial and trying it out on your own code for a week or two. You may hit a few rough patches, but you'll pick it up quickly if you use it consistently. And then you can put it on your resume, although I'm skeptical of the idea that you need to list git on your resume to get in the door. The bigger advantage is that it's actually a really helpful tool. I think all CS students should be encouraged to learn a proper editor, source control, etc, if for no other reason then because it makes it easier to get your homework done. I just don't think it belongs on the curriculum.
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Jun 25, 2013 06:10
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Read the git book, try out a little project with it, look for answers on stack overflow (everything imaginable git-related has been asked 100x on there already), ask on #git on Freenode IRC if you're totally lost. There are so many free resources to support learning that you can't fail to master it no matter how hard you try.
DreadCthulhu fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Jun 25, 2013 |
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Jun 25, 2013 06:28
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Zero The Hero posted:I can't speak for anyone else, but my personal interest in the issue is that I feel like it's something I need to get a job. Like I'm supposed to already have a portfolio on github, and I'm already supposed to know how to use source control. I need something to spice up my resume, I get too few responses for CS majors to be in as high demand as I hear they are. I guess my point is that if it were part of the curriculum, you'd be in the same situation you are now. You'd know git, but so would everyone else. The "personal projects on github" thing is kind of a case of people putting the cart before the horse too. The point is to hire people who loving love to program and will be happy doing it every day. If someone's got a bunch of personal projects, that's a pretty drat good indication. But now everyone is convinced that they MUST have SOMETHING on Github so now Github is full of half-assed NoSQL databases written by people who don't actually know what SQL is.
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Jun 25, 2013 07:36
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return0 posted:By saying it should be taught, the implication is that something else shouldn't to accommodate it (or that a new class should be added, and that it should be this rather something more valuable from an academic perspective). return0 posted:It's not the responsibility of the university to raise industry standards about production issues like these. If industry is affected it should fund employee training schemes out of profit. This is just *wha wha* entitled bullshit from some private companies to the educational establishment, no wonder it is being eroded when smart people buy it. It's simple to teach. It's downright required for any large project, of which a competent CS program should bother with the implementation for a few. Your core argument seems to be about the 'purity' of CS and I give that zero sympathy. nachos posted:Git and SVN are different enough to where if I learned SVN in college I definitely would not have been any better prepared to learn the Git way of doing things.
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Jun 25, 2013 19:55
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greatZebu posted:In my experience, if you want to learn git, lectures are much less effective than reading through a tutorial and trying it out on your own code for a week or two. You may hit a few rough patches, but you'll pick it up quickly if you use it consistently. And then you can put it on your resume, although I'm skeptical of the idea that you need to list git on your resume to get in the door. The bigger advantage is that it's actually a really helpful tool. I didn't mean that having experience with github is what would help my resume as much as having a link to a github repository with projects that demonstrated my skill. Even if the projects weren't very good, I have to think it would separate me from all the other entry level applicants with a degree and nothing else. I can't use my GPA, my Math and Greek classes drug it down too far.
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Jun 25, 2013 21:24
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Zero The Hero posted:I can't use my GPA, my Math and Greek classes drug it down too far. Do people still list "Major GPA" or whatever? Advertising your GPA within the core classes of your degree to cover for situations like yours.
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Jun 25, 2013 21:40
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JawnV6 posted:Do people still list "Major GPA" or whatever? Advertising your GPA within the core classes of your degree to cover for situations like yours. That's what I did back in the stone age of 2004. My cumulative GPA was lovely because I'd spend all my time programming. So I had a 2.8 cumulative GPA and a 3.8 major GPA.
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Jun 25, 2013 21:44
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JawnV6 posted:You seemed in agreement that it ought to take 15 minutes to give a brief overview of the specific tools our domain has to deal with the issue of version control. What gloriously pure CS topic is getting nudged out of those 15 minutes? ME's are somehow able to wrangle their curriculum and briefly mention PDM solutions. I'm not advocating a giant course spanning years of instruction, you even quoted me saying 15 minutes. Not buying that some crucial CS concept is getting edged out there. When I quoted you saying 15 minutes I didn't think you literally meant 15 minutes. If you literally meant 15 minutes then sure. This debate started because someone referred to the absence of a "version control class" being indicative of a poor CS curriculum (while I believe that the opposite is more likely true). I did say that a tutor/TA might reasonably cover it briefly in a tutorial. What would you teach in the 15 minutes that isn't trivially googleable, highly superficial, and low value?
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Jun 25, 2013 21:53
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Somehow tons of majors have a practicum course or courses without sacrificing their purity at the supposed altar of industry.
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Jun 25, 2013 22:12
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return0 posted:What would you teach in the 15 minutes that isn't trivially googleable, highly superficial, and low value? You've spewed a bunch of words without giving a good fix on your position. I'm lead to believe you think version control is trivially googleable, highly superficial, low value, and would wholly corrupt the feeble mind of any CS student who dared gaze upon it?
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Jun 25, 2013 22:25
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JawnV6 posted:Do people still list "Major GPA" or whatever? Advertising your GPA within the core classes of your degree to cover for situations like yours. I recently applied for, uh... Northrop Grumman, and they asked for both my major GPA and my overall GPA. They claim on their website that they don't hire anyone with at least a 3.0 in both, but I heard from someone who does the hiring in the CS department that it isn't true(for programmers, anyway). My transcript actually doesn't list a Major GPA, and if it did, it would likely include my math courses that were part of my major. I'm not bad at math, but I was, when I took my Calc classes. My later math courses are all As and Bs. My GPA for my programming/computer courses only is like a 3.3 or something, which I what I put down for Northrop Grumman, but I don't feel comfortable listing it on my resume as my official "Major GPA" because it's not something I can prove. Maybe I could say something like "Graduated with a Bachelor's in Computer Science - 3.3 GPA in CS courses"
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Jun 25, 2013 22:31
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JawnV6 posted:You've spewed a bunch of words without giving a good fix on your position. I'm lead to believe you think version control is trivially googleable, highly superficial, low value, and would wholly corrupt the feeble mind of any CS student who dared gaze upon it? What you could teach in 15 minutes is trivial; what you could teach in longer may not be, but that time would be better used teaching something less frequently encountered in production.
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Jun 25, 2013 22:38
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Zero The Hero posted:My GPA for my programming/computer courses only is like a 3.3 or something, which I what I put down for Northrop Grumman, but I don't feel comfortable listing it on my resume as my official "Major GPA" because it's not something I can prove. Maybe I could say something like "Graduated with a Bachelor's in Computer Science - 3.3 GPA in CS courses" B) This is falling under the "HR hurdles" part of resume writing where you won't really be challenged on it nor should you consider it the gold standard of your core ethics. return0 posted:What you could teach in 15 minutes is trivial; what you could teach in longer may not be, but that time would be better used teaching something less frequently encountered in production. Continue cutting off your nose to spite your face though. I'm sure the lessons learned from doing a compiler without version control taste all the sweeter.
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Jun 25, 2013 22:44
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JawnV6 posted:Version control isn't "production-only". Anyone tackling a significant CS problem, even in the most sacred halls of theory, is complex enough to warrant and benefit from version control and pretending that because students can limp by without it you're doing them a favor is sickening. When I did my undergrad myself and everyone I know used version control and we had no classes on it. You will typically only encounter complex VCS issues on a large scale production system with a big team (i.e., not a coursework).
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Jun 25, 2013 22:53
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I'm interviewing with Amazon for a position in the San Francisco office. The recruiter asked me for a breakdown of my expected compensation package (base salary/bonus/equity/other), which threw me for a loop. I have literally no idea what's typical or reasonable for any of those categories other than base salary. Any advice on that? Also, any input on what salaries are like in San Francisco? I have a little over 3 years of experience if that helps.
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Jun 25, 2013 23:15
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return0 posted:When I did my undergrad myself and everyone I know used version control and we had no classes on it. Anecdotal as gently caress, but at my school no one used version control for poo poo because everyone was clusless about it and any attempts to use it proved a disaster after their first merge conflict so everything went back to passing usb sticks around and adding numbers to the end of filenames.
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Jun 25, 2013 23:17
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Hard NOP Life posted:Anecdotal as gently caress, but at my school no one used version control for poo poo because everyone was clusless about it and any attempts to use it proved a disaster after their first merge conflict so everything went back to passing usb sticks around and adding numbers to the end of filenames. How did it affect you? I guess I must concede that maybe my expectation that new hires out of college will not be well versed in vcs and associated deployment subtleties is unreasonable (or unfashionable?). Newbie programming interviews/Get a job megathread:How do I git push?
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Jun 25, 2013 23:29
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Edly posted:I'm interviewing with Amazon for a position in the San Francisco office. The recruiter asked me for a breakdown of my expected compensation package (base salary/bonus/equity/other), which threw me for a loop. I have literally no idea what's typical or reasonable for any of those categories other than base salary. Any advice on that? Also, any input on what salaries are like in San Francisco? I have a little over 3 years of experience if that helps. Cicero fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jun 25, 2013 |
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Jun 25, 2013 23:33
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return0 posted:When I did my undergrad myself and everyone I know used version control and we had no classes on it. I'm not speaking about "complex VCS issues" or requiring years of coursework on git internals. Any time you'd like to drop that strawman would be nice. I'm talking about the CS problems themselves being big enough that having something better than "main.c.LATEST.fix.4" would help. Any compiler or OS course should benefit from basic version control. edit: return0 posted:I guess I must concede that maybe my expectation that new hires out of college will not be well versed in vcs and associated deployment subtleties is unreasonable (or unfashionable?). JawnV6 fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Jun 25, 2013 |
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Jun 25, 2013 23:34
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Hard NOP Life posted:Anecdotal as gently caress, but at my school no one used version control for poo poo because everyone was clusless about it and any attempts to use it proved a disaster after their first merge conflict so everything went back to passing usb sticks around and adding numbers to the end of filenames. We used Zip disks. Remember those?! They were slightly more reliable than committing all of your code to memory and retyping it later. Slightly. Of course, when I started college, Windows ME was a new thing and Windows XP wasn't out yet.
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Jun 25, 2013 23:37
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Hard NOP Life posted:Anecdotal as gently caress, but at my school no one used version control for poo poo because everyone was clusless about it and any attempts to use it proved a disaster after their first merge conflict so everything went back to passing usb sticks around and adding numbers to the end of filenames. I really, really loving hated doing group CS projects in school because I usually ended up doing all the actual programming. I was in a class once where there was a group project, half the class was in one group, and the other half the class (5 people) was in my group. I did the whole project, the rest of my group did nothing and we all got A's. The other team had four people actually doing coding stuff and working as a team... but they weren't able to get their project to work...
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Jun 26, 2013 00:23
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lmao that was my experience as well throughout college. More anecdote time! Our school was really into doing Project Oriented Learning so most of the CS classes had group projects. In one of the classes we got to pick our own project. I teamed up with 4 other people two of which were cream of the crop CS majors and the other two were CIS majors but also were also very competent in other areas and knew some programming. I convinced them to do my idea of an online turn based D&D game using Python and Django, no one had used either before. I also taught them how to use TortoiseHg based on heresay from CoC back in 08 and some tutorials online. We didn't know everything but for the most part we figured out how it worked. One of them did the character generator and the other guy did the front end. The two CIS majors did a lot of the data entry for monster stats and game logic, not to mention all the paperwork (UML, test cases, documentation) that the professor required. I did most of the backend model work and glued everything together. We were solving all sorts of cool path finding problems in python using numpy and javascript to move our characters and monsters around the board. I'll never forget the feeling at 3 a.m. the night before it was due when I clicked on an empty square on the board and my Barbarian found the shortest path and moved up to a rat and clobered it's brains out! Suddenly the database was updated, the rat was at negative HP! Then the board on everyone's screen updated with a giant red X in the square where the rat had been. This was everyone's reaction  Of course the project was too ambitious and that was all we could manage to finish, we still needed the turn switching to have any semblance of real play. But it was enough to get us an A and a really big genuine smile from the professor when he saw what we had done. We learned a lot about integrating our code and it was all thanks to using a vcs from the start. We had a few bumps (our first few merges) but it all worked great for us in the end. And I can't help feeling that if they had introduced us to those tools sooner, group projects wouldn't have been such a pain in my first 2 years.
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Jun 26, 2013 01:19
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JawnV6 posted:A) Don't work for the MIC I didn't understand either of these responses. Can you clarify?
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Jun 26, 2013 02:26
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Zero The Hero posted:I didn't understand either of these responses. Can you clarify? Pretty sure MIC is "Military Industrial Complex".
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Jun 26, 2013 02:32
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Ah. Complaint about the job itself, or with who it supports?
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Jun 26, 2013 02:35
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Remember how I was complaining about how lovely Bloomberg's recruiting process was? Yeah. [edit] This is my response. Bridge: BURNT. quote:Hi <recruiter name>, The last line is a reference to his initial email. He said if I was unsatisfied with the recruiting process, he'd buy me lunch. New Yorp New Yorp fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Jun 26, 2013 |
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Jun 26, 2013 16:42
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Hi Good Day.
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Jun 26, 2013 17:48
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Cicero posted:Depends on your level. For an entry-level dev at a major tech company in SF, I'd guess at least something like 120/150/180-200 total comp for junior/mid/senior positions. Those numbers are very high, of course, but just take a look at rent in SF. Since no one commented on this, is this for real? Are you kidding me? 120-200 total comp for entry level? Glassdoor has averages around 160 for SE III's.
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Jun 26, 2013 17:57
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