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Regarde Aduck posted:It kind of is in that the public aims of the EDL are just there as cover for their more direct aims of hating, injuring and killing people who are not "white, British". The EDL is essentially the public face of combat 18 and his views are not combat 18. The EDL's stated public aims (inasmuch as it has any) are anti-Islamic-extremist, which they claim to be a non-racist stance and they totally have a black member and a Hindu guy to prove it. They even fly Israeli flags to prove how not-racist they are. There's also only limited crossover between Combat 18 and EDL. C18 were/are primarily London and Manchester based, EDL are predominately regional. C18 members are openly neo-nazi and have the whole Blood and Honour thing, EDL are basically football hooligans and have no real mythos/credo beyond "brown = bad". C18 put great store in secrecy and acting as a guerilla movement, EDL are street fighters and members are very open about their membership. I'm sure C18 see EDL as a rabble of idiots and EDL members see C18 as a bunch of weirdos although with cool tattoos. Even when there is crossover it comes with friction. C18's main involvement with football hooligans are with Chelsea and Millwall (The Headhunters and Treatment, if anyone's keeping score) who have long-standing and bitter rivalries with the Portsmouth, Luton and Leeds fans who make up a big chunk of the EDL numbers.
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Jun 22, 2013 18:35
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goddamnedtwisto posted:The EDL's stated public aims (inasmuch as it has any) are anti-Islamic-extremist, which they claim to be a non-racist stance and they totally have a black member and a Hindu guy to prove it. They even fly Israeli flags to prove how not-racist they are. And everyone else sees C18 as half-undercover MI5 and half-undercover TSG. 
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Jun 22, 2013 21:41
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TinTower posted:And everyone else sees C18 as half-undercover MI5 and half-undercover TSG. "Undercover"... yeah, that's why they're there...
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Jun 22, 2013 21:42
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goddamnedtwisto posted:"Undercover"... yeah, that's why they're there... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y The SPG became the TSG
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Jun 22, 2013 22:05
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Immigration is a tool or at least an excuse to lower wages because the capitalist system has lead to lower standards of living elsewhere. However, there are other ways to impose lower standards of living and / or willingness to work for lower wages and thus undercut the working class. A prime example of this would be the prison industrial complex: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%E2%80%93industrial_complex (which still includes racist elements given institutional police racism pretty much everywhere). Even if no more non-white, non-english speakers ever came into the country the 1% could whip up a fear of crime, pass harsh new legislation, embark upon prison building and create a new (or at least expanded) base for undermining worker's wages and rights. Lest you think this is only an American thing: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/10/prison-labour-tory-assault-incomes Another example would be China's regional system that rigidly enforces internal migration quotas, although that does seem to be failing at this point. It is thus in the interest of all the workers to push for universally better working conditions, wages and standards of living across the globe and for a fair and non-coercive penal system. If you push for Bangladeshi people to stay in their country with awful factory conditions and low wages without any escape or real possibility of change they will continue to undercut workers in the west. Similarly, if conditions remain awful in many parts of the world then people are going to want to do anything they can to get to and stay in a nicer part of the world, even if they are inadvertently being used by the 1% to make things worse for everyone else. Workers of the world really do need to unite. EDIT: I can't believe I forgot to mention workfare as another means of driving down wages and destroying rights. As you can see, exploiting immigrants is far from the only method the elite have of loving us over. ReV VAdAUL fucked around with this message at 09:16 on Jun 23, 2013 |
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Jun 23, 2013 09:11
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Hooray! The Jihad Watch founders are banned from the UK  http://uk.news.yahoo.com/us-anti-muslim-activists-banned-uk-151947072.html Thanks everyone who signed the petition and campaigned for it.
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Jun 26, 2013 19:49
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OK, I have a dumb question because it's from someone else. Are there any councils or townships or whatever that have banned British symbols because they offend Muslims? It's the most parroted meme I've heard from people who believe that Islam is taking over and the EDL are just bad lads.
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Jun 26, 2013 20:33
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LP97S posted:OK, I have a dumb question because it's from someone else. Are there any councils or townships or whatever that have banned British symbols because they offend Muslims? It's the most parroted meme I've heard from people who believe that Islam is taking over and the EDL are just bad lads. not something you can really prove though. only point to the lack of any recorded incidents of it happening.
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Jun 26, 2013 20:42
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LP97S posted:OK, I have a dumb question because it's from someone else. Are there any councils or townships or whatever that have banned British symbols because they offend Muslims? It's the most parroted meme I've heard from people who believe that Islam is taking over and the EDL are just bad lads. Nope, the Union flag etc aren't very popular compared to other countries, largely because of cooption by fascists for at least the last couple of decades but they certainly aren't banned. Heck a depressing number of touristy shops sell gollywogs still: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/21/golliwogs-vile-throwback-tory-mps
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Jun 26, 2013 20:46
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ReV VAdAUL posted:Nope, the Union flag etc aren't very popular compared to other countries, largely because of cooption by fascists for at least the last couple of decades but they certainly aren't banned. Heck a depressing number of touristy shops sell gollywogs still: I literally just had a conversation with two workmates this evening about why golliwogs are actually in fact racist, where they started off with, "But I still don't get why they're racist now?" "Basically a bunch of prudes in the 80s-" and then I made myself look like some kind of PC human-empathy-possessing weirdo by interrupting, so it's not as stamped out as possible yet, sadly.
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Jun 27, 2013 01:41
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8G57DHffac
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Jun 27, 2013 09:38
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LP97S posted:OK, I have a dumb question because it's from someone else. Are there any councils or townships or whatever that have banned British symbols because they offend Muslims? It's the most parroted meme I've heard from people who believe that Islam is taking over and the EDL are just bad lads. It often stems from something unrelated- A few years back a council (forget which one) told someone to take down a very tall flagpole because it breached planning permission. This was then reported to the local rag by the pole erectors as the English flag being banned because it offended muslims. The council responded, and it was cleared up, but only after the tabloids spun it around a bunch. Didn't stop the fash from then passing around the initial story as though it was a blanket ban for the entire UK. Again, with a pub "banning the england shirt". A single pub, acting on advice from the police, had a ban on football shirts of any kind to prevent rival It's a favourite tactic- I still see a facebook image going around about a case from a few years back. The image decries two "brave lads" getting a prison sentence for simply drawing a poppy on a mosque wall in response to all those muslims burning dozens of poppies and pissing on wall memorials while insulting the queen and defecating on the flag e.t.c.- The actual events had them scrawling racist abuse over a mosque, and smashing up several asian owned businesses (two of which, ironically were selling poppies) and they even admitted it was down to a hatred of Islam, were caught with texts on their phones indicating them going out "paki bashing" e.t.c. The tabloids really don't help it though, the mail et. al get to run entirely false stories like "muslim only public toilets" or "muslim only swimming pools" without any consequence. It then continually gets passed around the far right with no regard for whether it's factual or not, provided it reinforces their prejudices.
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Jun 27, 2013 09:42
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DesperateDan posted:It often stems from something unrelated- Is there some kind of single name for, or study about, this whole phenomenon of the right taking anecdotes out of context and spinning them into "POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD  "? It's close to a moral panic, but not quite the same, since moral panics are about people trangressing against norms. These kinds of hysteria always go one step further, usually with norms being allegedly made into transgressions or some kind of "discrimination against the majority" narrative. It's such a common pattern, I find myself explaining it a lot, and a shorthand name/definition would be really useful.See also: all kinds of anti-gay panics about "banning the words mother and father" which has never loving happened and yet is a hugely pervasive meme among homophobes.
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Jun 27, 2013 11:10
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Guildencrantz posted:Is there some kind of single name for, or study about, this whole phenomenon of the right taking anecdotes out of context and spinning them into "POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD It's more like a conspiracy theory, really. Taking single events and skewing the meaning, or blowing it way out of proportion to fit a narrative about a shadowy cabal of powerful people who run the world in vast, nebulous hierarchies.
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Jun 27, 2013 11:31
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Another one I see pretty often is the "ALTON TOWERS ARE MAKING A MUSLIM-ONLY DAY". In fact, the story was that a group (who happened to be mostly comprised of Muslim people, but not EXCLUSIVELY) booked use of the park on a day where it'd be shut to the public anyway, for a birthday party. But of course, add the spin to it, "TERRORISTS ARE TAKING ARE THEME PARKS"
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Jun 27, 2013 11:45
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DesperateDan posted:It often stems from something unrelated- I think it was in Liverpool, where the offending flag actually hung over Hardman Street, which goes uphill and thus it could block the view of the road, and possibly hit the double deckers which go up and down the road all day every day.
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Jun 27, 2013 12:09
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So that guy who I mentioned was Nazi saluting at the EDL rally in Colchester last month got two months in prison.
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Jun 27, 2013 12:14
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TURN IT OFF! posted:It's more like a conspiracy theory, really. Taking single events and skewing the meaning, or blowing it way out of proportion to fit a narrative about a shadowy cabal of powerful people who run the world in vast, nebulous hierarchies. It's related, and cerainly feeds into conspiracy theories but it's also not quite the same. Conspiracy theories deal with hidden, secret and obfuscated things, and they often arise to explain these non-events. Why is the Union Jack/the words mother and father/Christmas/whatever banned? Because Muslims and the left secretly want to destroy western civilization/ARE IDENTITY. But the original non-event that's being explained isn't really a conspiracy, it's out in the open, just horribly misreported/over-interpreted. My favorite example recently made waves here in Poland. Since we're the ones who steal your jobs and nobody in their right mind wants to move here, the hate is channeled against homosexuals instead of immigrants. A while ago Amsterdam passed a law where people who consistently act like dicks towards their neighbors can be forcibly moved to the outskirts of the city for a while. Now, this is a terrible law, for wholly different reasons that are beyond the scope of this thread, but the main tabloid here latched onto the fact that one of the reasons is consistently bullying for discriminatory reasons like gender, race and sexual orientation. They took the last part and ran a story about how the Dutch are "expelling people from their homes for expressing dislike of gays". Technically true to an extent, but completely out of context, making it sound like homophobes are being singled out for persecution and put in ghettos. There was no real claim of conspiracy there, they framed it as a "degenerate Westerners" story and commented on how the Dutch (always a convenient whipping boy in general) know about this and accept it because how brainwashed they are into being politically correct at all costs, blah blah blah, you know the drill. This can't really be classed as a conspiracy theory per se, they claim these things are happening completely openly, and that nobody reacts because society has gone downhill. The various anecdotes dragged out to support the "PC gone mad", "incoming Sharia law" and "rule by minorities" narratives are similar to both moral panics and conspiracy theories, but they're not quite the same thing and I'm still struggling for a precise term to describe them when I'm explaining this stuff to people. Especially since conspiracy theory is basically an insult at this point.
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Jun 27, 2013 12:33
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I wonder if a lot of the "They banned Christmas" narrative stems from a desire to stick the boot into local authorities and their "lazy, greedy" staff too. The Right hate Councils and will run with anything that makes them appear incompetent and out of touch. Of course, Councils do do things that are incompetent and out of touch, but they also do a lot of good, difficult work. Joe pot-holes-and-recycling-bins eats that poo poo up, though.
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Jun 27, 2013 17:51
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TURN IT OFF! posted:It's more like a conspiracy theory, really. Taking single events and skewing the meaning, or blowing it way out of proportion to fit a narrative about a shadowy cabal of powerful people who run the world in vast, nebulous hierarchies. Yeah, I don't know about a catch-all term, but it has a lot to do with a need for reassurance in someones views than a need for challenging them. A fresh one, hot from the fash presses!  The two on the left just got banned from entering the UK for being nasty, violence inciting bigots. The other guy over on the right, Zakir Naik, another nasty violence inciting bigot they claim is free to preach in the UK, presumably due to his adherence to the Islamic faith? Banned under the same reasons in 2010. All it would take is a simple wiki search, or putting his name into google, goddamn any level of effort to verify it would lead to it being exposed as bullshit. And yet, it's doing the rounds on many of the fash facebook groups I troll. People want reassurance to back their views, not facts.
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Jun 27, 2013 18:35
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There are so many stupid political correctness urban legends like that. Like the PC lefties at the council have banned baa baa black sheep and you aren't allowed to call it black coffee any more because of racism. I've had both of these repeated to me by otherwise reasonable non racist people. Similar thing happens with the media coverage of the EU, so we get many unbelievable news stories about the latest insane EU law that couldn't possibly be true. Remember the one about EU law mandating straight bananas?
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Jun 27, 2013 19:12
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marktheando posted:There are so many stupid political correctness urban legends like that. Like the PC lefties at the council have banned baa baa black sheep and you aren't allowed to call it black coffee any more because of racism. I've had both of these repeated to me by otherwise reasonable non racist people. The weird thing is the Baa Baa Black Sheep story *almost* happened, and it's pretty much Patient Zero for the "lefty councils political correctness gone mad" story epidemic. The story as I understand it is that at a talk at (either the TUC or the NUT conference) in the early 80s, a teacher was talking about the importance of not offending pupils with casual uses of the term black as derogatory, and to avoid the use of phrases like "the black sheep of the family". Someone asked (probably sarcastically) if "Baa Baa Black Sheep" should also be banned which sparked off a debate - which of course got stirred into the Thatcherite propaganda war against London councils who were among her most vocal opponents. Of course the rumour mill (and the fact Haringey happened to pilot a pink-bag scheme for recyclable rubbish around the same time, which of course was reported as "Loony council bans black bags because they're racist") did the rest, to the point that people almost always will swear blind that the ban on Baa Baa Black Sheep *definitely* happened, and it happened in Haringey (it also gets stirred in with the historically variable spelling of the borough, which means that the area the borough is named after is spelt Harringay, as "And they're changing the name to Haringay so they don't offend the homos") The irony is of course that Haringey were almost always the subject of these stories despite never being a particularly hard-left council, especially compared to Brent and Hackney either side of them. Some might say that the fact that they were one of the very few councils to have high-profile black politicians in positions of power (the names of whom escape me, shamefully) might have had a lot to do with their representation in the media, but that would be crazy.
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Jun 28, 2013 08:56
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80s "Loony Left" stuff is pretty hilarious with hindsight, as most of the stuff is tremendously reasonable, and exists today. The banning football shirts thing is the one that irks me because this isn't exactly uncommon. Mainly on match days, or if you're my local hipster spot, to keep out 'the wrong sort' of people by all accounts. We nearly got thrown out due to their policy banning 'large groups in football shirts' despite being made up of: a Man City shirt, a Leeds shirt, a Bolton shirt, a Port Vale shirt, a Newcastle shirt and a FC Union Berlin shirt... Hipsters there, not understaning how football hooliganism works.
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Jun 28, 2013 09:58
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Every year some newspaper intern has to trawl through every town council's Christmas events schedule to find evidence that Christmas has been banned (usually when they fail to include the word 'Christmas' in the name one of the events), then go to Tesco to take photos of Christmas puddings on the shelves in September to show how Christmas has taken over half the year
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Jun 28, 2013 10:34
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In Finland, one of the most persistent PEE CEE GONE MAD stories is related to a case when the city of Espoo commissioned a series of concrete roadblocks that were shaped like pigs (concrete roadblocks are called in Finnish by a term that literally translates to "concrete pigs") and then removed them because children were playing around them (in the middle of traffic) and they were thus considered to be dangerous. The story got out that they were removed BECAUSE MOOSLEMS (even though no Muslims in the area had complained about them) and you still get people demanding that WE FIGHT ISLAMIZATION BY REINSTALLING THE CONCRETE PIGS, leading to one blogger remarking that if you want to make sure that you instantly get a mob of angry people to demand for X, claim that Muslims are against X, because you'll always getting a bunch of morons to go DO X TO FIGHT ISLAMIZATION and so on.
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Jun 28, 2013 19:39
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Bozza posted:80s "Loony Left" stuff is pretty hilarious with hindsight, as most of the stuff is tremendously reasonable, and exists today. I wish all the people who get their pants in a bunch about banning football shirts could be teleported to Glasgow on an Old Firm day, where simply wearing blue or green could mean you get jumped.
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Jun 28, 2013 20:02
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Is there a good resource of counterarguments/statistics against the typical EDL arguments? I just had the pleasure of being on the receiving end of a 45 minute rant by my assistant manager about the evils of Islam and how the EDL are "just seeking the truth" and Robert Spencer is an "Islamic scholar", and that UAF are a gang of violent thugs (who are the only ones ever arrested at EDL protests) which is lead by a rapist. I've done a little bit of research myself but could really do with some good ammunition to use.
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Jun 28, 2013 20:06
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Greblin posted:Is there a good resource of counterarguments/statistics against the typical EDL arguments? I just had the pleasure of being on the receiving end of a 45 minute rant by my assistant manager about the evils of Islam and how the EDL are "just seeking the truth" and Robert Spencer is an "Islamic scholar", and that UAF are a gang of violent thugs (who are the only ones ever arrested at EDL protests) which is lead by a rapist. I've done a little bit of research myself but could really do with some good ammunition to use. Laugh in his face and call him a tit.
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Jun 28, 2013 20:11
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Greblin posted:Is there a good resource of counterarguments/statistics against the typical EDL arguments? I just had the pleasure of being on the receiving end of a 45 minute rant by my assistant manager about the evils of Islam and how the EDL are "just seeking the truth" and Robert Spencer is an "Islamic scholar", and that UAF are a gang of violent thugs (who are the only ones ever arrested at EDL protests) which is lead by a rapist. I've done a little bit of research myself but could really do with some good ammunition to use. Search my thread post history, one of the last times I posted in here I posted a PDF I found detailing all the EDL convictions for only the last couple of years. Guess what they have in common? They're all loving racially motivated hate crimes
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Jun 28, 2013 20:28
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Greblin posted:and that UAF are a gang of violent thugs (who are the only ones ever arrested at EDL protests) which is lead by a rapist. That last part is actually true.
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Jun 29, 2013 07:43
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That awkward moment when you see somebody you were friends with at university in some photos of an EDL march.
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Jun 29, 2013 10:38
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It appears that Tommeh has been arrested again. Was he still on bail when this happened?
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Jun 29, 2013 12:22
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Bozza posted:80s "Loony Left" stuff is pretty hilarious with hindsight, as most of the stuff is tremendously reasonable, and exists today. gently caress them. Properly got picked on by a fan once, read about hooligans, and here we are. The best thing you can do is not to give them a nickel, and convince others to do the same.
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Jun 29, 2013 14:07
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Tias posted:gently caress them. Properly got picked on by a fan once, read about hooligans, and here we are. The best thing you can do is not to give them a nickel, and convince others to do the same. Theres also an element of 'eeeurgh horrid working class people' at play with this sort of thing too, in my experience.
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Jun 29, 2013 16:29
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Dekko posted:Theres also an element of 'eeeurgh horrid working class people' at play with this sort of thing too, in my experience. he wasn't wearing it ironically enough.
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Jun 29, 2013 17:10
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As a non-football fan I must admit I am wary of football shirt wearers on weekends, especially given the greatly heightened police presence they bring. That said don't most football hooligans not wear team shirts? So a drunken football fan might become violent or unpleasant if the men who wear different colour shirts won but the straight up thugs aren't kind enough to be easily identified?
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Jun 29, 2013 19:47
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ReV VAdAUL posted:As a non-football fan I must admit I am wary of football shirt wearers on weekends, especially given the greatly heightened police presence they bring. "Firms" don't wear colours but at the same time they only fight each other any way. Drunk scarfers will probably make a lot of noise and may be obnoxious but they are generally just that. Football fans get a bad name. The idea of a "football thug" that just goes around indiscriminately beating up members of the public simply doesn't exist. e- For content - check out this police provocateur http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEI0TKkX9_o he's the guy the thin guy with the cap from today. More footage from a few years back https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh9-NeVcZZg They are actually really obvious when it's pointed out like that. Jippa fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Jun 29, 2013 |
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Jun 29, 2013 20:51
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Jippa posted:"Firms" don't wear colours but at the same time they only fight each other any way. Drunk scarfers will probably make a lot of noise and may be obnoxious but they are generally just that. That's a bit of a myth, though. Firms regularly attack other fans, attached to a firm or otherwise. You don't often hear about it, but it happens. If they're out for a fight and they can't find another firm, or the police, they'll have anyone they can. Here's the only example I can find on YouTube, but it does happen. This is Millwall fans, but they're not the only ones who do it (violent images in this clip, which starts a few seconds before the attack, please don't click if you're squeamish. Apparently the man being assaulted wasn't seriously hurt although it looks like he is). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuyGG9ck-Yc&t=3026s Apologies if this is too far off topic, I just wanted to point out that it's a myth they only hurt their own. Jippa posted:e- For content - check out this police [Tommy Robinson & Kevin Carroll of the EDL assaulted then arrested during charity walk to Woolwich] he's the guy the thin guy with the cap from today. Are those two men in the caps police? That's scandalous if they are.
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Jun 29, 2013 21:38
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Jippa posted:"Firms" don't wear colours but at the same time they only fight each other any way. The Firms only fighting each other and never bashing randoms has been ridiculously romanticised since before the banning orders kicked in. It's an interesting bit of history that firm-on-firm rucks happened but there was constant accompanying violence and intimidation.
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Jun 29, 2013 21:39
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My point really is that it isn't the "MO" of the firms. I absolutely agree that poo poo happens but that isn't what they set out to do. The idea of the sort of 'clock work orange' type of thug doesn't exist, that was really my point. The fatter guy in the red isn't, it's the thin guy in the blue and the cap behind him. Watch the video again, he is blatant.
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Jun 29, 2013 21:51
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