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I read a wiki summary of the Dark Angels. Their big shameful secret is that some of their number fell to Chaos during the Horus Heresy. So what? Every Chapter save the Grey Knights has lost members to Chaos. Can anybody knowledgeable on the chaps explain to me the deeper reason?
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Jun 30, 2013 22:35
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Baron Bifford posted:I read a wiki summary of the Dark Angels. Their big shameful secret is that some of their number fell to Chaos during the Horus Heresy. So what? Every Chapter save the Grey Knights has lost members to Chaos. Can anybody knowledgeable on the chaps explain to me the deeper reason? The Dark Angels are hugely autistic and obsessive over honor and integrity. Plus they love SECRETS. (I remain convinced the Lion is written so as to have some form of autism. He's too weird not to).
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Jun 30, 2013 23:10
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VanSandman posted:The Dark Angels are hugely autistic and obsessive over honor and integrity. Plus they love SECRETS. (I remain convinced the Lion is written so as to have some form of autism. He's too weird not to). Isn't it implicitly implied that the Lion himself was a traitor? Given that he never threw in on either side during the heresy. There's all kinds of dickery going on with the Caliban influx and the Legion is really split after he takes over.
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Jun 30, 2013 23:54
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Baron Bifford posted:I read a wiki summary of the Dark Angels. Their big shameful secret is that some of their number fell to Chaos during the Horus Heresy. So what? Every Chapter save the Grey Knights has lost members to Chaos. Can anybody knowledgeable on the chaps explain to me the deeper reason? Everyone's lost the odd space marine to chaos. But half the entire Dark Angel Legion fell. That's a pretty big deal and if widely known would put them squarely in 'gently caress it, kill them all to be sure' territory in the eyes of the rest of the Imperium. The Horus Heresy wrecked the entire Imperium. The idea that there might be some systemic taint or weakness in a Space Marine Chapter and it's successors that might make them fall as a group would be absolutely terrifying.
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Jul 1, 2013 00:05
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Demiurge4 posted:Isn't it implicitly implied that the Lion himself was a traitor? Given that he never threw in on either side during the heresy. There's all kinds of dickery going on with the Caliban influx and the Legion is really split after he takes over. Honestly, I'm inclined to believe there's some infighting at Games Workshop over what exactly is going on with the Lion since that's a pretty crucial part of the Heresy storyline, and up until recently the whole ambiguity over the traitor/loyal thing was the DA's schtick. Some authors probably want the Lion to be disloyal, others want him to be Rogal Dorn the 2nd and less interesting and have Luthor be the corrupt one. VanSandman fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 00:09
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I kinda took the Dark Angels to be similar to the Alpha Legion in that most of their loyalty lies one way, but with elements leaning the other. And it's kept ambiguous for flavoring. Also another point supporting it being intentional would be the hints at a schism between Alpharius and Omegon and the suspicions between Lionel and Luther. First and last legion. Stuff like that. Lead Psychiatry fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 01:09
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VanSandman posted:The Dark Angels are hugely autistic and obsessive over honor and integrity. Plus they love SECRETS. (I remain convinced the Lion is written so as to have some form of autism. He's too weird not to). Demiurge4 posted:Isn't it implicitly implied that the Lion himself was a traitor? Given that he never threw in on either side during the heresy. There's all kinds of dickery going on with the Caliban influx and the Legion is really split after he takes over.
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Jul 1, 2013 01:28
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I always saw the secret that The Lion wasn't necessarily falling to Chaos, but a kind of opportunistic 'pick the winning side' type that decided Horus was going to win, then when he didn't he was like o shi actually uh double triple secret nono on all you dudes, we were totally for the Emperor. That would be better (to me) than him just plain being chaosy, and actually would fit how they are portraying him in the current heresy novels (secretive, cunning, collecting his own powerbase [various artifacts and whatever like that evil cube]) and waiting to pick a side.
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Jul 1, 2013 06:02
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I always liked the idea that the DA split was entirely their own, Chaos free thing. Just a normal civil war that got kicked off when weakness was sensed during the Heresy. The lack of discipline and everyones lovely actions would make them want to hide it, but what went down was distinct from the Horusy Heresy or Bardab War or the Alpha Legion in that this was just bitter and power hungry men fighting to the knife for ego and glory rather than anything Chaos did.
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Jul 1, 2013 06:15
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Jerkface posted:I always saw the secret that The Lion wasn't necessarily falling to Chaos, but a kind of opportunistic 'pick the winning side' type that decided Horus was going to win, then when he didn't he was like o shi actually uh double triple secret nono on all you dudes, we were totally for the Emperor. I think there's also a possibility that when he became aware of the Chaos stuff, he was just like  "Rah rah for the EmperorDo not mind the Marines being tortured behind the curtain". Y'know, switching due to horror/disgust at what the rebelling Legions had become, as opposed to switching only once Horus's loss became evident. quote:That would be better (to me) than him just plain being chaosy, and actually would fit how they are portraying him in the current heresy novels (secretive, cunning, collecting his own powerbase [various artifacts and whatever like that evil cube]) and waiting to pick a side. Cube? What book was this mentioned in?
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Jul 1, 2013 06:15
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UberJumper posted:However it would be interesting that if at the end of the gaunts ghosts books, it gets revealed that gaunt was more or less full of poo poo and the tanith were not the unstoppable gods that the books portray them as. Hence why aside from a few battles they somehow kept getting the short end of the stick for commendation. Wasn't it implied in one of the books or interviews with Abnett that Gaunt and his men are pretty much fueled by the Emperor/same powers that fuels his saints or the sisters of battle? I always figured it was the best way to explain how they could take down marines or remain untouched by Chaos. Jerkface posted:I always saw the secret that The Lion wasn't necessarily falling to Chaos, but a kind of opportunistic 'pick the winning side' type that decided Horus was going to win, then when he didn't he was like o shi actually uh double triple secret nono on all you dudes, we were totally for the Emperor. The newer fluff kind of retcons the earlier HH portrayal of the Lion. He's now suppose to be 100% loyal but since he isn't really good at anything other than war, even his closest supporters and advisors don't really know where his loyalty lies or what he wants to do.
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Jul 1, 2013 07:43
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Alchenar posted:Everyone's lost the odd space marine to chaos. But half the entire Dark Angel Legion fell. That's a pretty big deal and if widely known would put them squarely in 'gently caress it, kill them all to be sure' territory in the eyes of the rest of the Imperium.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:11
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Kegslayer posted:Wasn't it implied in one of the books or interviews with Abnett that Gaunt and his men are pretty much fueled by the Emperor/same powers that fuels his saints or the sisters of battle? I always figured it was the best way to explain how they could take down marines or remain untouched by Chaos. I don't remember the specifics, but in Ghostmaker, Larkin has one of his fits while he's supposed to take out a target. We get everything from his point of view, and he's hallucinating something about an angel or saint watching over him.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:22
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An older Dark Angels codex says that the Lion is alive but comatose, watched over by a race of xenos called Watchers who presumably can hide his existence because they're blanks. That can't be the secret, because it seems none of the Dark Angels know about it. Is this still canon, though?
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Jul 1, 2013 08:30
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Baron Bifford posted:After 10,000 years, they still act as if the Horus Heresy was last month. The Age of Apostasy was also A Thing. Horus wasn't the last Space Marine to lead an invasion of Terra.
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Jul 1, 2013 09:58
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Alchenar posted:The Age of Apostasy was also A Thing. Horus wasn't the last Space Marine to lead an invasion of Terra. Yeah, according to the Lexicanum the Imperium only fully recovered from the Horus Heresy shortly before the Age of Apostasy, and then only recovered from that shortly before the first Tyranid incursion. Which is entirely thematically appropriate and hilarious. VanSandman fucked around with this message at 11:53 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 11:26
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Baron Bifford posted:An older Dark Angels codex says that the Lion is alive but comatose, watched over by a race of xenos called Watchers who presumably can hide his existence because they're blanks. That can't be the secret, because it seems none of the Dark Angels know about it. Is this still canon, though? It's still true but I think the chapter just has a lot of secrets that it hides from everyone. Your average Imperial knows nothing except that the chapter is the first and extremely loyal but finds it weird that they and their successor chapters are called the Unforgiven. A guard general or Space Marine captain might be aware that the Dark Angels have a history of suddenly leaving an engagement or have a higher rate of friendly fire when fighting Chaos. The Inquisition suspect something more but despite numerous investigations, have found nothing. A Dark Angel knows that the chapter are especially hunting certain Chaos Marines and as they are initiated deeper and deeper into its secrets, they end up getting promoted to the Deathwing and have full knowledge of the chapter's tainted history during the Heresy. The Chapter Master knows that Luther is alive deep inside the Rock as well as the true nature of the Watchers. Luther and the Watchers know that their primarch is still alive even deeper with the Rock and will reawaken in the last days. I'm also pretty sure that the Watchers are not blanks. They're friendly psychic immortal/invulnerable xenos that are anti-Chaos and have chosen to aid the Dark Angels.
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Jul 1, 2013 14:34
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Kegslayer posted:I'm also pretty sure that the Watchers are not blanks. They're friendly psychic immortal/invulnerable xenos that are anti-Chaos and have chosen to aid the Dark Angels. You might be right. They have a pic of a Librarian standing peacefully next to a Watcher (he needs a watcher because Space Marines never put away their weapons and armor). He wouldn't be able to do that if they were blanks (unless they are a special kind of blank who can control their powers).
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Jul 1, 2013 15:18
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I just started tearing through the 40K universe a few weeks ago, and have since finished the following: -Eisenhorn Omnibus -Ravenor Omnibus -Iron Warriors Omnibus -Space Wolves Omnibus I'm going to try the Ultramarines series and Gaunt's Ghosts next, I think, but one part of the Iron Warriors Omnibus that I thought was awesome was the Ultramarines Psyker, Corwin. He has a bit part in the book but, as somebody who always plays clerics in every game ever, I was wondering if there are any series that have this type of character as a lead player. Any suggestions?
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Jul 1, 2013 17:38
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mesc posted:He has a bit part in the book but, as somebody who always plays clerics in every game ever, I was wondering if there are any series that have this type of character as a lead player. Any suggestions? The Emperor's Gift is is told from the first person view of an insane psyker and is an incredible book. Features the Grey Knights, a chapter made up entirely of specialist demon-hunting psykers.
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Jul 1, 2013 18:36
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ed balls balls man posted:The Emperor's Gift is is told from the first person view of an insane psyker and is an incredible book. Features the Grey Knights, a chapter made up entirely of specialist demon-hunting psykers. Good timing! Paperback is released tomorrow - pre-ordering now! edit: and the Grey Knights Omnibus, the Ultramarines Omnibus, second Space Wolves Omnibus, and Pariah. Basically my wife and I are the coolest kids on the train every day, with her playing her Animal Crossing 3DSXL and me reading Warhammer pew pew laser fiction. Menstrual Show fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 18:49
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mesc posted:Good timing! Paperback is released tomorrow - pre-ordering now! Just be warned this Grey Knights book is a kind of a reboot since the last Codex release, so just forget about the Ben Counter novels (fluffwise I mean, I did like the first one).
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Jul 1, 2013 19:04
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ed balls balls man posted:Just be warned this Grey Knights book is a kind of a reboot since the last Codex release, so just forget about the Ben Counter novels (fluffwise I mean, I did like the first one). Noted. This is the beauty of buying these books used on Amazon, can find the Omnibusses for 2-8 bucks for the most part.
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Jul 1, 2013 19:40
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The Tau have a bunch of psychic races in their empire, such as the Nicassar. They don't seem to have any problems with Chaos. Neither do the Orks. I've never seen a Chaos Ork (and I'm glad - Orks are more fun when "pure"). I take it then the Chaos Gods are only interested in humans and Eldar?
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Jul 1, 2013 21:14
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Baron Bifford posted:The Tau have a bunch of psychic races in their empire, such as the Nicassar. They don't seem to have any problems with Chaos. Neither do the Orks. I've never seen a Chaos Ork (and I'm glad - Orks are more fun when "pure"). I take it then the Chaos Gods are only interested in humans and Eldar? In regards to the Orks, it's more that they don't care about Chaos.
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Jul 1, 2013 21:26
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Baron Bifford posted:The Tau have a bunch of psychic races in their empire, such as the Nicassar. They don't seem to have any problems with Chaos. Neither do the Orks. I've never seen a Chaos Ork (and I'm glad - Orks are more fun when "pure"). I take it then the Chaos Gods are only interested in humans and Eldar? If you get into the RPG books, there's actually more than a few alien races that have individuals that have turned to Chaos, or the race as a general whole worships Chaos. It's just that they're not as visible as the other races in the setting. For the Tau, I'm not sure what the justifications would be, but despite their relative inexperience with Chaos, I'd suspect the Ethereals are canny to what's going on and are involved in secret efforts to root out Chaos in the Tau Empire. Orcs don't fall to Chaos per se because the Chaos Gods know that Gork 'n Mork'll krump 'em if dey trys anyfing tricksey wit da orkz.
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Jul 1, 2013 22:05
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Pyrolocutus posted:If you get into the RPG books, there's actually more than a few alien races that have individuals that have turned to Chaos, or the race as a general whole worships Chaos. It's just that they're not as visible as the other races in the setting. I remember reading that Tau have really tiny souls that daemons usually just ignore. Could just be fan conjuncture, especially considering Farsight's daemonblade.
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Jul 1, 2013 22:20
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A little late to the discussion but I always liked to think(I'm a little biased since I love the DA) the Lion wasn't necessarily waiting to see who the victor would be so much as he was trying to figure out who was in the "right". The Betrayer does a great job with Angron(with his criticisms of the Emperor) showing that the Imperium had no qualms about committing genocide or causing the extinction of countless Xenos races simply because they didn't submit(peaceful or not) or weren't human. If the whole chapter is losely based on the idea of chivalry, the idea that he was waiting to see who wins seems to be pretty dishonorable and in conflict with what is considered "knightly" values.
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Jul 1, 2013 22:40
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Romantic chivalry and actual historical chivalry are very different. The latter is much more pragmatic and mean.
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Jul 1, 2013 22:57
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Which is sort-of touched on in the first DA heresy book (which I liked a bunch, screw y'all haters). The Lion seems to possess enough personal power to try and implement romantic chivalry onto a formerly realistic chivalry society.
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Jul 1, 2013 22:59
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Baron Bifford posted:Romantic chivalry and actual historical chivalry are very different. The latter is much more pragmatic and mean. Could you explain at all? I really didn't know there was even a difference or categories.
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Jul 1, 2013 23:05
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Romantic chivalry=bow to an opponent before jousting Real, lived chivalry=have your footmen poison the guys drink before hand. Try reading the the crusader kings thread, and contrast it with la morte d'arthur
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Jul 1, 2013 23:25
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Polpoto posted:Could you explain at all? I really didn't know there was even a difference or categories. Think of it like this: real chivalry was dudes on horses oppressing/murdering/raping because they had power and peasants did not, romantic chivalry is what they wanted recorded in the history books.
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Jul 1, 2013 23:46
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Thinking of it this way. Romantic chivalry is a knight in shining armour. Real chilvary is a knight covered in poo poo murdering. King Arthur vs Game of Thrones
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Jul 1, 2013 23:58
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Polpoto posted:A little late to the discussion but I always liked to think(I'm a little biased since I love the DA) the Lion wasn't necessarily waiting to see who the victor would be so much as he was trying to figure out who was in the "right". The Betrayer does a great job with Angron(with his criticisms of the Emperor) showing that the Imperium had no qualms about committing genocide or causing the extinction of countless Xenos races simply because they didn't submit(peaceful or not) or weren't human. If the whole chapter is losely based on the idea of chivalry, the idea that he was waiting to see who wins seems to be pretty dishonorable and in conflict with what is considered "knightly" values. I don't know, I liked the idea that the Primarchs, though they were essentially demigods, were largely shaped by their environment. Guilliman grows up in a noble and just utopia and so is able to expand that utopia to the 500 worlds of Ultramar. However, El'Johnson and Curze had to live alone and survive in the wilderness as children. Kurze grows up in a world of murder and rape and becomes incredibly jaded unable to connect with anyone at all. El'Johnson grows up in a knightly order so he's well skilled at war but is as unlikable and unrelatable as Curze off the battlefield. Basically El'Johnson is the biggest goon  .
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Jul 2, 2013 00:17
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VanSandman posted:Think of it like this: real chivalry was dudes on horses oppressing/murdering/raping because they had power and peasants did not, romantic chivalry is what they wanted recorded in the history books. Uh, more like real chivalry was knights being nice to each other because a lot of their fights weren't personal but were more about the politics of their lords, and ransoming a dude instead of executing him means that it's more likely him or his friends will do the same to you if you end up being captured next time. Same with things like taking fight breaks so everyone can take a breather or negotiate without getting jumped while your guard is down. Because you mostly move in the same circles and you're probably going to see a guy and his extended family a lot in the area, and you don't want to be known as "Jon of Flanders, that untrustworthy rear end in a top hat who stabbed uncle Fred while they were working out a truce." Romantic chivalry was about a knight being honorable and pious and protecting the weak and stuff.
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Jul 2, 2013 02:27
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Kegslayer posted:I don't know, I liked the idea that the Primarchs, though they were essentially demigods, were largely shaped by their environment. Guilliman grows up in a noble and just utopia and so is able to expand that utopia to the 500 worlds of Ultramar. Specifically, Curze believes that fear and force alone and not love, justice, or propriety is what keeps people in line and creates a society. And he's of course tragically wrong. Guilliman, on the other hand, thinks that law and order (backed of course by force and fear) are necessary to build a lasting society. Same with Dorn, except his guiding ideal is arguably love and devotion. Not quite sure what El'Jonson's would be. Maybe it's honor and propriety. The Order and later the legion seems pretty stiff and withdrawn in its depictions. Versus, say, the raucous camaraderie of Russ's legion. Instead of Curze, who reacts to his structureless upbringing by believing that propriety is meaningless and only fear matters, El'Jonson overreacts the other way so that he puts rigid propriety and order above even justice or brotherhood. So perhaps the Fallen might not all be bad, but since Jonson is a total sperg, no matter why they did it they broke the rules and now they must all be punished or else our honor is besmirched forever and we'll never be clean. I realize that I've already put more thought into this than all of GW when they were making this stuff up but, well, a) death of the author bitch and b) I really don't want to work right now and would rather sperg about super space mans. Also, since it was mentioned above, I would play the hell out of a Crusader Kings 40k. Petitioning for crusades, marrying off a niece to the royal family of a nearby agriworld, backing Rogue Traders while managing the approval of the local ecclesiarchy, and setting up the scion of House Flaubert to be the next sub-sector governor. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 02:56
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Cream_Filling posted:I really don't want to work right now and would rather sperg about super space mans. I think we all feel like that occasionally. It's why we're here after all.
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Jul 2, 2013 03:14
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Speaking of the Lion, exactly what trait did he inherit from the emperor? Since i am pretty sure i remember reading at some point that all the primarchs more or less were the embodiment of some trait of the emperor.
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Jul 2, 2013 04:54
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UberJumper posted:Speaking of the Lion, exactly what trait did he inherit from the emperor? Since i am pretty sure i remember reading at some point that all the primarchs more or less were the embodiment of some trait of the emperor. I don't think it's as plainly stated as for others, but I'd guess that it's strategic/martial genius or something like that. Which fits into the characterization of him as a brilliant military commander with terrible interpersonal skills. Versus someone like Guilliman, whose forte is more empire-building than it is purely martially focused like the Lion is.
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Jul 2, 2013 05:26
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