|
Jippa posted:My point really is that it isn't the "MO" of the firms. I absolutely agree that poo poo happens but that isn't what they set out to do. The idea of the sort of 'clock work orange' type of thug doesn't exist, that was really my point. I've no idea if that guy's a provocateur or what but he's clearly hit first, being pushed twice and then shoved into the wall. They could easily have arrested the both of them for that assault and probably would have if the guy hadn't taken a swing. Also your assertion that there's no such thing as a football thug who indiscriminately attacks people is just plain as wrong as it gets and makes me wonder if you've ever actually attended a (non-Premiership) match, because there's loving hundreds of them at every ground. goddamnedtwisto fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Jun 30, 2013 |
#
?
Jun 30, 2013 00:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 16:04 |
|
|
banning football colours isn't just about violence anyway. similarly to "no stag / hen parties" signs there's an assumption that they'll probably take drunkenness too far, be too loud, sing, take over the pub, etc that'll annoy or scare away other patrons. (not that that's a fair assumption to tar every group with)
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2013 10:04
|
|
|
Lee Rigby Murder, Swastikas, BNP & UKIP Daubed On Muslim Graves. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...26pLid%3D191739 quote:Muslim graves have been defaced with swastikas and phrases including “Lee Rigby murder” and “white power” in a cemetery in south Wales. Article continues in the link and more photos aswell.   Having to debate with people on facebook about this who go (abriged/edited) "oh golly gosh this can't have been done by BNP and UKIP members most likely just some thick <slur>". 
Fluo fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Jul 4, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 00:06
|
|
|
No you see, it was the Muslims or the Loony Lefties that did this to make EDL/UKIP look bad
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 08:28
|
|
|
I think that a lot of big team fans who have only ever followed football since sky bought the top flight have been insulated from the realities of a poorly policed match day. Stoke has calmed down a lot since the early 2000s but I used to go to home and away games and both Cardiff and Millwall had been in clashes with Stoke so bad that they weren't allowed away fan allocations anymore. Also wearing the wrong kit into the wrong pub will cause trouble, something like a Vale strip in the wrong pubs in Stoke for instance. The idea its 'to keep the poors out' might fly for hipster bars in London but if you kept the poors out of a bar in Stoke then you have no customers at all.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 08:51
|
|
|
Hooligans on their way to an off (arranged fight) will not wear team colours. Here in Denmark they will wear certain clothing brands like Stone Island to identify one another, but that's it - and they will never fight anyone nor included in the arrangement, barring police interference or non-coordinated ambush. That said, yes, football fans drink, are loud and have fun. God forbid we let those people enter a party.. Seems to be the whole debacle was more about hipsters being too scared of people who are not pretentious twats not in on the proper ironic way to not party, here.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 09:04
|
|
|
At least they're civilized brawls in Scandinavia. I mean, just look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6wjMj24Lp0
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 09:27
|
|
|
Tias posted:That said, yes, football fans drink, are loud and have fun. God forbid we let those people enter a party.. Seems to be the whole debacle was more about hipsters being too scared of people who are not pretentious twats not in on the proper ironic way to not party, here. Oh come the gently caress on. Everyone doesn't find the atmosphere of a matchday sports bar very appealing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 09:38
|
|
|
Ras Het posted:Oh come the gently caress on. Everyone doesn't find the atmosphere of a matchday sports bar very appealing. The easy solution to that 'problem' is to not go on matchdays to a sports bar then.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 09:48
|
|
|
Total Meatlove posted:The easy solution to that 'problem' is to not go on matchdays to a sports bar then. .. yes, but I'm not sure how that's relevant to pubs banning club colours.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 09:59
|
|
|
It's relevant because sports bar are sportsbar. They do not cater to people who are uncomfortable with large amounts of people shouting at the television and each other. Even if your don't own a sports bar, banning people in team colours does nothing to guarentee an rear end in a top hat-free evening, and discriminates against football fans.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 10:04
|
|
|
We don't really have sports bars here in the UK though do we? Not in the sense that they do in the US for example.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 10:23
|
|
|
Serotonin posted:We don't really have sports bars here in the UK though do we? Not in the sense that they do in the US for example. There's a few of them, and they're loving terrible.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 10:27
|
|
|
Serotonin posted:We don't really have sports bars here in the UK though do we? Not in the sense that they do in the US for example. We certainly do in Sunny Croydon (tm) goddamnedtwisto posted:There's a few of them, and they're loving terrible. They are quite good if you want to watch some sport and have a drink in a place with some atmosphere.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 10:27
|
|
|
Serotonin posted:We don't really have sports bars here in the UK though do we? Not in the sense that they do in the US for example. Are you saying English pubs don't have television sets and show games when they're on? If so, England isn't anything like I imagined 
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 10:28
|
|
|
We had one in Bristol but it shut down. Much rather watch it in a pub anyway.Tias posted:Are you saying English pubs don't have television sets and show games when they're on? If so, England isn't anything like I imagined They do but they're not the same thing as a US-style sports bar
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 10:29
|
|
|
Tias posted:Are you saying English pubs don't have television sets and show games when they're on? If so, England isn't anything like I imagined No we do, I think Serotonin means bars specifically for watching sports, theres some pubs which cater to say football fans, but there aren't a huge number of pubs/bars that are sports non stop.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 10:30
|
|
|
In more news of people being stupid, a member of the Oxford debating society has asked Stephen Yaxley-Lennon/Tommeh to participate in a debate on nationalism. Sources are unclear on whether the motion he'd table would be 'kick all the brown people out' or 'kick all the brown people out'.quote:Oxford University's debating society has invited controversial EDL leader Tommy Robinson to debate on nationalism amid concerns over "endangering" students. At least the idiot who suggested it sounds like he's going to get a kicking from the society's senior members. What, did he think the Muslim/non-white participants at previous debates were insufficiently intimidated or something?
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 10:36
|
|
|
Pubs and sport bars aside there has been a vilification of supporting football. I'm not a football fan myself- it leaves me cold. My mate is. We've been to a few lively demos together back in the day. He contrasted the policing of football matches and demonstrations by pointing out how loving soft and polite the police are at demos when it gets a bit rough.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 10:47
|
|
|
Tias posted:It's relevant because sports bar are sportsbar. They do not cater to people who are uncomfortable with large amounts of people shouting at the television and each other. Even if your don't own a sports bar, banning people in team colours does nothing to guarentee an rear end in a top hat-free evening, and discriminates against football fans. Who does a pub that happens to have a few TVs cater towards then? Isn't that the whole point of the ban, "feel free to watch the match, but no Fan Culture"? Like, vague class considerations aside, I totally support that attitude. And I say this as someone who watches football religiously.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 11:41
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:"No speakers are ever given a platform nor are their views ever endorsed by the society or any of the individuals in it." But... the invitation to speak is the platform, isn't it?
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 12:08
|
|
|
Ras Het posted:Who does a pub that happens to have a few TVs cater towards then? Isn't that the whole point of the ban, "feel free to watch the match, but no Fan Culture"? Like, vague class considerations aside, I totally support that attitude. And I say this as someone who watches football religiously. I think "No Colours" policies are either snobbish "Ugh no working-class people in here" or in Croydon, where Palace and Millwall fans trash the place at least twice a year, although obviously that's excluding pubs in the immediate vicinity of grounds with a history of trouble who have the no colours policy for pretty sound safety reasons. I don't think I've ever seen a pub that shows football but has a "No colours" policy outside of the aforementioned Croydon town centre though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 12:10
|
|
|
Crashbee posted:But... the invitation to speak is the platform, isn't it? Well, yes. Unless the debate plan was to gag Yaxley-Lennon and tie him to a chair whilst the grown-ups got to debating, I guess.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 12:13
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:In more news of people being stupid, a member of the Oxford debating society has asked Stephen Yaxley-Lennon/Tommeh to participate in a debate on nationalism. Sources are unclear on whether the motion he'd table would be 'kick all the brown people out' or 'kick all the brown people out'. I'm loving all the grammatical errors in there. Is the HuffPo just bad at reporting, or all the Oxford Union representatives just poo poo at using proper sentences? goddamnedtwisto posted:I think "No Colours" policies are either snobbish "Ugh no working-class people in here" or in Croydon, where Palace and Millwall fans trash the place at least twice a year, although obviously that's excluding pubs in the immediate vicinity of grounds with a history of trouble who have the no colours policy for pretty sound safety reasons. There's a No Colours pub in Edinburgh that I think shows football (can't check, it's also Over 25s Only) and looks to be a typical working-class football type pub. Only place I've seen do it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 12:18
|
|
|
Strom Cuzewon posted:I'm loving all the grammatical errors in there. Is the HuffPo just bad at reporting, or all the Oxford Union representatives just poo poo at using proper sentences? Those were tweets from students that HuffPo reposted. People tend to be a bit more grammatically lazy when they're tweeting.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 12:47
|
|
|
Strom Cuzewon posted:I'm loving all the grammatical errors in there. Is the HuffPo just bad at reporting, or all the Oxford Union representatives just poo poo at using proper sentences? Could be the same situation as Croydon maybe?
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 12:48
|
|
|
Not sure if this is hilarious or tragic http://edlnews.co.uk/index.php/latest-news/latest-news/1141-edl-s-secret-templar-group-run-by-child-rapist Looks like high profile EDL activists are cosplaying the Crusades in the woods under the leadership of a convicted paedophile.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 13:04
|
|
|
Serotonin posted:Not sure if this is hilarious or tragic  What are you talking about that guy is white he can't possibly be a paedophile everyone knows only muslims are paedos cos of sharia law saying they have to be and since it's impossible for white guys to be muslims that guy is clearly not a paedophile 
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 13:26
|
|
|
mfcrocker posted:We had one in Bristol but it shut down. Much rather watch it in a pub anyway. We're talking way past each other, then. I've never been in USA, but here in Denmark, over half the bars/pubs have TVs, and will at the very least put on a game if a patron requests it. Certain establishments will make a bigger deal out of it, buying widescreens and hosting special cup evenings, but it's a pretty common idea. Incidentally, none of these places ban team colours, and the world hasn't ended yet. Fans of hostile teams keep to their own places, or go without colours and have fun somewhere else.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 14:05
|
|
|
Serotonin posted:Not sure if this is hilarious or tragic Slenan has been diagnosed as a psychopath, but I'm sure if we just sat him down with a cup of tea, he'd change his mind. Right, Spacedad?
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 14:47
|
|
|
Tias posted:We're talking way past each other, then. I've never been in USA, but here in Denmark, over half the bars/pubs have TVs, and will at the very least put on a game if a patron requests it. Certain establishments will make a bigger deal out of it, buying widescreens and hosting special cup evenings, but it's a pretty common idea. Well, then it's basically the same as in the UK. Like someone said in most pubs the idea is "feel free to watch the game, but we don't want any trouble". Pub landlords (unless they are running a place that specifically caters to fans) generally want as much business as possible, so they try to keep a balanced atmosphere that includes fans without scaring off pretentious hipsters or whatever. Usually the balance is tipped towards the new customers and their prejudices, since the patronage of locals is somewhat more assured. It's not necessarily reflecting the landlords' personal views when they make the problematic assumption that colours = "trouble": rather, their business model. I suppose they focus on apparel because it makes loyalties really apparent, though it seems arbitrary because loudly commentating on a game and cheering for your side has the same effect, yet I've never seen anyone pull up their customers for doing that. This is all assuming it's in an area that doesn't have the precedent to justify paranoia about hooliganism. TL;DR there is definitely classist subtext but it's not exactly simple.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 17:23
|
|
|
Weldon Pemberton posted:Well, then it's basically the same as in the UK. Like someone said in most pubs the idea is "feel free to watch the game, but we don't want any trouble". Pub landlords (unless they are running a place that specifically caters to fans) generally want as much business as possible, so they try to keep a balanced atmosphere that includes fans without scaring off pretentious hipsters or whatever. Usually the balance is tipped towards the new customers and their prejudices, since the patronage of locals is somewhat more assured. It's not necessarily reflecting the landlords' personal views when they make the problematic assumption that colours = "trouble": rather, their business model. I suppose they focus on apparel because it makes loyalties really apparent, though it seems arbitrary because loudly commentating on a game and cheering for your side has the same effect, yet I've never seen anyone pull up their customers for doing that. This is all assuming it's in an area that doesn't have the precedent to justify paranoia about hooliganism. Good, we're on the same page then! For a moment there I thought England had stopped caring about football, and then what has come of the world? /footballchat. So, in Denmark there's this immigrant who is actually a pedophile, convicted of raping a ten-year old - and now the racist knobs who tried to make a foothold in Århus up in arms again, arranging a demonstration last week with the help and attendance of Danish fascists formerly with the Danish Defense League. This could be bad, if they can use to mobilize a lot of the fence-sitting racists who usually won't associate themselves with the fascists, and it seems they will.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 17:49
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:In more news of people being stupid, a member of the Oxford debating society has asked Stephen Yaxley-Lennon/Tommeh to participate in a debate on nationalism. Sources are unclear on whether the motion he'd table would be 'kick all the brown people out' or 'kick all the brown people out'. It's not out of character for them, the Oxford debating society has a long history of inviting complete pieces of poo poo and outright fascists to speak at their debates: Nixon, Reagan, Thatcher, Jerry Falwell, Nick Griffin, NF leader and BNP founder John Tyndall, Holocaust denier David Irving, Scott Lively (Lively authored ‘The Pink Swastika’, a book blaming the holocaust on gays, and is an ardent supporter of Uganda’s planned death penalty for gays)...
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 18:48
|
|
|
goddamnedtwisto posted:Could be the same situation as Croydon maybe? Unless it's a team pub there's no colours in any pub or club in Glasgow. You'll rarely even get away with wearing one in a pub that's all Celtic fans as regulars, it has to be a proper team bar. That said, I've never been in a bar on any match day that didn't have a TV going with it on.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2013 21:02
|
|
|
You're more then welcome to wear your filthy Hun colours in my pub in Aberdeen, but please pay attention to the framed picture of the Gothenburg Greats over there and the sign on the wall forbidding all mention of England 1966. The SDL were in Aberdeen today, on the 25th anniversary of the Piper Alpha disaster. They were cordoned off while their spokesperson with the heaviest Leeds (I think it was, at least) accent I've ever heard kept asking us why we were all being quiet. He may have failed to notice the massive LET US MOURN IN PEACE banner we were displaying, but oh well.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 20:50
|
|
|
Going over the thread about New Atheism and its relationship with Islam, I've read a lot of articles about this movement's opinions on Muslims, some even-handed and some not so much. With that in mind, I really have to ask: the gently caress is Pat Condell's deal? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN5TgItGWlk He's made a Youtube video crying over the fact that no, the English Defense League aren't racists (and aren't even far-right!), and that they're being unfairly victimized by groups like UAF.  It's really bothering me that we have people who ostensibly care so much about human rights that of course they have to criticize hateful ideologies like Islam, yet also have zero compunctions about jumping into bed with neo-nazis.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2013 11:27
|
|
|
Bedlamdan posted:Going over the thread about New Atheism and its relationship with Islam, I've read a lot of articles about this movement's opinions on Muslims, some even-handed and some not so much. With that in mind, I really have to ask: the gently caress is Pat Condell's deal? Who's Pat Condell and why should we care what he thinks? The New Atheists often remind me a lot of the Men's Rights Advocates, pissing away opportunities to deal with legitimate issues and improve society in favour of attacking a group that isn't the actual cause of their problems.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2013 17:37
|
|
|
Puntification posted:Who's Pat Condell and why should we care what he thinks? The New Atheists often remind me a lot of the Men's Rights Advocates, pissing away opportunities to deal with legitimate issues and improve society in favour of attacking a group that isn't the actual cause of their problems. If you realise that the true driver behind (most, if not all) MRAs is actually "Oh no it's very slightly less massively advantageous to be a white straight male" then the parallel becomes a bit clearer I think.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2013 17:41
|
|
|
Pat Condell is like, the cleaner, less oil-on-his-genitals version of the Amazing Atheist. There's a pretty decent RationalWiki article about him.
TinTower fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Jul 10, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2013 18:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 16:04 |
|
|
goddamnedtwisto posted:If you realise that the true driver behind (most, if not all) MRAs is actually "Oh no it's very slightly less massively advantageous to be a white straight male" then the parallel becomes a bit clearer I think. Are you suggesting it's massively advantageous to be an Atheist in the US? Because I'm pretty sure that's not the case.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2013 19:32
|
|
