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Cask 12 This may prove useful to those of you working on Battery Park:  The Whitehall building at 17 Battery Place.
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Jul 4, 2013 03:02
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The 'whirring' sound makes me think of the ferry (but they run all year round, right? Or more often in the summer?) or maybe the giant ventilation tower off of Governors Island (but can you actually hear it from Battery Park? And does it work any harder in summer?) Also, Gargoyles of New York has a nice map of NYC gargoyles, including some in lower Manhattan. I went through a few and didn't see any that jumped out as matching the face on the dress. Very Nice Eraser fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Jul 4, 2013 |
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Jul 4, 2013 03:54
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You'll often hear a whirring sound Use of the word 'often' is to say it is something with a frequency, the sound of it comes and goes. Use of the word whirring may mean it has one of a number of meanings: a buzzing, vibrating, a bustle of activity, a revolving object, birds wings, boomerangs, boats, a carousel starting up every 30 minutes. The carousel option fits well since it includes a frequency.
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Jul 4, 2013 04:51
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I think it would help the wiki if people could post the parts of the image that show the coordinates for each cask. The evidence in favor of NYC for Cask 12 seems pretty conclusive, but admittedly, I can't unsee the 38 and 77 in the image (which puts it in DC).
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Jul 4, 2013 05:31
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Dr. Bit posted:No loving way! Well, if anything, I've had a blast in this thread learning about my city. I know all sorts of random poo poo about it now. The Stanley Park Burns statue is the exact same as the Montreal Dominion Square one, too! I never realized how many public statues have copies in other cities. In Cask 12 chat, the bird is driving me crazy trying to find something that matches the head. This may have been been posted before since I'm pretty sure I remember reading about the NY Public Library and Bryant Park so apologies if I'm repeating things. But I think this one is actually really close:  He's from the Grand Central Terminal, I think on the corner of Vanderbilt and 42nd. The shot isn't dead on from the side like the painting seems to be, but some features look right. He has the pronounced brow and swept back ridge above the eye, the beak is open and the upper beak looks roughly like the right proportions in that it is fairly straight from the eyes for a good bit before curving sharply down. The upper beak sweeps back under the eyes correctly. He also has a tongue, and I never realized it before, but the line of the bubble makes the original also look like it has a tongue:  Now that I've seen it, I think that it actually comes across clearer in a not-zoomed-in image. It's still out of proportion, though, and the beak looks more like something from a turtle or dinosaur or something. Or maybe there's a gargoyle on a building (I think this is closer than the Chrysler building) somewhere that matches better. Also, the rest of the body screams sea-bird, which I think numerous people have pointed out so it would have to be combining two birds. The legs actually remind me of a heron in flight, but they're too short. This statue is late 19th century, originally from Grand Central Station. He was put in his current location in the 1990s and I have no idea where he was in 1982.
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Jul 4, 2013 06:04
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Grand Poobah posted:I think it would help the wiki if people could post the parts of the image that show the coordinates for each cask. The evidence in favor of NYC for Cask 12 seems pretty conclusive, but admittedly, I can't unsee the 38 and 77 in the image (which puts it in DC). I put a stub in the Wiki for your Washington DC solution. Feel free to fill in whatever you like.
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Jul 4, 2013 06:36
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For what its worth, Grey giant doesn't fit well with DC in my mind since other than the Washington monument, nothing in DC can be taller than the capitol, by law. E: actually the law was amended so that no building can be more then 20 feet taller than the right of way of the street it faces which outs the tallest at like 13 stories. Or something. Cosmik Debris fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Jul 4, 2013 |
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Jul 4, 2013 07:03
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I was just looking at Cask 12. I live in Seattle, but noticed something about the verse, and the picture. Here's the image from wikipedia In the shadow Of the grey giant Find the arm that Extends over the slender path In summer You'll often hear a whirring sound Cars abound Although the sign Nearby Speaks of Indies native The natives still speak Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols. Take twice as many east steps as the hour Or more From the middle of one branch Of the v Look down And see simple roots In rhapsodic man's soil Or gaze north Toward the isle of B.  Bainbridge island? That means it's possibly at Alki. Alki has a replica model of the Statue of Liberty, which is much smaller on the water front.  Doesn't the lady in the artwork look as if she has liberty's face?Him of hard word in 3 Vols? Kurt Cobain? Nirvana only had three albums. Indie natives could mean Seattle, and Nirvana was big here. The shadow of the grey giant could be the Fremont troll. If the sun rises in the east, the shadow would be overlooking Bainbridge. (Reaching) I also noticed a Seahawk, which is pretty prominent in northwest culture, as well as a eagle. Just posting my observations.
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Jul 4, 2013 07:59
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Bina posted:Him of hard word in 3 Vols? Kurt Cobain? Nirvana only had three albums. Indie natives could mean Seattle, and Nirvana was big here. The puzzle dates back to 1982, so no Nirvana. Regarding my bird head match, would anyone like to comment? I honestly think that if we're looking for an actual bird match that we won't find much better for the head. So if we are looking for better, then we should probably be looking at gargoyles or some other fantastical recreations of birds.
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Jul 4, 2013 08:57
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There isn't even any guarantee that the bird is a visual clue. The Cleveland image has a huge centaur but there was no centaur statue nearby, it just identifies the Greek theme. Maybe the bird is meant to signify a nearby bird sanctuary or something.
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Jul 4, 2013 08:59
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Volte posted:There isn't even any guarantee that the bird is a visual clue. The Cleveland image has a huge centaur but there was no centaur statue nearby, it just identifies the Greek theme. Maybe the bird is meant to signify a nearby bird sanctuary or something. That just suggests that it's a visual match but it shouldn't count for some reason... I've proposed several matches that have been shot down by the thread, so it't not like I'm not cool with criticism. We're actually a pretty easy-going thread so just say what you think stops you from connecting x to y. It isn't a photographic match, but honestly neither is the legeater. I would say that there are a lot of elements that seem to line up, though.
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Jul 4, 2013 09:49
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Sorry if this is a reiteration.. The bird is a gull in all but the head. Reference to the ocean, perhaps? Battery park would have gulls around, no?
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Jul 4, 2013 10:31
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Volte posted:There isn't even any guarantee that the bird is a visual clue. The Cleveland image has a huge centaur but there was no centaur statue nearby, it just identifies the Greek theme. Maybe the bird is meant to signify a nearby bird sanctuary or something. Actually, I think the centaur represents Sagittarius.
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Jul 4, 2013 10:43
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Potrzebie posted:Sorry if this is a reiteration.. Yeah, I think that the consensus is that past the neck it's a sea-bird of some kind.
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Jul 4, 2013 10:46
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Jul 4, 2013 12:35
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BJG posted:I like this line of thinking about Leif in Juneau. The book refers to "Ruddy Alf, a copper-haired sea-troll of Nortland". Wikipedia notes that Leif's father Erik the Red was likewise probably named for his hair colour.
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Jul 4, 2013 12:35
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Sorry for asking this, I did read like the first 20 pages, but now there's 79! Has anyone found anything or got a really big lead yet? Keep going!
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Jul 4, 2013 12:36
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concerned mom posted:Sorry for asking this, I did read like the first 20 pages, but now there's 79! Has anyone found anything or got a really big lead yet? Keep going! They've all been found. Also, it turns out there's a 13th cask (Urban Smurf found it buried in his linen closet) that included a note explaining how Preiss faked his own death. He came out of hiding and awarded Urban Smurf a golden whistle; when blown, it 'makes what is hidden visible.' Then the president hired everybody in this thread to be on his personal treasure hunting squad.
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Jul 4, 2013 15:44
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So since I posted my battery park theory, I've been out and about but now I've got a few minutes at the computer so I'll expound on the visual clues as I see them. In no particular order:  The Grey Giant, or one of the World Trade Centers circa 1982 (which were a stones throw from Battery aPark). Any tall building.  The Spires of Ellis Island as seen from Battery Park  Lady Liberty, visible from Battery Park  Osprey or Sea-gull, possibly with a (chrysler building?) gargoyle for its face. Sea-birds abound at battery park, gulls particularly.  The colors of Fordham University  colors (blue and white) of columbia university  colors (violet and white) of NYU  mirrored outline of lower manhattan with a jewel right outside of where Battery Park would be. The droplets/gems roughly correspond with Ellis Island, Bedlow's island, and Governors island. The drop representing governors island is roughly the same shape as governors island. One droplet is left which would be in Brooklyn or something.  Chrysanthimum sort of looks like a scorpion, which would account for the scorpio zodiac for november. And then the Stained glass window in the ann seton shrine across the street from battery park is shaped like the painting  as is a building visible from battery park Feel free to critique any of these.
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Jul 4, 2013 16:20
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drat - I've been looking for meaning in the color patterns for the past day but didn't think of university colors. I think you have a really compelling theory; not so sure about the shape of the Russian buildings vs. ellis island, but that could just be to get the Russian connection (a la the centaur in the Cleveland puzzle). The Scorpio symbol is also a stretch, IMO, but I think the rest of what you've covered is really strong.
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Jul 4, 2013 16:49
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Cask 12, New YorkGuuse posted:The puzzle dates back to 1982, so no Nirvana. I still think the bird head is the Chrysler Building gargoyle, but if other people want to look elsewhere, it's their time. Palencar needed a vehicle to get the gargoyle head into the picture. It's possibly a similar method to how the Centaur in the Image4/Cleveland solve is holding the cup which is a (not 100%) match of the fountain in the Italian garden. Put yourself in the artist's shoes. If you want to hide a Chrysler Building gargoyle in a puzzle like this, putting it on a bird body is a reasonable way to do it. The rest of the bird could be largely insignificant, and to me at least, that's a possible scenario. Edit: Or it just means that it's in NYC in an area where gulls are around. Merlot Brougham fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Jul 4, 2013 |
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Jul 4, 2013 16:58
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Cosmik Debris posted:Feel free to critique any of these. Put it in the Wiki. Even if it's not right it will be a good reference for the future. You make a good case.
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Jul 4, 2013 17:16
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Cosmik Debris posted:
I don't quite see the scorpion, but Chrysanthemums are considered the flower of November.
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Jul 4, 2013 17:42
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also, New York was the 11th state to ratify the constitution. Happy Fourth!
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Jul 4, 2013 17:45
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This has always looked like a number to me; maybe 30, 38 or 300 (rotated 180). (Liberty was shipped in 300 pieces but that's just desperate confirmation bias.) BJG fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Jul 4, 2013 |
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Jul 4, 2013 18:03
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Every theory is tenuous. Its the nature of these puzzles. There is disassociation and interlacing within verse and a thematic basis for interpreting the image is better than a random one. The gargoyle is a small thing on a distinct building. I'd rather see a link to the Statue of Liberty as the choice for a tall terminal tower or historic water tower type clue. No reason for two tall tower type associations unless you think of a real specific reason. Talk about university colors as a thematic choice might work if you can explain what about the image instructs us to go that route. The head of the bird looks like its robotic or metal..helmet like even. Seems silly but you might say its a seagull wearing a hawk or eagle helmet. Perhaps that makes an instruction to think of something which wears helmets. Footbal team is slightly less tenuous in that sense. I say Seattle Seahawks beats Chrysler gargoyle.
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Jul 4, 2013 18:34
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Urban Smurf posted:Every theory is tenuous. Its the nature of these puzzles. There is disassociation and interlacing within verse and a thematic basis for interpreting the image is better than a random one. If the artist intended the picture to depict a bird wearing a football helmet, don't you think he would have drew a football helmet? Urban Smurf, your absurd theories are one of the main reasons I continue to follow this thread. As far as the hunt goes, I really like that theory on a possible NYC cask, but I think the explanation of the spires is not satisfactory. I would also like to see a stronger link to a verse.
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Jul 4, 2013 18:42
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Hobo de los Muertos posted:If the artist intended the picture to depict a bird wearing a football helmet, don't you think he would have drew a football helmet? Urban Smurf, your absurd theories are one of the main reasons I continue to follow this thread. I'm not saying the bird is wearing a football helmet. The head looks different, and to suggest a reason for that difference, given that it looks slightly larger than it needs to be to depict a proper gull, then suggesting that the reason for the expanded proportion be a shell in the shape of a bird's head on a bird isn't unreasonable. The rest of the bird looks realistic and yet the head looks artificial. A football player's helmet is just one of many possibilities, do you have any suggestions of you're own?
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Jul 4, 2013 18:49
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Cask 12, New YorkHobo de los Muertos posted:As far as the hunt goes, I really like that theory on a possible NYC cask, but I think the explanation of the spires is not satisfactory. I would also like to see a stronger link to a verse. I certainly think the major problem with NYC could be the verse. I think any theories that image 12 is pointing somewhere outside of the NYC area are a large stretch. Merlot Brougham fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Jul 4, 2013 |
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Jul 4, 2013 19:06
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Urban Smurf posted:You'll often hear a whirring sound Merlot Brougham posted:I certainly think the major problem with NYC could be the verse. I think any theories that image 12 is pointing somewhere outside of the NYC area are a large stretch.
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Jul 4, 2013 20:33
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Merlot Brougham posted:Cask 12, New York Generally speaking, I'm with you in the sense that I'm definitely not expecting a 100% match. Looking back at the two solved pictures, there are issues with either Palencar intentionally messing with things (putting flutes on the columns just to obfuscate them I guess), just being a poor artist or working from rough notes and Polaroids from Preiss. And I definitely agree with you about the rest of the bird being either irrelevant or taken from another source. My problem with the Chrysler building is that it really isn't very close aside from the brow: matching with  vs  Mine isn't perfect either, but I have an easier time rationalizing it by just attributing the differences to the ordinary deviation from photographic in Palencar's work. It even has the tongue.  Also, since we seem to be assuming the Statue of Liberty, do we need another "iconic" image like the Chrysler building gargoyles? You may be right, but I'm betting that whatever the head matches to it's a fairly accurate detail that Preiss noted while on foot within a few blocks of the cask spot. I don't know that there's much left in the painting to make a significant (i.e. legeater) match to. I also can't shake the thought that it's a turtle or something, but that might just be me being crazy.
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Jul 4, 2013 20:53
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Cask 12, New York Guuse posted:Generally speaking, I'm with you in the sense that I'm definitely not expecting a 100% match. Looking back at the two solved pictures, there are issues with either Palencar intentionally messing with things (putting flutes on the columns just to obfuscate them I guess), just being a poor artist or working from rough notes and Polaroids from Preiss. And I definitely agree with you about the rest of the bird being either irrelevant or taken from another source. My problem with the Chrysler building is that it really isn't very close aside from the brow: Maybe you do need another "iconic" image, or something that solidifies Manhattan if you're not sold on the twin tower or the "Times Square" in the picture. New York's a pretty big place, so sprinkling in some more "Manhattan" into the picture would seem appropriate, just as the Terminal Building puts you in Cleveland after you see the the Ohio outline in the Cask 4 solve. Aren't we supposed to be working on Montreal, anyway? As for the Battery Park/Verse 10 theory, here's a sign nearby that speaks of Indies native: 
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Jul 4, 2013 21:18
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Random thoughts as usual, The ridges behind the neck of the Chrysler gargoyle fits the 1982 Screaming for Vengence cover art although that metal bird has a different looking beak. I remember some old B movie that featured some dragon living in the Chrysler building, I think it was simply titled "Q". E: here it is...from 1982, again too late for book publication, but an idea for something that might grab the interest of a Preiss audience (fantasy/dragons), http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_(film) Other than that I don't see people getting up close to see those gargoyles...unless the point of the clue is to put us in some spot that has telescope access. Urban Smurf fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Jul 4, 2013 |
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Jul 4, 2013 21:20
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There are a lot of statues of eagles across the US that match the bird's head. Looking into the Battery Park theory, I'd take a look at the National Museum of the American Indian in the old customs building adjacent to Battery Park.
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Jul 4, 2013 21:21
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Cask 12, New York / Verse 6 VariantGWBBQ posted:Assuming that verse is for New York, I can't get it out of my head that the whirring sound in summer is referring to the Wonder Wheel or another ride at at Coney Island. Do all of the Edwin Forrest interpretations of this line dead end? I haven't spent a lot of time on Image 12, so I don't know if it was mentioned on Q4t, and I don't remember seeing it in this thread, but wiki says Booth was named after Edwin Forrest, which would make Edwin and Edwina the same. A nearby street/landmark named (after) Forrest/Forest? Edit: A couple more thoughts on the gargoyle head business. As mentioned earlier, if it was an actual statue Palencar was trying to represent, why not just put the statue like he did with Bowman statue and the (not 100% match) Fountain of the Great Lakes in the Image 5/Chicago solve, or Milwaukee City Hall in Image 10, or the legeater in Image 9? It's because the Chrysler gargoyles don't have bodies, so he had artistic license to get that clue into the image. If you're looking at a picture of a Chrysler gargoyle and your instructions are to make it a puzzle clue, what do you do? Likewise, if you're given a picture of the eagle statue at the Grand Central Terminal and told to make that into a puzzle clue, do you decapitate it and put the head on a different bird's body? That makes much less sense. Merlot Brougham fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Jul 4, 2013 |
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Jul 4, 2013 21:27
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Cask 9, MontrealMerlot Brougham posted:
Here's a thing that I don't think I've posted yet: The odd folds on the hat:  The epaulet or whatever on Sir John's shoulder:  Not perfect of course, but we're already working with the legeater for our "photographic" match. In the solved puzzles it doesn't seem like there were that many, so I'm thinking that a lot of what we'll find will either be just close and confirmatory or constructive in the sense that some elements of an object fit but others are completely invented for the painting. If we just had something decent for the collar we'd have matches (granted, some really poor) for everything in the picture with something either in or right by Dorchester Square/Place du Canada. Merlot Brougham posted:Edit: A couple more thoughts on the gargoyle head business. As mentioned earlier, if it was an actual statue Palencar was trying to represent, why not just put the statue like he did with Bowman statue and the (not 100% match) Fountain of the Great Lakes in the Image 5/Chicago solve, or Milwaukee City Hall in Image 10, or the legeater in Image 9? It's because the Chrysler gargoyles don't have bodies, so he had artistic license to get that clue into the image. If you're looking at a picture of a Chrysler gargoyle and your instructions are to make it a puzzle clue, what do you do? Likewise, if you're given a picture of the eagle statue at the Grand Central Terminal and told to make that into a puzzle clue, do you decapitate it and put the head on a different bird's body? That makes much less sense. I understand your thought process on this and you could well be right. We won't actually know what it's meant to represent unless a cask is unearthed so it's probably best to be open-minded anyways.
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Jul 4, 2013 22:24
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Cask 9, Montreal I had a question about this for those who have the book:  It almost looks like someone was writing on a piece of paper that was placed on top of the image. This part of the image is intended to look like that and isn't anything funky like that or the little circle printing artifact in image 12, right? I like "Peel" as far as biased explanations are concerned. To defend, I noticed that "Peel" as an interpretation came out on q4t long before the discovery of the legeater lamp. Here's another idea I toyed around with for a second. This is the front of the Dominion Sqauare Tavern: 
Merlot Brougham fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Jul 4, 2013 |
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Jul 4, 2013 22:49
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Merlot Brougham posted:Cask 9, Montreal It shows up in the more recent scans made earlier in the thread and in fact it's even clearer there. I'd actually forgotten all about it. I'm cool with Peel, since in my interpretation of the verse the cask is right by Peel. What were folks' rationale for it? edit: The Dominion Square Tavern thing is very cool. Did anyone ever figure out what color the checkers were inside and if they could be seen from the street?
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Jul 4, 2013 23:04
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Cask 9, MontrealGuuse posted:It shows up in the more recent scans made earlier in the thread and in fact it's even clearer there. I'd actually forgotten all about it. I'm cool with Peel, since in my interpretation of the verse the cask is right by Peel. What were folks' rationale for it? There was no rationale for it. I just remember seeing "Peel" thrown out as one of the first few interpretations of what was hidden in that part of the picture in the image 9 thread at q4t. I thought it was an interesting interpretation, especially since it was offered long before the legeater discovery or anyone got serious about Montreal. I haven't seen any deeper checker discussion.
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Jul 4, 2013 23:11
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Merlot Brougham posted:Cask 9, Montreal It definitely looks intentional in the book. That is, it looks like it was part of the original illustration, not a printing defect. There's some other shapes apparent in the book too; some outlines in dark brown in the upper left and some 'slash' marks in the upper right. Not sure if any of them, including the one you pointed out, are meaningful or just brush marks or whatever, but they're definitely not artifacts.
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Jul 4, 2013 23:12
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