|
ImpAtom posted:This was a bit of a mistranslation which has since been corrected. Why wasn't Ashe more popular? She's the main character, as tough as they come, and not even remotely moe. Yet it seems Japan's favorite character from XII was Vaan.... Both the Western and Eastern fanbases make no sense to me.
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2013 21:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 23:53 |
|
|
The White Dragon posted:Me, Wakka's a bro I agree. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2013 21:59
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:Why wasn't Ashe more popular? She's the main character, as tough as they come, and not even remotely moe. Because Ashe wasn't actually the main character. No amount of saying it will make it true, especially considering she's one of the last characters to join your party and is basically Princess Leia. Even people who go "Well, Vaan isn't the main character" generally will point to Balthier or Basch beforehand, both of whom join the party earlier and fill the traditional main character role more. That isn't to say Ashe isn't an important plot motivator but that isn't the same as being the main character. As far as Vaan being the most popular: He's not really. Balthier ranks above him frequently on popularity polls. Vaan, being the main character by default, shows up through sheer intertia. Japanese fans will tend to 'default' to a main character if they don't have a specific super-favorite. Especially on popularity polls or whatever, the default main character is generally either at or near the top simply due to the being the main character regardless of anything they say or do. Balthier beating out Vaan is a pretty good sign that Balthier is the guy people actually care about. And keep in mind, this isn't just because Japan Hate Good Thing. A lot of Matsuno's stuff is going to seem less fresh if you've played all the Tactics Ogre games, FFT and Vagrant Story, at which point the reoccurring themes, concepts and ideas he uses will stand out a lot more. FFXII is probably the worst of his games in that regards and so people are unlikely to be very impressed by it when they've seen better things from the same author. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Jul 5, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2013 22:12
|
|
|
Okay first off, people who say Basch was the main character never played FFXII. They're just bitter fanboys of Matsuno's. In the Final Fantasy XII we all played, Basch does nothing of significance from the moment Vossler dies all the way up to the top of the final dungeon. In short, he's irelevant for about 3/4ths of the game. Balthier also does very little up until you head for Archades which is about halfway through the game. Then and only then does his story really move the plot along. The game is about Ashe, plain and simple. Her quest for power leads the group from location to location. Even going to Archades only happened because of her and Balthier just kinda fell into a major role along the way. Probably the most climactic, important part of the game as far as the party is concerned is her refusing to take the Shards from the Sun Cryst. There is absolutely no one apart from maybe Balthier that you could argue was as important as her for keeping the narrative going and she was certainly in focus more than Vaan or any of the others. And I have nothing against Japan. I often agree with their favorites and get annoyed as hell at all the hate from my fellow Americans. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Jul 5, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2013 22:22
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:Okay first off, people who say Basch was the main character never played FFXII. They're just bitter fanboys of Matsuno's. In the Final Fantasy XII we all played, Basch does nothing of significance from the moment Vossler dies all the way up to the top of the final dungeon. In short, he's irelevant for about 3/4ths of the game. The main character in a story is not always the person who has the most to do with the plot. They are the audience viewpoint character or avatar. Ashe is, in no way, the audience viewpoint character or avatar. You can make arguments for Vaan (the guy you play as) or Balthier (who you spend most of the game with aside from the tutorial area with Vaan.) Both of whom, rather tellingly, are also the stars of the game's sequel. Balthier is also the guy who got to cameo in FFT:WotL and Vaan showed up in FFTA2. Vaan ends up being an unimportant character, but if Vaan miraculously didn't exist, there is little chance that Ashe would have been the person you're playing as without serious rewrites to the story. So no, even though she's important to the plot and a major motivator, she isn't the main character. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jul 5, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2013 22:25
|
|
|
Speaking of the FFX remake, are they adding the option to skip cutscenes? This determines if I play through X again.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2013 22:26
|
|
|
Schwartzcough posted:Also, Tidus has been replaced with Lightning in the FFX HD re-release.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2013 22:34
|
|
|
Endorph posted:Frankly, I would buy ten copies. Only if they keep the laughing scene.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2013 22:36
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:The main character in a story is not always the person who has the most to do with the plot. They are the audience viewpoint character or avatar. Ashe is, in no way, the audience viewpoint character or avatar. You can make arguments for Vaan (the guy you play as) or Balthier (who you spend most of the game with aside from the tutorial area with Vaan.) Both of whom, rather tellingly, are also the stars of the game's sequel. Balthier is also the guy who got to cameo in FFT:WotL and Vaan showed up in FFTA2. "Viewpoint character" is not the same as "main character." They are often the same character, but not always. You are correct that Vaan is the viewpoint character, but NikkolasKing is correct that Ashe is the central, "main" character of FFXII. As I've pointed out before, Dr. John Watson is the narrator and viewpoint character in the Sherlock Holmes stories, but he sure isn't the main character. Wikipedia posted:A protagonist (from Ancient Greek πρωταγωνιστής (protagonistes), meaning "one who plays the first part, chief actor"[1]) is the main character (the central or primary personal figure) of a literary, theatrical, cinematic, or musical narrative, who ends up in conflict because of the antagonist. The story is completely centered on Ashe, how her kingdom was lost, and her husband and father killed. It is about how she uses her lineage tracing back to Raithwall to collect doodads that require her to make a moral decisions about power, revenge, and self-determination. Virtually the entire conflict of the game revolves around the Empire's control of her kingdom, and how she is going to expel them and regain her rule. No other character in the story has even a fraction of the importance to the entire narrative and themes of the game as Ashe. Schwartzcough fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Jul 5, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2013 22:38
|
|
|
Schwartzcough posted:The story is completely centered on Ashe, how her kingdom was lost, and her husband and father killed. It is about how she uses her lineage tracing back to Raithwall to collect doodads that require her to make a moral decisions about power, revenge, and self-determination. Virtually the entire conflict of the game revolves around the Empire's control of her kingdom, and how she is going to expel them and regain her rule. No other character in the story has even a fraction of the importance to the entire narrative and themes of the game as Ashe. Except this continues to ignore that she is absent from the story for most of the beginning and is rescued by other characters in a manner basically identical to Princess Leia, as well as her lack of avatar status.. You can make a lot of arguments about how she should be the main character, and I agree, but she isn't presented as one. She fills the thematic role but not many of the other roles. This is arguably because FFXII is a game with a really problematic story to begin with but still. Going "Why don't people like Ashe? She's the main character!" ignores that she isn't presented as the main character and nobody who really wants a female protagonist is going to settle for "Well, she'd be the person you play as if not for all the male characters in the game!" In a novel maybe, sure, but the playable aspect is really important. Vaan isn't just the narrator and even despite the fact that he ends up thematically unimportant to the game, he is still given the presentation of a main character on multiple occasions. Balthier is too to some degree, especially in the period after he joins but before Ashe joins (and where Vaan starts to fade into the background.) Ashe has all the thematic weight but isn't allowed to be the whole main character. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Jul 5, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2013 22:47
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Except this continues to ignore that she is absent from the story for most of the beginning and is rescued by other characters in a manner basically identical to Princess Leia. You can make a lot of arguments about how she should be the main character, and I agree, but she isn't presented as one. She fills the thematic role but not many of the other roles. This is arguably because FFXII is a game with a really problematic story to begin with but still. Are you really suggesting she can't be the main character because she was rescued from prison "like Princess Leia"? What does that have to do with anything? As I stated, protagonists don't need to be the narrator or viewpoint character, and they don't need to meet some arbitrary "she was introduced in the first half hour/30 pages" requisite. Ashe showed up in the intro cinematic before any of the other characters (hell, she was the ONLY player character in the cinematic besides Basch), strengthening the point of "here's someone important!" If you want to restrict it to "post-intro cinematic" for some reason, she shows up in cutscenes as soon as Vaan enters the sewers, because she was orchestrating the attack on the palace- that's REALLY early in the game. Then you have her as a guest, then after getting yourselves out of jail, you basically head off to rescue her. Even before she joins your team she is controlling the flow of the story and what you need to do.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2013 22:58
|
|
|
Schwartzcough posted:Are you really suggesting she can't be the main character because she was rescued from prison "like Princess Leia"? What does that have to do with anything? As I stated, protagonists don't need to be the narrator or viewpoint character, and they don't need to meet some arbitrary "she was introduced in the first half hour/30 pages" requisite. Ashe showed up in the intro cinematic before any of the other characters (hell, she was the ONLY player character in the cinematic besides Basch), strengthening the point of "here's someone important!" If you want to restrict it to "post-intro cinematic" for some reason, she shows up in cutscenes as soon as Vaan enters the sewers, because she was orchestrating the attack on the palace- that's REALLY early in the game. Then you have her as a guest, then after getting yourselves out of jail, you basically head off to rescue her. Even before she joins your team she is controlling the flow of the story and what you need to do. Because you're still approaching this like a novel and it isn't. It's a video game and so playable status is important. Again, telling female players that they should be happy because Ashe was totally in the opening cinematic is loving ridiculous. It's flat-out saying "Well, yeah, she doesn't get the same role as male leads do in other games but... uh, she's still the main character! Like her!"
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2013 23:01
|
|
|
strikehold posted:I agree. No one said he isn't a bro, he's just a bro with stupid hair.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2013 23:03
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Because you're still approaching this like a novel and it isn't. It's a video game and so playable status is important. I agree that it's extremely unusual for a game to take this approach, but I don't see why it's somehow not allowed to apply to video games. And this is, after all, an RPG, where you can take Vaan out of your team in the first couple hours and never use him again, so the "you're playing as him" thing really doesn't fly either. Of course you control Vaan in towns; he wouldn't be much of a viewpoint character if you weren't playing from his viewpoint, after all. But honestly, Vaan is only there to ask some naive questions now and then to let the audience know how this world works, and to be a bit of a foil to Ashe for a brief stint. Ashe is there to be the driving force and narrative focus of the entire plot from before she joins your team right up through the end credits.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2013 23:07
|
|
|
Schwartzcough posted:I agree that it's extremely unusual for a game to take this approach, but I don't see why it's somehow not allowed to apply to video games. And this is, after all, an RPG, where you can take Vaan out of your team in the first couple hours and never use him again, so the "you're playing as him" thing really doesn't fly either. Of course you control Vaan in towns; he wouldn't be much of a viewpoint character if you weren't playing from his viewpoint, after all. But honestly, Vaan is only there to ask some naive questions now and then to let the audience know how this world works, and to be a bit of a foil to Ashe for a brief stint. Ashe is there to be the driving force and narrative focus of the entire plot from before she joins your team right up through the end credits. Because, largely, the interactivity is what defines a video game character and what people want when they are playing a video game and being the 'playable character', even in cutscenes, is an important element of that. In comparison, let's look at Yuna. She's also arguably the main character of FFX to some degree, although Tidus is more proactive than Vaan is. She's the second most popular FF female character after Lightning. (Sometimes vying with Aerith.) In comparison to Ashe, she's not as strong a character but she's actually allowed significant presence, including being the main playable character in the sequels and showing up in spinoff games. Is she a worse character? Yeah, probably, but if people only wanted to play as good characters then that would matter a lot more. People play Final Fantasy games for power fantasy and wacky anime antics and the character who is allowed to be cool and fight and play as and who you get to explore the environment with is going to be more appealing than the character who is thematically the main character but in most other aspects plays second fiddle. I mean think about the scene near the end of the game where Vaan grabs the sword and wounds Vayne. Why isn't Ashe doing that? It's completely presented as a main character action in cutscene but of course it goes to Vaan instead. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Jul 5, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2013 23:12
|
|
|
A lot of your complaints about the role of Vaan and Ashe have to do with how the story was essentially rewritten halfway through to add a more approachable user controlled character. Vaan isn't the protagonist; he doesn't drive the story forward, and really other than as a narrative device, he could be totally removed and the story would still stand on its own. As a video game character, he's the "main" one in the sense that he's the guy you control (though really only in certain contexts), but from a story perspective, he's merely a device used to tell the story. This is Ashe's story, and Vaan the vehicle by which we get to experience it. The analogy of Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson is spot on. Now, FFX is another matter. Tidus is not nearly as passive as Vaan. He fills some of the same roles, but he also makes decisions, and in a big big way is the one who pushes Yuna to reject her fate, the act that makes FFX have a story at all. FFX is Tidus and Yuna's story. To say that FFXII is Ashe and Vaan's story would just be ridiculous. Even wording it that way shows how silly that argument is.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 01:55
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I mean think about the scene near the end of the game where Vaan grabs the sword and wounds Vayne. Why isn't Ashe doing that? It's completely presented as a main character action in cutscene but of course it goes to Vaan instead. Ashe could have done that, but Vaan is younger and more impulsive, with plenty of reason to hate Vayne.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 02:06
|
|
|
PhilippAchtel posted:A lot of your complaints about the role of Vaan and Ashe have to do with how the story was essentially rewritten halfway through to add a more approachable user controlled character. Vaan isn't the protagonist; he doesn't drive the story forward, and really other than as a narrative device, he could be totally removed and the story would still stand on its own. Yes, I'm aware. The starting point of this argument was "so why don't people like Ashe?" and part of my argument was basically that no matter how much she should be, she isn't the main character of the video game. You can argue it. You can point out how thematically she should be. You can point out how much she is onscreen, But when push comes to shove, Ashe is not the person who functions as the player avatar and that is (part of) the reason she is not really given the same weight as Lightning. No amount of saying "but she's the main character" will change the fact that when it came time to put FFXII's main character into Dissidia, they used Vaan. That matters to people regardless of how much it shouldn't. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Jul 6, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 02:25
|
|
|
Consider also that Reddas is the one who actually destroyed the Sun Cryst. Reddas certainly isn't the main character. Hell, Gabranth and Larsa do more in that scene with Vayne Novus than Ashe does. Although I could get behind Larsa being the main character. He really should have been.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 02:26
|
|
|
All this talk about FF12 made me pop the game in my PS2. I haven't played it since it came out because I hated the combat (and it was coming off of 10 which I thought had the best combat of any Final Fantasy) but I beat 13 this year after hating that at release too and thought I should give this another chance. Well I just wanted to say gently caress these backwards rear end camera controls this is gonna bother me forever 
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 03:07
|
|
|
I think a close comparison for Ashe would be Vanille in XIII - the game is arguably her story (she's the narrator and it's really about her fixing her previous mistakes), but people usually point to Lightning or even Hope as more central protaganist.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 03:10
|
|
|
PhilippAchtel posted:A lot of your complaints about the role of Vaan and Ashe have to do with how the story was essentially rewritten halfway through to add a more approachable user controlled character. Vaan isn't the protagonist; he doesn't drive the story forward, and really other than as a narrative device, he could be totally removed and the story would still stand on its own. I think this is right. Vaan is the "main character" of FFXII for branding purposes only, because Square wanted a "relatable teen" to appeal to their (perceived) customer base. From any sort of narrative perspective, the idea that he's the lead is just silly. I mean, hell, you'd think Lightning was the main character of FFXIII-2 based on their marketing, but that clearly wasn't the case.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 03:15
|
|
|
AlmightyBob posted:All this talk about FF12 made me pop the game in my PS2. I haven't played it since it came out because I hated the combat (and it was coming off of 10 which I thought had the best combat of any Final Fantasy) but I beat 13 this year after hating that at release too and thought I should give this another chance. Well I just wanted to say gently caress these backwards rear end camera controls this is gonna bother me forever PC emulation an option? I flipped the behavior of the right stick on mine.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 03:20
|
|
|
Pyroxene Stigma posted:PC emulation an option? I flipped the behavior of the right stick on mine. My shitbox doesn't do too well with PS2 emulation. A few 2D games work alright but that's about it. I'll get used to it eventually probably but it really makes no sense not to have an option to uninvert it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 03:24
|
|
|
Mega64 posted:Well, the one crossover excluding Dissidia, Theatrhythm, All the Bravest... All the Bravest isn't a crossover it's a cashgrab melting pot of terrible. FF:TAY has a crossover, but it's also dumb as hell because that game is just lovely fan fiction.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 03:26
|
|
|
What about Kingdom Hearts?
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 03:27
|
|
|
AlmightyBob posted:What about Kingdom Hearts?
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 03:36
|
|
|
Gilgamesh appears in several mainline games, you'd hardly say FF5 is "taking over" or whatever the original complaint was.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 03:38
|
|
|
Tempo 119 posted:Gilgamesh appears in several mainline games, you'd hardly say FF5 is "taking over" or whatever the original complaint was. He's also the best character they've ever created. Putting him in other games was a rare smart decision by Square.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 03:47
|
|
|
Put him and Ghido in every Final Fantasy from now on Square tia.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 03:50
|
|
|
Dr Pepper posted:Put him and Ghido in every Final Fantasy from now on Square tia. It also needs to be GBA Ghido.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 03:51
|
|
|
Frick'um, just call him Sage Guido again and make him talk like he's from new jersey
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 03:56
|
|
|
Endorph posted:The FF characters are barely there, and the only major interaction with each other they get is that one scene in KH2 of everyone fighting Heartless. Wait, then what do you call the first KH when Sora first meets
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 04:05
|
|
|
Alright FF8 plot was some big time bullshit stuff before Disc 3 but now it's morphed from bullshit to batshit. I guess Squall willed Rinoa back to life with the power of love, but in that little FMV bit it looks like she just flips some switch as if she forgot to have her life support back-up active or something. That whole space romance scene was bizarre enough, and then a human voice showed up to croon over their cockpit love sesh. Was that song in English in all versions or was that translated?
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 04:20
|
|
|
Tempo 119 posted:Gilgamesh appears in several mainline games, you'd hardly say FF5 is "taking over" or whatever the original complaint was. Gilgamesh is basically a running gag, I don't really see the two things as comparable. He's more like Ifrit or something than an actual character. I mean Theatrhythm and Kingdom Hearts and all that poo poo doesn't really count, but her being in XIV is pretty weird. Baku fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Jul 6, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 04:22
|
|
|
Zombies' Downfall posted:Gilgamesh is basically a running gag, I don't really see the two things as comparable. He's more like Ifrit or something than an actual character. They can just say that Atomos did it, like in XI. Hell, it already appeared in FFXIV so why not.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 04:35
|
|
|
Great Lakes Log posted:Alright FF8 plot was some big time bullshit stuff before Disc 3 but now it's morphed from bullshit to batshit. I guess Squall willed Rinoa back to life with the power of love, but in that little FMV bit it looks like she just flips some switch as if she forgot to have her life support back-up active or something. That whole space romance scene was bizarre enough, and then a human voice showed up to croon over their cockpit love sesh. According to the FFWiki, it was written in English.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 04:42
|
|
|
Great Lakes Log posted:Alright FF8 plot was some big time bullshit stuff before Disc 3 but now it's morphed from bullshit to batshit. I guess Squall willed Rinoa back to life with the power of love, but in that little FMV bit it looks like she just flips some switch as if she forgot to have her life support back-up active or something. That whole space romance scene was bizarre enough, and then a human voice showed up to croon over their cockpit love sesh. Once you realise that FF8 is just a bunch of disjointed scenes from TNG and DS9 it makes sense. Also here's an analogy for explaining Ultimecia. Everyone who is possessed by her in the timeline is like a leg of a centiped, an offshoot of a much larger entity. The entity itself is the main body that goes from the beginning of time to the end. That's how she's able to exist in all time periods at once.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 05:03
|
|
|
Great Lakes Log posted:Alright FF8 plot was some big time bullshit stuff before Disc 3 but now it's morphed from bullshit to batshit. I guess Squall willed Rinoa back to life with the power of love, but in that little FMV bit it looks like she just flips some switch as if she forgot to have her life support back-up active or something. That whole space romance scene was bizarre enough, and then a human voice showed up to croon over their cockpit love sesh. The sequence where Ellone teleports Squall to Rinoa is the biggest loving bullshit of the entire game. There's nothing more groan-worthy than DEUS EX MACHINA PLOT DEVICE
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 05:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 23:53 |
|
|
My favorite part is that there just happened to be a spaceship right there for them to get on. It's like they were purposefully trying to one up themselves in the bullshit department. I still wish Adel had been the main villain. Even if everything else was virtually the same, it would have saved the game somewhat. Adel mind controlled Edea and Rinoa to try and free herself and then the heroes of the present (Squall and CO.) unite with the heroes who defeated her in the past (Laguna and co.) to put a stop to her evil forever. Thus no time travel nonsense and the overall plot is pretty much the same. It's kinda sad when a few lines of dialogue make your secondary villain more threatening than your main one but that's exactly what happened with Adel and Ultimecia for me.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 06:08
|
|