|
Giant Isopod posted:I have been told by the owner You don't own this property? You'd better not go drilling into any walls...
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2013 23:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 20:41 |
|
|
kid sinister posted:You don't own this property? You'd better not go drilling into any walls... I have permission, and we're working on a number of renovation / improvement things in the house together. It isn't a standard tenant / landlord situation. But if it looks like it is going to be too difficult for us to do ourselves (which I am thinking it may well be at this point) we'll probably end up getting an electrician in.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2013 00:00
|
|
|
OK then, it sounds like it is possible. How about this? Test to see if the boxes are grounded or not. If not, then where's the breaker box? Is there an attic or basement? There are some specialized tools that make running cable in walls easier. The first is a utility hacksaw. With that, you can stick it in between the box and stud to cut it away from the stud. Once you undo the cable clamps inside the box, you should be able to maneuver the box out of the existing hole in the wall. The next tool is a flex drill bit. With a little work, you can put the bit in that hole you just made and drill down into a basement or up into an attic. If you're really good, you can drill across several studs, but I wouldn't recommend that one for beginners. The last tool are fish sticks. Basically they're flexible rod sections that you can screw together to push or pull cable through holes you've drilled. If you have great hands and the patience for it, you can use them like a blind man uses a cane to feel features inside walls until you find the hole/box knockout you want. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Jul 3, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2013 00:14
|
|
|
Ok - picture time. I am neither a draftsman nor a photographer. Nor an electrician, obviously. Here's the breaker panel: The window pictured is the room I want to add grounded outlets to.  That bundle of wires goes to this, which I am assuming is the ground  Breaker info. Is this useful? I have no idea!  A lovely house diagram  And two pictures of the outlet itself   The box itself looks to be plastic. Any chance those two wires in the back could be grounds, or would they be for a 2nd outlet? There is a crawlspace below the house, but no basement. I honestly don't know about the attic. There's an access panel in the hallway ceiling, but I have no idea to what extent it's actually accessible.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2013 05:45
|
|
|
angryrobots posted:I dunno about "chances" but like I said before, the unbalanced current will take all paths, even unintentional ones. The important thing is that your neutral connections are good. If you were able to remove the earth ground, and still run a 120v load off the affected circuit with good voltage, then it is probably just some parallel current you are looking at there. Get rid of that cloth junk, put in some romex with a ground, make good connections, and don't sweat it. Oh yeah and bond your ground at all metal junction boxes. New circuit went in with brand new (old work) boxes, 20A breaker, 12/2 romex and 20A outlets. The problem still persists. Unless there is something else I should be checking I'll live with it like you said.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2013 17:13
|
|
|
Giant Isopod posted:Ok - picture time. You assume right, that is the ground wire down to the grounding pole. You got bigger problems than no ground wires though. First off, you have a Challenger box. Challenger was one of the several re-brandings of Zinsco, which have a history of starting fires at their worst. Second, that place has to be a LOT older than the 1960s if it has cloth wrapped wiring. If that stuff is in use, then there definitely is no ground wire. Cloth wrapped wiring and plastic boxes came out decades apart. That room is older than 1960 and has to have been renovated in the past. What about those other 2 wires capped off in that box? Is there only one wire under each cap or is there 2 twisted together under them? Be careful, they might be on another circuit and still might be hot.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2013 19:50
|
|
|
kid sinister posted:You assume right, that is the ground wire down to the grounding pole. You got bigger problems than no ground wires though. First off, you have a Challenger box. Challenger was one of the several re-brandings of Zinsco, which have a history of starting fires at their worst. Oh cool, glad to be reppin' the thread title kid sinister posted:Second, that place has to be a LOT older than the 1960s if it has cloth wrapped wiring. If that stuff is in use, then there definitely is no ground wire. Cloth wrapped wiring and plastic boxes came out decades apart. That room is older than 1960 and has to have been renovated in the past. I didn't mess with the 2 wires in the back. I prodded them with the tester and it did not look like they were hot so I assume they are on the same circuit. I was surprised by the cloth wrapped wire as well, but I didn't realize it was that old. On my diagram I put a 3rd outlet that is grounded. Well. It has 3 prongs. Maybe I'm assuming too much. I'm going to check that one out tonight, and see how it is setup. The kitchen, living room, and dining room all have 3 prong outlets. I'm really hoping they re-wired it completely during renovation rather than just adding a ground wire. If that's the case, would it be a possibility to hook into that circuit for a new outlet in the bedroom? ninja edit: If plastic boxes and cloth wire are so far apart in time, is it breaking any code? In other words, what's the likelyhood that something else bad was done and not inspected properly?
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2013 20:46
|
|
|
Giant Isopod posted:I didn't mess with the 2 wires in the back. I prodded them with the tester and it did not look like they were hot so I assume they are on the same circuit. I was surprised by the cloth wrapped wire as well, but I didn't realize it was that old. You didn't answer my question. Are there 2 wires twisted together under either wire nut? Keep in mind, even with all the breakers on, that wire may still be unpowered. Abandoning cable inside boxes and walls is a legal practice, but who would abandon newer cable for cloth wire? It's very possible that the kitchen, dining room and bathroom circuits were grounded from the start. That was common even a few years before 1960. However, expect to find an undersized ground wire. For branch circuits in houses, the ground wire has to be at least as large as the conductor wires. In older NM cable, they sometimes used a size under for the ground, ex. 16# in 14# NM and #14 in 12# NM. fake edit: I took a closer look at the first outlet picture you took. Is there plastic sheathing underneath that cloth?
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2013 21:47
|
|
|
kid sinister posted:You didn't answer my question. Are there 2 wires twisted together under either wire nut? Ah, sorry, the answer is: I don't know because I didn't really touch them at all. I'm not sure about the plastic sheeting either. Everything was pretty covered in crud. I'll add that to the list of things to look at tonight.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2013 21:57
|
|
|
Giant Isopod posted:Ah, sorry, the answer is: I don't know because I didn't really touch them at all. It's probably drained-out-of-a-tree rubber under the cloth. Looks roughly 30s-era.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2013 23:48
|
|
|
Well, poo poo. I investigated the cloth covered wires, and yes, there's something other than them. It's black and plasticy - I can't really tell if its plastic or rubber. It's crumbly as poo poo. Sorry about the lovely pictures.  The two wires in the back of that outlet are not twisted pairs, they're individual wires. They appear to be covered in the same plasticy cover, just no cloth sheath. Only one is pictures but they look pretty much the same. One has a flaking white color, the other looks to be black, so I am guessing they are just hot/neutral meant to continue the circuit from that outlet but were not used.  The outlet in the dining room on the other side of the wall, despite being 3 pronged, doesn't look to be grounded. Please let me know if I'm interpreting this wrong, but there's no wire on the green screw.  Also, every 3 prong outlet in the living room and dining room appears to be ungrounded. I opened up a couple, but just deferred to my tester plug for most of them.  The kitchen, however, does have a ground, in 3 out of 4 outlets, and the wiring on those is definitely newer. There's a GFI outlet near the sink that I didn't investigate because I am dumb and forget things.   It isn't visible, I don't think, but the kitchen gang boxes don't appear to be attached very well to anything, and are very wobbly.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 04:11
|
|
|
Sure looks like what's known as "knob and tube" for the single wires. That's natural rubber insulation under cloth weave, which holds the rubber on and protects it from abrasion. Unless both wires go into a metal cladding, which is metal clad/BX cable.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 21:09
|
|
|
Suggested 3-5 year maintenance item - check the integrity of your HVAC cabling. Yesterday I came home to a hot house. Troubleshot a bit and determined that the 24VAC power supply transformer feeding the inside unit was toasted. Hunted around and got two spares from an HVAC buddy. Hooked one up and noticed it was humming badly, and after a few seconds started smoking a tiny bit. I caught it quickly, but did notice that it dropped to like 5-8 volts across the secondary. I pulled the control board and nothing was smoked, it was clean and happy. All power resistors tested within tolerance. Then I googled a bit and got a suggestion of 'contactor'. I pulled the cover off and tested outside - 11 ohms. Seems to be about right for a big rear end relay. But ho! Dead short across the two control conductors. Came back inside and found those and disconnected them, so I knew I was dealing with just the wires. Still a dead short. Go outside and start tracing the wire back. Quickly, I found that the wires were frayed, completely bare and shorting where they entered the house. Looks like when they ran the new lines, they pulled the wires too taut and it rubbed against the edge of the hole. Carefully spliced in a new run of cable from the hole to the compressor, ensuring that everything was weatherproof. Hooked it up, did a smoke test and let 'er rip. Cooling down nicely now. E: Oh, and we haven't had fan-only operation ever since a tech replaced our control board under warranty years ago. I got curious and noticed that the low speed fan wire was on a park terminal, and nothing was on the FAN terminal. Plugged it in, boom, low speed fan-only. Wife is very happy. Jonny 290 fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jul 5, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2013 23:49
|
|
|
Jonny 290 posted:
'fan only' has never worked on my (frankenunit that the previous owner mashed together from what I think are 3 separate manufacturers) blower -- thanks for a thing to check.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 01:40
|
|
|
If I understand what Johnny did there, with the non functional fan auto/on, his solution would not be a very common one because most residential units are not variable speed. Your issue would generally be a problem with the tstat, assuming that the blower comes on fine in normal operation in auto.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 03:29
|
|
|
angryrobots posted:If I understand what Johnny did there, with the non functional fan auto/on, his solution would not be a very common one because most residential units are not variable speed. Your issue would generally be a problem with the tstat, assuming that the blower comes on fine in normal operation in auto. I can hear a relay click when I slide from fan to auto, and in either mode the fan comes on when there's a call for cooling so I always figured there was something messed up elsewhere.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 16:12
|
|
|
Assuming you have a typical setup, if your blower operates normally in auto, the control circuit is fine. The tstat controls fan operation.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 20:40
|
|
|
My A/C motor went out over Memorial Day last year, and it took such a stupid long time to order a replacement that I just told them to go ahead and put in a one-speed replacement. I should have toughed it out. I miss the variable-speed.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2013 22:20
|
|
|
Is there any way to test if a GFCI outlet is getting "weak"? My sump pump under the house is plugged in to a GFCI outlet and sometimes it trips for what seems to be no reason and then I end up with a are in my crawl space.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2013 03:44
|
|
|
Rubiks Pubes posted:Is there any way to test if a GFCI outlet is getting "weak"? My sump pump under the house is plugged in to a GFCI outlet and sometimes it trips for what seems to be no reason and then I end up with a are in my crawl space. There are incremental GFCI testers, but I have no idea how much they cost. They have different leakage settings, 1mA, 3mA, 5mA, 7mA, 14mA, and 20mA. Household GFCIs should trip between 4-6mA, so no trip on the first two, it's ok on the third, and must for all the rest. GFPE (equipment stuff, like sump pumps and whatnot) can trip from 13-19mA, so that's what those settings are for. If there's a bunch of nuisance tripping, replace the GFCI, but keep the old one. If the new one trips, now you get to figure out why your sump pump's insulation is breaking down.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2013 05:33
|
|
|
angryrobots posted:If I understand what Johnny did there, with the non functional fan auto/on, his solution would not be a very common one because most residential units are not variable speed. Your issue would generally be a problem with the tstat, assuming that the blower comes on fine in normal operation in auto. Every house I've lived in - not counting apartments - had a 3 speed motor in the air handler. Even houses from the late 60s that still had the original furnace, with no control board. Those ran on the same speed no matter what mode was being used, you'd have to swap some wires around if you wanted to change fan speeds between seasons. My 1994 York furnace lets you choose different speeds for heat and cool, by swapping wires around. If you want to use the same fan speed for all functions (heat, cool, and fan-only), you install jumpers on the control board. Not really a true variable speed, but the installer (or homeowner) can set different fan speeds for different modes if they need to on anything with a remotely modern control board (so probably late 80s and newer).
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2013 09:07
|
|
|
Edit: I was trying to eliminate confusion but if you want to get into all that then go ahead.
angryrobots fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Jul 7, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2013 12:38
|
|
|
Giant Isopod posted:The outlet in the dining room on the other side of the wall, despite being 3 pronged, doesn't look to be grounded. Please let me know if I'm interpreting this wrong, but there's no wire on the green screw. Ground wires don't always have to be attached to ground screws. If that device is in a metal box and the box is grounded, then it's OK to use a self-grounding device there. Loose boxes can happen in older homes. The nails and brackets holding the box to the studs just lose their grip over time. If you like, you can use a utility hacksaw in the existing wall hole to cut the box away from the stud, maneuver the box out the hole, then put an old work box in its place.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2013 21:54
|
|
|
kid sinister posted:Ground wires don't always have to be attached to ground screws. If that device is in a metal box and the box is grounded, then it's OK to use a self-grounding device there. I am slightly confused, by 'that device' do you mean the receptacle, or the hypothetical device that would be plugged into it? That outlet isn't grounded according to my tester, and is in a plastic box. None of them are, except in the kitchen, which, incidentally, is where all of the loose boxes are. None of the old boxes are loose, just the newly re-wired ones. It looks like all of electrical renovation work (including installing the breaker panel) were done by a friend-of-a-son's-friend type guy who does this sort of thing on the side. At this point I feel that I'm not really comfortable dicking around with things as I feel in over my head and I've asked the owner to call in an electrician to look over everything. He should be doing this today.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2013 22:37
|
|
|
I meant any device in that box.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2013 22:59
|
|
|
I'm in need of some advice regarding an upcoming project I have at work. I'm going to be setting up a ladder tray for our video/ethernet wiring going from our master control area to where we have our satellite equipment. Already have the ladder tray and all the hardware needed to get that setup, the problem is the walls. I'm going to be going through two separate drywall walls and I need a lot of room. Currently we have about 60-70 ethernet sized wires running under a raised floor and I'm looking to move most of them to the ladder tray or re-run them. Since I have so many wires I was thinking about using some large diameter PVC or ABS as like a mini conduit going through the walls. I'm also trying to figure out a way to secure the pvc. One other issue I have is that one of the walls I'm going to have to plug the gap with material since it will be between a halon area and one that has conventional fire suppression, at least that is what the guy that services our halon system said. Any ideas or different ways to go about this.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2013 00:25
|
|
|
Typically I've seen rigid metallic conduit run through the walls with a plastic bushing threaded onto each end to protect the cables. Red fire cement/firestop putty or whatever filling around the conduit, with something or other (don't know exactly what) stuffed in around the wires inside the conduit to keep fire from spreading through it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2013 00:58
|
|
|
Take this with as many grains of salt as you possibly can, but I've done a couple fireproof designs for semiconductor gas boxes and a few explosionproof designs for a facility gas delivery and safety system: For fireproof stuff, use rigid metallic and the appropriate fire rated fittings. Use firestop putty at the penetrations as well as internal to the wiring. For explosionproof stuff, double-walled rigid metallic and explosionproof fittings with firestop putty and baffling.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2013 02:26
|
|
|
diremonk posted:I'm going to have to plug the gap with material since it will be between a halon area and one that has conventional fire suppression, at least that is what the guy that services our halon system said. Any ideas or different ways to go about this. This is one area I may be of help in. First, read this: http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/fire-stopping-what-every-contractor-needs-know It's a good primer on the rating of the material you will need for your calking/fire stopping through the penetration. What you need depends on what materials you use for your conduit (which is probably going to have to be metal). If it's going from an area with any kind of gas discharge/displacement system (I doubt you have Halon unless it's been in there forever, but it doesn't really matter) to an area without one or with a separate zone of that system it has to be ABSOLUTELY air tight. In fact, you may even be required to pass a "door fan test" at the conclusion of the work if you have to pull permits.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2013 02:26
|
|
|
diremonk posted:I'm in need of some advice regarding an upcoming project I have at work. I'm going to be setting up a ladder tray for our video/ethernet wiring going from our master control area to where we have our satellite equipment. http://www.stifirestop.com/products/ez-path/
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2013 04:52
|
|
|
Holy crap those are awesome.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2013 19:21
|
|
|
Giant Isopod posted:I am slightly confused, by 'that device' do you mean the receptacle, or the hypothetical device that would be plugged into it? That outlet isn't grounded according to my tester, and is in a plastic box. None of them are, except in the kitchen, which, incidentally, is where all of the loose boxes are. None of the old boxes are loose, just the newly re-wired ones. It looks like all of electrical renovation work (including installing the breaker panel) were done by a friend-of-a-son's-friend type guy who does this sort of thing on the side. That loose box in the kitchen specifically is a cut-in box, probably bakelite or plastic, and the metal wings/ears/straps/whatever at both sides of the box are kind half-assed in there. You can tighten up the straps, but the electrician can also do it in about 15 seconds per box. The old boxes look like bakelite, and never had any grounds run to them. Doing that yourself may suck. diremonk posted:I'm in need of some advice regarding an upcoming project I have at work. I'm going to be setting up a ladder tray for our video/ethernet wiring going from our master control area to where we have our satellite equipment. When we have a bunch of wire coming through the wall, we put in 3" or 4" pvc nipples, with plastic bell ends on each end to hold them in the drywall. When all the wires are run, fill the gap with intumescent firestop putty or sealant.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2013 01:42
|
|
|
Motronic posted:Holy crap those are awesome. Yeah they are. There are a bunch of imitator products but STI are the originals. We use these in data centers a lot.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2013 01:45
|
|
|
I'm trying to wire an outlet/switch combo so that the outlet always has power regardless of what position the switch is in. One of these. So without killing myself is there a way to determine how this needs to be wired? I've already got it working to the point where the light turns on and there's power to the outlet, but when the switch is flipped the power to the outlet goes off. The problem I'm having is not knowing which wires coming out of the wall do what. Here's what I have: Ground wire Red Wire 2 Black wires joined into 1 with wire nut (Hot line?) 2 White wires joines into 1 with wire nut (Neutral?)  Do I need to remove the nut from the black line and attach it in two positions so that the top and bottom are both receiving power?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2013 20:06
|
|
|
Astonishing Wang posted:Do I need to remove the nut from the black line and attach it in two positions so that the top and bottom are both receiving power? Yes. That thing is basically two completely separate electrical devices in one big plastic brick. Nothing should be connected internally. Get a small piece of black wire, put it under the wire nut, and put it to the two black screws. Red wire goes to brass screw. White wire goes to white screw. Ground wire to green screw.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2013 21:04
|
|
|
Depends on what the actual brand is. If it's a Cooper combo switch it should have a break-off tab and is even easier; black on black, white to silver and red to copper, and no jumpers necessary. If it doesn't have a tab, yeah, you need to pigtail it. Would make more sense if they all had tabs; pretty just exactly what they're made for. grover fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Jul 15, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2013 21:11
|
|
|
grover posted:Depends on what the actual brand is. If it's a Cooper combo switch it should have a break-off tab and is even easier; black on black, white to silver and red to copper, and no jumpers necessary. If it doesn't have a tab, yeah, you need to pigtail it. Would make more sense if they all had tabs; pretty just exactly what they're made for. I already broke the tab off, I was just a little thrown because I need one more wire than I have. I can just take off the wire nut and use the two black lines as they are, correct?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2013 22:47
|
|
|
Astonishing Wang posted:I already broke the tab off, I was just a little thrown because I need one more wire than I have. I can just take off the wire nut and use the two black lines as they are, correct?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2013 23:10
|
|
|
Astonishing Wang posted:I already broke the tab off, I was just a little thrown because I need one more wire than I have. I can just take off the wire nut and use the two black lines as they are, correct? Probably not. It looks like one set goes somewhere else. You can scare up wire of absolutely any color as long as its 12ga solid copper and be fine. It'd be nice if you taped it black or something, but electrons don't care what color the insulation is, and you're a homeowner DIYing it, so it's basically expected that SOMEWHERE something will be not quite right.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2013 03:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 20:41 |
|
|
I'd recommend taping or painting/sharpie-ing it black (or literally any color other than white, grey, or green.) No reason not to do it right when it's that easy.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2013 04:12
|
|