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The whole http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia_Affair was horrific. Plus there was a cover up. One of the least Canadian pieces of recent Canadian history. quote:Estimates have ranged from 15-80 other soldiers could hear or observe the beating, but did not intervene.[14][25] Corporal MacDonald, acting as duty signaller that night, was asked by Sgt. Major Mills about "a long dragged out howl" heard from the vicinity of the bunker, but MacDonald refused to stop playing Game Boy to investigate. Later, Matchee came by to borrow a cigarette from MacDonald and mentioned that "now the Black man would fear the Indian as he did the white man", and MacDonald went outside to check on Arone's status. He saw Matchee hitting him in the face with the baton, and reported that the prisoner was "getting a good poo poo-kicking" to Sgt. Perry Gresty, before retiring to bed for the night.[14]
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Jul 9, 2013 19:10
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That'll teach those fuckin' terrorist thugs to take up arms against their liberators 
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Jul 9, 2013 19:42
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Baloogan posted:The whole http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia_Affair was horrific. Plus there was a cover up. This is why it's so important to have high quality training and education for the Forces. Unfortunately, training and development is usually the first to go when the budget is cut. I guess they need the money for other important things like updating the Army rank structure.
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Jul 9, 2013 20:25
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Dreylad posted:It's a Man's Life in the I have a close family friend who works with the air cadets and is knee-deep in the workings of the local legions. The excuse she gives for supporting this change, along with bringing back the "royal" names last year, is that it honours WWII veterans and makes their sons happy. There has apparently been a vocal minority of veteran families who have been lobbying for these kind of changes for years. When we talked about last year's change, I asked about how it seemed to disregard modern veterans and people currently in the military, and she claimed that they overwhelmingly supported the change as well. I don't believe that last part, though.
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Jul 9, 2013 20:25
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Huge Liability posted:I have a close family friend who works with the air cadets and is knee-deep in the workings of the local legions. The excuse she gives for supporting this change, along with bringing back the "royal" names last year, is that it honours WWII veterans and makes their sons happy. There has apparently been a vocal minority of veteran families who have been lobbying for these kind of changes for years. When we talked about last year's change, I asked about how it seemed to disregard modern veterans and people currently in the military, and she claimed that they overwhelmingly supported the change as well. I don't believe that last part, though. I'm not going to speak for everyone in the military, but I think general sentiment is minor approval of the change IF everything else wasn't currently being slashed to pieces by budget cuts.
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Jul 9, 2013 20:27
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What's amazing is that at this point, it's the veteran's sons who are old enough to be retired. They didn't even fight
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Jul 9, 2013 20:28
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Freeze posted:I'm not going to speak for everyone in the military, but I think general sentiment is minor approval of the change IF everything else wasn't currently being slashed to pieces by budget cuts. Yeah I think the Liberal response is on point here. Regardless of any issues some people might take about the problematic symbolism of switching to the old ranks(which I think are an issue, but I imagine most people don't care), at the same time they're gutting a lot of important support programs in the armed forces. Of course, it's not like Canada has a great track record of going to war with a well-funded and well-equipped army either.
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Jul 9, 2013 20:59
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Freeze posted:This is why it's so important to have high quality training and education for the Forces. Unfortunately, training and development is usually the first to go when the budget is cut. I guess they need the money for other important things like updating the Army rank structure. Training and development stops sadistic behaviour in those with a proclivity for it? 
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Jul 9, 2013 22:00
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http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/07/09/quebec-lac-megantic-eyewitness-video.html Look at those explosions..
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Jul 9, 2013 22:51
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I've met a number of people who were in the Airborne Division, some really gentle and kind individuals. Everyone says the same thing though, it was a different world being a part of that group of men. When you knew what they did to each other that Somali Affair seemed sorta par for the course.
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Jul 9, 2013 22:54
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Huge Liability posted:I have a close family friend who works with the air cadets and is knee-deep in the workings of the local legions. The excuse she gives for supporting this change, along with bringing back the "royal" names last year, is that it honours WWII veterans and makes their sons happy. There has apparently been a vocal minority of veteran families who have been lobbying for these kind of changes for years. When we talked about last year's change, I asked about how it seemed to disregard modern veterans and people currently in the military, and she claimed that they overwhelmingly supported the change as well. I don't believe that last part, though. Yeah my impression is that a) it devalues all the people who served, fought, and died in the new uniform in basically every peacekeeping mission Canada ever went on plus Afghanistan, and b) there are much more important things to be spending time and money on than this, even within the armed forces. Diefenbaker already tried turning back towards Britain once, Steve, and it didn't work then either.
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Jul 9, 2013 23:48
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Lexicon posted:Training and development stops sadistic behaviour in those with a proclivity for it? Proper training and development prevents there from being entire units where honesty and professionalism are not regarded as important. Something like the Somalia incident just couldn't happen in the CF today.
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Jul 10, 2013 00:20
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Ghost of Castro posted:I've met a number of people who were in the Airborne Division, some really gentle and kind individuals. Everyone says the same thing though, it was a different world being a part of that group of men. When you knew what they did to each other that Somali Affair seemed sorta par for the course. The biggest problem with Airborne was that they were the elite regiment of the army and because of that, a good number of their superiors in NDHQ came from their ranks. That old-boys club created an atmosphere of tolerance to their behaviour, as you never want to be seen turning your back on your Airborne brothers. What started out as harmless antics and traditions (like jumping out of mess hall windows shouting "Airborne!") became more and more ugly over time, until it got to the level of the full-on hazing culture that created the environment that would bring about the whole Somalia mess. The disbanding of the Airborne Regiment was really the only option the government had; the military brass was all too happy to keep sweeping their behaviour under the rug because, well, AIRBORNE. Plus it sent an unequivocal message to the brass that the government was no longer willing to tolerate any kind of harassment-type behaviour in the military, and that they had better fix the problem because your asses are on the line next. When I was an Air Cadet in the mid-late 1990s they had just finished implementing a sweeping, Forces-wide harassment prevention program that proved to be at least somewhat effective (the cadets were covered by the program as they are jointly run by the DND and the civilian Cadet Leagues).
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Jul 10, 2013 00:28
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It also led to the immediate reduction of Canadian military spending by nearly 25% from the time of the killing to the inquiry.
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Jul 10, 2013 00:31
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Thank God we have a strong leader who will cut the military the slack it deserves (while cutting its budget)
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Jul 10, 2013 00:58
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It's ok, we'll make up the shortfall in the Army's budget by billeting soldiers with civilians and returning to foraging and looting.
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Jul 10, 2013 01:46
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Where are our strategic women's underwear reserves???
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Jul 10, 2013 01:48
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Conservatives are blustering, ham-fisted childrenquote:Israeli officials encouraged Canada not to cut its foreign aid to the Palestinian Authority in retaliation for the Palestinians seeking upgraded status at the United Nations last year, new documents show.
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Jul 10, 2013 03:40
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Canada: More in support of Israeli Apartheid than Israel.
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Jul 10, 2013 03:42
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I have no idea why they have such a hard-on for Israel
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Jul 10, 2013 03:56
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Because if we create a Jewish state in the holy land, it'll be like in Revelation and that means Jesus will return to us. It is ordained in scripture. 
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Jul 10, 2013 04:25
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I once had the truly unfortunate pleasure of visiting Guzoo "behind the scenes" and it was an absolute loving pigsty. It's completely odious that Gustafson isn't being fined into financial oblivion.
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Jul 10, 2013 04:26
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THC posted:Because if we create a Jewish state in the holy land, it'll be like in Revelation and that means Jesus will return to us. It is ordained in scripture.
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Jul 10, 2013 04:31
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I don't give a poo poo about Israel or Palestine. Why are we giving $300M to a foreign country over five years?
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Jul 10, 2013 04:36
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Alctel posted:I have no idea why they have such a hard-on for Israel In all seriousness, I think it's because Conservative foreign policy is plagiarized off the Bush administration. Same reason we're getting all this weird jingoistic military poo poo with the war of 1812 and going back to the old rank system. There may have been people pushing for it before, but the Conservatives are, IMO, using American conservative positions to benefit from the messaging and spin it can provide. It's basically a warping of the Canadian national identity to better serve conservative interest groups.
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Jul 10, 2013 04:43
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:Why are we giving $300M to a foreign country over five years?
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Jul 10, 2013 05:22
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Alctel posted:I have no idea why they have such a hard-on for Israel If we're more American than the Americans, maybe they'll finally love us.
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Jul 10, 2013 05:42
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Kafka Esq. posted:Is there a problem with doing so? When we're having to cut important services at home, yeah kinda.
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Jul 10, 2013 05:51
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We really don't have to cut any services, the Conservatives are doing so to satisfy a political position on the size of the government.
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Jul 10, 2013 05:52
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Kafka Esq. posted:We really don't have to cut any services, the Conservatives are doing so to satisfy a political position on the size of the government. Okay. I'm not really trying to go into how our deficit is a lie or anything. Why are my taxes going to Palestine and/or Israel? Is it a global political thing? Especially an amount like $300M over five years. Even if we had a billion dollar surplus I'd be questioning that.
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Jul 10, 2013 06:22
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Vermain posted:I once had the truly unfortunate pleasure of visiting Guzoo "behind the scenes" and it was an absolute loving pigsty. It's completely odious that Gustafson isn't being fined into financial oblivion. I really don't know either. It seems every Albertan who's ever heard of it outside the Gustafsons seems pretty unhappy about it.
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Jul 10, 2013 06:34
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:Okay. I'm not really trying to go into how our deficit is a lie or anything. Why are my taxes going to Palestine and/or Israel? Is it a global political thing? This isn't the place to get into the complexities and problems of foreign aid, but what do you think CIDA did? It was the department of giving money to foreigners before DFAIT swallowed it. We give out a lot more than 300 million over 5 years. It's just the dominant understanding of how international development works, and especially in the case of Palestine, it often constitutes emergency aid for the provision of things like food or medical care.
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Jul 10, 2013 06:38
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Cordyceps Headache posted:This isn't the place to get into the complexities and problems of foreign aid, but what do you think CIDA did? It was the department of giving money to foreigners before DFAIT swallowed it. We give out a lot more than 300 million over 5 years. It's just the dominant understanding of how international development works, and especially in the case of Palestine, it often constitutes emergency aid for the provision of things like food or medical care. I just googled and got nothing, how much money does Israel give to foreign aid? It's a comparatively pretty well-off country. As an irrelevance, I once had a CIDA-funded RA-ship; it was almost entirely wasted money, but it was a job, so I did it.
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Jul 10, 2013 06:56
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:Okay. I'm not really trying to go into how our deficit is a lie or anything. Why are my taxes going to Palestine and/or Israel? Is it a global political thing?  "HELPING PEOPLE WITH ARE TAX MONEYS"Seriously though, it's largely for humanitarian aid purposes, is there a reason you think a first world nation like Canada (and that includes a large amount of its citizens) should not be trying to make sure things like food and medical supplies are available to those in need?
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Jul 10, 2013 07:02
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FeloniousDrunk posted:I just googled and got nothing, how much money does Israel give to foreign aid? It's a comparatively pretty well-off country. As an irrelevance, I once had a CIDA-funded RA-ship; it was almost entirely wasted money, but it was a job, so I did it. From what I remember, Israel gives foreign aid through sending experts abroad and doing training programs. I don't think they do any direct cash funding like many other countries do.
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Jul 10, 2013 07:03
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JawKnee posted:
Like Attawapiskat maybe?
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Jul 10, 2013 07:05
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Faux Shoah posted:Like Attawapiskat maybe? Does helping those abroad mean we are barred from doing the same at home or do you for some reason think I'm going to disagree with you?
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Jul 10, 2013 07:06
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JawKnee posted:Does helping those abroad mean we are barred from doing the same at home or do you for some reason think I'm going to disagree with you? No, I mean when we literally have people in this country who live in third world conditions, Canadians come first. Always. Foreign aid could be much better spent back home on development rather than on partially funding Iron Dome and Qassam rockets.
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Jul 10, 2013 07:10
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Faux Shoah posted:No, I mean when we literally have people in this country who live in third world conditions, Canadians come first. Always. Foreign aid could be much better spent back home on development rather than on partially funding Iron Dome and Qassam rockets. I doubt that's where funding ends up, but my point was that we can do both. Because we have the money for both. And the reason Attawapiskat happened isn't because of a lack of funding, but because of a lack of empathy, kind of like when people say we shouldn't fund humanitarian efforts.
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Jul 10, 2013 07:11
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Faux Shoah posted:No, I mean when we literally have people in this country who live in third world conditions, Canadians come first. Always. Foreign aid could be much better spent back home on development rather than on partially funding Iron Dome and Qassam rockets. Bah, this is just like the dumb debate that occasionally flares in the spaceflight thread. It's a false dichotomy. You can't just take the money from overseas development and stick it into aid to First Nations Reserves, because the latter is at least a little bit popular, whereas the latter is not. It would be great if we could improve conditions on the reserves, but the first step in doing so is admitting that there is a problem, and that it's mostly the Government of Canada's doing. Nobody is about to admit that. It's dumb, but so it is.
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Jul 10, 2013 07:21
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