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Wade Wilson posted:Poor Andi gets in so much trouble all the time, she's like the Daphne Blake of the group. Harry's Day Off is my favorite of the "goofy" stories. The Warrior is my pick for something more serious. I still haven't read Even Hand, because it's not in Side Jobs. But I hear it's good!
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Jul 9, 2013 21:59
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ConfusedUs posted:Harry's Day Off is my favorite of the "goofy" stories. It is, Marcone is pretty badass.
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Jul 9, 2013 22:25
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ConfusedUs posted:Harry's Day Off is my favorite of the "goofy" stories. Butcher does this story much better than the others, Marcone sounds considerably different from Harry unlike in the Thomas story.
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Jul 10, 2013 01:33
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Where can I read it?
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Jul 10, 2013 03:20
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Dravs posted:This is like the lowest point for Harry, I really can't see things getting much worse. Wade Wilson posted:Poor Andi gets in so much trouble all the time, she's like the Daphne Blake of the group.
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Jul 10, 2013 03:32
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Wade Wilson posted:Where can I read it? It's in the short story compilation, Dark and Stormy Knights. I don't think its carried in any major book store anymore so you'll probably have to order it from amazon.
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Jul 10, 2013 04:32
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Azuth0667 posted:It's in the short story compilation, Dark and Stormy Knights. I don't think its carried in any major book store anymore so you'll probably have to order it from amazon. Get it from a library! When I came on shift at the reference desk tonight, there was some scrap paper that the librarian who had been there in the afternoon left. One of the things on it was "butcher storm front." I doubt he told the patron to give the series a few books before deciding against it, though.
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Jul 10, 2013 04:43
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Skellen posted:You should all read this, it's fantastic. Um yeah, this is great. It sort of reminds me of Animorphs but really dark and with superheroes.
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Jul 10, 2013 19:54
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Wachepti posted:Um yeah, this is great. It sort of reminds me of Animorphs but really dark and with superheroes. Animorphs ends with them mass conscripting crippled kids as soldiers (and sending them to their deaths) and committing literal war crimes. Along with all the fun slavery, murder and incredible gore that permeates the series. How much darker can you really get than that?
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Jul 10, 2013 20:24
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I've been reading these books because a friend recommended them. My rec to him was Discworld. Just about certain he is getting a much better deal on this one. I'm in book three and though this one is much better than the last, I am getting annoyed again. Does Butcher ever stop repeating himself or stop seeming like a fifteen year old virgin? I can't believe how repetitive the writing is. I like the storytelling a lot. But man, the writing is so bad I don't know how much more I can take. Please tell me it improves.
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Jul 10, 2013 20:33
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Zore posted:Animorphs ends with them mass conscripting crippled kids as soldiers (and sending them to their deaths) and committing literal war crimes. Along with all the fun slavery, murder and incredible gore that permeates the series. Haha, I guess I didn't get that far.
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Jul 10, 2013 20:57
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Zore posted:Animorphs ends with them mass conscripting crippled kids as soldiers (and sending them to their deaths) and committing literal war crimes. Along with all the fun slavery, murder and incredible gore that permeates the series. Good ol' Animorphs. Nothing quite like ending a series with the teenage protagonist ordering the mass murder of captured soldiers.
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Jul 10, 2013 21:15
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Waltzing Along posted:I've been reading these books because a friend recommended them. My rec to him was Discworld. Just about certain he is getting a much better deal on this one. Book 3 is where it gets good. The first two are kinda terrible. The writing issues don't instantly go away, but they get better for sure. Harry starts being less goony and matures quite a bit (although he's still kind of an immature smartass), and the repetition gets a bit better but it's worth learning to just skim over it (in terms of repeated explanations between books, I didn't really notice too much repetition in-book after 3 or 4). Give it at least until the end of book 3, but if you still aren't feelin' it by book 4 the series probably isn't for you. Edit: Keep in mind that this was pretty much the first publishable thing Butcher wrote. So yeah, he improves a lot as an author as time goes by. Arcsech fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Jul 10, 2013 |
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Jul 10, 2013 21:16
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ImpAtom posted:Good ol' Animorphs. Nothing quite like ending a series with the teenage protagonist ordering the mass murder of captured soldiers. Man, Animorphs really did get get crazy dark at the end. And then ended on a pretty harsh cliffhanger including killing off one of the protagonists and cutting the final book moments before the rest go out in a blaze of suicidal glory. I really wanted there to be more to that series; the shift from waging a war in the background to "full on occupation of major population centers and open resistance from morph-capable kids/teens" made for some dramatic poo poo.
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Jul 10, 2013 21:35
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Arcsech posted:Book 3 is where it gets good. The first two are kinda terrible. The writing issues don't instantly go away, but they get better for sure. Harry starts being less goony and matures quite a bit (although he's still kind of an immature smartass), and the repetition gets a bit better but it's worth learning to just skim over it (in terms of repeated explanations between books, I didn't really notice too much repetition in-book after 3 or 4). I'd planned on reading up to book three and I am here. I just had to put it down when he described his apartment again and I wondered if it was just copy and pasted from the other books. Then I came here to bitch. As I said, I like the stories. And I know that this is his early stuff. In comparison to Discworld. The first few books are completely different from the ones in which Pterry has gotten his fee under him. But the writing was never bad, it was just a bit heavier.
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Jul 10, 2013 21:37
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Waltzing Along posted:I'd planned on reading up to book three and I am here. I just had to put it down when he described his apartment again and I wondered if it was just copy and pasted from the other books. Then I came here to bitch. As I said, I like the stories. And I know that this is his early stuff. Butcher does re-use quick intros a lot, but he gets better about it. The end of Book 3 changes a lot of things, and the new intros reflect that in the next book. And the events from that book are reflected in the book after. And so on. So only in the first three is the character "static" and reusing the exact same introductions all the time. After that, you'll still get quick intros, but they will vary over time, just like the characters do. Butcher will probably never be as good a writer as Pratchett, but he's one of the few authors who seems to get better with every book.
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Jul 10, 2013 21:52
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Well keep in mind that Storm Front was literally Butcher's very first published work. You're pretty much watching him work out the rough edges in real time.
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Jul 10, 2013 22:01
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Yeah the only time I've seen quality drop and not go up with Butcher is in the Alera series. Not the worst thing I've ever read but certainly not his best work. And it really is incredible being able to watch him build this world and mythology, even if for some reason I stopped enjoying the series I think I'd still read the books because I want to see how he weaves everything that he's got going on together.
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Jul 10, 2013 22:07
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why oh WHY posted:Yeah the only time I've seen quality drop and not go up with Butcher is in the Alera series. Not the worst thing I've ever read but certainly not his best work. Alera peaked in book 3, which was amazing. The last few books lacked that panache that the third had.
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Jul 10, 2013 22:13
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Zore posted:Animorphs ends with them mass conscripting crippled kids as soldiers (and sending them to their deaths) and committing literal war crimes. Along with all the fun slavery, murder and incredible gore that permeates the series. Well, you could read the new series the bloke has got out. It's actually really good. And really dark. I'm not entirely sure if it's Urban Fantasy but gently caress it, I like the series so I'll recommend it anyway. Gone, by Michael Grant, has a pretty cliche setup - everybody above the age of 15 disappears suddenly, and also some kids start to develop super powers. Like I said, kind of samey. While it could be a boring, save the world sort of story, it's much more like a post-apocalyptic tale starring children with very real concerns and flaws. It's been described as Stephen King writing a crossover between X-Men and Lord Of The Flies, and hell, King even likes the books himself. Again, it's more Young Adult than Urban Fantasy, but it's definitely worth checking out. e: Apparently the American book covers are really lovely and make the series look like 90210, but that's not indicative of the series' quality. Promise. e2: If you have any intention of reading them, don't check them out on Wikipedia. The page literally lists out the entire plot of every book thus far without even a spoiler warning. Saith fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jul 10, 2013 |
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Jul 10, 2013 22:40
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I could never get into the Codex Alera for some reason. Don't know why. It wasn't the writing style. It just didn't grab me. Though now that I've tried to read more high fantasy like Mistborn (if that's the correct term) I might be able to like its format more. Might give it a second attempt after I finish the Mistborn series.
NotLiketheMermaid fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Jul 11, 2013 |
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Jul 11, 2013 04:52
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ConfusedUs posted:Butcher does re-use quick intros a lot, but he gets better about it. The end of Book 3 changes a lot of things, and the new intros reflect that in the next book. And the events from that book are reflected in the book after. And so on. Actually he's a better writer now!  Oh god Alzheimer's is the worst. Anyway, Waltzing Along, I suggest getting to book 4, which is honestly one of my favorites. It's before things get too crazy, Dresden is still fairly in the dark but isn't constantly running out of magic, and has an absolutely fantastic ending.
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Jul 11, 2013 11:38
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ConfusedUs posted:Alera peaked in book 3, which was amazing. Book 3 was almost too good. It really made the downhill slide of the remaining books that much more apparent. I still really enjoyed the series. I'd kill for an Alera RPG.
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Jul 11, 2013 12:05
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Devorum posted:Book 3 was almost too good. It really made the downhill slide of the remaining books that much more apparent. I still really enjoyed the series. I'd kill for an Alera RPG. Given that a Dresden RPG exists, Butcher would probably be open to the idea of one existing. Any game-design goons want to Kickstart an Alrea FATE conversion?
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Jul 11, 2013 12:34
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Devorum posted:Book 3 was almost too good. It really made the downhill slide of the remaining books that much more apparent. I still really enjoyed the series. I'd kill for an Alera RPG. Was Book 3 the one where they made a gigantic fuckoff laser beam from the Sun to burn up a bunch of super-wolves? But yeah, the book went downhill in a hurry once the main character gained the ability to use magic like everyone else.
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Jul 11, 2013 16:15
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Wade Wilson posted:Was Book 3 the one where they made a gigantic fuckoff laser beam from the Sun to burn up a bunch of super-wolves? Yes. It was. And that owned so much. One of Alera's biggest strengths is that of making unique cultures. The Canim are awesome, as are the Marat.
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Jul 11, 2013 17:11
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ConfusedUs posted:Yes. It was. And that owned so much. Yeah, usually when someone writes new cultures (or in scifi, aliens) it ends up invoking the "scientific racism" of the late 1800s - early 1900s. Butcher manages to side step this by fleshing out multiple factions with different motivations in groups - that way the culture is developed through show, not tell, and since there are multiple fleshed out and distinct characters it buries the rough edges of the culture.
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Jul 11, 2013 19:20
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Fried Chicken posted:Yeah, usually when someone writes new cultures (or in scifi, aliens) it ends up invoking the "scientific racism" of the late 1800s - early 1900s. Would you expand on this a little bit? I feel like I should understand what you mean, but some examples would probably help (so would some sleep, given the hour where I live).
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Jul 11, 2013 19:40
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Devorum posted:Book 3 was almost too good. It really made the downhill slide of the remaining books that much more apparent. I still really enjoyed the series. I'd kill for an Alera RPG. This makes me super sad because I just finished the third book and was really looking forward to the rest 
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Jul 11, 2013 19:58
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CyberLord XP posted:This makes me super sad because I just finished the third book and was really looking forward to the rest They're still good, but they're never as good as book 3.
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Jul 11, 2013 20:23
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Grundulum posted:Would you expand on this a little bit? I feel like I should understand what you mean, but some examples would probably help (so would some sleep, given the hour where I live). I think he might be talking about how All Klingons are Angry.
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Jul 11, 2013 20:34
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Grundulum posted:Would you expand on this a little bit? I feel like I should understand what you mean, but some examples would probably help (so would some sleep, given the hour where I live). Lots of fantasy and sci-fi races are little more than a collection of identical creatures based around specific traits. Racists in real life may, for example, believe that black people are dumb, boorish, violent, and generally inferior. Which is completely untrue, and I don't believe it for a second. Now go back 100 years, and imagine your snobby, aristocratic British scientist who profiles aboriginal races in the same manner. He writes up entire cultures as if they were all clones of the same person and defined by (inferior) traits. In much the same vein, goblins are dumb, boorish, violent, and generally inferior. Or perhaps knobbly-forehead aliens are all big, angry, and cannibals. Sci fi and fantasy tend to create these monolithic cultures full of identical people defined by traits.
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Jul 11, 2013 20:43
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edit: ^^^ Exactly.Grundulum posted:Would you expand on this a little bit? I feel like I should understand what you mean, but some examples would probably help (so would some sleep, given the hour where I live). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism The 4 minute summary is best summed up in the skull scene of Django Unchainged http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xwvgbi_django-unchained-old-ben_shortfilms#.Ud8E0EGshcY Basically, people have a narrative of how the world works. It is the level of simplified abstraction of every stereotype. But they needed that stereotype to make sense, so they invoked pseudoscience and pseudo history to explain it. They still do really - ask you average American to describe Iran or Africa, what it is like, and why it is like that. Then compare it reality. In fiction with other cultures and other species, it is even more pronounced. Here the narrative is literal - characters serve roles as defined by the hero's journey which greatly reduces how well fleshed out they are. You don't care about the dreams, hopes and ambitions of the blacksmith who reforged Andúril, you care about Aragon becoming the High King of Men. That means that when you bring in another culture, they get abstracted down to "how do they impact the protagonist". Then you need to justify why whole cultures and whole species will impact the protagonist like that, leading to the same sort of justification process used in scientific racism. More often, since writers are trained in how to write and not trained in economics, sociology, political science, and biology, they echo the claims of scientific racism either knowingly or unknowingly through lack of understanding, or knowingly through being an rear end in a top hat. The best example here is the Klingons from Star Trek. They needed an antagonist space alien for the narrative of the Enterprise. Fair enough. But they are always fighting, because that was their purpose in the story, so the Klingons got developed as "all of them are warriors", despite the fact that clearly they need some scientists and engineers to build their ships. Then the question is "well why are they all warriors?" and the answer was "well they have all these extra organs and muscles that make them great fighters, so that's how they resolve things". The scientific racism drawn upon here is "blacks all do manual labor". Why? "Well they are good at it, they have extra muscles that make them good, it is why they are good at sports too!" (And while I hope it doesn't need saying, no, they loving don't have an extra muscle in their legs, I'm citing the idiot idea, not defending it) Now given that Star Trek is supposed to be about overcoming that sort of bullshit and the writers and show runners went out of their way to piss off the racists of the 60s I very much doubt that mirroring was intentional. But this kind of crap is latent in our culture and tends to pop up anyways even when trying to avoid it like they were. There are two ways to get around this as a writer. One is massive blocks of info dump that read like a textbook, explaining the culture of your new group and how it came to be. This is regarded as good world building, but bad writing. The other is to show multiple fleshed out facets of the culture interacting with each other, make this a core part of the heroes journey, and leave the "why" as an exercise to the reader. Butcher does the latter - in the Canim he has 4 castes, but then multiple political factions in each caste, and multiple city-states with their own distinct goals, and political factions split not only across caste lines but city lines as well. He makes conflicts between their groups the centerpiece of a whole book so it gets fleshed out in a "show, don't tell fashion", and perhaps most importantly lets the conflict within the culture be resolved by the culture - it avoids the racist idea of the glorious outside invader who sorts it all out for those primitive natives (See also James Cameron's Avatar. "Follow me because I'm the best of you, even though I'm not one of you!"). Fried Chicken fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Jul 11, 2013 |
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Jul 11, 2013 20:56
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Fried Chicken posted:edit: ^^^ Exactly. This is very good stuff, and you should not just watch out for this but also what I would loosely call ethnocentrism. This was something we discussed at length in our anthropology classes because it was rampant. On a thumbnail, it's the whole idea of Western Civ and culture being superior, but it isn't just an attitude of "my culture is the best because it's the one I know most about", it's very pervasive even in how we think about other cultures. For example, when a lot of the work of understanding the rise of agriculture and the birth of cities was being done, there was a mindset that the culture that moved to agriculture was further "advanced" than one that remained nomadic. So the development of society was seen in terms of a progress from primitive to sophisticated, with primitive being the nomadic hunter-gatherer and sophisticated being the city-dweller who does something for a living other than gather food. This is also invoked (unconsciously) in Star Trek, with the Klingons apparently having a more "tribal" structure to their society (group of warriors, test of pain for adulthood, etc)
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Jul 11, 2013 21:15
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I dunno, if some species is very different from humans, you'd expect that individual variations in temperment wouldn't be picked up on if you didn't spend a lot of time with them. All dolphins look basically the same to anyone not a marine biologist... so you wouldn't expect for someone to be able to appreciate the subtleties of, say, Palainian culture beyond 'wow those guys are cowardly'.
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Jul 11, 2013 21:21
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Tunicate posted:I dunno, if some species is very different from humans, you'd expect that individual variations in temperment wouldn't be picked up on if you didn't spend a lot of time with them. All dolphins look basically the same to anyone not a marine biologist... so you wouldn't expect for someone to be able to appreciate the subtleties of, say, Palainian culture beyond 'wow those guys are cowardly'. I suppose those inventions can pop up in certain narrative styles. Basically books that are more "events happen" stories. But crucially in those books the main point of view is an observational one, not one of dynamic action. They also very often tend to suck for that reason (Left Behind, I'm looking at you) Also, given that Palainians are from the hey day of scientific racism, I don't think they are a good example of a race that isn't defined by it.
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Jul 11, 2013 23:13
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Thanks for the responses, everyone.
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Jul 12, 2013 05:36
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Fried Chicken posted:But the issue there is if they are that different, why are they interacting with the protagonist? They have to be similar enough that their motivations either aid or conflict with the hero's so it means they can't be that radically divergent. If your aliens are methane breathing Jovian inhabitants, why does the SS Goodship care? They won't invade our planet, we won't invade theirs, and technology is so different there is no trade, so what role do they have in the story? Having people with wildly different priorities and abilities should make trade work better, since they'll value something highly that you don't care about, and vice versa. I don't really see what's 'racist' about having aliens with wildly different physiologies and psychologies. If the Chmmr have attention spans significantly longer than humans, maybe sitting around for hours watching a flower bloom is super interesting in a way that doesn't really appeal to humanity. That difference'd translate into far longer drawn out meetings and slower (but possibly more sensible) decision-making, with Chmmr accountants being the best in the galaxy (or something). The fact that it's necessitated by their imperfectly fused silicon-and-mechanical neural harness shouldn't change anything.
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Jul 12, 2013 07:49
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Tunicate posted:I don't really see what's 'racist' about having aliens with wildly different physiologies and psychologies. If the Chmmr have attention spans significantly longer than humans, maybe sitting around for hours watching a flower bloom is super interesting in a way that doesn't really appeal to humanity. That difference'd translate into far longer drawn out meetings and slower (but possibly more sensible) decision-making, with Chmmr accountants being the best in the galaxy (or something). The fact that it's necessitated by their imperfectly fused silicon-and-mechanical neural harness shouldn't change anything. I think where it becomes 'racist' (or at least lazy) is when you just sort of never present or establish the Chmmr as being anything other than Space Accountants. Like there's a difference between saying "Klingons are a warrior race" and, say, "The pre-eminent Klingon society is one that celebrates a warrior ethos and those who don't embrace said ethos are marginalized within that society". (Of course, this still has the issue of establishing the entire Klingon species as a monoculture, which is also kind of a Star Trek thing, but eh, whatever.) It occurs to me to wonder how one might apply this principle to, say, vampires or similar supernatural critters as opposed to aliens. For all their flaws, the White Court are an interesting faction (if one that I think Butcher overuses) specifically because there's a diversity of motivations to them beyond "sucking the life out of people" and "being evil". Contrast them to, say, the Red Court who are or were comparatively simple monsters; once you know someone's a Red Court Vampire you know pretty much everything about them.
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Jul 12, 2013 12:11
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ConfusedUs posted:They're still good, but they're never as good as book 3. I actually enjoyed the lot of them and feel the series went from good to great going forward from the 3 book.
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Jul 12, 2013 19:49
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