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drunken officeparty posted:I'm sure everyone reading this thread knows everything about it, but I found this handy video that explains the ending I like the "perfect POV" followed by an actual POV shot. This dude is overanalyzing what is a pretty simple ending.
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Jul 15, 2013 17:45
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Tony Sopranos has another heart attack, questions answered. Right after an onion ring too. MVP fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jul 15, 2013 |
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Jul 15, 2013 17:49
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Rev. Bleech_ posted:I like the "perfect POV" followed by an actual POV shot. This dude is overanalyzing what is a pretty simple ending. Well one thing I didn't notice when the episode first aired was how obvious the POV shots at the beginning of the scene are. You are obviously being set up to experience the scene through Tony's eyes, and everything abruptly going black is pretty clear cut in that context. I've heard a lot of people say "The whole series is pretty much from Tony's perspective, so when he dies everything goes black", but I never really bought that as the only indicator and the others are pretty overt on re-watch. Between the Members-Only jacket thing, the POV shots, and the conversation earlier in the season that Tony has with Bobby, everything is very clear.
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Jul 15, 2013 17:58
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If there ever was a terrible sequel to the Sopranos it would be Silvio Dante waking up and hearing the bad news and becoming the boss. No one wants that garbage though.
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Jul 15, 2013 18:08
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The Sopranos is in no way solely from Tony's perspective.
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Jul 15, 2013 19:03
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So Tony's dead, and Sil is a vegetable. That leaves, what, Paulie as the highest ranking guy? Do you think he would have taken over or would New York finally move and absorb all the power?
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Jul 15, 2013 19:15
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Wait when did it become the accepted answer that Tony was killed, because that's not my reading at all.
marktheando fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Jul 15, 2013 |
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Jul 15, 2013 19:31
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Bonzo posted:So Tony's dead, and Sil is a vegetable. That leaves, what, Paulie as the highest ranking guy? Do you think he would have taken over or would New York finally move and absorb all the power? It reminds me of Tony's statement to Melfi from a few years earlier -- how he felt like he got into the Mafia at the end of it all. New York's not in much better shape. Phil's dead, Johnny Sack's dead, their most visible leader remaining is probably Butch, the guy Tony negotiated with. We don't know much at all about the other NY families, but there's no reason to think that they're any different. It's all falling apart, and while they might manage to keep things going at least in name, the "good" old days of the Mob are gone forever.
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Jul 15, 2013 19:31
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marktheando posted:Wait when did it become the accepted answer that Tony was killed, because that's not my reading at all. It's certainly open to interpretation, but I think most people read it as Tony dying when the music stops. See the video posted on the last page for a quick breakdown of the scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjviymV08c8
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Jul 15, 2013 19:42
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CPFortest posted:The Sopranos is in no way solely from Tony's perspective. Oh I totally agree, I found that line of reasoning to be bullshit, but I heard it very often in the days right after the finale aired. But when you look at the scene in question, it really is almost 100% from his POV. Everything is from his POV except one or two specific shots that establish important details like where the bathroom is in relation to their table. I think what confuses the situation is the drawn out Meadow parallel parking bit. That seems to be there just to gently caress with you and make you watch through your fingers expecting her to get blindsided or whacked as she walks in the place. Pure red herring.
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Jul 15, 2013 19:45
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marktheando posted:Wait when did it become the accepted answer that Tony was killed, because that's not my reading at all. We've had this coversation a dozen times but the short version of my take: keeping with its pattern, the penultimate episode truly concludes the series when Melfi finally ends Tony's therapy for good. The relationship that began the series is over, and the central question of whether Tony could change has been answered with a resounding "no." Everything else, including the protagonists' ultimate fate, is just a loose end, and either the death or the looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life interpretations are perfectly valid answers.
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Jul 15, 2013 20:10
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Ah right cool I thought from the way people were talking with such certainty I though David Chase had confirmed he died or something, so it's just the same old Sopranos ending chat.
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Jul 15, 2013 20:14
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My favourite theory (although not the one I personally go for, im in the 'He's Dead' crowd) is the 'Meadow Guardian Angel' theory. The theory goes that Meadow saved Tony's life at various points throughout the series, most notably... - Her presence is what stopped that guy from the witness protection program killing Tony when he and Meadow were visiting Universities - She took away the lamp with the FBI's wire tap - Her voice is what awoke Tony from his Coma - She is referred to as 'Number three is Khu, the Guardian Angel' when she is dancing in her underwear for Finn at the beginning of Season 6 Their are others but I can't recall them right now, anyway with all this hand the theory suggests that when Carmella mentions Meadow went to the doctor to change birth control that she discovered she was pregnant (otherwise why even mention it, why not just say Meadow was running late) and that her 'protection' had passed on to her unborn child. This all leads to Tony's luck finally running out and one of the many enemies he made over the years finally killing him.
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Jul 15, 2013 20:18
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I really don't think, in the grand scheme of things, it matters if he died or didn't. Regardless of what happened in the diner at that moment, the show makes it pretty clear that the only way out for these guys is death or jail. Given Tony's nature and all the time he's narrowly escaped I think he's definitely going to die. I don't know which interview said it, but over the course of 8 or so years, you've followed Tony, his family, and his crew. You hate him/love him/whatever. But he's not a good guy. They do bad stuff and Tony is definitely a sociopath. But the show is over. Our path of following him is over. Even if we keep following, it's going to be more of the same that we've seen, which I think was pretty nicely portrayed in the last shot. They're doing all their normal things as usual: dinner, talking about cases, Meadow and AJ doing whatever it is they do. There's some sketchy stuff going on but you don't exactly know what's going on. Regardless of all of that, we've seen our glimpse into Tony Soprano's life and even if we aren't shown the ending, we know what's going to happen. Tony's going to be killed, and like his conversation with Bobby, you probably won't even know it. I think they could have shown it but it takes away from having just an "open" ending. Oh he's shot and laying there and then what? You show him die? What's the last shot? I think the cut to black is a good ending to a show that's 8 years old. you don't know exactly what happened, but regardless of what they show or don't show, you know Tony's fate. Ultimately they were left with a "how do we end this?" Does he live, does he die? If Tony gets away...well that sucks. He's kind of a terrible human. The cut to black is a pretty good indicator of death, even if he didn't die right then where we were shown it.
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Jul 15, 2013 20:18
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Yea at the very least the final scene is constructed in such a way as to demonstrate to the audience what the rest of Tony's life will be like. He may live another 2 seconds or 2 years, but he will be watching every door and suspect every strange face he sees until the time comes. I still say though that the POV nature of the shots combined with the conversation Tony has with Bobby and the abrupt cut to black indicate he died right then and there.
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Jul 15, 2013 20:28
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marktheando posted:Ah right cool I thought from the way people were talking with such certainty I though David Chase had confirmed he died or something, so it's just the same old Sopranos ending chat. Richman777 posted:I really don't think, in the grand scheme of things, it matters if he died or didn't. Of course, we'd all still dig hearing his deathbed confession of his explicitly true intent with that nifty trick.
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Jul 15, 2013 20:30
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The members only jacket and Godfather reference is what really seals it for me, Tony dies.
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Jul 15, 2013 20:31
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I don't get people saying he is stuck now living a life of looking over his shoulder. He always has been. Just because he wasn't currently at war doesn't mean he wasn't always a target for any number of people and could la-di-da-di about in life. To be a mafia boss you have to always be vigilant and alert, nothing changed for him.
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Jul 15, 2013 20:39
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drunken officeparty posted:I don't get people saying he is stuck now living a life of looking over his shoulder. He always has been. Just because he wasn't currently at war doesn't mean he wasn't always a target for any number of people and could la-di-da-di about in life. To be a mafia boss you have to always be vigilant and alert, nothing changed for him. Yeah I really enjoyed the sense the ending gave of life just continuing. Our window into Tony's life has closed. They ramp up the tension and paranoia but that's just what Tonys life is like. He's had people killed while they were with their family so he knows the same could happen to him.
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Jul 15, 2013 20:43
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One interesting point I remember reading somewhere is someone speculating that Tony, AJ, and Carmella take communion in the final scene. It's based on how they ate the onion rings. In terms of who orders Tony to be killed, the main issue is there are so many people with motives. The best theory I read was that there is a definite connection with Patsy, either as the main guy or acting together with New York. His son is dating Meadow, and would know where Tony is going to be that night. There's also that weird scene with Patsy's wife and the china. By this point in the series Tony has alienated or killed pretty much anyone who would defend him.
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Jul 15, 2013 22:22
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drunken officeparty posted:I don't get people saying he is stuck now living a life of looking over his shoulder. He always has been. Just because he wasn't currently at war doesn't mean he wasn't always a target for any number of people and could la-di-da-di about in life. To be a mafia boss you have to always be vigilant and alert, nothing changed for him. I still say that my impression of him being tense and "looking over his shoulder" in that scene was pure projection on my part because I was expecting a big climactic ending, because when I watched it again he looks like he's just Tony Soprano doing his normal Tony Soprano thing - certainly not carefree but not paranoid or frightened either. Like Richman777, I really don't think it matters what happens - whether he dies exactly at that moment the camera cuts to black or five minutes later or a week from then or a year of if he lived another 40 years and died peacefully in his sleep. The point - for me at least - is that our journey alongside him has ended, we no longer get to go along for the ride and see what he's doing and what is going on in his life and the life of those around him. Like Melfi, we've been cut off, only at least Melfi was able to make that decision herself while it was forced on us. Chase mentioned something in an interview not so long ago that I'd always strongly felt and was pleased to see him say it - after however many years of us rooting for Tony and thrilling to see his enemies vanquished (like the FBI Agent who gets excited when he learns Phil was killed), it's hypocritical of us as the audience to expect Tony to now get his "comeuppance" purely because the show is coming to an end and we'd like him to pay for all the things we voyeuristically thrilled to see while the show was running. Maybe he does get it, maybe he doesn't, but WE don't get to see it, we'll only ever know about that brief portion of his life we saw as the show ran.
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Jul 15, 2013 23:26
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drunken officeparty posted:I don't get people saying he is stuck now living a life of looking over his shoulder. He always has been. Just because he wasn't currently at war doesn't mean he wasn't always a target for any number of people and could la-di-da-di about in life. To be a mafia boss you have to always be vigilant and alert, nothing changed for him. I don't know if it's Tony looking over his shoulder so much (like others have said, this is normal for him), but that we the audience have this sense that any moment could be his last. We're not along for the ride because his arc has ended; the journey we've followed him along is over. He fought a battle between his gangster nature and a desire somehow to be a better person (which I think is what kept him going to Melfi even after the immediate need to deal with the panic attacks). That battle is over, and the gangster won. The End.
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Jul 16, 2013 01:05
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DeadBonesBrook posted:My favourite theory (although not the one I personally go for, im in the 'He's Dead' crowd) is the 'Meadow Guardian Angel' theory. I don't buy it, but it's pretty neat. drunken officeparty posted:I don't get people saying he is stuck now living a life of looking over his shoulder. He always has been. That's kind of the point. The series ends much in the same way as season 1 did; with most of Tony's rivals dead or marginalized, but with indictments coming down. Life goes on same as before, for 5 minutes or 15 years.
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Jul 16, 2013 01:28
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This stupid horseshit is why I still don't like that ending. Out of 88 hours of television, everyone wants to talk about the last 15 seconds. The ending is purposefully ambiguous, anyone saying that there is one "answer" is wrong.
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Jul 16, 2013 02:18
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Ishamael posted:This stupid horseshit is why I still don't like that ending. Out of 88 hours of television, everyone wants to talk about the last 15 seconds.  is a scene so short term, obvious and nuance-free it could bookend a single episode of CSI: New York and not seem out of place on network television.
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Jul 16, 2013 02:31
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That, and Bobby's own death was pretty brutal. It took like a dozen shots to take him down.
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Jul 16, 2013 02:39
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If anyone is wondering wether or not the PS2 Soprano's game is worth the .98 cents, it totally is.
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Jul 16, 2013 02:48
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Ishamael posted:This stupid horseshit is why I still don't like that ending. Out of 88 hours of television, everyone wants to talk about the last 15 seconds. Chris getting into the movie business was one of my favorite plots. Ralph Cifaretto was a great character. Paulie is entertaining. I loathed Phil Leotardo(or whatever) but I don't recall if he's any worse than Tony. Hate AJ wish he sunk into the pool instead of Tony Soprano dying.
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Jul 16, 2013 02:51
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I love that everyone on this show is scum and yet just about every season after the first they come with an antagonist for you to hate more than these other people.
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Jul 16, 2013 02:57
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The funny thing was that Phil wasn't really any worse than any of the other villains on the show. I mean he was bad certainly, but I never found him as vile as Ralphie, Livia, or Richie. He just hated Tony far more than any of the previous antagonists, with the big exception of Livia.
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Jul 16, 2013 03:12
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Ishamael posted:The ending is purposefully ambiguous, anyone saying that there is one "answer" is wrong. I've yet to read any plausible ending other than Tony Soprano getting shot. As (I think) David Chase said, no matter what happens in that diner it's the end of the road. He's in a downwards spiral that there's no pulling out of, and even if the FBI or the hitmen don't get him, he'll drink/gamble/drug himself into oblivion all on his own.
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Jul 16, 2013 20:40
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Aertuun posted:I've yet to read any plausible ending other than Tony Soprano getting shot. As (I think) David Chase said, no matter what happens in that diner it's the end of the road. He's in a downwards spiral that there's no pulling out of, and even if the FBI or the hitmen don't get him, he'll drink/gamble/drug himself into oblivion all on his own. He's been in worse places than that before. He doesn't use drugs regularly and he only had a gambling problem in one (loving terrible) episode. So that leaves...drinking? He has never been shown to be a drunk, even though he drinks a lot. Clearly heart problems could get him, the way they got Gandolfini, but I don't see any reason that the diner represents any kind of downward spiral. Bobby is gone, Sil is injured, and Carlo may have flipped. This is all bad stuff, but there is no reason his situation can't improve. So, there's a plausible ending for you. The camera cut to black, the random Members-Only dude who we had never seen before didn't shoot him, he was just some guy. Tony goes on living. What happens next? Who knows? We were watching the story of a mobster in therapy and the therapy ended. Like I said, it's ambiguous - that is the point.
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Jul 16, 2013 21:45
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Ishamael posted:So, there's a plausible ending for you. The camera cut to black, the random Members-Only dude who we had never seen before didn't shoot him, he was just some guy. Tony goes on living. What happens next? Who knows? Oh, there are plenty of obscure potential endings, or shallow readings of the material. Maybe he lived happily ever after, or broke up with Carmela and married Agent Harris. Maybe Meadow came in and shot him! Some people walk out of Othello and say, "drat, that Iago. What a racist!" But they've completely missed what's going on in front of them. The entire final season is a downward spiral. It could almost be said David Chase is too systematic about it. The idea that the series ended simply because Tony stopped therapy is implausible, and has all sorts of holes if you apply thought to it. The event is related, of course, but only as part of the wider narrative that was established over the rest of the season. As another interesting observation, the amount of time the screen is blacked out in the final scene is the same amount of time that Sil experiences "slo-mo" during the Gerry assassination.
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Jul 16, 2013 22:32
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Yeah, you're right. It's a shallow reading of the source material with no additional thought, that's my thing. You've finally convinced me, with more of the exact same opinions people have been spouting for 6 years now! Nice work.
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Jul 17, 2013 00:31
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Ishamael posted:Yeah, you're right. It's a shallow reading of the source material with no additional thought, that's my thing. Glad to hear it! Does anyone know any good sources of information about the dream sequences in the show? I'm rewatching the first season and so far most of them are fairly straightforward, but I remember being completely puzzled by some of them as the show goes on (from about the third season on).
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Jul 17, 2013 00:49
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A lot of the dream sequences in the show deal with commonly accepted interpretations of symbols and images, although there are times when that gets subverted. They're also a means for Tony to piece together things that are lurking in his subconscious and/or have been going on around him, but that he hasn't been able to piece together fully. The best example of this is in Funhouse, where Tony finally confronts the fact that Pussy is working for the FBI as a result of food poisoning coming from eating fish at an Indian restaurant. It jumbles together (much like how dreams do) notions of poison/cancer, fishes, sleeping with the fishes, etc. Other dreams take typical 'dream moments' and dream symbolism and use them appropriately. The episode 'The Test Dream' is a common dream where people show up to a test or are giving a speech and are unprepared or naked. Loss of teeth is commonly interpreted as a loss of power, which is something that comes up in one of Melfi's dreams as well as one of Tony's dreams. It's generally just knowing your symbolism and knowing about dream analysis, as well as having an understanding of the characters (ie, who is dead, why/how they died, etc.) as they can give a hint on where things are going. In the Test Dream, for example, Tony rides around with his father, Mikey Palmice and Ralph, and then later rides around with Gigi Cestone and some other dead mobsters. This culminates in a scene with Tony B and everyone asking why Tony S didn't do anything. Implication being that Tony is probably going to have to kill Blundetto. Also, sometimes the stuff that appears in a dream is 'just because.' http://www.nj.com/sopranos/ledger/index.ssf?/sopranos/stories/tonydreams_six.html According to David Chase here, he only wanted the corrupt cop from season 1 back in the dream because he missed working with that actor. And Annette Benning being in the dream is only because he figured that Tony's subconscious would have her there.
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Jul 17, 2013 03:59
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I just watched the final scene and Tony didn't get shot, have a heart attack, fall of his chair breaking his neck, jump through a window, choke on an onion ring or demand orange juice with only 'some pulp' causing Carmella to flip out and bash him to death. The very last thing we see is Tony very much alive. It doesn't matter how many thousands of words you write trying to prove otherwise or what Chase says years after the fact. I didn't see Tony die and neither did anybody else.
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Jul 17, 2013 10:40
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Personally, I'm fine with the ending being deliberately ambiguous. I read the ending as Tony spending the rest of his life (regardless of whether it's measured in seconds or decades) "waiting for the other shoe to drop". He knows that the cops or the hitmen could come for him anytime, but in the meantime life goes on as usual. That's my take on it, but I don't think that it's the only acceptable answer or anything.
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Jul 17, 2013 11:31
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Seams posted:I just watched the final scene and Tony didn't get shot, have a heart attack, fall of his chair breaking his neck, jump through a window, choke on an onion ring or demand orange juice with only 'some pulp' causing Carmella to flip out and bash him to death. The very last thing we see is Tony very much alive. It doesn't matter how many thousands of words you write trying to prove otherwise or what Chase says years after the fact. I didn't see Tony die and neither did anybody else. And on top of that, Chase has been pretty clear that the ending is ambiguous. Here's what he said in 2007: quote:Chase also defended his decision to avoid a neat conclusion in bringing the series to a close. "Sopranos" fanatics tossed theories around and hotly debated supposed "clues" to the characters' fates embedded in the final episode, which aired June 10. And here he is again in 2012: quote:"People still ask me what happened," says series creator David Chase, who teamed with Gandolfini again on the new film Not Fade Away. "They don't ask me if Tony is alive or dead. But I know that's where it's going. My answer is, if I was going to tell you that I would have told you." But people still insist that there's only one true reading of the ending.
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Jul 17, 2013 13:10
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Perdido posted:
 Aaaaaaaaaaand I only just got that lines meaning. Holy poo poo.
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Jul 17, 2013 13:25
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