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Photos are fun. I've got to take a photo of Cohen's handstand, 'cause I think it's going to be printed on a trailer for my performance group. Fun! We'll probably only put a handful of our dogs on there, so I'm psyched to get to stick one of mine on there. (I'm the one designing it, plus I'm the one with a dog who does a handstand, so... the deck was stacked in my favour.) Speaking of handstands, here's a cute one. Not her best, but cute. 
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Jul 2, 2013 19:01
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I have an interesting training opportunity this weekend. I'm looking after a friend's foster dog. She's estimated to be about 4 years old, and nothing is known about her past other than she's had at least one litter. She also doesn't even know how to sit. My friend has tried luring it (treat over head) as well as gently pushing for it (pushing on Betty's lower back). Neither worked. I'd really love to be able to hand her back and say hi, the dog can now sit. I don't think I'll be able to capture it (she's been here 4 hours and hasn't done it once) but I assume there's some sort of way I can do it. Maybe luring against a wall? (Usually when luring the dog just scoots backwards to watch the treat.) Since she's a foster dog, if she could learn the basic stuff that might get some more interest for her too. I guess I could shape a sit, but since she's never been introduced to a clicker (that I know), shaping a sit could be a little too difficult. I dunno. Any ideas?
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Jul 4, 2013 23:18
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Fraction posted:I guess I could shape a sit, but since she's never been introduced to a clicker (that I know), shaping a sit could be a little too difficult. I dunno. Any ideas?
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Jul 5, 2013 08:51
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Fraction posted:Maybe luring against a wall? Rixatrix posted:Another thing that might work is luring with the dog's back against a corner. I was going to suggest this, but if you're feeling like working on more than just sit, or giving a good base to work off of, the clicker would be the best route, I think, for the future. If she's having that hard of a time with the lure just for a sit, sounds like shaping would be the way to go. Also, hi everyone, I'm going to attempt to work my way back and finally read this drat thread! :iamafag: Edit: Found this on the previous page and wanted to weigh in: cheese eats mouse posted:Eh dogs can be moody shits. :p First off, I'd stick with the "easier" way you had the crate, is it just the tray out? Or did you do something else to make him more receptive to it? Either way, start where he's most comfortable so he's less anxious about the training. Once he's REALLY good about going on it that way, then slowly ease it more into his less comfortable zones. Secondly, how exactly are you working on training? If you're tossing treats on to the pan, that's a good start. After he gets the idea that treats appear there, you might want to start shaping the behavior of him choosing on his own to investigate the crate pan. That way you're not just pushing him farther than he feels comfortable because he really wants that treat. After all, you want his crate to be a safe, comfy place for him. By shaping the behavior, you're allowing him to decide his level of security, and also showing him it's even LESS scary because TREATS! If you're working on actually giving a command to have him lay on the bed, you might want to take a step back and work on shaping. Telling him to lay on the tray is just as much "forcing" him in to it as tossing the treats might be. I'd wait until he's really eagerly going over to the pan for treats over and over to start giving commands to lay down. The key is to make sure he's EXCITED about the crate and training around it, if he seems hesitant/scared, then it's time to move a step back. Obviously, this all takes a decent amount of time. You're not going to have him exuberant over his crate in one day. But the more you work on it like this, the better off he'll be for it in the long run. 
WolfensteinBag fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Jul 5, 2013 |
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Jul 5, 2013 13:56
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While we're on the subject of clickers, any links for a decent, sturdy one for a key ring? The ones I bought a year ago had the thinnest plastic on the key ring part and broke on first drop.
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Jul 5, 2013 19:06
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So we had our first session with the reactivity trainer. It went really well. She's actually the same lady that taught Radar obedience. She said mostly the same things you guys said but was very reassuring that it was clearly fear based and with work she'll come out of it. We've been working on capturing her bark on command and combining a quiet command with it. Radar has picked up on it and will now sometimes just bark once and then look back at me. I'm just glad that it's fixable and I'm not going to have to hide my puppy forever. You guys rock!
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Jul 5, 2013 19:40
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Eegah posted:While we're on the subject of clickers, any links for a decent, sturdy one for a key ring? The ones I bought a year ago had the thinnest plastic on the key ring part and broke on first drop. I love the Karen Pryor i-Clicks so much, I don't think I could go back to box clickers, but the i-Clicks definitely do not have a sturdy attachment for keys or anything. But you could try a StarMark clicker. It was one of the first clickers I bought and it's still in one piece (however, that may be because I pretty much never use it since moving on to the i-Clicks).
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Jul 5, 2013 20:36
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Yeah the iClicker is what I have so I can attest. Might give StarMark a try, thanks.
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Jul 5, 2013 20:57
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I have a 4-month old Shar-Pei/Boxer puppy that I want to start clicker training. Is 4 months too young? I've just started trying to "charge" the clicker, but I think so far all I'm doing is associating the tasty treats with "WTF IS THAT NOISE gently caress THAT NOISE" She seems scared of the clicker and I'm not sure how to overcome it.
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Jul 5, 2013 22:54
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What kind of clicker do you have? If it's a box clicker you can put a piece of sticky tac on the metal part and it will dull the noise. If it's some other kind of clicker you can wrap it in a sock or something to muffle it. Some people have even clicked a ballpoint pen. But no, four months old is definitely not too young.
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Jul 5, 2013 23:15
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I'm going to ramble a little here, just to get some things out. I read the original post of the thread, but admittedly have not gone through 110 pages. Advice would be nice, if anyone has any. So, my mother has a seven-year-old Dachshund who has never been trained. A few months back I had to move back in with my mother (breakup blahblah) with a cat. The dog, whose name is Petey, has been nothing but aggressive toward the cat, who can't leave the bedroom unless the dog is shut outside. I wish this was the only problem. Petey has never been socialized with anything. He is okay with my mother's other Dachshund, but still tends to be aggressive towards him. He has had two reports filed against him with the town due to biting--one more and he will, by law, have to be euthanized. He does not know basic commands, anything. Generally, the ONLY person who he will listen to is me, for reasons none of us have been able to determine. And tonight he tried to bite me, much to the shock of my mother. I can tell she's really upset by this, and really starting to rethink how she raised Petey--her other dog picked up good behavior/commands very easily from the dog we had before, and I think she expected Petey to do the same, which never happened. And since I'm living with this dog, my ma is upset and has absolutely no money for a trainer, and I have some experience training dogs (mostly my friends' puppies, and the dog I had growing up, plus a couple cats some stupid cat tricks), I want to start actively training Petey, hopefully as a way to at least get a handle on his aggression problems. I guess I'm just a bit at a loss of where to begin, because I've only ever trained puppies. I figure basic commands first, and then worry about everything else when I can get him to consistently listen to me/my mother/anyone who walks in the door? Does this make sense? I really want to eventually be able to socialize him enough that he and the cat and coexist without him freaking out, but I figured anything of that sort would be putting the cart before the horse, and my cat is happy living in the bedroom with designated "explore the house" times (also I won't be living here forever), so it's less of a concern.
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Jul 7, 2013 03:11
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hyenabones posted:
What's the context of his aggression? (E.g. fear, resource guarding, etc.) It really sounds like you're in over your head and are likely to get bitten. The usual advice would be a behaviorist, but if that's out of reach you don't have a lot of options.
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Jul 7, 2013 05:38
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WolfensteinBag posted:First off, I'd stick with the "easier" way you had the crate, is it just the tray out? Or did you do something else to make him more receptive to it? Either way, start where he's most comfortable so he's less anxious about the training. Once he's REALLY good about going on it that way, then slowly ease it more into his less comfortable zones. I'm not at the command part at all. I'm thinking of switching to a soft crate that doesn't make as much sudden weird noises. I'm using a standard wire crate that's pretty noisy. He isn't against being in a crate because our first session of crate games he was fine with going in, but I think all the weird sounds it makes just makes him completely uncomfortable. I just lose tons of progress if his tags hit the wire or if the pan moves under his feet. He's very reactive to quick bangs, which is another thing I'm working on. I've really just been tossing treats in at different intervals and watching his body language. I'll make good progress but then some sound startles him and it's back to the entrance. I can get his head in, but any more in is a REALLY big step for him even with the tray out. So It's not the tray, it's the whole crate so I think something softer and quieter will help me make better progress.
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Jul 7, 2013 21:13
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I'd like to start clicker-training, but is there anything special I need to do since I have two dogs? I'm worried that I'll use the clicker for one, but have the other come up to a get a treat and not understand why it wasn't getting one.
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Jul 8, 2013 04:41
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Safe and Secure! posted:I'd like to start clicker-training, but is there anything special I need to do since I have two dogs? I'm worried that I'll use the clicker for one, but have the other come up to a get a treat and not understand why it wasn't getting one. One time I saw a clicker at the pet store that had two buttons with different sounds for this specific purpose. I did a quick google search and cannot find it. I will keep searching but hopefully someone else knows specifically what they are and can help me out? Cheap option: train one dog with a clicker, the other with a marker word.
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Jul 8, 2013 05:50
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I have two clickers that make different clicks. One clicker per dog. They caught on pretty well Soooo I haven't trained Boo to sit. Or do anything! She has barely eaten whilst being here, and I didn't want to upset her stomach by having her eat a bunch of cheese/ham/etc in pursuit of training. I am going to suggest luring against a wall or clicker training to her fosterer though!
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Jul 8, 2013 08:10
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Safe and Secure! posted:I'd like to start clicker-training, but is there anything special I need to do since I have two dogs? I'm worried that I'll use the clicker for one, but have the other come up to a get a treat and not understand why it wasn't getting one. I went to a class where some people had clickers, and the instructor passed out other clickers for those who didn't bring one. A lot of them sounded pretty much the same, but if you get the dog focused, he knows which clicker is "his." (Or hers, don't wanna be sexist here.) Some dogs didn't get the same clicker each week--also no problem, since the first thing was always a focus exercise and that pretty well served to load the clicker for the duration of the class. So, two dogs, you focus on one dog at a time.
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Jul 13, 2013 22:00
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I think Karen Pryor covered that in Reaching the Animal Mind, it apparently does seem like when a dog's focused on and working with you, it knows when a click belongs to it.
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Jul 14, 2013 02:32
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Fat Dio posted:I think Karen Pryor covered that in Reaching the Animal Mind, it apparently does seem like when a dog's focused on and working with you, it knows when a click belongs to it. Major thinks every click anywhere near him is for him and will try to wander off to get treats from someone if they click near him, even if he is focused on me and working well. He thinks they're treating him for me for reasons he doesn't understand but is ok with. I just use a marker word in group training situations now to avoid any confusion.
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Jul 14, 2013 02:49
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There is so much wrong with this I lost count half way through: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfArvh9bzY4 She of course had a huge backlash and has since disabled comments/ratings/embedding, plus hidden the video so only those with the link can see it. The kicker is that's a heartworm positive dog.
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Jul 15, 2013 22:23
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Skizzles posted:There is so much wrong with this I lost count half way through: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfArvh9bzY4 It's 22 minutes long, could you give us a summary of what she does wrong?
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Jul 16, 2013 00:08
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I only watched the first 10~ minutes, honestly. She's basically trying to teach a dog to... be okay with loud noises? Simply not react to loud noises? She's not entirely clear. She takes this pit on a slip lead, has someone off camera with a piece of aluminum siding and a shotgun, and has this guy randomly bang on the siding or fire the shotgun. When the dog reacts by trying to run away or hide behind her, she drags it on the slip lead to force it to sit-stay beside her. She isn't praising the dog at all and goes on about how praising it will reward its fear. So she's setting the dog up to fail and forcing it into a terrifying situation while it's practically choking itself trying to get away on the slip lead. She also keeps talking about the dog being "disrespectful" by putting its paws on her (trying to escape from the noises) or laying down when she didn't ask it to lay down.
Skizzles fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Jul 16, 2013 |
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Jul 16, 2013 03:28
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I've read the OP a few times and looked into a bunch of resources but I'm still a bit stumped with my newly adopted dog. I hope this isn't some obvious thing I've overlooked. She's a 5 year old miniature pinscher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_Pinscher), pretty well raised and has no health or behavior issues to talk about. She responds amazingly to clicker training, but only when she's paying attention. Whenever we go outside however, or she sees a cat outside, it's like she forgets the entire world and just turns on some laser focus on that single thing that piques her interest. I can't even use the clicker outside; even her favorite treats can't grab her attention there. Not that she's completely out of control every time we go outside, but I'd really appreciate some tips on teaching my dog to pay attention when treats and clickers don't even register for her. Is it just about teaching her to calm herself down?
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Jul 16, 2013 09:53
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Have you tried really high value treats like chicken, hot dogs or cheese? Have you tried using toys - balls or tugs? Some dogs are also more interested in the outside world as a reward than food or toys. If she's more into sniffing or approaching things, you could restrict her access to them until she gives you a behaviour you want (eg cue sit, give her no leash slack to move or sniff, and wait her the hell out, approach a thing when she finally does sit).
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Jul 16, 2013 11:08
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Zedlic posted:I've read the OP a few times and looked into a bunch of resources but I'm still a bit stumped with my newly adopted dog. I hope this isn't some obvious thing I've overlooked. You might need to take baby steps when it comes to training outside. Obviously, you still need to go on walks and all that, but take some skills that your dog is REALLY great at in the house, like "Sit" maybe, and transition to working on obedience outside on a leash. I'm guessing the leash itself is exciting enough, so you can start by just clipping the leash on, and still working in the house, so she doesn't immediately go into excited "OMG WALK!" mode when she sees it. Once she's rock solid doing obedience in the house with the leash on, then start going outside in a quiet area like a backyard, with as few distractions as possible. Give her a chance to potty first so THAT isn't distracting her, and start working on the simple stuff. It's all baby steps. Every time she starts getting really rock solid working with one set of distractions, move it up slightly to the next thing. This is obviously something that's going to take time. Also, Fraction posted:Some dogs are also more interested in the outside world as a reward than food or toys. If she's more into sniffing or approaching things, you could restrict her access to them until she gives you a behaviour you want (eg cue sit, give her no leash slack to move or sniff, and wait her the hell out, approach a thing when she finally does sit). This! Even with lots of distraction training, for some dogs the walk itself is a much greater motivator than anything else you could offer. My husky is INSANE for treats, but get him on a walk, and that is ALL he cares about. He's a husky, after all, he's bred to have a one track mind for pulling forward at a good pace down a path. I wouldn't necessarily start off using it for a "Sit", though. I'd start off smaller, with just waiting for slack on the leash, or looking back at you before heading forward again. This helps break the dog out of that "WALK WALK WALK WALK FORWARD FORWARD FORWARD FORWARD" sort of mindset and gets her looking to you for instruction. It's almost in the same line as teaching a "Watch" or "Look" command to a dog you want to learn how to focus. If you can snap her out of that zone, she'll be more receptive to listening and training.
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Jul 16, 2013 11:58
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A lot of people get good obedience at home in the kitchen then immediately try to transpose it to the outside world, not realizing that the difficulty in the tasks that you're asking of your dog just went from a level 2-3 to a level 9-10. List areas around your home and categorize them by distraction/difficulty level. For instance, Bathroom = 1 Kitchen & living room = 2 Inside front door = 4 Outside front door = 6 Front walkway = 7 Sidewalk in front of house = 8 Park = 10 Then start working at a level where your dog can be successful. As you create a history of success you're laying the groundwork for your dog being able to cope at greater difficulties. Also consider offering access to the environment as reinforcement. Wait for eye contact (assuming you've taught it) before going to smell a fire hydrant or saying hello to a favourite person. If he's more interested in sniffing than food, try to use that to your advantage too. Make yourself the gateway through which your dog can access good things, not as someone who's trying to keep them from him. And if the environment simply gets too overwhelming for him, don't keep trying and failing. Either end the session and go home, or lay off the training until you can get into a better area.
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Jul 16, 2013 12:22
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This is excellent advice, thanks. I've tried the tastiest and smelliest of treats, including dried fish which she goes absolutely crazy for, but the outside world is still much more interesting to her. I hadn't thought about using that as a treat replacement though, which is a great idea.
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Jul 16, 2013 12:46
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On top of all the Premack advice (using what she wants to do as a reward), name the behavior that she wants to do and sometimes send her out to do it with no strings attatched. When she calms down and reengages with you, send her out to do it a couple more times. My trainer had some success getting her JRT off the rat smells out in the corner of the barn by doing it until it got boring and he'd rather come back and work.
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Jul 16, 2013 14:37
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Thanks. We had great results on the walk we just finished, where I tried to out-stubborn her by calmly stopping whenever she started pulling on the leash. Initially I wanted to have her look back at me, but apparently she is nowhere near ready for eye contact outside, even though she has no problem with it inside. She was really intent on not looking me in the eye at any point, so I settled for a sit. First stop took around 5-6 minutes probably, and the next few took a while but she was quick to get that once she pulled the leash, I would stop and not continue until she sat down. Small victories.
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Jul 16, 2013 17:05
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Great. Don't expect any huge turnarounds overnight. You have a long history of an undesirable, self reinforcing behaviour, so you're not going to change it overnight. Small victories are very worth celebrating. Consider keeping a log so you can track your progress. It'll give you something to look back on in a month's time (perhaps after having a bad day) once your memory starts to fade to objectively see your progress. It sounds like your homework is to work on eye contact. Decide what you want the behaviour to look like. Do you want it to be cued? Implicit? (Personally I like implicit, but I have trained both.) You say she can offer it inside, but not out. So work on it a bit inside until you're getting 80-90% success, then move up in difficulty by one rung (move from the kitchen to the front door, maybe) and then work on it there for a few minutes 3-5 times per day. Keep sessions short and engaging. Once you get success like that, you're ready to move to something more challenging again. Something to keep in mind. When you're outside and you're stopping the walk to get your dog's attention, that is a form of punishment. It is a perfectly fine method to work on some control outside on walks. However, punishment should really only be used when the dog knows what you'd rather she do instead. Like, really knows. Right now, she doesn't, as evidenced by her inability to do so. That's why we really encourage you to work in areas where your dog can be successful (ie, indoors) and increase difficulty gradually. It's not fair to tell the dog they're wrong when they're not sure how to be right. You have to show them, and you have to do it when they're capable of learning.
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Jul 16, 2013 17:24
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My goldens are being assholes when we are at water. I want them to bring me the drat ball and drop it at my feet (they do this when we aren't at water) so I can throw it again, they want to lay in the water and chomp at the ball. Bring me the loving ball you little shits! Ideally I'd like to train them to hold the ball until I tell them to drop it, but I've never been successful in teaching them that. Help 
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Jul 16, 2013 18:16
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Take multiple balls with you or manage them so they can't self reinforce (eg dogs on a long line). For hold, what worked for me was praising like crazy whilst my dog held the item. Praise stopped if she dropped it. She gets a food reward if she holds the item until I say okay.
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Jul 16, 2013 18:20
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a life less posted:Great. Don't expect any huge turnarounds overnight. You have a long history of an undesirable, self reinforcing behaviour, so you're not going to change it overnight. Small victories are very worth celebrating. Consider keeping a log so you can track your progress. It'll give you something to look back on in a month's time (perhaps after having a bad day) once your memory starts to fade to objectively see your progress. Thanks for good advice. Once I realized how much she averted from looking into my eyes I stopped trying to go for that since it's pretty unfair as you say. Sitting was much easier, although she never did it in response to my (softly spoken) command but rather 10-30 seconds after it. I'll definitely keep in mind to stay fair with her during training.
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Jul 16, 2013 18:39
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A question for all the other trainers. How do you handle the sessions coming to an end when it's a client you've really bonded with (both the owner and dog)? I have lately had session packages end with a handful of clients that I've just completely loved working with - the kind that go above and beyond on homework, ask smart questions, and have dogs that are just a joy to train. A couple of times I've found myself choking up when it's time to give the final sit-wait at the door and slip out. How unprofessional am I being? Am I just PMSing real hardcore?
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Jul 16, 2013 23:11
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I rarely work one on one with clients (mostly group classes) so I don't get the same opportunity to bond. For the real special clients I extra-suggest that they move on to the next level of obedience/agility/whatever and I might suggest that they join our performance group so I have an opportunity to stay in touch. You might be kind of PMSy, but who knows!
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Jul 17, 2013 04:00
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I'd say its natural to be upset at the end of the time working together. If you've invested significant time and energy working with a person and dog, you're bound to get attached to them. It'll probably get easier the more it happens. Just try not to cry!
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Jul 17, 2013 08:30
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Sounds like you're just really proud of your clients and their dogs. In a field where a lot of people are just looking for a quick fix, it's really gratifying to find people who "get it" and really, truly want to learn. Like ALL said, I'd really push further classes and sports/activities on those people, I'm sure they'd really enjoy it.
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Jul 17, 2013 12:01
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Aaaaand then there are the clients who forget to tell you they won't be home and you drive 23 miles to their house and no one's there and they aren't answering their phone. It all balances out in the end.
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Jul 17, 2013 22:10
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Have you ever had a really bad outcome? I think that may change some of the level of emotion in the happy goodbyes. We had a handler die in one of the classes I assist with, and everything else kind of pales in comparison.
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Jul 17, 2013 23:34
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Not really sure where to put this it might be a more advanced question for a full thread. My oldest dog Condie has been an only dog for most of her life and she has some signs of only dog syndrome. She HATES sharing toys and will start fights with any dog that plays with her toys. Problem is she sees ANY toy brought into the house as hers and it's not fair of me to expect a dog to differentiate between yours and mine (can dogs dog this? I'm not really sure?) I'm really not sure where to start training for this. Food is a non-starter because that can starts fights as well and playing turns into treat time. I'd love for my old girl to play with my new girl or at least have them put up with each other.
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Jul 17, 2013 23:41
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