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Beamed posted:While I agree with the sentiment of this post, it's somewhat misleading to claim it was just advanced as Eurasia, especially without explaining what you mean by advanced. Politically? That is unquestionable. Economically? Probably, yes - enormous intertwined urbanization, trade routes, etc. existed, but there was little trading by sea - Mesoamerica and South America were almost entirely separated, with little to no contact, whereas all of Eurasia was interconnected. Technologically? Not even close - unfortunately, the New World lacked things including the wheel, a lot of machinery, and of course, sailing vessels. E: Not that this is an argument that the current level of gameplay really lives up to the possibilities history presents. Just because some parts of America had been rocked by climate change (much like the Norse in Greenland) doesn't mean that the rest should be ignored as much as it appears they have been. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Jul 20, 2013 |
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Jul 20, 2013 19:09
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ExtraNoise posted:This is exactly how I play. I stick generally on levels 2-3 depending on what's happening. Any chance for some Canadian ones? Like http://www.nationalpost.com/index.html for Conservatives, http://www.cbc.ca/news/ for general, http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/ for Liberals, http://www.torontosun.com/ for Reactionaries.
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Jul 20, 2013 19:10
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A Buttery Pastry posted:They just need to make the political map look like Strannik's HandDrawn Map, simple as that. Best mod. Rip.
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Jul 20, 2013 19:14
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I suppose the germane question for EUIV is: Could a different path in the decades before European contact have any realistic chance of leading to a different fate for Native American states? I know we can game it and conquer the world with Iroqious and so forth, and I'd certainly love to see a much more fleshed out New World, but I'm not sure decisions made in 1453 would be enough to make a lot of changes, so I can forgive Paradox on this front. That said the rest of the non-European Old World will hopefully get much more attention this time around because there's no excuse for anything in Afro-Eurasia being treated in such a manner.
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Jul 20, 2013 19:21
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I don't know why they don't at least try to divide Mesoamerica into the actual polities that existed at the time. The Maya could be split into a good four or five states at least, the Zapotec were not a centralized empire to rival the Aztecs, many of the starting regions under Aztec control could be independent as allies or vassals. It would make Mesoamerica actually somewhat interesting. If I remember right Death and Taxes did a decent job at this, dunno why it takes a mod to model one of the most important regions in the world.
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Jul 20, 2013 19:38
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a bad enough dude posted:I don't know why they don't at least try to divide Mesoamerica into the actual polities that existed at the time. The Maya could be split into a good four or five states at least, the Zapotec were not a centralized empire to rival the Aztecs, many of the starting regions under Aztec control could be independent as allies or vassals. It would make Mesoamerica actually somewhat interesting. Honestly I don't care. The Americas are there to be interesting from the perspective of people trying to colonise them, not interesting to play in their own right.
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Jul 20, 2013 19:42
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a bad enough dude posted:If I remember right Death and Taxes did a decent job at this, dunno why it takes a mod to model one of the most important regions in the world. The game is called EUROPA Universalis, not Fun History Universalis. 
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Jul 20, 2013 19:46
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Mister Adequate posted:I suppose the germane question for EUIV is: Could a different path in the decades before European contact have any realistic chance of leading to a different fate for Native American states? I know we can game it and conquer the world with Iroqious and so forth, and I'd certainly love to see a much more fleshed out New World, but I'm not sure decisions made in 1453 would be enough to make a lot of changes, so I can forgive Paradox on this front. That said the rest of the non-European Old World will hopefully get much more attention this time around because there's no excuse for anything in Afro-Eurasia being treated in such a manner. This is why I'm going to try and put together a Sunset Renaissance 1444 start date scenario as soon as possible for EUIV, where history goes as normal until the Sunset Invasion of the 1350s. (Disclaimer: I suck at modding.)
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Jul 20, 2013 19:49
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Alchenar posted:Honestly I don't care. The Americas are there to be interesting from the perspective of people trying to colonise them, not interesting to play in their own right. That's great man, but listen: Some people actually enjoy playing something besides England or France. Some of us, I know it's hard to believe, enjoy the challenge of overcoming great odds as a struggling smaller nation amidst giants.
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Jul 20, 2013 19:49
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Alchenar posted:Honestly I don't care. The Americas are there to be interesting from the perspective of people trying to colonise them, not interesting to play in their own right. That's a shame, considering the game is set during an interesting resurgence (and second collapse) of the Maya in the Yucatan and the rise and height of the Aztecs. Making an entire region of the game interesting for weirdos like me who actually care about history outside of western Europe by adding an event or two and dividing boring blobs doesn't seem like too much.
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Jul 20, 2013 19:51
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Even though I'm really looking forward to EU4 it's kind of depressing how much stuff appears to be totally unchanged from EU3 where it would have been easy to make improvements, especially when CK2 is actually more accurate in some places (such as religion). I guess it's too much to expect them to improve things that most people aren't going to care about since they only play England, France or Spain.
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Jul 20, 2013 19:59
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Mister Adequate posted:I suppose the germane question for EUIV is: Could a different path in the decades before European contact have any realistic chance of leading to a different fate for Native American states? I know we can game it and conquer the world with Iroqious and so forth, and I'd certainly love to see a much more fleshed out New World, but I'm not sure decisions made in 1453 would be enough to make a lot of changes, so I can forgive Paradox on this front. That said the rest of the non-European Old World will hopefully get much more attention this time around because there's no excuse for anything in Afro-Eurasia being treated in such a manner.
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Jul 20, 2013 20:06
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Dibujante posted:It's fairly unlikely. While there are certainly things that individual people could have done differently, there were also some much larger trends that couldn't really be bucked. Earth entered a small ice age, according to varying sources, either right before the EU3 time period or somewhere early in the EU3 time period that substantially disrupted Native American societies. Additionally, European contact brought diseases with extremely high mortality rates that further disrupted local societies. When Europeans arrived to try to conquer and colonize the Americas, they weren't fighting Native American societies at their peak; they were fighting Native American societies that had just experienced huge (negative) upheavals. In North and Central American societies I can agree with this, but I don't necessarily think this is accurate for South American societies like the Inca, which were affected much less by the Little Ice Age than more northern societies. I feel like the Inca Empire could have survived European contact if it wasn't for Atahualpa meeting the Spanish with only a small retinue of body guards; it certainly is possible that if he had taken a larger body guard then the Inca Empire could have survived contact.
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Jul 20, 2013 20:15
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Sampatrick posted:In North and Central American societies I can agree with this, but I don't necessarily think this is accurate for South American societies like the Inca, which were affected much less by the Little Ice Age than more northern societies. I feel like the Inca Empire could have survived European contact if it wasn't for Atahualpa meeting the Spanish with only a small retinue of body guards; it certainly is possible that if he had taken a larger body guard then the Inca Empire could have survived contact. Yeah. The Incan empire is the greatest exception to this rule. The Spanish showed up during a time when the empire was under a great deal of internal distress, but it's easy to imagine that that might play out differently. It's harder to imagine that the little ice age wouldn't happen. Also, they had potatoes. When will EU4 model potatoes? They're amazing.
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Jul 20, 2013 20:17
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Yeah, it looks like vanilla EU4's Americas are going to be pretty much as disappointing as EU3's. But, if EU4 ends up getting the same treatment as CK2 in regards to DLCs, we could very well see some improvement there. Look at how much love CK2 has gotten in a variety of different areas and only in the span of about a year.
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Jul 20, 2013 20:24
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Alchenar posted:Honestly I don't care. The Americas are there to be interesting from the perspective of people trying to colonise them, not interesting to play in their own right. Guess what: representing Mesoamerica as something more than two or three big blobs makes it more interesting from the perspective of the people trying to colonise them. The colonial side of the EU is the most boring thing in the world at the moment, and adding some genuine strategic depth to the region would go a long way towards ameliorating that. This is why the "it's about Europe  " argument is complete horseshit, at the conceptual level: in a game about Europe encountering the rest of the world, reducing the rest of the world to a feeble caricature of itself reduces the European experience to a feeble caricature of itself.
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Jul 20, 2013 20:37
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Alchenar posted:Honestly I don't care. The Americas are there to be interesting from the perspective of people trying to colonise them, not interesting to play in their own right.
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Jul 20, 2013 20:39
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Alchenar posted:Honestly I don't care. The Americas are there to be interesting from the perspective of people trying to colonise them, not interesting to play in their own right. It fails pretty hard on that front as well. Colonizing wasn't the most fun thing to do in EU3 either. Its more of a slog then anything, considering there really isn't a threat.
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Jul 20, 2013 20:44
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Still doesn't make sense, because the Swedish nobility would probably be more French than Swedish. Put them in Paris, and they would be 100% French within the year. You're right. French culture was enormously prestigious in this period of time, and there is no way that the Swedish nobility wouldn't have started assimilating almost immediately - particularly if they had settled in Paris, which was the cultural center of Europe. In fact, much of the European aristocracy used French on a daily basis, even in countries that were nowhere near France.
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Jul 20, 2013 20:54
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I wonder if there's any "survive Europe" achievement for those brave enough to try playing on ironman. I can already hear the sound of shattered dreams of a million nerds.
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Jul 20, 2013 20:59
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Phlegmish posted:You're right. French culture was enormously prestigious in this period of time, and there is no way that the Swedish nobility wouldn't have started assimilating almost immediately - particularly if they had settled in Paris, which was the cultural center of Europe. In fact, much of the European aristocracy used French on a daily basis, even in countries that were nowhere near France. Was French really set to become Europe's most prestigious culture as of 1444? I always thought of the primacy of French culture coming just a bit later, during the game's time span, but not before, so historical developments could very well change the way people looked at French culture.
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Jul 20, 2013 21:02
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a bad enough dude posted:I don't know why they don't at least try to divide Mesoamerica into the actual polities that existed at the time. The Maya could be split into a good four or five states at least, the Zapotec were not a centralized empire to rival the Aztecs, many of the starting regions under Aztec control could be independent as allies or vassals. It would make Mesoamerica actually somewhat interesting.
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Jul 20, 2013 21:20
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Pakled posted:Was French really set to become Europe's most prestigious culture as of 1444? I always thought of the primacy of French culture coming just a bit later, during the game's time span, but not before, so historical developments could very well change the way people looked at French culture. It's true that the height of French cultural dominance was in the eighteenth century, but that was the culmination of a gradual process that had been going on since the time of Charlemagne. For one thing, people tend to underestimate just how populous France was compared to the other European nations. If it had grown at the same rate as England since the sixteenth century, it would have had a population of more than 150 million today. Of course, as you've said, maybe history followed a different course in that particular game.
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Jul 20, 2013 21:28
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Pakled posted:Was French really set to become Europe's most prestigious culture as of 1444? I always thought of the primacy of French culture coming just a bit later, during the game's time span, but not before, so historical developments could very well change the way people looked at French culture. *They're in pretty similar situations at the game's start really, France just got its poo poo together over the next 5 decades or so. **For some time at least. I don't know if continued French instability might lead a new generation to attempt a conquest of France, instead of just deciding to focus on overseas adventures. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Jul 20, 2013 |
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Jul 20, 2013 21:33
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I wrote a giant post in the last thread about the New World and I guess it bears repeating since its come up again.quote:When it comes to the New World, unmodded EU3 has a bunch of pathetic pagan Native Americans losing battles despite 20x numerical advantage to tiny European armies which are then converted to 100% Catholic white European provinces after a few years of expense. In other provinces, the native population is either slaughtered wholesale in one battle or defended against for a short period of time until the entire population becomes 100% Catholic white European. From what I've seen of the trade routes, administrative power and what I've heard about the coalition mechanic, I could see a lot of these mechanics repurposed to improve New World gameplay.
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Jul 20, 2013 21:35
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Alchenar posted:Honestly I don't care. The Americas are there to be interesting from the perspective of people trying to colonise them, not interesting to play in their own right. I'm glad you think my people are just a road block for players to stomp over.  I hate how colonization worked in EUIII. You declare war on the Aztecs, capture a few areas and *boom*, you own the entire area now. There has to be a better way for that work.
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Jul 20, 2013 21:47
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A look at Japan's Shogunate and Ming's faction system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0VcKytUkRg
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Jul 20, 2013 22:01
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Chief Savage Man posted:I wrote a giant post in the last thread about the New World and I guess it bears repeating since its come up again. Would it be better if the landing of a Spanish unit in Mesoamerica triggered the "spawn oppressed minorities" all over the continent?
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Jul 20, 2013 22:07
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(two posts up)^^Ming is still looking kind of meh, but at least Japan's been improved.^^ Even if the New World hasn't been changed much, probably because it's just a low-priority area to the devs, I'm feeling very hopeful that if/when they release a DLC improving the area, they'll be able to put a lot of thought into how to make it more fun to play a native nation. I think the new DLC structure is really going to help a lot in improving areas that wouldn't get a lot of attention in the big expansions, like Africa, the Americas, and India.
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Jul 20, 2013 22:08
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Continuing with interface design for the Modern Age Mod: Well... it's a start.
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Jul 20, 2013 23:47
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And one more, this time some Indian state and the Timurids. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkgmg02upc0
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Jul 20, 2013 23:56
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JGBeagle posted:I'm glad you think my people are just a road block for players to stomp over. What I always found completely ridiculous was how you'd assimilate native cultures the instant you converted them (though be fair, this is a problem with all Pagans, New World and African alike). Does the light of Jesus cause the entire native population to decide "Welp, we're Spanish now,", or is it just a (really bad) way of simulating the devastating effect Old Word diseases had? If Paradox is going to going with the CK2 model for EU4, I guess there's always at least hope for a DLC that makes playing New World nations worthwhile.
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Jul 21, 2013 00:01
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I have this feeling that it would be incredibly sad and devastating to play as a New World nation in EU4, once the Europeans arrive. Seeing your glorious empire rapidly unravel and depopulate thanks to massive plagues over a few decades would not be very fun.ExtraNoise posted:Continuing with interface design for the Modern Age Mod: I like that interface, especially that cool glowy blue black map. It looks a lot better than the EvW interface, in my opinion, and really makes me pine even more for a true grand-strategy Cold War/Post-Cold War game. DrSunshine fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 00:14
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ExtraNoise posted:Continuing with interface design for the Modern Age Mod: Well, the tabs at the top look pretty hideous, but I kinda like them, they look like the little colour coded tabs in a binder, I assume that's what you were going for? Also, love the minimap. Edit: Maybe make the writing on the tabs up top black? catlord fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 00:31
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ExtraNoise posted:Continuing with interface design for the Modern Age Mod: I'm going to echo the sentiment that the tabs on top don't look good. I think it's that the colorful icons are clashing with the plain dark gray. The mini-map, on the other hand, looks good. Has a nice Shadow President feel to it.
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Jul 21, 2013 00:40
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I don't understand the amount of complaining about EU4's New World. It's not that it isn't woefully inaccurate, it is (I really need to read 1491 some day), it's that this is one of the most mod-friendly game lines in existence, where a historically accurate and dynamic America could easily be created without an official DLC of any kind. I'm probably going to get answers that will completely destroy my previous point, but what kind of new mechanics would be needed to flesh out the New World?
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Jul 21, 2013 02:00
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Kavak posted:I'm probably going to get answers that will completely destroy my previous point, but what kind of new mechanics would be needed to flesh out the New World?  I don't know how I personally feel on the matter.
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Jul 21, 2013 02:14
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Kavak posted:I don't understand the amount of complaining about EU4's New World. It's not that it isn't woefully inaccurate, it is (I really need to read 1491 some day), it's that this is one of the most mod-friendly game lines in existence, where a historically accurate and dynamic America could easily be created without an official DLC of any kind. I'm probably going to get answers that will completely destroy my previous point, but what kind of new mechanics would be needed to flesh out the New World? In the Iroqouis nations during the French and Indian war there was a guy called "The Half King" who had a shitload of leverage then suddenly didn't and was trying to find a way of restoring his power. Directly in front of George Washington he and a band of Indians attacked a French messenger who was looking for Washington to give him the usual "This is French lands get the gently caress off" notice. Washington eventually gets utterly destroyed by another faction of the Iroquois and other native tribes who were working with the French and were also pissed off at Washington's superior telling them he wasn't allotting land to any savage folk. The guy who accepts Washington's surrender, being the brother of the messenger, writes it in French; which Washington nor can any of his troops read. In the terms of surrender is a declaration that Washington, not the Iroquois, killed a known messenger which is in violation of international law dating back to pre-history. British poo poo their pants because the French got a major casus belle and would look like the good guys in any upcoming war. As it stands now in EUIII there would be no reason to ally with the Iroquois as a colonial power since it is faster to just annex them. Secondly there is no inter-country politics to meddle with so if the Iroquois managed to survive contact they would either be a hard ally with one or the other power. There would be no playing both sides off against the middle as occured in real life. There was a point in time where the Iroquois were importing enough firearms that they could have survived contact. Also if you learn the history of Washington before the Revolutionary War you'll find he was a pretty big fuckup who was wholly incompetent for the rank and posts he was given. Not that he was stellar during the Revolutionary War either, he was carried by Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben and Marquis de La Fayette. YouTuber fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 02:26
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DrSunshine posted:I have this feeling that it would be incredibly sad and devastating to play as a New World nation in EU4, once the Europeans arrive. Seeing your glorious empire rapidly unravel and depopulate thanks to massive plagues over a few decades would not be very fun. Overall, I'm sort of thinking a Windows 95 aesthetic would work well for the mod given that it is, after all, the 90s.
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Jul 21, 2013 02:30
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ExtraNoise posted:Continuing with interface design for the Modern Age Mod: While they are a bit ugly, I like the top tabs, they make the interface look kind of like a bloomberg terminal.  Which, considering the entire point of the game, would be quite appropriate.
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