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Virgil and Zero definitely need toned down some. They are both simply way to hard to press buttons against. While it's ok for characters to be hard to press buttons against these two really are a bit overboard. Unfortunately this problem isn't really something you can solve with simple dumb number adjustments. Meanwhile a lot of lower tiers do definitely need buffs, but quite a lot of (but not even close to all of) this isn't going to be something you can do by changing numbers either. And any changes you do make aren't going to really work unless some of the underlying system problems are taken care of first.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:32
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Here are the changes I'd like to see: Revert Tron to vanilla MvC3, assist included. Revert She-Hulk to MvC3 version Buff Sentinels Health Give Hsien-Ko golden armor invincibility on startup to make it perfectly safe to DHC out of. Faster Air walk Increase Chun-Li's damage Give Iron Fist super armor on some of his Rekkas Better startups for Thor Make it easier to pop out of Vergil's sword loops and decrease his overall damage slightly Make Nemesis's Biohazard Rush safer on startup so it can punish like an armored Bionic Arm No meter gain for Morrigan during Astral Vision Better evidence odds for Phoenix Wright, maybe a system of guaranteed good evidence following a combo Let Deadpool teleport in the air Take out zero's lightning loop Big Anime Fan Here fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 22:34
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Personally I don't think I'd take away all of Morrigan's meter gain during AV, just halve it should be fine, but most of those are good starting places.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:36
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As a global change, maybe making ToD combos meter-negative by design could be a nice thing? Maybe reducing meter building during combos and tweaking damage oh-so-slightly? Really, dealing 1kk damage with one meter shouldn't be happening, and when you couple that with characters that have amazing buttons/specials - like Vergil and Zero -, then things get real dumb real fast.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:48
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I have a question about Tron: what is the servbot-launcher good for? I don't think I've ever seen it used in a real match.Brett824 posted:I really think Iron Man could be better, but if they want to do that they really need to do that in a clever and unique way that actually distinguishes him from someone like Magneto. I never played marvel 2, but I saw the exhibition matches at... ufgt I believe? Iron man's smart bombs seemed to cover a lot more space than in umvc3; that seems like a neat buff you could give him. Make his zoning annoying enough that you have to approach him rather than him having to slowly parachute over to you. Just to throw an idea out there for Iron Fist, what if he got something akin to Makoto's axe kick; something he can use to change his jump arc to make him less predictable.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:51
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Big Anime Fan Here posted:Here are the changes I'd like to see: Did you really not play Vanilla against good Wolverines and Dantes??? There's a very good reason they took out all invincible assists in Ultimate (except Haggar's, which costs health). Also as a point character, Tron is WAAAY better in Ultimate.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:51
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Invincible assists would do a lot shut down what's broken about the game now though. Zero and Vergil wouldn't be as big of a pain and allowed to press free buttons if you could call Captain Commando on them.
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Jul 21, 2013 22:56
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Oh how I'd love for Ghost Rider to be viable, but I wouldn't know where to start. Mobility and mixups are king in this game and he has neither. His damage on point is also fairly weak when compared to all the touch of death that goes on. I'd love it if at least one of the chain grabs was an actual command grab like Super Skrull has.
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Jul 21, 2013 23:06
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Just give Ghost Rider a teleport. That's my new go to hotfix.
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Jul 21, 2013 23:14
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Big Anime Fan Here posted:Invincible assists would do a lot shut down what's broken about the game now though. Zero and Vergil wouldn't be as big of a pain and allowed to press free buttons if you could call Captain Commando on them. The big problem with Tron assist was more that it was infinitely more effective as an offensive tool than a defensive tool because it meant the opponent flat out could not press buttons on your attack, even if they guessed right on what action you were going to take. Because of how the Marvel 3 assist system works, she'd always come out so whoever was attacking was ridiculously heavily favored unless they were matched up against another Tron assist or if the defending player had Haggar's vanilla assist. Not to say it wasn't extremely stupid on defense too, because it definitely was and tended to shift the momentum back around to the defense because the attacker couldn't do anything unless they happened to countercall their Tron/Haggar assist (because Tron ate projectiles, beam assist->attack pressure didn't work on her assist) Also Ghost Rider should have a teleport that's also an attack that's also safe on block and comboable on hit. That way he can really be a good character!
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Jul 21, 2013 23:38
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I always hear developers say that they want to buff the low tiers instead of nerfing the top tier, but it never happens. I think it would be too difficult to do in most cases. What do people here think about incoming character mixups? They seem like one of the bigger of the many things that separate good players from average players. Balancing Marvel (which almost sounds ridiculous) is such a huge debate because so many different people have different takes on what the game should be. My .02c is that I personally don't like "braindead" characters/teams/etc. I'm not basing this on any great philosophy or anything, I just think most people enjoy Marvel's creative tech/setups/etc more than in a game like street fighter, where fancy gimmicks are annoying. Broken Loose posted:Magneto was the ultimate rushdown character and as such Rogue didn't even need to exist. Spiral and Cable were different sides of the ultimate zoning coin, both of which invalidated somebody like Dhalsim. I agree with this. Just because a character exists on the select screen doesn't mean there is a divine mandate for them to be viable. As long as all playstyles are represented, then that is fine. I don't trust people who think every single character should be balanced. It makes me suspicious that they are invested in anime pillows of those characters or something. 40 OZ fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Jul 22, 2013 |
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Jul 22, 2013 00:08
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Big Anime Fan Here posted:Just give Ghost Rider a teleport. That's my new go to hotfix. That's stupid and uninspired! Give everyone who doesn't have a teleport yet the ability to teleport the other character to them 
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Jul 22, 2013 00:11
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Bosushi! posted:Oh how I'd love for Ghost Rider to be viable, but I wouldn't know where to start. Replace the flame breaths with actual ranged grabs. Make the back h (hellfire spire thing) do a ground bounce, make his jh chain into js properly, increase the hitstun on js slightly, make h and s normals do chip damage.
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Jul 22, 2013 00:20
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Mio Bison posted:That's stupid and uninspired! Give everyone who doesn't have a teleport yet the ability to teleport the other character to them This is very similar to my suggested Haggar change of "give him SF2Koryu Zangief's SPD", please don't steal my ideas.
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Jul 22, 2013 00:24
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What if Ghost Rider could use chain of rebuttal (the wallslamming chain) in the air? Maybe cancel j.H into it even? He'd be able to make more of a statement air-to-air that way.
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Jul 22, 2013 01:19
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https://www.twitch.tv/dork_rex we're streaming a tournament now and some good local NY players are here, Insaynne, Flux, DragonGod etc. So tune in, I guess?
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Jul 22, 2013 04:19
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Fereydun posted:The big problem with Tron assist was more that it was infinitely more effective as an offensive tool than a defensive tool because it meant the opponent flat out could not press buttons on your attack, even if they guessed right on what action you were going to take. Because of how the Marvel 3 assist system works, she'd always come out so whoever was attacking was ridiculously heavily favored unless they were matched up against another Tron assist or if the defending player had Haggar's vanilla assist. In addition to what you said, invincible assists suck when you are trying to get a reset or mixup on someone. Watch someone like KBR play and he is mashing the poo poo out of A1 for lariat while he is in a combo. Stuff like that is pretty frustrating because it's basically a get out of jail free card rather than have to think about what's going on. I'd rather they do away with the invincibility on the assist and have it stop draining red life. Remember the days of tron assist + invincibility on berserker slash 
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Jul 22, 2013 19:55
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Nodoze posted:In addition to what you said, invincible assists suck when you are trying to get a reset or mixup on someone. Watch someone like KBR play and he is mashing the poo poo out of A1 for lariat while he is in a combo. Stuff like that is pretty frustrating because it's basically a get out of jail free card rather than have to think about what's going on. I'd rather they do away with the invincibility on the assist and have it stop draining red life. ..huh? I'm not sure why you think mixups need to be better in this game, and why you think mashing on invicible assists just mindlessly gets out of them. KBR mashes on lariat against obvious common resets (it's pretty much the only escape to Haggar's H Hoodlum Throw mixups as Hulk, afaik), but doing that for a lot of things is just going to get you happy birthday'd a good amount of the time. The current state of Haggar's assist is certainly not a get out of jail free card for resets and mixups, and the assist would be pretty garbage if you made it even more vulnerable just because the amount of time it's out there spinning (above a lot of the casts head, if they crouch it). I think being able to mash Haggar when you fall out of a combo at superjump height and hitting things that are completely off screen is kinda dumb, but I don't think that's a problem that actually needs "fixing".
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Jul 22, 2013 20:05
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I know the game was by and large more broken back then, but the fact that some permutation of Wolv/Dante/Tron made a super top tier team is kinda cool.
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Jul 22, 2013 20:06
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Hulk resets made me wonder. Can you option select forward/backward air H+S for a tech/throw or S? So like hulk gets S or throw, Morrigan gets shell kick or throw, etc? If that is the case then I feel dumb for thinking about it now.
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Jul 22, 2013 21:41
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I'd love it if Ghostrider was worth a poo poo. I don't even know where to start, he is so simple. Better longrange or midrange options? I think it'd be fun if he could dashcancel his b+H to help advance on projectiles or at least spice up his combos, which are also all the same. It'd be cool if his jump S pulled them to you on block or hit for some midrange action, at about his b+H range and maybe to threaten with the potential of his lv3 more, but they'd probably have to completely retool the character. I think that Ghostrider is pretty hosed!
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Jul 22, 2013 22:29
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Maybe if his chain normals did chip people would give a poo poo about him keeping them out.
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Jul 22, 2013 22:33
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Ghost rider isn't really a keep away character right now, rather he's far more of an anti projectile character, but he's not even very good at that, his ranged hitgrabs have too much start up.
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Jul 22, 2013 22:35
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Stop Ghost Rider from taking chip damage.
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Jul 22, 2013 22:46
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itskage posted:Hulk resets made me wonder. Can you option select forward/backward air H+S for a tech/throw or S? So like hulk gets S or throw, Morrigan gets shell kick or throw, etc? I'm at work or I'd test this, but I'm pretty curious to know the answer too.
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Jul 22, 2013 23:09
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Ghost Rider is just the Nth entry in the "I can play keepaway as long as you are across from or below me but if you have a trijump or divekick or teleport I can't do poo poo about it and therefore I'm rear end" list.
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Jul 22, 2013 23:45
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You know what I hate about these games aging? There used to be that guy who would come around every time low tiers were discussed, who'd immediately chime in with the "Well, in the Right Hands " troll.
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Jul 23, 2013 00:03
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40 OZ posted:You know what I hate about these games aging? There used to be that guy who would come around every time low tiers were discussed, who'd immediately chime in with the "Well, in the Right Hands It takes a low tier player to bring out a low tier character's potential. Coincidentally, I have the best Nemesis in the world.
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Jul 23, 2013 00:08
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Brett824 posted:..huh? I'm not sure why you think mixups need to be better in this game, and why you think mashing on invicible assists just mindlessly gets out of them. KBR mashes on lariat against obvious common resets (it's pretty much the only escape to Haggar's H Hoodlum Throw mixups as Hulk, afaik), but doing that for a lot of things is just going to get you happy birthday'd a good amount of the time. The current state of Haggar's assist is certainly not a get out of jail free card for resets and mixups, and the assist would be pretty garbage if you made it even more vulnerable just because the amount of time it's out there spinning (above a lot of the casts head, if they crouch it). In a theoretical update where overall damage is reduced across the board (and no TAC infinites to fall back on) resets will become more important.
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Jul 23, 2013 00:41
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Nodoze posted:In a theoretical update where overall damage is reduced across the board (and no TAC infinites to fall back on) resets will become more important. And in a game where resets are more important, being able to defend against those resets also becomes more important. Removing one of the few options for characters with no air mobility to defend against them (invincible assists, like Haggar) would make those characters pretty crappy. I think the current state of assists is pretty alright and nerfing them in addition to a change like that would make the game even less balanced.
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Jul 23, 2013 00:45
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Nodoze posted:In a theoretical update where overall damage is reduced across the board (and no TAC infinites to fall back on) resets will become more important. They would, but the other universal systems of UMvC3 discourage resets.
The reduced damage version of UMvC3 would just take a lot longer, and instead of having resets would just force neutral game at regular intervals.
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Jul 23, 2013 01:39
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Also, Zero and Vergil loops would still kill you.
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Jul 23, 2013 02:25
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I think it's been long enough now since release that anybody who actually plays the game more than once in a blue moon is reasonably fine with the core gameplay. Changing anything at this stage isn't going to bring in new players for any length of time, they will find something new they hate and stop playing. Just let it rock as is.
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Jul 23, 2013 11:34
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Nope I loving hate a lot about this game and play it pretty dang often! It's a fun and really terrible game when with a some character tweaks and small system changes it could be a fun and decent game!
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Jul 23, 2013 11:37
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Like someone mentioned earlier, giving ghost rider some air-to-air options like his wall bounce chain but in the air would make him a lot more relevant. At the moment he can't do poo poo against doom super jump finger lasers. Oh and I guess give him more damage, chip normals, and make his flame breaths worth a drat. It's a shame since ghost rider is such a fun character but so bad at this game. I love his goofy glitched back dash which you can mash (back + MH). Also tabs you should chill out a bit about the game, maybe stop playing taskmaster too.
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Jul 23, 2013 14:03
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WalrusWhiskers posted:Like someone mentioned earlier, giving ghost rider some air-to-air options like his wall bounce chain but in the air would make him a lot more relevant. At the moment he can't do poo poo against doom super jump finger lasers. Oh and I guess give him more damage, chip normals, and make his flame breaths worth a drat. But Taskmster owns. If they just made it so he could block after doing arrows in the air (like Vergil can after throwing Roundtrip) he'd be a much better character.
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Jul 23, 2013 15:25
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Here are Viscant's proposed changes to Marvel. Interesting read.
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Jul 23, 2013 20:44
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I mentioned this in passing earlier, but I want to go into more detail: in my opinion the coolest change they could make would be allowing me to call the alpha, beta, and gamma assists of all my characters. I could pick, say, Iron Man and call unibeam in the neutral game, repulsor for incoming setups, AND smart bombs for combo extensions all in the same match. Adding these extra inputs would require a little creativity, but I think the best way to do it is to move snapback to qcf + assist + S and then assign every assist to a joystick motion. If I have Doom I can call the assist I want with qf + assist, back + assist, or dp + assist. You'd still pick an assist at character select and can call that assist with a single button press, it would also determine your THC and alpha counter. This would be a major buff to Doom that'd need to be accounted for, but outside of that it wouldn't affect the overall balance heavily. For the most part characters have one viable assists, assists are just too difficult to balance against one another for that to change and so currently the other assists my as well not even exist. This change means we get to see those obscure assists; it encourages creative assist calls and team-specific combo extensions, both of which are fun and exciting for players and spectators alike.
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Jul 23, 2013 20:54
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Fenn the Fool! posted:I mentioned this in passing earlier, but I want to go into more detail: in my opinion the coolest change they could make would be allowing me to call the alpha, beta, and gamma assists of all my characters. Hello 10 years of Morrigan/Doom/Ammy.
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Jul 23, 2013 23:34
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For missile assist, how about the missiles do their normal damage (or even reduce that a bit, idk) but they just don't apply hitstun to the point character if Doom gets hit? They would still be a deterrent to a degree, but wouldn't be a combo breaker that leads to a combo for whoever called them. Should this also apply to point missiles? Would this idea actually change anything?
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Jul 24, 2013 00:14
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