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crazyfish posted:Took my BRC test this morning and failed I was doing the same thing during practice sessions, revving while braking. Talked to the instructor about it, he suggested that the reason was that I wasn't keeping my wrists straight while braking, but not to worry about it. You've got the clutch in anyway while braking, so revving the engine isn't something to panic over. Worth working on long-term, of course. Also: ugh, Chicago.
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Jul 22, 2013 01:39
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Not all that broken up about it because I hadn't actually planned on purchasing a bike for some time and just felt like taking the course for fun. I did totally fine in the u-turn and swerve but then on the braking portion I accidentally revved my engine while applying the brakes and I wound up slightly panicing and my stopping distance was way too long (like 25-30 feet instead of 15). Then I clipped the boundary coming out of the curve.
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So I just passed the BRC here in sunny, muggy Northern VA. I'm still pretty amped up about it and have already got a line on an SFV650 that a friend is selling and am eyeballing gear. Day one was a little rough due to the heat and ludicrous humidity, and the fact that the classroom session had run late the night before so I got all of 5 hours of sleep ahead of the morning range session. Well that and despite pushing water and thinned out gatorade, almost came away with heat exhaustion. That was a day where I did not envy the afternoon class. Suffice to say, a day of hydrating and a good night's sleep made day two go much smoother. The school I took it with (Apex Cycle Education) did a really good job with balancing individualized instruction and overall class pace. The rider coaches somehow got me from stalling and lurching on the early exercises in day one to only losing 3 points on the final practical exam (whiffed my box entry so while it was technically the right radius for each turn, I was too far left and ran out...) and setting the fastest time in the two-curve test for the class. We only had one person not graduate, and that was due to a bike drop. I really felt bad as she was doing extremely well on everything throughout the course and I think it was nerves. One thing that really hit me coming out of the course was how short it felt. Two days and we were out the door legally allowed to ride. I was really excited to get my piece of paper, but at the same time part of me wanted to go right back to a parking lot and keep practicing some of the basics. Have any NoVA/DC/MD people had any experience with follow-on riding courses with Apex? I know they offer a few different flavors and was considering taking them once I get a bike and get a little more comfortable with it (since some are bring-your-own).
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Jul 22, 2013 02:33
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Eh, you'd be surprised how quickly you adapt once you get on the road. While the BRC teaches you the very basics and gives you the knowledge to not make some of the more avoidable beginner mistakes, actually going on the road for two hours will teach you a lot more than days of parking lot drills. So go out there and ride on roads you're familiar with, during low traffic hours if you're really worried and go have some fun.
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Jul 22, 2013 07:14
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You're probably right, I think most of that hesitance comes from the particular flavor of insane driver that characterizes the DC area. Planning on doing some morning rides on the weekends when things are calmer since I'm inside the beltway. At least there's still plenty of side roads and such to play around on. Still really excited about getting out there once I have my bike sorted out.
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Jul 22, 2013 14:58
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I'm going for the riding portion of my class tomorrow. While I got a perfect score on my written test, I'm super anxious that I'm going to fail. 
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Jul 23, 2013 05:03
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The_Maz posted:You're probably right, I think most of that hesitance comes from the particular flavor of insane driver that characterizes the DC area. Planning on doing some morning rides on the weekends when things are calmer since I'm inside the beltway. At least there's still plenty of side roads and such to play around on. Still really excited about getting out there once I have my bike sorted out. Good stuff. IMO target fixation will be your #1 enemy on twisty back roads, and idiot drivers in the city. You'll learn to anticipate them but it takes some experience. With target fixation, don't be afraid if you see that big box truck about to hit the turn at the same time you are coming the other way or if you come up to a blind turn to slow down a bunch, it can be very disconcerting early on to have oncoming traffic or a unexpected tightening of the turn, which could cause you too go wide and off. Slow in, and smooth acceleration through and out.
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Jul 23, 2013 05:18
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Oxford Comma posted:I'm going for the riding portion of my class tomorrow. While I got a perfect score on my written test, I'm super anxious that I'm going to fail. You'll be completely fine. Just relax and don't stress out on the box (the only hard part) at all. You can completely mess it up and still pass with points to spare.
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Jul 23, 2013 05:23
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Oxford Comma posted:I'm going for the riding portion of my class tomorrow. While I got a perfect score on my written test, I'm super anxious that I'm going to fail. The MSF is about learning how to ride, not learning how to pass a test. So go out there and have fun! Even if you fail the test you still will have learned a lot. Oh and don't worry about the box, everyone screws it up the first time. And usually the second, probably the third as well. In fact half of my MSF class, myself included, screwed up in the box on their test and we all still passed. Actually I'm going to nominate that as the new thread title "MSF: Questions and concerns. Don't worry about the box."
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Jul 23, 2013 05:40
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KodiakRS posted:Oh and don't worry about the box, everyone screws it up the first time. And usually the second, probably the third as well. In fact half of my MSF class, myself included, screwed up in the box on their test and we all still passed. Actually I'm going to nominate that as the new thread title "MSF: Questions and concerns. Don't worry about the box." Plus, it's probably the least safety-critical skill they test (compared to swerving, emergency braking, looking through turns, etc.). In the real world, you can almost always either put a foot down or make it a 3-point turn if you have to.
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Jul 23, 2013 06:08
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Am I remembering correctly that I'd you go out of the box once, it's the same amount of points no matter how many times you go outside the lines after that? I guess my point would be if you go outside the lines once, don't push it or try to save it and put your foot down, which is more points.
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Jul 23, 2013 15:57
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KodiakRS posted:The MSF is about learning how to ride, not learning how to pass a test. So go out there and have fun! Even if you fail the test you still will have learned a lot. This right here. It's a great chance to go out, try some things in a structured environment where you can screw up horribly with minimal consequences and get some good feedback. One of the things my instructors were really good about was trying to get us to try different things, not just perform the exercise to spec. I think that's invaluable, or at least it was for me, in starting to learn what the bike will actually do in response to various combinations of inputs. I know for me it helped hammer in the idea that adding power helps stability, especially for stuff like the box where I was just straight up going to slow and killing my balance. I'm not sure if this holds for everywhere, but it was more points on ours to put a foot down in the box than to go outside the lines. Something to keep in mind (maybe). Just don't be my roommate and run off the range, crashing the bike and screwing up your hand, and you'll be fine. I guess on the plus side he did end up dating his physical therapist...
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Jul 23, 2013 16:01
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I'm doing my MSF course right now. Holy poo poo it's so awkward trying to coordinate my hands and feet. Almost as awkward as trying to weave.
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Jul 23, 2013 20:36
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You'll get used to it soon enough. After a good night's sleep you'll probably surprise yourself how much easier it gets the next time you're on the range.
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Jul 23, 2013 22:28
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Angryboot posted:You'll get used to it soon enough. After a good night's sleep you'll probably surprise yourself how much easier it gets the next time you're on the range. Yeah, it -definitely- is easier after I do the exercise a couple of times. Still kinda tricky to get my hands and feet to work together. But I am getting better. Can't wait for tomorrow! 
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Jul 23, 2013 22:44
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The_Maz posted:You're probably right, I think most of that hesitance comes from the particular flavor of insane driver that characterizes the DC area. Planning on doing some morning rides on the weekends when things are calmer since I'm inside the beltway. At least there's still plenty of side roads and such to play around on. Still really excited about getting out there once I have my bike sorted out. If you ever want to join in a goon group ride, we have done a few recently. Usually someone suggests an idea in the DC thread and we move to email to set up the details. I only just started riding a few months ago myself and it's been tough with how aggressive people drive around here. I took the MSF course, but don't have any parking lots near me to practice on so I've basically learned downtown at night after commuters have gone home.
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Jul 23, 2013 22:57
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I had someone dump a bike this weekend. After getting the rider up and making sure they were unhurt I called a break (it was freaking hot and humid anyway.) They didn't want to continue and I respect and applaud their decision. I suggested the student get or borrow a bicycle. They had literally no balance while on two wheels and during some time I had trying to relate things to the student I found that they had never ridden a bicycle before, never been on the back of a bike before, and all around didn't really have the best balance going. Scared the snot out of me when they tipped it over though. The other students were pretty concerned and curiously they were asking a lot of questions about the bikes afterwards. My comment was "This is one of the reasons you learn here instead of at home, bike got dumped, we've got spares. You don't have to pay for it and you didn't wreck a nice friend's/husband's/boyfriends bike. I renewed my hate for the Honda Rebel. I just can't find a way to sit comfortably on the drat thing. The battery/airbox cover digs into my hamstrings unless I sit on the thing all bowlegged. It just sucks. Speaking of "the box" I had someone that did well enough on it during both the exercise and the practice. For some reason when it came to the test they were shaking terribly at the thought of doing it. I had em take a few deep breaths and just drive through it and do the swerve.(the only points they got was on the box) Also when i give the test I stress not worrying about the drat thing. "It's a drat handy skill to have and should be practiced, but it's not a straight up life saving skill. Don't stress it." Skreemer fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Jul 24, 2013 |
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Jul 24, 2013 02:17
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Skreemer posted:I renewed my hate for the Honda Rebel. I just can't find a way to sit comfortably on the drat thing. The battery/airbox cover digs into my hamstrings unless I sit on the thing all bowlegged. It just sucks.
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Jul 24, 2013 05:49
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Skreemer posted:Speaking of "the box" I had someone that did well enough on it during both the exercise and the practice. For some reason when it came to the test they were shaking terribly at the thought of doing it. I had em take a few deep breaths and just drive through it and do the swerve.(the only points they got was on the box) Advice they gave us was that everything else on the test was potentially life-saving, while the box was so you could look good pulling into a parking space. Then they explained the testing criteria for the box, "going outside is okay. Putting your foot down is okay. Don't do both." And I'm average height, and sitting on a Rebel was painful in the legs. It was after the first day of riding (I was curious how the forward-control seating was) and I was already sore, but drat. It fit the five-foot-nothing girl who insisted on riding only that bike, though.
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Jul 24, 2013 06:53
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I'm 6'4 and did the MSF on a 125cc Eliminator. My right leg was so cramped that the rear brake was a binary affair, all the way off or all the way on. Made things kind of interesting.
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Jul 24, 2013 16:39
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I'm 6'3" and did the MSF both times at Harley dealerships on Buell Blasts. Fortunately they came in two seat heights ("low" and "dwarf"), but I still looked like a joke on there. On the topic of dumping bikes at the class, one lady wiped out the front end on the swerve part of the final test and crashed hard. I was across the parking lot watching so I couldn't see exactly what happened, but I think she had too much speed (for her) and terror-grabbed the front brake while the wheel was turned. The bike flipped (not endo'd, just hit the ground and flipped), she slid across the asphalt, pretty brutal. She was okay, I think her leg was scraped and they called an ambulance for liability and to be sure. It may have been for the best, as she wasn't very good during the class. There were exercises where you were supposed to practice shifting from 2nd to 3rd and back (I think) but she kept the whole train moving at like 15 mph and the bikes would lug horribly in 3rd, and weren't much better in 2nd.
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Jul 24, 2013 16:57
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hot sauce posted:If you ever want to join in a goon group ride, we have done a few recently. Usually someone suggests an idea in the DC thread and we move to email to set up the details. I only just started riding a few months ago myself and it's been tough with how aggressive people drive around here. I took the MSF course, but don't have any parking lots near me to practice on so I've basically learned downtown at night after commuters have gone home. Yeah, sounds like I'll be taking your approach - after hours in and around Arlington. Not too horrible after rush hour for sure. Once I get my gear sorted and get the hang of street riding basics I am definitely up for joining up with a goon group ride. Definitely want to make the most of the new bike and start to learn some good routes to ride in the area.
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Jul 24, 2013 20:37
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Well, I finished my MSF class with only five points - I went outside the Box once and apparently was just a little too slow doing the cornering. I felt a LOT better the second day. Shifting, braking, etc felt more natural and I could even swerve. While I didn't do perfect on the Box, I was doing a lot better at it at the end of the day than at the start. Overall I'm pretty pleased. I still feel like I need to practice more, but so far, I'm happy.
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Jul 24, 2013 23:34
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Grats on passing your test. Don't sweat it about the box; low speed stuff takes a lot of practice but you'll get a hang of it soon enough as long as you keep practicing.
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Jul 24, 2013 23:41
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EvilSlug posted:I've never understood how people ride those things in any degree of comfort; but they're good for teaching. I'm not a big man and it always feels like a dwarf bike when I sit on one.
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Jul 25, 2013 00:10
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KodiakRS posted:I'm 6'4 and did the MSF on a 125cc Eliminator. My right leg was so cramped that the rear brake was a binary affair, all the way off or all the way on. Made things kind of interesting. Another 6'4" MSF course on a tiny bike guy checking in. Thankfully they have one TW200 with bald tires to save me from an Eliminator. My stopping distances on day one were great, but I can't help locking the rear brake. I even tried moving uncomfortably back on the seat. You don't lose points for living it as long as you get it stopped safely right?
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Jul 28, 2013 14:19
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Wow, Mr. Knowsitallbutstillputsafootdown is way worse today. Giving unsolicited advice to the whole class, stories about going 115mph on his Victory, correcting the instructors. This guy's the complete package.
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Jul 28, 2013 18:08
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Stitecin posted:Another 6'4" MSF course on a tiny bike guy checking in. Thankfully they have one TW200 with bald tires to save me from an Eliminator. Yeah brake as best you can on those, the longer travel suspension does no one favors on getting the rear end to lock up. Just stay on the rear brake get down into first and progressively squeeze the front as much as you're comfortable with. In the braking test, it's only 1 point per foot past the standard.
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Jul 28, 2013 18:10
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Stitecin posted:Another 6'4" MSF course on a tiny bike guy checking in. Thankfully they have one TW200 with bald tires to save me from an Eliminator. You should try modulating the force with which you're activating the front and rear brakes, rather than shifting backwards. Counterintuitively, the more quickly you're trying to slow down, the less rear brake you should use. If you're just braking to control your speed a little bit for slow speed maneuvers, you can feel free to use 100% rear. On the other hand, while panic stopping? Barely using the rear at all.
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Jul 28, 2013 18:12
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Safety Dance posted:You should try modulating the force with which you're activating the front and rear brakes, rather than shifting backwards. Counterintuitively, the more quickly you're trying to slow down, the less rear brake you should use. If you're just braking to control your speed a little bit for slow speed maneuvers, you can feel free to use 100% rear. On the other hand, while panic stopping? Barely using the rear at all. It is my opinion that an emergency brake maneuver shouldn't include the rear because it it is impossible to keep your concentration on modulating the pressure. You'll be too busy trying not to kill yourself. It could work if you've practiced it a lot of times under a lot of different conditions/road surfaces but that's just too much work imho.
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Jul 28, 2013 18:53
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So what's the deal with using the front brakes? I avoided the front brakes on my mountain bike as much as possible, after flipping myself over the handlebars a few times. Yet CA has made me aware that using the front brakes is A Good Thing (except in turns, of course.) Also, what exactly is countersteering? If I lean my handlebars to the left, it ~magically~ makes the bike go to the right!?
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Jul 29, 2013 00:09
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Oxford Comma posted:So what's the deal with using the front brakes? As you brake, the weight of you and of the bike transfers forward. That gives the front tire more traction, and the rear tire less. Therefore, your front brake provides the vast majority of your braking power. Your motorcycle is a lot heavier than your mountain bike, and is a lot less apt to flip forward. When you took the MSF, you learned to squeeze the front brake, applying it gradually rather than grabbing a whole handful at once (which is, I suspect, what happened on your mountain bike). A combination of weight and mindful application allows you to use your front brake to bring your motorcycle to a rapid yet controlled stop, rather than converting it into a pinwheeling death machine. Anecdotally, when I started bicycling again after motorcycling, I swapped my brakes around such that my right hand controlled the front brake. I used the front as my primary brake, and it felt a lot more natural and a lot more controllable than the rear. Countersteering is the push-left-go-left you learned. You steer a little bit away from the intended direction of travel to make your bike fall in the direction you want to go, then you get back up again by turning.
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Jul 29, 2013 01:28
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Oxford Comma posted:So what's the deal with using the front brakes? You countersteer on bicycles as well. You've been doing it all your life without realizing it because two wheels doesn't really work any other way. Ride a bike and pay attention to what your hands are doing right when you turn.
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Jul 29, 2013 01:36
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Counter-steering made sense to me when I read about it, but I never actually felt it until I tried to swerve back and forth on my motorcycle at speed and using only one hand. Things become very obvious when you try that.
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Jul 29, 2013 02:38
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Safety Dance posted:As you brake, the weight of you and of the bike transfers forward. That gives the front tire more traction, and the rear tire less. Therefore, your front brake provides the vast majority of your braking power. Your motorcycle is a lot heavier than your mountain bike, and is a lot less apt to flip forward. When you took the MSF, you learned to squeeze the front brake, applying it gradually rather than grabbing a whole handful at once (which is, I suspect, what happened on your mountain bike). A combination of weight and mindful application allows you to use your front brake to bring your motorcycle to a rapid yet controlled stop, rather than converting it into a pinwheeling death machine. This is a good explanation of front braking. Thank you. So in countersteering, when you lean-left, go-left, does the bike first swerve to the right a bit before going left? You're not actually pushing to the right at all, are you?
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Jul 29, 2013 02:41
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Think of the lean angle determining where you're actually headed. The counter-steering determines how you lean.
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Jul 29, 2013 02:48
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Oxford Comma posted:So what's the deal with using the front brakes? Bicycle steering head angles tend to be practically perpendicular, so there's very little trail. The weight and momentum of your body is far and away the dominating factor in how the bicycle handles, and that weight is kept high up and generally as far forward as possible. Even the most aggressive motorcycles have far more relaxed rake and trail than pedalbikes, which gives a lever effect in which to flip the bike (and the rider) forward, it must first lift them up, considerable more than on a bicycle. Compression of the front forks reduces this, but it does the same on a front-suspension mountain bike. Also, generally, the bike itself weighs more than the rider, and that weight is held down, so that the center of mass is as close as possible usually to the axis between the two wheel axles. The rider's weight is also kept further aft, dramatically so depending on bike style. Of course the tire contact patches, brake systems etc are incomparable, but all in all you should not fear your moto brakes because your pedal bike likes to toss you.
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Jul 29, 2013 02:52
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Oxford Comma posted:So what's the deal with using the front brakes? I was terrified of counter steering because I just did not get it when I read it, but watched a video and jumped on the freeway and hoped for the best. It just came to me after so many years of riding a bike, even though I stopped riding bikes about 2 years ago. The video explained that when you go to turn right, it's going to shift your weight to the left and make the bike lean that way, and go that way. Same for the opposite direction. When in a car and taking a right turn, you are going to slide a bit to the left, and you do the same on the bike. Except with two wheels there's nothing holding the bike down and it leans to the left - and goes to the left. I never realized I was counter steering on my bikes before, so it was quite the revelation when it came to me on my motorcycle so easy after I thought I was about to die on the freeway. Maybe I should've practiced on some streets before getting on the freeway (had only 50 miles in my neighborhood under my belt), but I'm glad I did it. That freeway ride alone made me completely comfortable with my bike and wash away my fears of being around cars or not being able to control the bike. Obviously there is still a fear of being around cagers, but I can comfortably drive in rush hour without making GBS threads my self. I've only been riding for 3 weeks and already have had multiple people change lanes into me, and have had a couple cars and an suv tailgate me. I'm pretty sure a car even tried to break check me because they had a good 100ft of clear space in front of them and they slammed their breaks as soon as I got behind them.
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Jul 29, 2013 03:19
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Oxford Comma posted:So in countersteering, when you lean-left, go-left, does the bike first swerve to the right a bit before going left? You're not actually pushing to the right at all, are you? Yeah, actually. You can use this to your advantage. If I'm heading toward a pothole or a manhole cover that I don't want to go over, I can initiate a rightward lean just before I reach the pothole, and my bike's wheels will actually pass to the left of it.
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Jul 29, 2013 03:28
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Re: countersteering https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyn8vxr8Og0 This is an extreme example, but you can see how Rossi has his wheel turned to the right to initiate a left lean as soon as it hits pavement.
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Jul 29, 2013 03:31
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| # ? May 28, 2024 16:05 |
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KARMA! posted:It is my opinion that an emergency brake maneuver shouldn't include the rear because it it is impossible to keep your concentration on modulating the pressure. You'll be too busy trying not to kill yourself.
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Jul 29, 2013 04:33
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