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Combat Pretzel posted:Yeah, that. If you set a "regular" lens to MF, a mode where it does nothing, it'll work because its electronics tell the camera it works in MF mode. A true MF lens without electronics, it won't work for whatever dumb reason. Uh, what. How is the camera supposed to know what's in focus if you're using a manual lens?
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Jul 23, 2013 21:45
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evil_bunnY posted:They could modify the software to not check for the chip. But there are no electronics, how would it know? Are you telling me that the camera can know if its in focus without electronics, but is limited through software alone? I don't see how that's possible, but I'm definitely interested in knowing how if it is because that's awesome, and truly weird that they'd place such an arbitrary limitation in the camera.
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Jul 23, 2013 21:49
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Quantum of Phallus posted:Uh, what. How is the camera supposed to know what's in focus if you're using a manual lens? Shmoogy posted:But there are no electronics, how would it know? Are you telling me that the camera can know if its in focus without electronics, but is limited through software alone? I don't see how that's possible, but I'm definitely interested in knowing how if it is because that's awesome, and truly weird that they'd place such an arbitrary limitation in the camera.
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Jul 23, 2013 21:55
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Mr. Despair posted:So chip your lenses! A UV filter will protect against that.
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Jul 23, 2013 21:55
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Shmoogy posted:Nikon Samyang lenses are chipped, if you don't feel okay doing it yourself you can buy Nikon and an adapter. Only the most expensive Nikon to EF adapters have a pass-through for the connections  I've run into another interesting problem related to this. I've been using an old manual Nikkor Micro lens a lot on my 6D and it works fine. The aperture on the body just reads 00, as expected. The adapter has no connections on it whatsoever, so I assumed to any EF mount camera it would just assume no lens was attached at all. When I stick it on my EOS 3 it won't even fire. When I pull the shutter (in M mode, obviously), it makes a sound like the mirror went up but the shutter never opened. It says in that state until I push the shutter button again, and the mirror goes back down. Thankfully it doesn't advance the film when I do this. It's weird to me because my EOS 3 has no problem actuating when there's no lens attached at all. I can only assume there's some position sensor in the EF mount that will still tell it if there's a lens attached even if it's not talking to the camera body. Apparently newer Canon cameras don't care that the lens won't talk to the body, but not my EOS 3
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Jul 23, 2013 21:59
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Shmoogy posted:But there are no electronics, how would it know? Are you telling me that the camera can know if its in focus without electronics, but is limited through software alone? I don't see how that's possible, but I'm definitely interested in knowing how if it is because that's awesome, and truly weird that they'd place such an arbitrary limitation in the camera. Based on what the camera sees, it instructs the lens what to do. On contrast detection, the lens starts hunting and the camera guides it based on how the contrast changes for the better or worse. With phase detection it already knows what direction it has to focus and just stops the lens if certain measurement criterias are met. When lenses are set to manual, the camera just keeps checking the AF fields and does nothing with the lens. That's your job at that point. Why it doesn't work when there's a completely manual lens, is anyone's guess. I'd hope this could be overridden in software.
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Jul 23, 2013 22:06
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Combat Pretzel posted:When lenses are set to manual, the camera just keeps checking the AF fields and does nothing. That's your job at that point. Why it doesn't work when there's a completely manual lens, is anyone's guess. I'd hope this could be overridden in software.
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Jul 23, 2013 22:10
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Shmoogy posted:Yeah this is something that can only be accomplished via chip. Software will never be able to do that- but live view focus peaking can handle it. Incorrect. Nikons do just fine without a chip. The chip is only there to tell the camera that there is a lens attached, and for some reason the Canons won't AF confirm without it. Shmoogy posted:Nikon Samyang lenses are chipped, if you don't feel okay doing it yourself you can buy Nikon and an adapter. Doesn't matter if the Samyang is chipped or not. As soon as you slap an adapter on it, it's adapter that needs to have a chip. Thankfully they are cheap and plentiful on eBay. Quantum of Phallus posted:Uh, what. How is the camera supposed to know what's in focus if you're using a manual lens? Shmoogy posted:Are you telling me that the camera can know if its in focus without electronics, but is limited through software alone? I don't see how that's possible, but I'm definitely interested in knowing how if it is because that's awesome, and truly weird that they'd place such an arbitrary limitation in the camera. Though the magic of...the same way a camera autofocuses with any other lens: Phase detection through the lens onto an AF sensor. And yes it is a weird arbitrary limitation of Canon cameras.
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Jul 23, 2013 22:20
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So if you're using the camera's focus confirmation on a chipped manual lens, would there actually be value in doing a focus calibration at that point?
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Jul 23, 2013 22:21
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Star War Sex Parrot posted:So if you're using the camera's focus confirmation on a chipped manual lens, would there actually be value in doing a focus calibration at that point? Disclaimer: anecdotal. I don't have any bodies that do MFA, but the nuts over at Fred Miranda mention MF adjust on manual lenses to get the focus confirm beep just so.
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Jul 23, 2013 22:24
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I bit the bullet and ordered the 60D from buydig via ebay. $597 + $12 ebay bucks back and free shipping (no tax). You're welcome people who get it cheaper when they drop the price again.
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Jul 23, 2013 22:28
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Mightaswell posted:Incorrect. Nikons do just fine without a chip. The chip is only there to tell the camera that there is a lens attached, and for some reason the Canons won't AF confirm without it. Apparently I was wrong on all facets of this, sorry.
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Jul 23, 2013 22:34
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Shmoogy posted:Apparently I was wrong on all facets of this, sorry. I felt bad quoting you three time in that post :p
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Jul 23, 2013 22:37
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Mightaswell posted:I don't have any bodies that do MFA, but the nuts over at Fred Miranda mention MF adjust on manual lenses to get the focus confirm beep just so. Combat Pretzel fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Jul 23, 2013 |
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Jul 23, 2013 22:43
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Combat Pretzel posted:I thought MFA is supposed to compensate inaccuracies in the focusing mechanism. If PD AF, as evil bunny says, samples once and then tells the lens where to focus, I suppose that's when MFA comes into play. As in, the camera telling the lens to focus at 5ft, but Sigma being assholes have too high of tolerances during manufacturing, it actually focuses at 5.5ft even tho its electronics think it's at 5ft. You are probably right. Like I said it was anecdotal, I'm not exactly sure how MFA would affect a fully manual lens. In theory a fully manual lens would be dead accurate since everything is just going through the lens and there's no back and forth "move 4ft front, ok now 2ft back, ok good" happening.
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Jul 23, 2013 22:57
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My personal experience is that auto focus confirm is not accurate enough to shoot by. Like on a 50mm lens at portrait distance, I get maybe six inches of focus variability or something like that. It gets you in the ballpark but I didn't find the results as good as liveview focusing.
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Jul 23, 2013 23:11
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Borrowed the XT from work and brought it home to fiddle with it because I'm thinking about a used XTi. Take a bunch of pictures, plug it into the PC and it needs a driver. Whatever. Download it and run it and it says it doesn't work at all. Google it, and apparently Canon just never updated its website for the XT or XTi drivers for any OS newer than Vista (unless I'm doing something way wrong). That's pretty cool.
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Jul 24, 2013 01:20
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Huxley posted:Borrowed the XT from work and brought it home to fiddle with it because I'm thinking about a used XTi. Take a bunch of pictures, plug it into the PC and it needs a driver. Whatever. Download it and run it and it says it doesn't work at all. Use a card reader.
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Jul 24, 2013 01:26
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torgeaux posted:Use a card reader. We have one at work, but I didn't bring it home. I'll get one if I end up with a camera this old (and inexpensive). It's just amazing how old 8 years is in camera and internet years.
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Jul 24, 2013 01:30
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To be fair, 8 years is pretty old in anythingyears.
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Jul 24, 2013 01:32
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Just out of curiosity, I just looked up 40D prices and they're down to anywhere from $250-300 used on KEH, and 30Ds are sub $200. Mind blown. Unless you're getting an XT/XTi for basically free, you should consider a 30-40D, much more camera for not a lot of money. I remember when the 40D came out, I checked it out at best buy and just got the biggest nerd boner over hearing the speed of the shutter on full auto. Thats nothing now.
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Jul 24, 2013 01:37
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Verman posted:Just out of curiosity, I just looked up 40D prices and they're down to anywhere from $250-300 used on KEH, and 30Ds are sub $200. Mind blown. Unless you're getting an XT/XTi for basically free, you should consider a 30-40D, much more camera for not a lot of money. XTi sets usually eBay around $250 for body, kit lens, bag, card, battery and charger. Is that such a bad deal to get started? I will say I wasn't super impressed with the borrowed XT tonight, but I'm trying to keep it under $300-400 for everything plus a 50mm if I could.
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Jul 24, 2013 02:15
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Huxley posted:XTi sets usually eBay around $250 for body, kit lens, bag, card, battery and charger. Is that such a bad deal to get started? I will say I wasn't super impressed with the borrowed XT tonight, but I'm trying to keep it under $300-400 for everything plus a 50mm if I could. A 40D blows an XTi out of the water, and a 50mm lens can be had secondhand for around $90 to $100. The XTi wasn't a bad starter camera, but you're looking at not very much more outlay to get a vastly superior body with the 40D.
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Jul 24, 2013 02:29
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I haven't been keeping up with gear and I'm just now getting all the 70D news. I'm pretty stoked. It almost seems too good to be true for $1200. The biggest thing for me is that we're finally getting a crop sensor that's actually significantly better than my 6 year old 50D's. I don't mind crop at all but it was really getting to the point where if I wanted a good high ISO sensor, I'd have to dump all my crop lenses and go FF for $2-3k plus probably another $2k to upgrade my crop lenses. I'm just hoping it'll be clean at 3200 and pretty good at 6400. It looks like it has all the bells and whistles too. I'm trying to figure out if there is anything they gimped on it for its price. What is it missing? All I can see is a 100% viewfinder, and the pc port. I saw something about some mic jack that is missing but I don't care about video.
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Jul 24, 2013 03:16
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Huxley posted:XTi sets usually eBay around $250 for body, kit lens, bag, card, battery and charger. Is that such a bad deal to get started? I will say I wasn't super impressed with the borrowed XT tonight, but I'm trying to keep it under $300-400 for everything plus a 50mm if I could. While lenses keep their value really well, bodies get upgraded so fast in comparison. Especially on the entry level bodies, which are released what, yearly?, you're going to notice a very big limitation on that very quickly. At least with the higher end bodies, an aged body isn't quite as noticeable because they were built way more solidly from the get go. I'd say go with the 30D or 40D if you can.
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Jul 24, 2013 04:16
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There's a lot riding on the 70D high iso performance seeing as it will set the tone for the 7D2, unless they go batshit crazy and decide to make a sensor dedicated JUST for it. But if indeed it is good then my dream setup will be: 5D3 w/ 24-105L and 70D/7D2 w/70-300L and with a 100mmL macro for portraiture and macro. Shoot anything, anywhere, pretty much anytime, always have IS and all without spending a penny on lighting 
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Jul 24, 2013 04:29
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Huxley posted:XTi sets usually eBay around $250 for body, kit lens, bag, card, battery and charger. Is that such a bad deal to get started? I will say I wasn't super impressed with the borrowed XT tonight, but I'm trying to keep it under $300-400 for everything plus a 50mm if I could. Go with a 40D body, it will feel like a heavy duty piece of photography gear and will outperform the XT or XTI by a mile, I believe it also has a longer shutter life if Im not mistaken. Kits on ebay with everything are going for $200-400. If you can, buy the 50 1.8. It will really make a huge difference in the photo quality for not a lot of money.
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Jul 24, 2013 05:48
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40D used from KEH and a 40 mm f/2.8 "pancake" lens. The thrifty 50 is great, but the build and image quality on the pancake is god damned amazing. To be perfectly frank: the $100 or so difference between a used XTi and a 40D seems like a huge sum when you're getting into cameras. No, it's not nothing, but it's very small once things get serious. And between the higher image quality and much better ergonomics and built-in features, a used x0D is easy to suggest as a starter camera.
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Jul 24, 2013 06:04
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Thanks everyone. I had looked closely at the difference between the XT, XTi, and the 20D, and it seemed like they were all roughly the same camera. I hadn't looked much past that, since the OP called the 30 not a huge upgrade and the 40s I saw were around $500 for the kits, but I must have just hit a pricey week or something because you're all right, they're nowhere near that now. So I'll start looking into the 40D/t2i era, since it sounds like the $200 difference is worth it. E: KEH is a good spot to buy in the US? Google makes it sound like their idea of "bargain" is most people's idea of NM. Huxley fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Jul 24, 2013 |
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Jul 24, 2013 15:42
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KEH is great, and they tend to rate their stuff on the safe side. Most times their Bargain stuff is in absolutely amazing shape and should function perfectly fine, they usually just show exterior wear in places that would be expected and shouldn't affect performance at all. Most times, they will say if something is not functioning, scratched or broken. They also have a 6 month warranty which is pretty awesome for used gear. I purchased a Canon 10D for my friend when he was accepted to photo school. It was a bargain body and only around $125 at the time when I ordered it. When it arrived it looked flawless but the shutter button was slow to return. I contacted KEH and they offered the option of a full refund or a free upgrade to a bargain 20D. The 20D arrived and I believe he still has it to this day even though he has since graduated a couple years ago and started shooting with newer gear. Also, pay attention to the numbers. Canon once sold cameras that started with the D first. D20 D30 D40. Those are old and you don't want them. Make sure the number comes first. Another place to try is Amazon used, right now 40Ds are walking around at $275. You can get one for $300 with prime 2 day shipping. The nice thing about amazon is that they have buyer protection in case something arrives differently than described. http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000V5P90K/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used&qid=1374677916&sr=8-1
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Jul 24, 2013 16:18
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KEH is the go-to place for quality used gear at a the lowest possible price. They're pretty much the standard around.
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Jul 24, 2013 16:18
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Wario In Real Life posted:KEH is the go-to place for quality used gear at a the lowest possible price. They're pretty much the standard around. Also have a 6-month warranty on used gear!
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Jul 24, 2013 16:48
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Haggins posted:I haven't been keeping up with gear and I'm just now getting all the 70D news. I'm pretty stoked. It almost seems too good to be true for $1200. The biggest thing for me is that we're finally getting a crop sensor that's actually significantly better than my 6 year old 50D's. I don't mind crop at all but it was really getting to the point where if I wanted a good high ISO sensor, I'd have to dump all my crop lenses and go FF for $2-3k plus probably another $2k to upgrade my crop lenses. I'm just hoping it'll be clean at 3200 and pretty good at 6400. *Might* be better high-ISO. Just because it can do 12800 standard doesn't necessarily mean it'll be any good, and we don't know what compromises their dual-pixel system has introduced. The only thing they've shown off is the new video focus, and they're still gimping the camera by using the 4 year old AF system from the 7D, but without dual processors, CF card slot, or dual SD slots. They're pretty obviously carving out a niche for the 7D Mk II.
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Jul 24, 2013 17:52
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There's still an embargo on photos taken with it, right?
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Jul 24, 2013 18:17
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I wouldn't call the 7D's AF a limitation, especially considering that the rebel lines are so far behind. In fact I'd call it a wise business decision on Canon's part to spend a little more time and effort into making a great (for the time) AF system for your flagship APS-C body which will then filter down to the entry level cameras eventually. I don't see how SL1 sized bodies with better sensors, dual pixel AF and the 7D's 19 pt system in the future would be a bad thing.
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Jul 24, 2013 18:23
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Any modern camera with less than 50 AF points is a disappointment amirite.
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Jul 24, 2013 18:25
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That terrible, terrible 6D ruined so many of my shots... 
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Jul 24, 2013 18:28
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Combat Pretzel posted:That terrible, terrible 6D ruined so many of my shots... The 6D AF is actually a disappointment and clearly a "haha, buy a 5diii you fucks" move, but yeah, it's not like focus-recompose isn't perfectly valid for a lot of situations and didn't serve manual SLRs just fine for decades.
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Jul 24, 2013 19:02
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Combat Pretzel posted:There's still an embargo on photos taken with it, right? From the reviews I was reading last night, none were allowed to use a memory card/their card in the camera. I think better ISO performance will be a deal maker/killer for most people. For me, cleaner files at higher iso is the only justification for an upgrade. 7D AF will be nice but my 50D's AF doesn't stop me from shooting what I need to shoot. The other bells and whistles will be cool but won't have a dramatic impact on my final product.
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Jul 24, 2013 19:11
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Seamonster posted:I wouldn't call the 7D's AF a limitation, especially considering that the rebel lines are so far behind. In fact I'd call it a wise business decision on Canon's part to spend a little more time and effort into making a great (for the time) AF system for your flagship APS-C body which will then filter down to the entry level cameras eventually. I don't see how SL1 sized bodies with better sensors, dual pixel AF and the 7D's 19 pt system in the future would be a bad thing. For sure, but especially compared to, say, the D7100's brand-new 30+ point system, using a 4-year old system is definitely a case of catalog design to hit a pricepoint and market niche. Just because it stomps systems that haven't been updated since 2007 doesn't mean it's not a compromise. And that doesn't mean it's a bad compromise, or that those older systems aren't perfectly usable. I think Haggins is right that the 'worth it' factor comes down to low light performance, and I'd also add dynamic range.
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Jul 24, 2013 19:41
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