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crashdome posted:Milwaukee Great work! Either you missed it, or there just isn't a fourth birch. I posted that work a year and a half ago based on staring at a crappy aerial. At the time I must not have been paying close enough attention to the verse lines. My mental recollection of the line was, To the first birch Pass three The actual wording is: To the first young birch Pass three, staying west We're not looking for a fourth birch. The line about the "proud tall fifth" caused me to mistakingly infer a fourth birch! Maybe we're on the right track after all. Urban Smurf fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Jul 23, 2013 |
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Jul 23, 2013 04:21
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Merlot Brougham posted:Cask 10 / Verse 8 - Milwaukee We should definitely check that out. The statue"s called Laureate and it"s located right behind the PAC (Marcus Center). It was created by Seymour Lipton and erected in 1969. The top part is metal and the base is marble. Sealed inside the base of the statue is a time capsule containing memorabilia from the PAC's first season. Plankinton Arcade This doesn't contribute too much, but the "Step on nature" part of the poem may refer to the shape of the staircase, which is based on the clover pattern that is all over the Plankinton Arcade. At least, "clover" is the best description I can come up with for it. See the picture below, there's a clover ornament on both sides. As has been said earlier, earlier parts of the poem don't matter; if we can take later parts and just go from there, we should.
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Jul 23, 2013 17:40
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Assuming that thought process, why then use the square-link pattern on the robe instead of a "clover-leaf" (actually I found out it's a Tudor Rose pattern) when painting the image?  Dr. Bit posted:As has been said earlier, earlier parts of the poem don't matter; if we can take later parts and just go from there, we should. I used to think that way but, I've become more critical of ideas the more they flood in. I'm not saying we need to tie everything together from the poem/image but, we cannot leave obvious clues ignored. If we examine the Greek garden find, once the garden was found, most of the other clues were not needed. They did, however, relate to something to enhance proof the location was correct. Lack of finding anything "square-link", the thing in her cape, or even related to the figure herself makes me think we are heading in the wrong direction. I'm not going to accept that the only worthwhile image clue is the city hall and nothing else matters. Milwaukee On the same topic, the square-link pattern was found on a parking garage (by whom, I forget. sorry!) truth is it's a pretty common architectural design pattern. Found in vent covers/grilles/etc.. I am finding it in quite a few places but, not when I am investigating oddly. I have to imagine he didn't expect us to find it on some hidden vent somewhere and that it was more out in the open and most likely permanent. Same idea when referring to the compass. Assuming, of course, the compass is either an image or a 3D representation. The other option is it could relate to something allegorically?
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Jul 23, 2013 18:21
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Milwaukeecrashdome posted:Assuming that thought process, why then use the square-link pattern on the robe instead of a "clover-leaf" (actually I found out it's a Tudor Rose pattern) when painting the image? This is what I'm referring to: Step on nature Cast in copper Ascend the 92 steps After climbing the grand 200 The Plankinton Arcade staircase fits the last three lines, but there was some question as to how the "step on nature" part fits in. The staircase is based on the 4-leaf pattern that's all over the Plankinton Arcade, there's no question about this. If the pattern is understood as a clover or something, then the phrase "step on nature" might be a whimsical way of saying "go down the staircase." I'm not talking about the picture or the square pattern at all. Also, a Tudor Rose pattern has 5 points, not 4. Edit: Actually, that Plankinton Arcade ornament is a quatrefoil design. And the word "quatrefoil" of course just means "four leaves." Edit 2: And in case there's any question, the quatrefoil design has been associated with the Plankinton Arcade since its beginning in the early 20th century. Here's an article from 1987 that says a quatrefoil sculpture was made for the Grand Avenue's 5-year anniversary (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19870826&id=bIlQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=kRIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6167,7149051). "The festivities will begin at noon in the shopping center's Grand Court where a sculpture depicting the center's quatrefoil symbol, designed and created by Milwaukee artist Therese Agnew, will be unveiled. The work, with a four-club architectural design that dates back to the early 1900's, is made of plywood and steel and quilted satin fabric." Dr. Bit fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Jul 23, 2013 |
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Jul 23, 2013 20:15
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Dr. Bit posted:Milwaukee I actually understood all that. I was just proposing the question that if the pattern was prominent in a key place why it wasn't used in the image. Of course, the squares could be closer to the dig site and more important. I was just proposing a thought process I would use if I were in Preiss' shoes. Also, the pattern is the Tudor Rose. The rose would be center and the circles represent the leaves. See here: http://www.hkperf.com/archpat/archpattrn.html And here for more detail: http://www.woodcarvingworkshops.tv/videos/ornamental-carving/tudor-rose-mirror-x9/2-quatrefoils-1
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Jul 23, 2013 20:42
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crashdome posted:Also, the pattern is the Tudor Rose. The rose would be center and the circles represent the leaves. See here: That first link is just wrong. Do an image search for "tudor rose", it's a 5-point design. And the second link is for a quatrefoil with a tudor rose (5-point) center. Here's a quote from that second website: "History anyone? The Tudor dynasty took over England in the 15th century after a prolonged conflict between two families: the House of York, and the House of Lancaster. Both houses had single row, 5 petal roses as a symbol." (http://www.woodcarvingworkshops.tv/videos/ornamental-carving/tudor-rose-mirror-x9/5-tudor-rose-1) It doesn't matter, I'm just suggesting the "step on nature" thing is associated with this architectural symbol. In either case it's representative of a thing from nature.
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Jul 23, 2013 20:55
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Dr. Bit, I like the "Step on nature" as relating to the clover. Can you describe how it is the stairs of the Arcade are perceived as clover like? I don't see it. If it is, then I'm inclined to think of a set of thematic links to luck. Step on nature = clovers (four-leaf = lucky), idiom example: "high in the clovers" Cast in copper = toss a penny in a wishing well/fountain = good luck The image 10 has a shape that looks like a possible good luck symbol: a circular coin with a square in the center. I wonder if the references to luck is the mechanism needed to relate to the topic of "locus of control" Wikipedia says, quote:As a self-fulfilling prophecy Urban Smurf fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Jul 23, 2013 |
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Jul 23, 2013 22:36
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MilwaukeeDr. Bit posted:That first link is just wrong. Do an image search for "tudor rose", it's a 5-point design. [...] crashdome posted:Also, the pattern is the Tudor Rose. The rose would be center and the circles represent the leaves. True, technically it is just a quatrefoil. My point was and still is that it is not a clover. Was it a good substitute for a description at the time? Yes. Still nature? Yes. Still relevant? Yes. Does it really matter? No. You are right. But, now we have Urban Smurf citing clover in his theories every other sentence.  Semantics aside, I visited Zeidler Park today and took a stroll down the riverwalk. Zeidler I got nothing. Lots of birches on the riverwalk south of Michigan leading to Third Ward and deep into it. Plenty of places to bury something. I could not, however, find anything that fit the poem/image although I did walk the East side of the river and not the West yet. edit: pics will go here when I'm done uploading them. crashdome fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Jul 24, 2013 |
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Jul 24, 2013 01:44
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crashdome posted:Milwaukee Re: Zeidler, doesn't it have a sign re: Zeidler getting torpedoed off South Africa (Wonderstone's hearth)? It looks like a lot of stuff in that park has been recently added, as well. Wonder what it looked like in 82.
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Jul 24, 2013 01:49
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Crashdome, just for the record, so you're saying a quatrefoil is not a four-leaf clover? I'm not that excited about entertaining the clover since it would seem an Irish culture sort of clue. If luck is more the focus I can understand the wishing well. Maybe it pulls us eventually to some other luck based reference of which there are many. Rabbits foot? Feather in the hat? Smurf on a stick? Kosciuszko has a feather in his cap doesn't he? Now I'm taking more notice of that hat. Isn't it the same style hat as Napoleon? Bicorne...tricorne...quatrecorne??? Urban Smurf fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Jul 24, 2013 |
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Jul 24, 2013 14:17
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Urban Smurf posted:Crashdome, just for the record, so you're saying a quatrefoil is not a four-leaf clover? No, we were just trying to figure out what the technical name for the design is. Quatrefoil simply means "four-leaf." It doesn't necessarily mean "clover." The design has been around for a long time, you can see it in Renaissance and Medieval architecture, where the 4-point design probably had more Christian connotations than clover connotations. As to the design of the staircase -- the quatrefoil is the symbol of the Plankinton Arcade, and has been since it was built. The 4-staircase design is clearly a parallel to that. Here's an architect's drawing of the arcade from 1916. You can see the quatrefoil design along the railing of the bridge:
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Jul 24, 2013 16:48
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Urban Smurf posted:Crashdome, just for the record, so you're saying a quatrefoil is not a four-leaf clover? Dude? Google? https://www.google.com/search?q=Qua...iw=1440&bih=775 quatrefoil =/= 4 leaf clover.
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Jul 24, 2013 17:54
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Somewhere, someone mentioned how the verses match up with the paintings. Anyone know where that was?
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Jul 24, 2013 18:33
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I see the point in avoiding the clover sens since it goes with some assumptions. Its mainly a matter of the reason or purpose behind any specific clue. Is it a proximity clue or does some specific inspiration lead you from one crumb to the next? Ive treated the stairs as a center for a large arc. I see a circle but its being clarified as a quatrefoil. The verse presented us with a total number of 92, which required adding four groups of stairs together. Does that process of assembling four equal things inspre a particular course of action later on?
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Jul 24, 2013 19:21
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Urban Smurf posted:Does that process of assembling four equal things inspre a particular course of action later on? Does it have to? Where in the verse/image do we have any indication to do so? We've assembled 92 steps (and we're not even certain they are the correct 92 steps) and that's pretty much it for that line of the verse. [quick edit] einTier posted:Somewhere, someone mentioned how the verses match up with the paintings. Anyone know where that was? I believe they were assembled as each verse was designated a month and clues in the image (birthstone/birthflower) matched them up. [end edit] Anyways, here are the images I promised earlier. They are along the Riverwalk south of I-94 on the east side of the river. Plenty of hiding spots and plenty of older birch trees but, no other clue popped out at me at all. I think these all are dead ends but, maybe someone will see something I didn't. Riverwalk:      Zeidler Park:    [Another edit] Abugadu posted:Re: Zeidler, doesn't it have a sign re: Zeidler getting torpedoed off South Africa (Wonderstone's hearth)? The large plaque as seen here: http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=37268&Result=1 It all looked very new/modern to me. I also wonder what it looked like before. crashdome fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Jul 24, 2013 |
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Jul 24, 2013 19:41
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Wow, a lot more birch trees than I ever would have guessed. And most really do look like they're older, perhaps surviving the construction of the Riverwalk. And WHAT?! A giant clock in that gazebo thing?! That's way cool, I'm going to have to visit it. Too bad the entire sculpture and "compass" are from 1995, that gazebo looks like the kind of place Preiss would have been drawn to. Dr. Bit fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Jul 24, 2013 |
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Jul 24, 2013 20:04
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Dr. Bit posted:Wow, a lot more birch trees than I ever would have guessed. And most really do look like they're older, perhaps surviving the construction of the Riverwalk. I work in the lumber industry. Unfortunately those birch trees probably aren't 30 years old, or were just saplings back in 1981. Birch trees tend to live comparably shorter lives than maple, oak, or other hardwoods. They have a nasty habit of rotting out and having branches fall off or just toppling over. BeardMilk fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Jul 24, 2013 |
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Jul 24, 2013 20:22
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BeardMilk posted:I work in the lumber industry. Unfortunately those birch trees probably aren't 30 years old, or were just saplings back in 1981. Birch trees tend to live comparably shorter lives than maple, oak, or other hardwoods. They have a nasty habit of rotting out and having branches fall off or just toppling over. Well, poo poo....
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Jul 24, 2013 20:54
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I half expected that. Although I have been going along the idea that if there is at least one, there could have been more there previously.
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Jul 24, 2013 21:13
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crashdome posted:
Nice pictures but the Riverwalk was barely even an idea in the early 80's. These segments are from the 2000's. That little park off of St. Paul was part of an overgrown surface parking lot in the 80's. I started working downtown in '85 and started to explore it about that time so am pretty familiar with the changes that have happened since then. Those changes have been pretty big in most places even in the downtown parks. Edit: Just to add a little perspective, the 3rd Ward was a vacant warehouse waste land. 100% different than it is today. There probably was one or two lovely little biker bars, a gay bar, and a diner. That was the only life there at night and weekends and they were not very busy even then. Neutrino fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Jul 25, 2013 |
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Jul 25, 2013 03:28
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Thanks for the info. I had no idea some of these areas were so under-developed back then. One thing that motivated me to go down there though, there is a lot for truck trailers that is on the west side of the river right where the rivers meet and it looks like it was there in '83. The trees along there are huge and are very old. Probably one of the few places in that area that had green in the 80s. I've been actually trying to see if I could get there using the clues as there are birches and it would be a good place to dig without being noticed back then. That was my goal anyway. I don't think it is working out though. My fear is that he buried it in some sidewalk tree planter on Plankinton/Wisconsin/Water St. that has been long since removed. Or, I guess, pretty much anywhere else that has been renovated.
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Jul 25, 2013 04:20
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einTier posted:Somewhere, someone mentioned how the verses match up with the paintings. Anyone know where that was? If you meant something more specific than the general overview, I posted my current working theory on Page 85: quote:Cask 1 - Verse 7 - San Francisco, California There's plenty of disagreement, but I put stock in the literary references, so I think the Sarmiento quote locks Verse 2 to New Orleans, the Robert Louis Stevenson + Abroad in America for Verse 6/Charleston, and therefore Twain/Verse 7 with Image 1/San Francisco. Also, the Ghirardelli sign matching the image, and tying into the verse with "At stone wall's door, The air smells sweet". The feeling I get is that there's mostly a consensus on Roanoke, Houston, St. Augustine, Milwaukee and Boston. Verse 10 seems to have always been accepted as New York because of the grey giant and the rhapsodic man's soil, and that's good for me. They're also making good headway on the "Indies native" stuff. Besides, there are only so many ways to sensibly puzzle these together. Cask 9, Verse 5 - Montreal I'll take this opportunity to re-pitch my theory about Verse 5 and the Royal Victoria Hospital in Montreal. The hospital has 2 visual matches, a direct connection to George Stephen and I like verse 5 for many reasons, but a big one is because of the street the hospital is on: Pine Avenue. "Weight and roots extended, together saved the site" referring to Mount Royal, which the hospital is on the slopes of, and "Pine" is the "roots", being the road the hospital is on. Think of it like the roads being referenced in the Verse 12/Chicago solve. I updated the wiki with this theory if anyone wanted more details. For any Montreal goons who want to take a look, there is a little bit of a "wish list" for some areas around the hospital. I'd be grateful for any additional intel if someone on the ground had a chance to snoop around a little bit. It's easy to take for granted all of the time, effort, and technology put in by others to get us to where we're at with some of these clues and begin to over-complicate things with the verses too. Take Cask 3 for instance. If it's 1982 and you've got nothing more to go on than a copy of the book, your buddies, and the local library, how long would it take you put the puzzle together to match that verse and image? In whatever order you do it, you have to see that the figure in Image 3 looks sort of like an airplane, track down your airplane theories and check them out, connect it to the map of Roanoke in the picture, and then pair it with the verse because you know the Wright Brothers were friends of Octave Chanute. It's difficult, but relatively straightforward. Merlot Brougham fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Jul 25, 2013 |
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Jul 25, 2013 09:13
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Nice job on the wiki. Is the name tom burns a play on words tomb urns?
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Jul 25, 2013 17:50
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Sadly, it's just my actual name. Though you're far from the first to ask. Related: I've been considering a real domain name for the wiki since we're generating a fair bit of content; any suggestions?
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Jul 25, 2013 18:05
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Is it getting hits from outside SA? Is Q4T still working on the Secret too?
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Jul 25, 2013 18:26
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I haven't been tracking where traffic comes from (or at all, for that matter). I'll set it up and see if we're getting linked elsewhere.
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Jul 25, 2013 19:00
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Meat Street posted:Related: I've been considering a real domain name for the wiki since we're generating a fair bit of content; any suggestions? I say try and keep it as similar to the old wiki URL as possible. For those googling it I guess? I should really help with Cask 10 content and fill in the known. edit: I'm still open to hosting a mirror for redundancy/backup purposes if needed. I've had a small server online in some datacenter in Texas for years just to host my own projects and it sits idle most of the time. If something happens on your end, just point the domain over to me for keeping it alive and switch back when you are done. Let me know. crashdome fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jul 25, 2013 |
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Jul 25, 2013 19:04
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Cask 10 Neutrino, Those birch trees on the riverwalk do look a bit young and it's not unusual to see good sized trees come from the nursery for some city or park projects, making them "younger" or more recent than they really are. I did a brief study on different types of trees and their rates of growth. Try to measure the diameter of the tree at about chest high and multiply that by 5. Extreme environmental factors may alter the result, but a 6 inch diameter means you have a 30 year old tree. Preiss said to go to the first young birch. If it was young then, I'm guessing it had to have been at least established, we should be looking at a 7+ diameter birch. This birch in crashdome's Kosciusko Park looks like about 10-12 inches, putting it's age at 50-60 years. I found something linking harpsichord to Koszciuszko, Wikipedia on Tadeusz_Kościuszko, quote:At some point in 1777, Kościuszko composed a polonaise and scored it for the harpsichord. It was named after him and became popular among Polish patriots at the time of the 1830 Uprising, with lyrics by Rajnold Suchodolski.[31] Some notes on the polanaise here: http://www.usc.edu/dept/polish_music/PMJ/issue/5.2.02/polonaiseanderton.html
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Jul 25, 2013 21:29
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Meat Street posted:I haven't been tracking where traffic comes from (or at all, for that matter). I'll set it up and see if we're getting linked elsewhere. I hope not; most of the theories are completely bonkers.
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Jul 25, 2013 21:54
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I'm trying to get all the Houston information collected, but this is a long thread and .... well, I have other things going on.
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Jul 25, 2013 22:36
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A lumber expert contributed to explain the cause of the relatively short lifespan of birch trees in public parks. This is why SA will find the next casque. The breadth of knowledge here is as deep as the theories!
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Jul 25, 2013 23:01
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It's definitely pretty deep in here. He's right about the birches but, in certain areas they look well cared for. Small park areas and landscaped sections have some decent looking ones. The ones you might find along a plot of random trees or a wooded area are most likely long dead. Like I said earlier, I just hope to find one that's old enough to surmise there could have been more.
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Jul 25, 2013 23:12
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crashdome posted:It's definitely pretty deep in here. I seem to remember somebody earlier in the thread posting a layout of a park or a description circa 1980 that mentioned a cluster of birch trees in an area that has since been renovated, and the birch trees removed. I've not been following the Milwaukee hunt as closely, though, so I don't remember much more than that.
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Jul 25, 2013 23:29
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Holy cow, this is amazing. How did I ever miss this? Now to slog through 88 pages to catch up with everyone. I need to research more into it, but I'm putting up Alcatraz as the location of verse five.
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Jul 25, 2013 23:46
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einTier posted:It's more than that. Back on page 53 we were having a pretty lively discussion about this very thing. This kind of got overlooked: From a few days back, but I had a thought about the compass. Are there any Masonic lodges nearby? Their symbol is the square and compass and is generally prominently displayed on the building.
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Jul 26, 2013 02:11
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Anyone going to dig, soon? 
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Jul 27, 2013 11:20
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Bina posted:Anyone going to dig, soon? I hope so! This thread's been slowing down lately. (I hate to admit it, but my own personal interest has been waning gradually and I'm afraid that might be the case for others as well)
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Jul 28, 2013 19:48
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As much as I hate to say it, I wonder if Reddit and their infinite spare time could put a dent in these. They weren't able to identify the Boston bombers, but they do have tenacity, and nobody would get falsely accused of terrorism this time. On the other hand, it probably wouldn't be long before one of them got arrested for trespassing and pissed off the owners of a potential dig site.
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Jul 28, 2013 20:01
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I feel that the exact spot is determinable by solving the riddles and having a sharp eye. ... Urban Smurf fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jul 28, 2013 21:00
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LargeHadron posted:I hope so! This thread's been slowing down lately. The problem for me is I don't live in any of these places. I could take a trip up to San Francisco easy enough, though. I just need the time.  In fact, I'm going to be pretty fixated on San Francisco since I'm in LA. I got a buddy who lives up there, so if my curiosity gets too strong, I can defintely see myself going up there just for this crazy adventure, though I'm sure there are plenty of SF goons who will go digging around. This is just a shot in the dark, but has anyone already speculated about the dragon on the woman's dress in the first image being a reference to Chinatown? BubbleGoose fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Jul 29, 2013 |
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Jul 28, 2013 23:51
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