Paradox Grand Strategy: From the Carnival of Lust to the Enlightened Times

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A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

gradenko_2000 posted:

In terms of IRL history, how close was "Germany" to forming prior to the 19th Century? Is the ability to unite Germany in EU3 as much of a pipe-dream as the ability to reconstitute Byzantium in Victoria 2?

I don't think it's entirely a pipe-dream, France managed to do it despite starting out in just a bad shape as the HRE. Germany did have the disadvantage of being in the middle of Europe though, so the amount of force needed for it to fall apart was probably smaller. Had the Habsburgs been able to focus on Germany, instead of getting distracted by the Ottomans, they probably would have done it though. They could've also channeled the Reformation into a force to unify Germany, creating a unified German Lutheran Church*, especially if they had focused more on taking control of German territory before that point.

*Which I believe was Luther's intention in the first place.

gradenko_2000 posted:

Also, what was the actual historical deal between Burgundy and France? I never even heard of Burgundy (except maybe as a geographic location) before EU3, but apparently Burgundy was strong enough to have stood up to France for a while and is represented in EU3 as a really strong land power. What's the context?

The Burgundian dukes were a minor branch of the royal family that ruled France, who through conquests and purchases managed to gain control over a considerable amount of territory. I believe they had some expert Florentine bankers helping them finance it, with the riches of the Netherlands being used to pay it off later. They* basically acted like a power gamer in game terms, totally going for broke in their attempt to break free from the French crown. Unfortunately, Charles the Bold had more balls than sense (hence the name), and he ended up getting himself killed before he had a male heir, and thus all their gains were split between the French crown and the Habsburgs who had married his daughter. One has to realize that the ability to finance your wars was probably the major thing that defined success in that period, so being on good terms with the bankers would allow one to punch way above ones weight class. (Plus France had the problem of some very rebellious nobleman for the first few decades of the game.)

*Basically three generations IIRC.

A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Jul 24, 2013

# ? Jul 24, 2013 20:58

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# ? May 31, 2024 10:43

DStecks: Feb 6, 2012

A Buttery Pastry posted:

*Which I believe was Luther's intention in the first place.

Luther's original intention was to fix the Catholic Church. The Reformation only resulted in a schism when it became clear that the Church would not address most of the Protestant issues, and arguably could not while still remaining the Roman Catholic Church.

# ? Jul 24, 2013 21:38

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

DStecks posted:

Luther's original intention was to fix the Catholic Church. The Reformation only resulted in a schism when it became clear that the Church would not address most of the Protestant issues, and arguably could not while still remaining the Roman Catholic Church.

Sorry, you're absolutely right. I meant his intent after he figured out that a split was the only option. Then of course us Danes* and Swedes adopted Lutheranism as well, and half of Germany remained (or was forced to become again) Catholic, and it just kinda didn't work out for him.

*Which we elegantly forced on the Norwegians by basically preventing any non-Lutheran priests from going there, since they were all trained in Denmark.

# ? Jul 24, 2013 21:47

fuf: Sep 12, 2004; haha

A Buttery Pastry posted:

* * * *

hey have you heard of these new things called parentheses?*

*just playin

# ? Jul 24, 2013 22:07

Jean Pony: Nov 27, 2007

Watching quill play and I'm fiending to play. I want to try countries all over the place and can't wait to check it out myself.

Would be sort of hilarious if Paradox decides that it's not up to snuff with their new quality policy and postpones the game.

Your chancellor posted:

Several prominent employees from sales and accounting are pointing out that the path we are going when it comes to bug fixes and polish is utterly foolish and will amount to nothing. They demand that we stop the current approach and stick with what was good enough for EUIII.:

Option A: They have a point! Release as is. [-20 legitimacy, +100 ducats]
Option B: Ignore them. Postpone the game until Christmas. [-5 prestige, Global revoltrisk +5 until game is out]

# ? Jul 24, 2013 22:08

Fister Roboto: Feb 21, 2008

DStecks posted:

There's something stupid going on; I'm playing as Ethiopia again, now dealing with some one-off pretender rebels I got from a slider shift. I'm following them, and consistently winning battles, but I never inflict any casualties, so the sons of bitches just march to a different province and the whole thing becomes a scene from Benny loving Hill. It's ridiculous! Is this a glitch, or some intended behaviour I'm not aware of?

This is 100% WAD. Welcome to playing as a "primitive" nation! Best way to deal with that is to leave a single regiment in each province as you chase them so that they eventually have no place to run.

# ? Jul 24, 2013 22:14

Kersch: Aug 22, 2004; I like this internet

gradenko_2000 posted:

In terms of IRL history, how close was "Germany" to forming prior to the 19th Century? Is the ability to unite Germany in EU3 as much of a pipe-dream as the ability to reconstitute Byzantium in Victoria 2?

Also, what was the actual historical deal between Burgundy and France? I never even heard of Burgundy (except maybe as a geographic location) before EU3, but apparently Burgundy was strong enough to have stood up to France for a while and is represented in EU3 as a really strong land power. What's the context?

I wouldn't say that Germany was 'close to forming' prior to the 19th century but from what little I know, the sentiment was there at least. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1848_in_the_German_states I don't think that a pan-german revolution like this just comes from nowhere, there had to be a foundation for those ideas to stand on for a while leading up to it. Maybe the earliest that it would make sense happening in the EU timeframe is to coincide with the Napoleonic wars depending on what the situation is like in the German states at around the same time.

# ? Jul 24, 2013 22:19

Dibujante: Jul 27, 2004

Fister Roboto posted:

This is 100% WAD. Welcome to playing as a "primitive" nation! Best way to deal with that is to leave a single regiment in each province as you chase them so that they eventually have no place to run.

I'm hoping Ethiopia is not this broken in EU4.

# ? Jul 24, 2013 22:21

Trujillo: Jul 10, 2007

I remember hearing something about rebels not ping ponging anymore in eu4 but I'm pretty sure I saw it in these quill videos. I just hope tribal succession isn't handled the same way. I like the idea of playing as a steppe horde but having rebel stacks in every province every time your leader dies is pretty tedious. A succession crisis should be because of certain factors and not just a 100% guarantee. You'd think there'd be at least one time that mostly everybody would be okay with the new khan. Funny thing is in eu3 it'd even trigger again when your regency council ends. My heir was 15 when my ruler died and a month later he came to power so the already out of control rebels doubled everywhere. Has there been anything about tribal succession in any of the dev diaries?

# ? Jul 24, 2013 22:37

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

fuf posted:

hey have you heard of these new things called parentheses?*

*just playin

Sorry.

Trujillo posted:

I remember hearing something about rebels not ping ponging anymore in eu4 but I'm pretty sure I saw it in these quill videos. I just hope tribal succession isn't handled the same way. I like the idea of playing as a steppe horde but having rebel stacks in every province every time your leader dies is pretty tedious. A succession crisis should be because of certain factors and not just a 100% guarantee. You'd think there'd be at least one time that mostly everybody would be okay with the new khan. Funny thing is in eu3 it'd even trigger again when your regency council ends. My heir was 15 when my ruler died and a month later he came to power so the already out of control rebels doubled everywhere. Has there been anything about tribal succession in any of the dev diaries?

Yeah, hopefully that has had an overhaul so you can kinda see them coming, and attempt to prevent them. It's not like the heir isn't going to be prepared ahead of time to take over. More dangerous, and less frequent would probably be the best solution.

# ? Jul 24, 2013 23:07

Flython: Oct 21, 2010

One of the EU3 AARs I followed was a world conquest as a tribal Golden Horde. Every new ruler meant a new succession crisis.

The final tally of rebels killed?

Rebel Count = 7563
Rebels = 34,128,000

I love this game.

# ? Jul 24, 2013 23:17

binge crotching: Apr 2, 2010

Trujillo posted:

My heir was 15 when my ruler died and a month later he came to power so the already out of control rebels doubled everywhere. Has there been anything about tribal succession in any of the dev diaries?

In vanilla EU3 5.x, event 600 (Tribal Succession Crisis) will never fire if you already have the modifier. The modifier lasts 2 years normally, were you playing a mod?

# ? Jul 24, 2013 23:21

Bremen: Jul 20, 2006; Our God..... is an awesome God

Out of curiosity, are there any instructional LPs for Victoria 2 like the really awesome one for CK2? I've been meaning to get into it but I barely ever figured out the first one.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 05:39

Beamed: Nov 26, 2010; Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

I don't think it's entirely a pipe-dream, France managed to do it despite starting out in just a bad shape as the HRE. Germany did have the disadvantage of being in the middle of Europe though, so the amount of force needed for it to fall apart was probably smaller. Had the Habsburgs been able to focus on Germany, instead of getting distracted by the Ottomans, they probably would have done it though. They could've also channeled the Reformation into a force to unify Germany, creating a unified German Lutheran Church*, especially if they had focused more on taking control of German territory before that point.

This is an honestly kind of weird viewpoint - no one really thought of a unified, National Germany like that back then, at all. It wasn't a goal people just decided to/not to make. It's kind of like saying that Scandinavia is something the Nordic countries have been trying to do but never really achieved - it may have been true of one point, but it's making an odd assumption.

Sorry, I know that might sound incoherent, but the reason Germany never became a single country before the 19th century is because the national sentiment didn't exist. There already was a feudal Kingdom of Germany - the HRE.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 05:44

Trujillo: Jul 10, 2007

SeaTard posted:

In vanilla EU3 5.x, event 600 (Tribal Succession Crisis) will never fire if you already have the modifier. The modifier lasts 2 years normally, were you playing a mod?

Yeah, it was death and taxes. I may be misremembering the amount of time that passed but I know I was still dealing with the last succession crisis when I got hit with a fresh one because my regency council ended.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 05:58

Necroneocon: May 12, 2009; by Shine

Bremen posted:

Out of curiosity, are there any instructional LPs for Victoria 2 like the really awesome one for CK2? I've been meaning to get into it but I barely ever figured out the first one.

Lots of people wanted to make one during the period of Vicky 2 talk in this thread. A mod said no to someone who would have made a good one, then said yes to someone who made a bad one that only made 2 posts. Now everyone is crazy for EU4 here so Vicky 2 tutorial thread will never happen.

So you're out of luck unfortunately. It's a shame, it would have been a great thread had someone who actually wanted to do it instead of someone who had to be talked out of a zany 4-chan gimmick thread, only to stop it within a week of updating.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 06:03

Kersch: Aug 22, 2004; I like this internet

I'm going to start working on one this weekend. Primarily because if I don't do it before EU4 comes out, it'd end up getting put off for like a year.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 06:38

ExtraNoise: Apr 11, 2007

Necroneocon posted:

Lots of people wanted to make one during the period of Vicky 2 talk in this thread. A mod said no to someone who would have made a good one, then said yes to someone who made a bad one that only made 2 posts. Now everyone is crazy for EU4 here so Vicky 2 tutorial thread will never happen.

So you're out of luck unfortunately. It's a shame, it would have been a great thread had someone who actually wanted to do it instead of someone who had to be talked out of a zany 4-chan gimmick thread, only to stop it within a week of updating.

Whoa, whoa. I think a lot of us Vic 2 nerds are just letting everyone have their chance to talk about EU4 since there's a lot of news and stuff coming out about it right now up to release. It doesn't mean there isn't still interest for Victoria 2.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 06:49

Patter Song: Mar 26, 2010; Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.; Fun Shoe

Kersch posted:

I'm going to start working on one this weekend. Primarily because if I don't do it before EU4 comes out, it'd end up getting put off for like a year.

You'd be good at it.

I was originally thinking of doing one, but frankly, I don't want to write a teaching LP and that's what Kersch does well so he can have this.

Besides, I still owe Wiz an Iron Cross LP.

How did I let him talk me into this...Iron Cross is really not all that interesting! It's just HOI2 infected by one of those brain parasites that puppets a creature and makes it jump off cliffs.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 07:00

Gorgo Primus: Mar 29, 2009; We shall forge the most progressive republic ever known to man!

I gave you a perfectly good gimmick Patter; get to work. :colbert:

# ? Jul 25, 2013 07:10

Tahirovic: Feb 25, 2009; Fun Shoe

So you can sell provinces back to the AI? That sounds like it could be an interesting way to make money, just keep stealing the same province after every truce and then sell it back.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 07:32

V for Vegas: Sep 1, 2004; THUNDERDOME LOSER

Tahirovic posted:

So you can sell provinces back to the AI? That sounds like it could be an interesting way to make money, just keep stealing the same province after every truce and then sell it back.

God I abused the hell out of that so much in V1.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 07:39

uPen: Jan 25, 2010; Zu Rodina!

V for Vegas posted:

God I abused the hell out of that so much in V1.

Someone repost the picture of Serbia that 'conquered' a huge empire in the Balkans by doing nothing but buying and selling provinces.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 07:42

LP97S: Apr 25, 2008

Bremen posted:

Out of curiosity, are there any instructional LPs for Victoria 2 like the really awesome one for CK2? I've been meaning to get into it but I barely ever figured out the first one.

I think I need one, I got by some Vicky 2 by randomly guessing but HoD is throwing me in a loop.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 07:42

Vodos: Jul 17, 2009; And how do we do that? We hurt a lot of people...

loving Johan!

Also, more England. I finally noticed the "Leader may negotiate for us" checkbox in the war screen, it seems to be on by default. I guess you can uncheck it to avoid getting anything from alliance wars? What for?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUG5fPIHC2Q

# ? Jul 25, 2013 08:57

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Beamed posted:

This is an honestly kind of weird viewpoint - no one really thought of a unified, National Germany like that back then, at all. It wasn't a goal people just decided to/not to make. It's kind of like saying that Scandinavia is something the Nordic countries have been trying to do but never really achieved - it may have been true of one point, but it's making an odd assumption.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying it would be the goal of the Habsburgs as such, but increasing their holdings in Germany certainly was, as well as ensuring complete dominance of it. They were already technically rulers of it, but it became more and more theoretical after the Reformation ripped Germany apart. Had the Habsburgs played their cards right, they could have knocked heads together until the various nobles below them in the hierarchy treated them like the nobles of France treated the French king. Basically, a centralized HRE. Considering that the HRE was officially known as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation since 1512 (First used in 1474), that would have been a Germany, just a Germany with an incredibly fancy title. No, they absolutely wouldn't have done away with the HRE title of course, but it would be a kind of Germany.

Beamed posted:

Sorry, I know that might sound incoherent, but the reason Germany never became a single country before the 19th century is because the national sentiment didn't exist. There already was a feudal Kingdom of Germany - the HRE.

I don't think the existence of semi-national state (the late HRE) is evidence of there being no national sentiment, the national sentiment was just more limited and relatively content with the current situation.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 09:00

Bremen: Jul 20, 2006; Our God..... is an awesome God

Kersch posted:

I'm going to start working on one this weekend. Primarily because if I don't do it before EU4 comes out, it'd end up getting put off for like a year.

Thank you! Your Crusader Kings 2 thread was what inspired me to start playing that game (I have all of the Paradox grand strategy games thanks to a Paradox pack off Amazon, except ironically EU3 which I manage to just miss every time they give out free copies), so I'm sure a Victoria version would be just what I need to get past staring at the screen in befuddlement for 10 minutes.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 09:01

burnishedfume: Mar 8, 2011; You really are a louse...

Vodos posted:

loving Johan!

Also, more England. I finally noticed the "Leader may negotiate for us" checkbox in the war screen, it seems to be on by default. I guess you can uncheck it to avoid getting anything from alliance wars? What for?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUG5fPIHC2Q

I think maybe the checkbox can be so if the leader of the war peaces out, maybe it allows you to not agree to the peace deal and keep fighting anyway? Might be for when you're losing a war but are confident you can turn it around, but the warleader who didn't even do poo poo suddenly surrenders for you.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 09:18

MinistryofLard: Mar 22, 2013; Goblin babies did nothing wrong.

uPen posted:

Someone repost the picture of Serbia that 'conquered' a huge empire in the Balkans by doing nothing but buying and selling provinces.

That feature was probably the most broken thing in Vicky 1. Not so much because you could, but because if you had high relations (+200) with another country they would place ridiculous amount of value on the provinces you are selling.

This means that you can conquer a bunch of worthless colonial provinces (say, Alaska), and sell them to Britain one by one for like four provinces each and end up with Australia+Quebec for the cost of sending a cavalry squadron to Alaska during the Crimean War and building a single colonial building.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 09:26

pdxjohan: Sep 9, 2011; Paradox dev dude.

Jean Pony posted:

Watching quill play and I'm fiending to play. I want to try countries all over the place and can't wait to check it out myself.

Would be sort of hilarious if Paradox decides that it's not up to snuff with their new quality policy and postpones the game.

Thats something you do at alpha stage, not a few weeks before release.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 09:28

pdxjohan: Sep 9, 2011; Paradox dev dude.

DrProsek posted:

I think maybe the checkbox can be so if the leader of the war peaces out, maybe it allows you to not agree to the peace deal and keep fighting anyway? Might be for when you're losing a war but are confident you can turn it around, but the warleader who didn't even do poo poo suddenly surrenders for you.

Its so a warleader can't gently caress you over just cause he lost badly.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 09:30

V for Vegas: Sep 1, 2004; THUNDERDOME LOSER

Are you going to Sydney, Johan?

# ? Jul 25, 2013 09:34

pdxjohan: Sep 9, 2011; Paradox dev dude.

V for Vegas posted:

Are you going to Sydney, Johan?

Sadly no. I got a game that needs to be polished 0.001% more that week!

# ? Jul 25, 2013 09:52

fuf: Sep 12, 2004; haha

pdxjohan posted:

Sadly no. I got a game that needs to be polished 0.001% more that week!

Hey man just release it now so you can go to Sydney. We don't mind.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 10:02

csm141: Jul 19, 2010; i care, i'm listening, i can help you without giving any advice; Pillbug

It'll be like old times.

By old times I mean like two years ago.

'other than minimum wages causing worldwide economic collapse, this game is GREAT'

# ? Jul 25, 2013 10:11

Guildencrantz: May 1, 2012; IM ONE OF THE GOOD ONES

DStecks posted:

This is going to sound racist as hell, but what is it with Poles and strategy games? You don't see anybody else losing their loving minds over how/if their country exists as a faction. Is there just a really big strategy game fanbase in Poland?

(please do not probate me, I am not racist against Poles. )

This was a couple pages back, but as a Polack I feel I can chip in. Yes, there is a large strategy fanbase, and Paradox games seem to be a lot more mainstream here than in the US, and took off earlier. Most gamers I know who have anything to do with strategy have at least played an EU or HoI game at some point. Plus, the "Sarmatians, sabres and sejmiks" era of EU is pretty much universally considered Poland's golden age and gets a lot of emphasis in school and culture, so naturally people clamor for it harder than in any other historical period - it's not like we'll get much patriotic-wish-fulfillment mileage out of Vicky 2 :v:

And we are, in fact, a bunch of giant rabid nationalists. I'm somewhere to the left of Noam Chomsky, and even I can feel myself getting a little irritated and impatient every time a dev diary comes out and I still don't know what Poland will be like to play.

edit: obligatory YOU RACIST, HOW DARE YOU INSULT THE GLORIOUS NATION OF POLSKA :poland:

# ? Jul 25, 2013 10:25

csm141: Jul 19, 2010; i care, i'm listening, i can help you without giving any advice; Pillbug

If my American history textbook had three chapters called '17th Century: We're the loving Greatest', '19th Century: We Don't Exist' and '20th Century: Soviet Feifdom and Unimaginable Pain and Suffering', I'd probably be more interested in the first chapter more than the other ones.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 10:59

Dj Vulvio: Mar 1, 2007; Good morning Mrs. Bates

Orange Devil posted:

I just hope Spain doesn't conquer North Africa forever and always, the Ottomans actually regularly Ottoman it up and we don't have Steppe Snakes. That'd be a drat good start.

EU3 5.2 has stronger north African states, Ottomans and Austria. Played 4 games since its release as Muscovy and always witnessed them eating alive Hungary and Egypt, while no european state ever managing to touch Morocco.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 12:02

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Dj Vulvio posted:

EU3 5.2 has stronger north African states, Ottomans and Austria. Played 4 games since its release as Muscovy and always witnessed them eating alive Hungary and Egypt, while no european state ever managing to touch Morocco.

EU3 is soooo last decade.

Seriously though, I haven't been able to boot up EU3 since I saw the EU4 trade system. What's this, a trade system that is on-map, directly interacts with other game mechanics and makes sense? :psypop:

Oh how mad I will be if it turns out it's horribly broken somehow.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 12:29

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# ? May 31, 2024 10:43

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Orange Devil posted:

EU3 is soooo last decade.

Seriously though, I haven't been able to boot up EU3 since I saw the EU4 trade system. What's this, a trade system that is on-map, directly interacts with other game mechanics and makes sense?

Yeah, there's just so much stuff in EU4 that seems like a marked up improvement over EU3 that I can't play EU3 either. Plus it already looks more sensible at this point than EU3, in terms of what the various states are doing, and that's before the game is even released. I know that timelapse video we saw was just a single game, but drat if it didn't look like an improvement over base EU3.* If Wiz has fixed stuff like OPM Novgorod not getting gobbled up (which I think prevented the formation of Russia) in the final release, the game is looking really good. Hell, it already is even with that, but having the AI be a bit better at consolidating and realizing how close it us to certain goals would certainly be a major thing. The biggest test of the AI would probably be Russia managing to do what it did in real life though, which I don't think I've ever seen it do in EU3. Sure, snaking its way to Kamchatka yes, but not really filling out and pushing south as well.

Alternatively, the AI being able to Unify Islam. Now that's something that would be amazing to see.

*Norwegian nationalists releasing Norway aside. I really think nationalist rebellions should be toned way the gently caress down early in the game, especially for the same culture group. And by toned down I mean basically not really being a thing. (For same culture group) Only if there are religious differences as well should they really come into play in a stable country.

Orange Devil posted:

Oh how mad I will be if it turns out it's horribly broken somehow.

Wiz would tell us if it was. Goons before dishonor.

# ? Jul 25, 2013 12:58

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