|
plushpuffin posted:how many people would it require, and how many would die during construction? See this is the kicker. I feel like modern people would have to give up and abandon the project without a ready supply of expendable slave labor/poor people being forced to build it.
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2013 18:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 21:52 |
|
|
plushpuffin posted:The question really should be: how long would it take us to re-create the most sophisticated pyramid with our modern knowledge but using only instruments available to the ancient Egyptians (research time and construction time), how many people would it require, and how many would die during construction? Well we already know all the physics and engineering stuff to determine how to build it properly. Restricting it to ancient tools merely means stuff takes longer to get cut and moved. Plus we have the advantage of not mostly building and designing outside the farming times of year. We are still talking about just cutting the right shaped blocks and hauling them to the right place. The drudge work of that is what would take the most time by far.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2013 18:53
|
|
|
Install Gentoo posted:We are still talking about just cutting the right shaped blocks and hauling them to the right place. The drudge work of that is what would take the most time by far. Edit: Google says I'm wrong, the stones themselves were curved to match the planet's surface. Can someone shed light on this? physeter fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Jul 24, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2013 19:05
|
|
|
Install Gentoo posted:Well we already know all the physics and engineering stuff to determine how to build it properly. Restricting it to ancient tools merely means stuff takes longer to get cut and moved. Plus we have the advantage of not mostly building and designing outside the farming times of year. We know the science, but we don't know the "engineering stuff" to accomplish such a feat with only ancient tools. We would have to re-discover those skills. That's what this whole debate was about; it's not like we've gotten weaker or dumber since those times. Lack of skill and familiarity with ancient tools, the "drudge work" involved, and the human and material cost is like 99.9% of the problem here.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2013 19:14
|
|
|
plushpuffin posted:We know the science, but we don't know the "engineering stuff" to accomplish such a feat with only ancient tools. We would have to re-discover those skills. That's what this whole debate was about; it's not like we've gotten weaker or dumber since those times. No, we actually do know how to whack at blocks with stone and bronze tools to shape them. We also know how to move the stuff. That we don't know the precise methods they used at every step of the way isn't an impediment to "using the knowledge we have now, and primitive tools, can we make stuff that looks the same?".
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2013 19:50
|
|
|
I don't understand what all this fuss about the Pyramids is. Everyone knows the aliens built them, right?
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2013 19:57
|
|
|
Install Gentoo posted:No, we actually do know how to whack at blocks with stone and bronze tools to shape them. We also know how to move the stuff. That we don't know the precise methods they used at every step of the way isn't an impediment to "using the knowledge we have now, and primitive tools, can we make stuff that looks the same?". What you're describing involves a lot of skills that we've lost because they're irrelevant to us now. This isn't some strategy game on the PC where you learn something once and you know it forever, and you can't just whack at a block of stone using a bronze hammer and get a perfect rectangular prism with the same dimensions as a thousand others, then lay them out in a perfect grid and put a thousand more on top of them in a perfect grid without some pretty impressive experience and organization. I don't understand why this has to be repeated: we're not saying it would take us centuries or that we couldn't do it. We're saying that it would take a couple of years at least just to figure out how to do it with primitive tools.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2013 20:07
|
|
|
Pretty sure the aliens used cutting lasers and tractor beams so we can use power tools and trucks and cranes.plushpuffin posted:I don't understand why this has to be repeated: we're not saying it would take us centuries or that we couldn't do it. We're saying that it would take a couple of years at least just to figure out how to do it with primitive tools. Nobody is arguing against this. This argument happened because someone posted this; quote:I am sure modern man could figure it out, but we could not do it today. The poster meant this literally, as in despite all the technology we could not complete a pyramid before tomorrow or in a few months. Obviously everyone assumed he meant 'today' in the colloquial sense because that it can't be done right now is obvious. Namarrgon fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Jul 24, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2013 20:14
|
|
|
plushpuffin posted:What you're describing involves a lot of skills that we've lost because they're irrelevant to us now. This isn't some strategy game on the PC where you learn something once and you know it forever, and you can't just whack at a block of stone using a bronze hammer and get a perfect rectangular prism with the same dimensions as a thousand others, then lay them out in a perfect grid and put a thousand more on top of them in a perfect grid without some pretty impressive experience and organization. People, today, do in fact know how to carve out large stone blocks with hand tools. It also takes a long time to do it. It took the Egyptians a long time to do it too. It's time consuming work, it's not impossible work, it doesn't even need us to reinvent anything. We know how to organize people. The pyramids are not built to perfect dimensions, nor are all the blocks perfect. We know how to shape stone with basic tools. It is straight up already known. You're making the mistake in thinking that there's something special going on that we need to know to replicate it. And that somehow no one knows how to carve and split up stone to high quality with simple tools today. Neither of those things are true.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2013 20:41
|
|
|
This masonry discussion is fascinating. Erich von Daniken will be along any minute now, I'm sure. Are there specific origins for the different types of execution used by the Romans? Are they religious? Strangling a guy in his jail cell seems practical, but I wonder why they needed a device for it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2013 20:44
|
|
|
Install Gentoo posted:People, today, do in fact know how to carve out large stone blocks with hand tools. It also takes a long time to do it. It took the Egyptians a long time to do it too. It's time consuming work, it's not impossible work, it doesn't even need us to reinvent anything. We know how to organize people. The pyramids are not built to perfect dimensions, nor are all the blocks perfect. We know how to shape stone with basic tools. It is straight up already known.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2013 21:07
|
|
|
Namarrgon posted:The poster meant this literally, as in despite all the technology we could not complete a pyramid before tomorrow or in a few months. Obviously everyone assumed he meant 'today' in the colloquial sense because that it can't be done right now is obvious. He didn't mean it literally, he meant "today" as in "we couldn't start right now and do it well or at all, we would need to do some prep work and research and probably some trial and error attempts first". He was just unclear in his first post, a bit too absolutist in second post, but he cleared it up in his third post. I knew what he meant and I didn't take him as literally as some others did, who immediately jumped on him for making an "ancient knowledge" argument. I'm not making that argument, either, just saying that if we tried to make a sophisticated pyramid without using CAD or modern tools, our first attempt or three would probably suck. It's not just "carve a block and put it somewhere" repeated X times, but the whole organizational structure and process that we would have to learn how to do to a certain standard of quality, speed, and safety with sub-par tools. We would probably learn from our mistakes a lot faster than they did, but we would also have the benefit of a society with much greater productive capacity, as well as better health and nutrition and greater scientific knowledge. Also, I knew I shouldn't have said "perfect" with regard to the shape and placement of the stones, considering I was arguing with a bunch of pedants.  I apologize, and I'll end this derail now. plushpuffin fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jul 24, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2013 22:49
|
|
|
Was the Macedonian army under Philip and later Alexander a standing army? Since seeing how often Philip was campaigning and the fact that he campaigned several times during the winter it seems unlikely that his forces would consist of temporary soldiers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2013 22:52
|
|
|
How did the transition from late empire to feudalism work?
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2013 22:54
|
|
|
Lord Tywin posted:Was the Macedonian army under Philip and later Alexander a standing army? Since seeing how often Philip was campaigning and the fact that he campaigned several times during the winter it seems unlikely that his forces would consist of temporary soldiers. There was a standing army core, along with a bunch of mercenaries+auxiliaries (especially from Illyrian, Pannonian, Paeonian and Thracian tribes that Philip and Alexander had beaten in battle, a common treaty condition was that these tribes would provide troops for a particular campaign - just so happened that Alexander's campaign went on for about a decade.) karl fungus posted:How did the transition from late empire to feudalism work? Very haphazardly, and not at the same rate throughout the Empire - for instance in the Eastern regions, imperial administration continued long after the Western Roman Empire fell. In many cases, it was started by a growing trend of political elites avoiding the large cities and preferring to do business in their Villas in the countryside - leading to power becoming dispersed across many smaller regions instead of being consolidated in fewer larger regions. In these villas, the basic fundamentals of the landlord controlling the farmers around him and creating local private armies to enforce his will would slowly develop into feudalism. I'm not exactly sure why the political elites started abandoning cities for their villas in the first place, though. AdjectiveNoun fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Jul 24, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2013 22:59
|
|
|
plushpuffin posted:He didn't mean it literally, he meant "today" as in "we couldn't start right now and do it well or at all, we would need to do some prep work and research and probably some trial and error attempts first". He was just unclear in his first post, a bit too absolutist in second post, but he cleared it up in his third post. But it's not like the Ancient Egyptians had that knowledge either. Pyramids were essentially a one in a generation thing, every pyramid would have had a similar prep time to what you are describing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 00:12
|
|
|
karl fungus posted:How did the transition from late empire to feudalism work? The upper class could only respectably make money off the ownership of land. Over time the rich got richer and the poor got poorer. Small-scale farms were bought up one after another by the large landowners. Also the legal system increasingly tied poorer people to their land or their occupations. The giant estates actually ran out of slaves to work their fields, so they turned the free Roman citizens into semi-slaves, coloni, with the ready help of the government. These giant estates quite often survived intact into barbarian rule, as did the legal system.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 00:26
|
|
|
The modern-man-made Great Pyramid would make a great base for GBH.
Hogge Wild fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Jul 25, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 06:26
|
|
|
Alchenar posted:But it's not like the Ancient Egyptians had that knowledge either. Pyramids were essentially a one in a generation thing, every pyramid would have had a similar prep time to what you are describing. Even one pyramid per generation would have allowed royal engineers to supervise the construction of a few and pass their knowledge on to their apprentices.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 11:51
|
|
|
Lets just shut the gently caress up about the pyramids, because I'm sure we all agree on this; *There was no magic knowledge in the sense that we physically couldn't make one right now. *This would be a time-consuming, expensive enterprise. So instead of arguing whether it would take us 10 or 20 years maybe someone can tell me about Byzantine clothing. I know the role clothing plays in social hierarchy in an age before large databases where people can just look up your identity, so is it true that red shoes were limited to the Eastern Imperial couple and the Patriarch?
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 13:27
|
|
|
Namarrgon posted:Lets just shut the gently caress up about the pyramids, because I'm sure we all agree on this; This. I was excited when I saw there were 40 new posts in this thread only to hop in and find it's nothing but nerds arguing semantics over some ancient aliens level dumb bullshit. Goons.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 14:08
|
|
|
Namarrgon posted:So instead of arguing whether it would take us 10 or 20 years maybe someone can tell me about Byzantine clothing. I know the role clothing plays in social hierarchy in an age before large databases where people can just look up your identity, so is it true that red shoes were limited to the Eastern Imperial couple and the Patriarch? If I remember right, ways to make cheaper red and purple dye were developed towards the latter part of the Byzantine's rule. Purple and a certain shade of red had both only been possible to make for clothing-suitable dye in a certain expensive and rare way, hence why they were reserved for high-ranking people originally. Once ways to make them without that were developed, the new dyes were much more common and it lost a lot of its prestige, so it became ok for common folk to wear it. But I believe it would still be considered rude or presumptuous to go to an official government function or get an audience with the Emperor or the Patriarch if you were wearing purple or that one shade of red. Trying to think of what would be an equivalent faux pas today - perhaps meeting with the General on your local army base and you have on a replica of a high-ranking officer's uniform despite not actually being one? Or going to meet the Archbishop of the local Catholic Archdiocese and you got full bishop regalia going on despite being a lay person.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 16:05
|
|
|
Install Gentoo posted:If I remember right, ways to make cheaper red and purple dye were developed towards the latter part of the Byzantine's rule. Purple and a certain shade of red had both only been possible to make for clothing-suitable dye in a certain expensive and rare way, hence why they were reserved for high-ranking people originally. Once ways to make them without that were developed, the new dyes were much more common and it lost a lot of its prestige, so it became ok for common folk to wear it. I had been under the belief that it was more like blaspheming Dear Leader by making His Purple Dye seem anything but His. Like, once the place got deep into the imperial godhood stuff (Elagabalus notwithstanding) a la Pre-Meiji Imperial Japan if you went around wearing purple robes and you weren't a Caesar or Augustus, you got dragged in before the Caesar or Augustus so you can apologize before the Praetorian Guard turns you into kibble for the hounds. Is that the case, or was it just more of a "I have a JD so call me Doctor" kind of overreach?
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 16:45
|
|
|
So I'd like to know about roman inheritance law and landownership. E.g. if your dad is a roman landowner and you're the firstborn of let's say, 3 of his children - does the land get divided in equal parts or does the firstborn inherit all?
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 18:12
|
|
|
The Entire Universe posted:I had been under the belief that it was more like blaspheming Dear Leader by making His Purple Dye seem anything but His. Like, once the place got deep into the imperial godhood stuff (Elagabalus notwithstanding) a la Pre-Meiji Imperial Japan if you went around wearing purple robes and you weren't a Caesar or Augustus, you got dragged in before the Caesar or Augustus so you can apologize before the Praetorian Guard turns you into kibble for the hounds. It was definitely that way in the older days. Wearing purple dyed clothes without the explicit authorization from the emperor, at any time? Pretty much amounted to treason. But over the centuries the empire lasted, once you get to the late stages of the Byzantine period, new ways to make dyes of the special color happened, and it became less degraded in value. You still would not wear the special colors if you were doing any sort of special business, and certainly not if you were to be in presence of the high officials. That's why I bring up wearing a false uniform to meet a military official, or an unearned clerical outfit to meet a high religous official. Not exactly something you'd get arrested for but boy you'd be pissing off powerful people big time, and if you were there to ask something they were going to refuse it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 18:23
|
|
|
Install Gentoo posted:It was definitely that way in the older days. Wearing purple dyed clothes without the explicit authorization from the emperor, at any time? Pretty much amounted to treason. But over the centuries the empire lasted, once you get to the late stages of the Byzantine period, new ways to make dyes of the special color happened, and it became less degraded in value. You still would not wear the special colors if you were doing any sort of special business, and certainly not if you were to be in presence of the high officials. How easy did imposters have it? Cause it seems like it would be relatively simple to kill an official on their way to a new duty station and become them. Any known historical accounts of this happening?
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 20:01
|
|
|
Tacitus has a story about a guy who impersonated the Emperor Nero after Nero's suicide, gathered some army deserters, and became a pirate. (Nero's death wasn't witnessed directly and he was denied burial with the other Julio-Claudian emperors, so presumably there were conspiracy theories that he wasn't really dead and would one day return, which allowed the fake Nero to be plausible - a bit like the theories that the US didn't really kill Osama bin Laden.)
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 20:27
|
|
|
Litmus Test posted:How easy did imposters have it? Cause it seems like it would be relatively simple to kill an official on their way to a new duty station and become them. Any known historical accounts of this happening? That thought has crossed my mind. Before the age of photography i always imagined such a scenario. There was a famous Prussian vagrant in the 19th century who managed to impersonate an officer and due to the militarism of Prussia managed to convince a troop of soldiers long enough to arrest the major of his town and seize some of his money. I forget his name, and it is far from Antiquity, but if he pulled off, maybe there's hope that some Roman dude did too.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 21:05
|
|
|
Falukorv posted:That thought has crossed my mind. Before the age of photography i always imagined such a scenario. And in the 18th century, some dude took control of Montenegro by pretending he was Peter the Third of Russia. How did ancient Romans prevent stuff like this from happening?
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 21:29
|
|
|
my dad posted:How did ancient Romans prevent stuff like this from happening? I'd wager they didn't and officials got 'replaced' from time to time. I mean it still happens in modern times even. Even with our systems people get lazy and don't always check the references. Imagine if there were not references.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 21:33
|
|
|
Something to remember is that a lot of important places, people really did know everyone else around. It'd be hard to impersonate a Roman Senator who was staying in Rome all the time, the other guys would catch on pretty quick. Of course, it'd go out the window if someone from Rome was being sent out to a province to fill some important position, and he'd never previously met anyone at his destination. A sufficiently cunning impostor could likely track down and kill the real one on his way to there and take up any of his identification and stuff - he'd have to hope though that the real guy wasn't going to be called back anytime soon.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 21:59
|
|
|
Falukorv posted:There was a famous Prussian vagrant in the 19th century who managed to impersonate an officer and due to the militarism of Prussia managed to convince a troop of soldiers long enough to arrest the major of his town and seize some of his money. Early 20th century: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Voigt
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 22:03
|
|
|
well to do it you'd have to: -know whats going on in the government local government (so you'd know who/where to ambush and where they're going and enough about them to lie) -know how to talk/look/act like an upper crust Roman -be rich enough to look/act like an upper crust Roman -know enough about where you're going to fit in once you arrive. at that point... i dunno you probably have something better to do. I guess it might work if you were like a regular soldier and figured out how to impersonate a centurion or something.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 22:32
|
|
|
Falukorv posted:That thought has crossed my mind. Before the age of photography i always imagined such a scenario. You mean this guy here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Voigt The play is on tv every year at least once.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2013 23:08
|
|
|
Here's some Roman humor!  http://www.stoa.org/diotima/anthology/quinn_jokes.shtml #234. A man with bad breath asked his wife: "Madame, why do you hate me?" And she said in reply: "Because you love me." Also, #45. An intellectual during the night ravished his grandmother and for this got a beating from his father. He complained: "You've been mounting my mother for a long time, without suffering any consequences from me. And now you're mad that you found me screwing your mother for the first time ever!" 
karl fungus fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Jul 26, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2013 05:16
|
|
|
These are great, and are another fantastic reminder of how ancient people and modern people are pretty much identical.quote:An intellectual got a slave pregnant. At the birth, his father suggested that the child be killed. The intellectual replied: "First murder your own children and then tell me to kill mine." 
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2013 05:26
|
|
|
I doubt it would be easy to impersonate someone. You'd have to avoid everyone who knew them, and even someone far away might notice something is up from a sudden change in writing style in letters or whatever. If you weren't trying to be someone specific - say, you were pretending to have a citizenship when you didn't - that might have been easier, but I don't know what kind of records you would be expected to have or if there was a way for a suspicious person to look up your naturalization records in an official archive or something.Install Gentoo posted:It was definitely that way in the older days. Wearing purple dyed clothes without the explicit authorization from the emperor, at any time? Pretty much amounted to treason. But over the centuries the empire lasted, once you get to the late stages of the Byzantine period, new ways to make dyes of the special color happened, and it became less degraded in value. You still would not wear the special colors if you were doing any sort of special business, and certainly not if you were to be in presence of the high officials. Yeah, I don't know about later on, but at least prior to the fall of the West a purple cloak was the badge of the imperial office, so wearing one was essentially declaring yourself to be emperor. It would be like putting a crown on your head. I forget who, but I know one of the various emperors of the third century declared his intention to rebel against the sitting emperor by excusing himself from a dinner party, and returning a few minutes later wearing purple. And near the end of the West, the East indicated its acceptance of a particular Western usurper (again, I forget who  ) by sending him a purple cloak.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2013 13:48
|
|
|
Third Murderer posted:And near the end of the West, the East indicated its acceptance of a particular Western usurper (again, I forget who I believe that was Constantine III, who was later captured and executed by Constantius III, which I have to admit left me a little confused as I was trying to make sense of the clusterfuck of the early 5th Century Western Empire. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Jul 27, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2013 01:00
|
|
|
Hi I'm Constantine, have you met my dad Constantine, my grand-dad Constantius Chlorous, my brothers Constantius, Constans and Crispus oh and my Sister Constantia? Family introductions must have been a right ball-ache. Cast_No_Shadow fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Jul 27, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2013 01:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 21:52 |
|
|
Cast_No_Shadow posted:Hi I'm Constantine, have you met my dad Constantine, my grand-dad Constantius Chlorous, my brothers Constantius, Constans and Crispus oh and my Sister Constantia. Caligula: Hi, I'm Gaius Julius Caesar, my father was the adopted son of Gaius Julius Caesar, who was in turn the adopted son of Gaius Julius Caesar, whose father was Gaius Julius Caesar, and HIS father was Gaius Julius Caesar.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2013 01:13
|
|