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Vanrushal posted:For missile assist, how about the missiles do their normal damage (or even reduce that a bit, idk) but they just don't apply hitstun to the point character if Doom gets hit? They would still be a deterrent to a degree, but wouldn't be a combo breaker that leads to a combo for whoever called them. Should this also apply to point missiles? Would this idea actually change anything? In the vast majority of situations the damage those missiles would do is irrelevant, it isn't going to make the difference between a character living or dying when they get comboed except in a very small number of corner cases. So this change would have all the same problems as the "missiles go away when Doom is hit" solution.
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Jul 24, 2013 01:17
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kaujot posted:Here are Viscant's proposed changes to Marvel. Interesting read. As usual pretty well thought out stuff from Viscant. He brings up the most important thing for me before he even goes into what changes he would make. The need to avoid making sweeping changes just so Marvel is fresh and exciting again rather than just refining the game that it is.
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Jul 24, 2013 15:12
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Viscant didn't propose any changes to Taskmaster. Sorry to see.
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Jul 24, 2013 16:05
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:Viscant didn't propose any changes to Taskmaster. Sorry to see. He doesn't need any changes.
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Jul 24, 2013 16:10
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I really really like reading what Viscant has to say about this game. I wish I had an understanding of any game as deep as Viscant has an understanding of Marvel 3.
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Jul 24, 2013 19:08
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Sade posted:I really really like reading what Viscant has to say about this game. I wish I had an understanding of any game as deep as Viscant has an understanding of Marvel 3. Honestly, some parts of it are super insightful but some things just sort of come out of nowhere and show that he doesn't really understand how the game is currently played. I mean, he's somehow still complaining about Wesker's -1 launcher when the best Wesker players barely even use that move in combos any more.
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Jul 24, 2013 19:14
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Brett824 posted:Honestly, some parts of it are super insightful but some things just sort of come out of nowhere and show that he doesn't really understand how the game is currently played. I mean, he's somehow still complaining about Wesker's -1 launcher when the best Wesker players barely even use that move in combos any more. He complains that it's boring design not that it's particularly good.
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Jul 24, 2013 19:47
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Fellblade posted:He complains that it's boring design not that it's particularly good. But it's not relevant design. The move is already not used, making it worse would make it even less used. Doom's launcher is -1 and hits behind him, and all his normals are dash cancel able and he didn't complain about that either. It's just a thing that isn't really worth talking about in this stage of the game's lifespan. Changing it would do absolutely nothing to the character at a high-ish level.
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Jul 24, 2013 20:01
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He also complained about Dark Phoenix's air d.H not ground-bouncing - which is really hardly a thing to complain about and certainly not an option Dark Phoenix needs to be viable.
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Jul 24, 2013 20:18
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Super Rad posted:He also complained about Dark Phoenix's air d.H not ground-bouncing - which is really hardly a thing to complain about and certainly not an option Dark Phoenix needs to be viable. I know I'm probably coming off as a bit of an apologist for it but whatever, this and the wesker S and other similar stuff is about cleaning up the lack of design focus which is the issue with the majority of 'low tier' characters. It's not about fixing balance particularly, it's about making characters fit their intended roles.
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Jul 24, 2013 20:29
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The question is, is balancing strictly for pro-level play sufficient? It is obviously important. The public face of the game-high-level streaming and major tournaments-is important for bringing in new players and influencing which characters/teams those players will be attracted to. However, I think it's safe to assume there are more casual Marvel players overall, so it isn't the wisest decision to completely neglect aspects of the game just because they might not be relevant with regards to elite gameplay.
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Jul 24, 2013 22:26
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Fellblade posted:I know I'm probably coming off as a bit of an apologist for it but whatever, this and the wesker S and other similar stuff is about cleaning up the lack of design focus which is the issue with the majority of 'low tier' characters. It's not about fixing balance particularly, it's about making characters fit their intended roles. How does 3 extra recovery frames/3 less blockstun frames change the way Wesker fits his intended role? Yes, a lot of weaker characters need a more focused design, more stuff that makes them unique and just generally a reason to actually pick them but I don't think that's relevant in the discussion of weird changes he wants for Wesker or Phoenix or other characters that are pretty alright right now. I can understand Phoenix's air 2H being changed just as a quality of life thing, but I don't understand still talking about Wesker's S or some of the stuff he says about Frank or etc. I think his understanding and the way he presents problems with the system is amazing, but I think some of the character stuff isn't particularly representative of the current competitive state of the game.
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Jul 24, 2013 22:39
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Arrowsmith posted:The question is, is balancing strictly for pro-level play sufficient? It is obviously important. The public face of the game-high-level streaming and major tournaments-is important for bringing in new players and influencing which characters/teams those players will be attracted to. However, I think it's safe to assume there are more casual Marvel players overall, so it isn't the wisest decision to completely neglect aspects of the game just because they might not be relevant with regards to elite gameplay. There are plenty of people who never play in tournaments or against live human beings but wouldn't play if it wasn't being played on big stages on streams. Balancing the game is balancing it for "Pro-level play." There were ~1300+ competitors at Evo 2013. 99% of the time games are balanced with new players in mind that is just a euphemism for nerfing a zoning character that is the subject of alot of twitter rage.
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Jul 24, 2013 22:43
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Arrowsmith posted:The question is, is balancing strictly for pro-level play sufficient? It is obviously important. The public face of the game-high-level streaming and major tournaments-is important for bringing in new players and influencing which characters/teams those players will be attracted to. However, I think it's safe to assume there are more casual Marvel players overall, so it isn't the wisest decision to completely neglect aspects of the game just because they might not be relevant with regards to elite gameplay. Competitive games should always be balanced for high level play, no exceptions. That defines what the game is, how it is played when truly understood. Scaling nicely so that low level players can emulate high level ones and not get destroyed by random stuff that doesn't really work is a nice to have, but should be a secondary objective. The former should never be compromised for the sake of the latter. This is from a game design perspective. I make no comment about good business sense. If every company wants to league of legends their games because they think it's good business, they can be my guest.
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Jul 24, 2013 22:48
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Arrowsmith posted:The question is, is balancing strictly for pro-level play sufficient? It is obviously important. The public face of the game-high-level streaming and major tournaments-is important for bringing in new players and influencing which characters/teams those players will be attracted to. However, I think it's safe to assume there are more casual Marvel players overall, so it isn't the wisest decision to completely neglect aspects of the game just because they might not be relevant with regards to elite gameplay. Balance, and ease of approach for a casual audience, aren't really related at all. One is about making sure the game plays well at the highest levels, the other is simply about making sure that the game isn't anymore difficult to play than it needs to be. And as a bonus higher level play can benefit from the game being easier to play overall. Note: I've said easier, not simpler, they aren't the same at all.
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Jul 24, 2013 22:57
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I agree with everything you are all saying. I'm not promoting "ease of approach" or anything like that, more along the lines of viability, which many people have listed as a strength of 3. Then again, as has been said, 3 is lacking in maturity (compared to, say, 10-year-old Marvel 2) in tech development. Maybe the lack of seriousness about the game at top levels means we will never find out if "garbage" characters/teams are truly viable in the right hands. Attention to rebalancing unused characters can spur looking into them with fresh eyes, which I think is good for the long term health of the game. You can't change so much that the game isn't Marvel 3 anymore, as much as I would like the game to be a refreshed Marvel 2 with a greater number of viable characters, but encouraging more Shumas and the like at major tournaments is something many of us would appreciate. Maybe there will be no patch and we will have to wait for Marvel 4 and start from scratch. That's fine too. Until then we just have to appreciate 3 for what it is. If minor nerfs to Vergil/missiles et al. keep the scene going then I'm happy with that.
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Jul 24, 2013 23:16
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Jmcrofts posted:He doesn't need any changes. He should be able to block in the air after shooting arrows 
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Jul 25, 2013 19:39
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:He should be able to block in the air after shooting arrows He doesn't really need it though. The only characters who are significantly stronger than Task are the ones who are in need of major nerfs anyway (Vergil, Zero, Viper, anyone+doom) E: Reminder that Arthur can't do any actions after an air projectile. Check your privilege.
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Jul 25, 2013 19:44
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Jmcrofts posted:He doesn't really need it though. The only characters who are significantly stronger than Task are the ones who are in need of major nerfs anyway (Vergil, Zero, Viper, anyone+doom) But Vergil recovers from throwing his Round Trip in the air immediately and no one's proposed nerfing that, Trish too, Morrigan obviously, a few others. Also his projectile counter should have less recovery. I'm all for Taskmaster being the new Vergil.
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Jul 25, 2013 21:21
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Vergil's round trip has many limits to its usage that Taskmaster's arrows don't have, RT glitch nonwithstanding (it must be charged up, can never have more than 1 out at once). Morrigan and Trish are mostly zoners and a large part of their gameplan is getting above you and throwing projectiles down, they need it. Taskmaster is a very well-balanced character who is capable of rushing down and zoning, and he isn't overpowered at either. He should be left alone.
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Jul 25, 2013 21:29
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Give Taskmaster ammy's counters.
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Jul 26, 2013 00:40
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Let Task continue a combo after his super counter just like Wesker
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Jul 26, 2013 02:42
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Kuvo posted:Let Task continue a combo after his super counter just like Wesker https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqQ3qDt6O_Y
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Jul 26, 2013 05:46
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I think he means solo without an OTG
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Jul 26, 2013 12:21
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Give Taskmaster web zips and also air ok shield slash command normal with f+m that is cancelable into arrows and also rekkas from his unblockable string that are both overhead and low depending on what followup you do But really nah he's fine, he just gets poo poo on by Morrigan and Vergil. I just want a style level 3 for him because there's a lot of possibilities you could do animation-wise. Oh also I guess making it so his counters are worth a drat would help a bit. Increase the hard KD time on his physical counters so he can actually do stuff of 'em and make the projectile counter followup fully invincible from start to recovery so it has like an actual use. Also I refuse to chill out because I enjoy the game alot and I'd like to enjoy it more! edit: I really don't trust any single top player's "balance list" for characters because I am a paranoid maniac and think their biases are the absolute worst and often either make no sense or really reek of "I want to preserve the status quo" rather than actually seeking to balance the game towards somethin' less braindead. Regarding making Wesker's launcher -4 on block, there's actually a pretty significant change in that you wouldn't be able to use it as an anti-air anymore when that's like one of his most consistent ones because blocking it in the air would mean a free punish most of the time. Trish's H/S have similar frame data (I can't recall which one) and definitely can be mashed on to punish if blocked- especially since Wesker's S doesn't have a giant sword hitbox on it. also sorry walrus, I didn't accept your invite whenever earlier this week because I was tryin' to fix up my stick because it is haunted Fereydun fucked around with this message at 13:05 on Jul 26, 2013 |
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Jul 26, 2013 12:30
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itskage posted:Hulk resets made me wonder. Can you option select forward/backward air H+S for a tech/throw or S? So like hulk gets S or throw, Morrigan gets shell kick or throw, etc? I had a chance to test this and no it does not. You do your s move in throw range which is actually pretty bad.
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Jul 26, 2013 19:25
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Viper absolutely should not be nerfed. Saying Viper needs to be nerfed is like saying Haggar or Hulk should be nerfed.
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Jul 26, 2013 21:52
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Except for Viper being good. (Still shouldn't be nerfed, though.)
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Jul 26, 2013 21:54
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itskage posted:I had a chance to test this and no it does not. You do your s move in throw range which is actually pretty bad. What if you plink from H to S instead of just hitting them both? Are marvel throws 1 frame?
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Jul 26, 2013 21:54
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:But Vergil recovers from throwing his Round Trip in the air immediately and no one's proposed nerfing that, Trish too, Morrigan obviously, a few others. Also his projectile counter should have less recovery. I'm all for Taskmaster being the new Vergil. Trish round trip is slow and has low durability, if she didn't have that it would not be very viable in controlling space. Jeffrey posted:What if you plink from H to S instead of just hitting them both? Are marvel throws 1 frame? Yes they are. Morrigan can OS her command throw with fly + anything, but I don't think anyone can do regular throw with launcher. Nodoze fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Jul 28, 2013 |
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Jul 28, 2013 16:07
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What do you think about Spider-man? Does he need any changes, or is it more a question of the top tier holding him down?
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Jul 30, 2013 09:36
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There is literally nothing Spider-Man does that Spencer doesn't do better. Except guard break gimmicks. I have no idea where to even begin changing this because Spidey's a really extreme precision character who loses to anyone with a projectile in the same way Spencer would if his grapple move was 1 durability and he didn't have bionic arm.
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Jul 30, 2013 09:48
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Isn't that a thing that could be improved then; decrease his need for precision? I'll admit I'm not a spider-man player, but it seems like combo-drops are fairly common with him. Would added hitstun on some of his moves be a help?
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Jul 30, 2013 12:10
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Fereydun posted:There is literally nothing Spider-Man does that Spencer doesn't do better. Weirdly, he has a better matchup with Phoenix than Spencer, but Spencer fights her well too.
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Jul 31, 2013 14:28
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Do you guys actively play online still? Haven't played in a few months, but getting an itch to play some Wolverine/drones 
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Jul 31, 2013 17:48
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Fereydun posted:There is literally nothing Spider-Man does that Spencer doesn't do better. I don't know about this. Spiderman is kind of my second/third main behind Magneto/ Viper. He's definitely not Top Tier, but I feel like he beats Spencers. Air Web Ball is a good, annoying projectile. SM has considerably more air mobility and what is essentially the ability to air dash block. Spider Assault, or whatever it's called beats Bionic Arm. And Spidey has those dirty Web Grab HC set-ups. He may not outright beat Spencer, but I think the two are at least more or less even. I think my SM is pretty good, and I play him on a pretty lovely team(s) (SM, Cap, Hawkeye or SM, Cap, IM). I can only imagine how much better he is on a good team.
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Jul 31, 2013 20:48
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Fereydun posted:There is literally nothing Spider-Man does that Spencer doesn't do better. What about whatever a spider can? Like for example, spinning a web--any size?
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Jul 31, 2013 22:39
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Dectilon posted:Would added hitstun on some of his moves be a help? Hitstun isn't the problem, it's more to do with his moves bouncing/pushing too munch, and also some of his normals not having enough reach. All easily fixed, really. If the top tier gets nerfed though I'm not sure Spidey should really get buffs. He's been "secret top tier" for a while now, and has that DHC tech that can only be escaped by x-factor or invincible air hypers. He does plenty of damage too, if you can pull them combos off.
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Aug 1, 2013 00:33
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Super Rad posted:Hitstun isn't the problem, it's more to do with his moves bouncing/pushing too munch, and also some of his normals not having enough reach. This, especially the latter, is a huge problem when learning him as magic series and most "normal" combos don't actually work. He has to do extra bullshit like Spider Stings and whatnot which scale his damage and hitstun pretty horribly in time.
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Aug 1, 2013 01:43
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Just got bopped on Spooky's stream. Shout outs to goons, y'all.
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Aug 8, 2013 01:49
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