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I guess I mean without Yojimbo. The main issues with FFX maxing are speedrunning the normal game, having a good monster capture route, optimizing the initial Monster Arena boss battle orders, and getting money for clear spheres and 4 slot armors (you need several sets). Grinding Don Tonberry isn't the hard part, it's quickly getting to when you *can* grind him, and quickly getting the spheres to use all that AP.
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Jul 27, 2013 23:55
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I don't normally like to wish ill on people but Toriyama needs to be demoted or something, anything that will get him out of a lead role. http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/07/27/more-information-on-lightnings-boob-job-in-lightning-returns-ffxiii-emerge-yes-theyll-jiggle/
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Jul 28, 2013 00:11
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Overbite posted:I don't normally like to wish ill on people but Toriyama needs to be demoted or something, anything that will get him out of a lead role. One of the comments actually says "it's more realistic" I hate video games fandom so much.
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Jul 28, 2013 00:17
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god dammit why
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Jul 28, 2013 00:17
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Overbite posted:I don't normally like to wish ill on people but Toriyama needs to be demoted or something, anything that will get him out of a lead role. Jesus loving Christ, Square-Enix.
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Jul 28, 2013 00:19
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Overbite posted:I don't normally like to wish ill on people but Toriyama needs to be demoted or something, anything that will get him out of a lead role. What in the gently caress... Also, does anyone know the expected price for the FFX release?
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Jul 28, 2013 00:26
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Video games.
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Jul 28, 2013 00:31
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Let's all join hands and thank our deity/indifferent universal force of choice that Toriyama apparently is not involved with FFXV.
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Jul 28, 2013 00:44
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I would be more offended if there wasn't already a precedent for Japanese game devs talking about boob physics. See: Dead or Alive series.
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Jul 28, 2013 00:51
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Azure_Horizon posted:I would be more offended if there wasn't already a precedent for Japanese game devs talking about boob physics. See: Dead or Alive series. There is precedent for this particular developer being a massive creepo. (See: The Third Birthday.) That doesn't suddenly make it less creepy when he opens his mouth and does it again.
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Jul 28, 2013 00:52
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Boobtalk may have been done already, but I think pre-release tips for optimal jiggle in the equip menu is a new low.
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Jul 28, 2013 00:56
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ImpAtom posted:There is precedent for this particular developer being a massive creepo. (See: The Third Birthday.) That doesn't suddenly make it less creepy when he opens his mouth and does it again. I've become more or less indifferent to what Toriyama says anymore. I'm buying Lightning Returns purely for the gameplay and music and whatnot.
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Jul 28, 2013 00:58
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Tempo 119 posted:Boobtalk may have been done already, but I think pre-release tips for optimal jiggle in the equip menu is a new low. Seriously. Square needs to hire a director of "Please at least try to stop sounding so incredibly loving creepy in interviews." It was bad at first, but then he just kept going. What concerns me more is that the interviewer apparently never thought to ask "Uhhh... why exactly was it necessary to do this?" I mean I know the answer would have just been something creepy, but they could have at least asked. The comments in defense of it are also particularly annoying because I doubt (or at least don't want to believe) that there's anyone in there who would have even noticed if it was absent or considered it a deal-breaker if Lightning's boobs weren't bigger and jiggly. I still plan to buy the game since everything else looks fun, but it's annoying that doing so implicitly encourages this stuff. Implied approval vs. basically never playing any video games ever is not exactly a fair choice. Edit: On the very minor plus side, at least they're not doing this to a character who looks like a 12 year old this time. chumbler fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Jul 28, 2013 |
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Jul 28, 2013 01:14
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Bioshock Infinite and Tomb Raider have mild sexualisation of their lead characters, while The Last of Us has none at all, as well as a high percentage of the characters being women. Then this poo poo happens. It's worse than that character in the MGSV trailer wearing a bikini in the desert. Aren't a lot of Final Fantasy's fans women? Then why do they think pandering is going to help the game sell better? E: OK, Azure, give me a canonical reason why Lightning got breast implants and is now into cosplay. Why was she wearing a uniform in the first game, when she's clearly much happier dressed as a cat girl? That Fucking Sned fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Jul 28, 2013 |
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Jul 28, 2013 01:28
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That loving Sned posted:Bioshock Infinite and Tomb Raider have mild sexualisation of their lead characters, while The Last of Us has none at all, as well as a high percentage of the characters being women. I think S-E really just doesn't have any kind of serious oversight in general. Toriyama helped direct FFX and so he basically gets leeway until he produces a true massive bomb which he hasn't yet managed to do.
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Jul 28, 2013 01:32
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WhitemageofDOOM posted:Old Paradigm The fact that the core gameplay of Final Fantasy games is "mindless busywork" and that the best solution is apparently to automate it instead of trying to come up with a way to engage the player speaks volumes. Controlling your characters in combat isn't much but it's like 90% of the player's interaction with the game, and deciding to just automate it is a "whatever, you fucks will buy anything," on par with licensed cash-in games and horse armor DLC. Also, punishing the player for doing more than the default level of playing the game (in this case, navigating the menu rather than using auto-battle) is really poor game design. Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Jul 28, 2013 |
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Jul 28, 2013 02:37
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WhitemageofDOOM posted:Old Paradigm What was wrong with the "old paradigm"? It gave you a sense of progression with magic and you generally had enough variety with your abilities that you didn't have to use the same spells if you didn't want to. FFXIII automates the exact wrong part of the whole process. I would never need to Paradigm Shift in FFVI because I already have all the abilities in one place. Being able to select whatever action I wanted from a list was convenient and allow me to still win battles. Before you say "well you only need two spells to beat VI" yes but a) That's not the point. b) Sure you can, but that's boring. You'd use different abilities and summons just to change it up. I personally used summons, blue magic, throw and martial arts not because I had to, but because I wanted to. XIII takes this ability away from me, or at the very least makes it highly annoying to use, and I dislike it greatly for that.
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Jul 28, 2013 03:10
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SSNeoman posted:What was wrong with the "old paradigm"? It gave you a sense of progression with magic and you generally had enough variety with your abilities that you didn't have to use the same spells if you didn't want to. You have all your skills in one place, but can you execute 18 of them at once?? Edit: Defiance Industries posted:The fact that the core gameplay of Final Fantasy games is "mindless busywork" and that the best solution is apparently to automate it instead of trying to come up with a way to engage the player speaks volumes. Controlling your characters in combat isn't much but it's like 90% of the player's interaction with the game, and deciding to just automate it is a "whatever, you fucks will buy anything," on par with licensed cash-in games and horse armor DLC. Also, punishing the player for doing more than the default level of playing the game (in this case, navigating the menu rather than using auto-battle) is really poor game design. This is some pretty fantastic hyperbole. Tempo 119 fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Jul 28, 2013 |
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Jul 28, 2013 03:31
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FFXIII's rapid-fire battle system put so much loving life into the stale FF battle design. It automated everything I would normally be having to do myself, repeatedly, every turn. I hope it makes a return in a future FF game.
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Jul 28, 2013 04:51
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Azure_Horizon posted:It automated everything I would normally be having to do myself, repeatedly, every turn. But I thought you hated FF12? 
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Jul 28, 2013 04:54
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:But I thought you hated FF12? There's a difference between automating everything, and requiring control on a macro level that isn't boring (Paradigm Shifts constantly per battle).
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Jul 28, 2013 05:06
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Azure_Horizon posted:There's a difference between automating everything, and requiring control on a macro level that isn't boring (Paradigm Shifts constantly per battle). Except FF12 only automates as much as you tell it to automate, so your argument falls a bit flat.
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Jul 28, 2013 05:29
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I like taking more direct control over the combat. Select Attack when you want to attack. That's logical. If going through and picking every single command out of the menu every single time is drudgery, it's because you already know at the beginning of the battle exactly what your tactics are going to be, regardless of what the enemy does. Many Final Fantasy games have the problem where the least interesting strategy (mashing Attack, matching elemental weaknesses to maximize damage) is sufficient, and in fact is pretty close to optimal in most cases. There's no reason why an RPG's encounters have to be designed that way, and in fact many aren't. Gambits and paradigms are interesting ideas, insofar as they turn executing an encounter strategy into a game in its own right. Think of them that way rather than as "solutions" to the problem of trivial encounter design.
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Jul 28, 2013 05:32
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I honestly say that the Auto system in FFD is a pretty happy medium between dumb always attack auto and FFXIII's auto. FFXII was on the right track, but it didn't meet the mark. But at least in that game I could choose how I fight my enemies. FFD honestly had better gameplay than FFXIII. I said it  The biggest problem with FFXII's battle system is the bullshit Paling bosses used. It added nothing but tedium and padding to the fight. Azure_Horizon posted:I would be more offended if there wasn't already a precedent for Japanese game devs talking about boob physics. See: Dead or Alive series. Except this is the Final Fantasy series. A series which has been mostly devoid of such cheap anime bullshit. This actually proves what I was saying earlier. They are doing their hardest to sell Lightning to the lowest common denominator. Is she going to have her own loving anime soon? Cause that's the direction this is headed. VVVV I have no loving clue what Square was thinking. Is Paling an MMO thing? Because when an enemy becomes invincible in an RPG, you just either defend or use that time to heal and throw up buffs. It's RPG gamer 101. Why the hell did they think players would feel tension during this time? Seraphic Neoman fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Jul 28, 2013 |
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Jul 28, 2013 05:55
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SSNeoman posted:The biggest problem with FFXII's battle system is the bullshit Paling bosses used. It added nothing but tedium and padding to the fight. I'll agree with that. I know it was meant to create a "survive and endure while you can't retaliate" tension, but it was just annoying.
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Jul 28, 2013 06:01
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Paradigm works for me where Gambits don't because Paradigms change the, uh, paradigm of combat. The focus goes towards finishing fights as quickly as possible and while it is simplified, it is simplified towards that direction. Every system in the game is designed towards rewarding aggression and keeping passive/defensive as little as possible. It isn't a 'solution' to the problem, it's altering how the game plays. I like the focus on quick aggressive combat, which is also why I enjoy the SMT games and their like. You only have a limited number of options but each is meaningful and each pushes towards a specific goal. Gambits were just automation of an existing system, which is infinitely less interesting to me. It didn't speed things up or change the approach of combat or anything like that. It just automated it. The fact that one of the additions they made to IZJS is a speed-up button kind of underlines the problem there. It automated the combat but it didn't make it faster or alter how you played. It just means you were not hitting buttons instead of hitting buttons. And while you can not automate FFXII, all that does is reveal the flaws of the user interface. The game is designed around gambits to minimize the annoyances of the menu system and user interface. The game was designed to be gambited and it shows if you try not to, while not actually changing the gameplay up in any significant way. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Jul 28, 2013 |
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Jul 28, 2013 06:09
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Kyrosiris posted:Except FF12 only automates as much as you tell it to automate, so your argument falls a bit flat. But if you don't automate it, the game becomes a tedious loving slog and somehow manages to be even slower than previous FF games with spell queues and weapon animations and the fact that even if I'm 20 feet from an enemy, their attack will STILL manage to hit.
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Jul 28, 2013 06:23
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When I played through FFXII I set gambits for two characters and manually controlled the third, which I felt quite happy with. I was still really involved in combat, but it didn't slow down at all like having to control all three would. Played roughly like Dragon Age (or I guess Kingdom Hearts?) that way. It helps that I like the characters and setting in it more than most of the others, but the combat in XII is probably my favorite in the series. Edit: I haven't played X-2 yet though. Just waiting for that HD version. Armor-Piercing fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Jul 28, 2013 |
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Jul 28, 2013 07:02
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SSNeoman posted:What was wrong with the "old paradigm"? It gave you a sense of progression with magic and you generally had enough variety with your abilities that you didn't have to use the same spells if you didn't want to. The old paradigm has always sucked complete poo poo in final fantasies. They have never, ever managed to nail the balance required to make that style of combat interesting, at least to me. Persona 3 and 4 and DQ8 all have, and while I suppose maybe they could have done that in a mainline FF, I don't see much point. There are a million and 1 games with that same tired rear end battle system. The paradigm system was different and frankly, amazing for actually making me invested in most of the fights I got into. Unlike most of the games in the series which could be conquered with a couple of well-placed rubber bands.
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Jul 28, 2013 07:58
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ImpAtom posted:Paradigm works for me where Gambits don't because Paradigms change the, uh, paradigm of combat. The focus goes towards finishing fights as quickly as possible and while it is simplified, it is simplified towards that direction. Every system in the game is designed towards rewarding aggression and keeping passive/defensive as little as possible. It isn't a 'solution' to the problem, it's altering how the game plays. I like the focus on quick aggressive combat, which is also why I enjoy the SMT games and their like. You only have a limited number of options but each is meaningful and each pushes towards a specific goal. But Gambits DID speed things up- your team all acts simultaneously without needing to wait for you to micromanage every action (although you can if you want or need to, which makes a big difference). Most battles are over in seconds. I wouldn't be surprised if XII had the lowest average battle duration in the series (excluding Yiazmat and Hellwyrm...). Meanwhile, for a system focused on "finishing fights as quickly as possible," battles in XIII seem to take a really long time. They clearly wanted to get use out of the Stagger Gauge mechanic, which several of the classes are built around, so a ton of enemies require you to just pound on them for multiple rounds before you can start doing real damage. Basically, the gameplay of FF1-10 focuses on micromanaging individual actions in battle. 12 focuses on micromanaging a general strategy for each member, and manually inputting commands to compensate for unexpected occurrences. 13 focuses on macro-level oversight of battles with issuing general "attack-debuff-heal" commands. I don't see a problem with SE switching things up a bit when it comes to battles after so many extremely similar iterations. It's only right that people start being as wildly divided on battle mechanics as they are about everything else in the series.
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Jul 28, 2013 10:46
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Overbite posted:I don't normally like to wish ill on people but Toriyama needs to be demoted or something, anything that will get him out of a lead role. Now I want this game to bomb just for the chance that Toriyama will get the boot. He should spend his days writing creepy fanfiction for himself not make people pay for his wank fantasies.
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Jul 28, 2013 11:50
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I don't really see how 13's combat system is that much more strategic than the other games in the series, since 90% of battles is basically switching between Commando/Ravager/Ravager and Ravager/Ravager/Ravager (substitute whatever with SAB if you want) depending on the Stagger gauge. Otherwise, you'd start boss battles with SYNs/SABs before switching to an attack-based paradigm, and switch to a MED paradigm if you needed it. It's pretty much like any other FF game, except based much more on timing. Maybe if they had more battles resemble the Eidolon battles, it could've been more strategic and interesting in picking which Paradigms to go with. Though that's still not really that big a deal, as there are plenty of fights where switching between paradigms are fun as hell, when things are tense and you need the right combination to survive or capitalize on a staggered enemy. The problem, just like other FF games, is that those are usually a handful of boss fights, and everything else you're doing the same thing as usual (spamming Fight or a COM/RAV/RAV paradigm) for random encounters. It just stands out a lot more in FF13 because of its completely terrible pacing and a lack of towns/mini-games to break up any monotony. I'm not saying 13's battle system is worse than the others in the series, but I think it still suffers the same flaws as them, though it suffers more from the other flaws 13 has.
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Jul 28, 2013 11:59
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ImpAtom posted:Paradigm works for me where Gambits don't because Paradigms change the, uh, paradigm of combat. The focus goes towards finishing fights as quickly as possible and while it is simplified, it is simplified towards that direction. Every system in the game is designed towards rewarding aggression and keeping passive/defensive as little as possible. It isn't a 'solution' to the problem, it's altering how the game plays. I like the focus on quick aggressive combat, which is also why I enjoy the SMT games and their like. You only have a limited number of options but each is meaningful and each pushes towards a specific goal. Gambits really shine at taking the sting out of the mundane stuff you have to do to survive like buffing. I found it was at its best when I left the buffs to gambits and actively played it like a Final Fantasy game for offense. You are right that it didn't change much from previous entries in that regard but it's still a pretty fun setting, in my opinion so it's worth some interface quirks.
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Jul 28, 2013 12:59
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The main thing about FF13's combat system was that it was trying to encourage you by the star ratings you get post-battle. If you capped your level each time and stuck with full-offense paradigms, most fights were easy to five-star, but certain bigger enemies, particularly on Pulse, required a fair amount of finesse, otherwise you'd find yourself getting stomped flat and quickly having to turtle it, which lent itself to crap ratings. Thing is, you weren't really penalized for getting zero stars -- it wasn't a hard time limit like the Eidolon fights, or the Barthandelus fights...which ruled, by the way. Truly satisfying gameplay caps to both the Coccoon and Pulse sequences. I really, really didn't have any issue with 12 or 13's combat systems, though. 12 made it pretty fun to just run around racking up chain-kills with minimal effort but still required a fair amount of input for boss fights, and 13 took and refined the combat from X-2 by making role shifts party-wide, which absolutely thrilled me at least in concept, because as far as I'm concerned, X-2 had the best incarnation of the ATB that the series has ever had.
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Jul 28, 2013 13:05
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ImpAtom posted:And while you can not automate FFXII, all that does is reveal the flaws of the user interface. The game is designed around gambits to minimize the annoyances of the menu system and user interface. The game was designed to be gambited and it shows if you try not to, while not actually changing the gameplay up in any significant way. I agree with you for the most part, but I think you've kinda fallen into a trap here. Of course they designed it to be gambited, because they know you have gambits! If they didn't include that one system, the rest (hopefully) wouldn't have still been the same - they'd have put some other new angle on it, or at least made it easier to control by yourself. As much as 13 is a "do the normal stuff, as fast as you can" idea, 12 is "do as much stuff as you can, at normal speed". Tempo 119 fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Jul 28, 2013 |
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Jul 28, 2013 13:58
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Mazed posted:The main thing about FF13's combat system was that it was trying to encourage you by the star ratings you get post-battle. If you capped your level each time and stuck with full-offense paradigms, most fights were easy to five-star, but certain bigger enemies, particularly on Pulse, required a fair amount of finesse, otherwise you'd find yourself getting stomped flat and quickly having to turtle it, which lent itself to crap ratings. Thing is, you weren't really penalized for getting zero stars -- it wasn't a hard time limit like the Eidolon fights, or the Barthandelus fights...which ruled, by the way. Truly satisfying gameplay caps to both the Coccoon and Pulse sequences. Yeah, the Barthandelus fights were great, although a lot of people found them frustrating for some reason. I think they required a much more careful approach than the full offensive style used for normal battles. I couldn't stand the Eidolon fights, because even if you knew what to do, you still had a very small amount of leeway to pull it off. There's almost no way that you could both figure out what you're supposed to do, and beat it on your first try. What was really surprising about Pork Lift and wateyad's LP was that wateyad played each battle very conservatively, which meant he got through boss battles just fine, but wasted a lot of time in normal battles. It was painful watching him heal all his party members right at the end of a battle, when the enemy only has a sliver of health left, since the game restores all your health automatically.
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Jul 28, 2013 14:33
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The reason some people found Barthandelus frustrating - or at least the reason I did - is that if you don't have a very strong understanding of the combat system at that point, then it's very likely that his ultimate attack will wipe your party from full health. I went into it not realizing that having a Sentinel in the party boosted the defense of the entire party, so even at max level that attack was an apparently-unavoidable death sentence until I figured that out.
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Jul 28, 2013 16:03
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EDIT: loving forget it, I don't want to derail.
Captain Baal fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Jul 28, 2013 |
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Jul 28, 2013 16:16
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Agreed with SSNeoman, the new remakes of the old FF games and FFD with the option to Auto battles is fantastic, and better than FF13's way of automating things, because I still feel engaged if the enemy suddenly starts murdering my rear end I have the choice to switch up what the Autoer does manually rather than have the AI do the automatic calculations. I just hate FF13 in general. Every Final Fantasy, hell, maybe every RPG should have some kind of Auto system where it records your last manual action and does it over and over, but not completely like FF13 does (I know you have the option to manually pick your commands BUT WHY THE gently caress WOULD YOU DO THAT).
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Jul 28, 2013 17:09
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| # ? May 20, 2024 19:06 |
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I don't like my games being automated. Whats the point in playing the game if it plays it for you? If it's not an Action RPG I want to control every party member.
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Jul 28, 2013 17:11
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