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I just read the two books and really liked them. I dislike it when there is a really large cast of main characters which split up and then the story keeps jumping between them. Think wheel of time...or most fantasy books actually, so it was a pleasant surprise to read a "one man show" for a change. If anyone knows of any science fiction or fantasy series that follow this pattern let me know. But the main reason I liked it is the pure potential of the world. Rothfuss did a really good job in making the world very interesting and deep and full of possibilities without actually telling us much about it and thus keeping it mysterious. And mysterious is what fires the imagination. I loved the part where he asks his teacher in the fischery about his really old sword and the teacher basically pulls out an invisible shield barrier type device... Speculation time! What, or better yet who is behind the stone door? Who is Auri!? Is she the moon? Did anyone note the times at which they meet? Something has to be in the name. Because Kvothe has a talent for naming things. For example when he saw the horse and named him "One sock" without actually realizing it. So when he told Elodin the name he picked for Auri, Elodin invited him to join his naming class. Elodin I think knows who Auri is, understood the name Kvothe had chosen and saw potential in him because of it. I think kvothe locked his name in that chest. Like Iax locked the name of the moon in his. It explains why he can't do any of the things he did anymore. He changed his name. There is a scene where Elodin freaks out because he is afraid someone changed his name. I think he had to do it in the end to run away and hide. Suffice it to say I am really looking forward to the third book and really hope it doesn't end there.
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Jul 27, 2013 19:02
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Grogsy posted:I just read the two books and really liked them. I dislike it when there is a really large cast of main characters which split up and then the story keeps jumping between them. Think wheel of time...or most fantasy books actually, so it was a pleasant surprise to read a "one man show" for a change. If anyone knows of any science fiction or fantasy series that follow this pattern let me know. I'll basically never not recommend the Black Company; its framing structure is that it is supposedly the official chronicles being written by the company doctor, who basically uses it as a journal. It's very good. The later and lesser (though still very good) books start to hop about a bit as different characters start writing their own versions of the chronicles, because of spoilers. As for Auri, I saw that as more Elodin approving of Kvothe's decision to treat Auri like a real person. Part of that was the name, but Elodin def seems more concerned with the character of his student than their skill.
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Jul 28, 2013 07:52
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Grogsy posted:I think kvothe locked his name in that chest. Like Iax locked the name of the moon in his. It explains why he can't do any of the things he did anymore. He changed his name. Reading this I can only now picture the climax of the 3rd book is Kote finishing his story and then opening the box and going Super Saiyan as he takes his name back.
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Jul 28, 2013 15:58
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Hughlander posted:Reading this I can only now picture the climax of the 3rd book is Kote finishing his story and then opening the box and going Super Saiyan as he takes his name back. I hope so. I am a sucker for happy endings, and this books literally starts with a sad one 
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Jul 28, 2013 16:26
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the JJ posted:I'll basically never not recommend the Black Company; its framing structure is that it is supposedly the official chronicles being written by the company doctor, who basically uses it as a journal. It's very good. The later and lesser (though still very good) books start to hop about a bit as different characters start writing their own versions of the chronicles, because of spoilers. As a one-off sci-fi book, I always recommend Armor by John Steakly. Focuses on two characters and is really, really good.
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Jul 28, 2013 20:17
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uber posted:As a one-off sci-fi book, I always recommend Armor by John Steakly. Focuses on two characters and is really, really good. Guh, and Steakly died 3 years ago, I guess we'll never see the sequel to it.
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Jul 28, 2013 21:42
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I hever really understood the criticism that Kvothe is "super great at everything". He is smart, but he never thinks about the things he does. As far as I can tell, he fucks almost everything he does up from almost the beginning. First bing almost kills himself by pulling air out of his lungs Gets beaten half to death for begging in wrong neighborhood Antagonizes street gang Antagonizes head teacher who sets his tuition Almost burns library down and gets banned for a year on the first day Antagonizes rich kid with powerful family Leaves blood at crime scene Buys crossbow with gold meant for building Wrongfully accuses booky with vial of his blood Almost gets exiled/imprisoned for accusing Ameyrs steward of poisoning him Talks to Armeggedon Demon Tree, dooms future Antagonizes crazy ninja barbarian mercenary teacher Jumps out of window because Eoldin says too The list goes on and on. He's smart, but he's also a giant loving idiot.
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Jul 29, 2013 11:17
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It's a tired argument, but Kvothe is pretty much the definition of a wish-fulfillment character. The fact that he's an idiot/ had a tough life actually adds to that, as any wish fulfillment story arc has to have something to struggle against or it's flat out dull. The most egregious example is when he embarrasses a lecturer because it's almost word-for-word with the urban legend that gets passed around about the student who disproves evolution/ turns out to be Einstein. On top of that, he's so: * intelligent that he got into University without any formal education when he was a teenager. * musically gifted that he's one of the best lute players on the planet. * magically potent that he can kill people with his mind. * inventive that he can design new magic stuff that's worth an entire military's R&D budget * sexually potent that he tamed the sex goddess as a virgin * gifted at fighting that he's the only non-native in history to be taught fighting from the sex village One of those things with all of his setbacks makes a tragic hero stereotype; all of that poo poo in one character makes for wish fulfillment. The Supreme Court fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Jul 29, 2013 |
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Jul 29, 2013 12:29
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Grogsy posted:I just read the two books and really liked them. I dislike it when there is a really large cast of main characters which split up and then the story keeps jumping between them. Think wheel of time...or most fantasy books actually, so it was a pleasant surprise to read a "one man show" for a change. If anyone knows of any science fiction or fantasy series that follow this pattern let me know. Robin Hobb's first, third and fourth trilogies all follow this pattern (so that's The Farseer Trilogy, The Tawny Man Trilogy and the Solider's Son Trilogy (not sure on the name of that last one)). The second one (The Liveship Trilogy) very much doesn't and jumps about between characters quite a lot. It's not essential to read Liveships in order to understand the others, but it does give some background if you can put up with it for one Trilogy. K J Parker's Devices and Desires trilogy... might also stick to one man? I can't entirely remember if it occasionally shoots off into other characters and I don't have the books with me to check.
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Jul 29, 2013 13:18
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The Supreme Court posted:The most egregious example is when he embarrasses a lecturer because it's almost word-for-word with the urban legend that gets passed around about the student who disproves evolution/ turns out to be Einstein. The fact that the students stood up and applauded him after he taught the lecturer's class was....definitely something, that's for sure.
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Jul 29, 2013 15:52
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I was at a con where Pat claimed he was the progenitor of that famous old chain e-mail about a computer virus that gradually gets more and more absurd. It's the one a out how downloading the virus will kick your dog. He said some newspaper in Seattle interviewed him about it several years ago. So far I haven't been able to confirm the veracity.
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Jul 29, 2013 16:45
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Srice posted:The fact that the students stood up and applauded him after he taught the lecturer's class was....definitely something, that's for sure. Given that the professor he upstaged was a huge jerk that nobody liked anyway, it makes sense. If it had been a random nobody, it would have been awkward, but Rothfuss went out of his way to establish Hemme as a jackass.
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Jul 29, 2013 16:47
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Your Gay Uncle posted:I hever really understood the criticism that Kvothe is "super great at everything". He is smart, but he never thinks about the things he does. As far as I can tell, he fucks almost everything he does up from almost the beginning. Absolutely loved the part where he helps Elodin brake into "his" room because he "lost his keys" and burn some of "his" coats. How was that going to go well... Also a big thank you to all those who suggested books 
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Jul 29, 2013 20:28
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jivjov posted:Given that the professor he upstaged was a huge jerk that nobody liked anyway, it makes sense. If it had been a random nobody, it would have been awkward, but Rothfuss went out of his way to establish Hemme as a jackass. Well, yeah. However that just reinforces the idea that Kvothe is a wish-fulfillment character by giving him a convenient strawman to take down.
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Jul 29, 2013 20:54
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jivjov posted:Given that the professor he upstaged was a huge jerk that nobody liked anyway, it makes sense. If it had been a random nobody, it would have been awkward, but Rothfuss went out of his way to establish Hemme as a jackass.
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Jul 29, 2013 22:33
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I dunno, I thought it was a good way for Kvothe to adequately 'prove' to the University that he had received a bunch of basic sympathy training from Abenthy. He was literally about to sit in a class that was covering something he had already learned, and being given the opportunity to display his knowledge and "test out" of the class seems appropriate to me.
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Jul 30, 2013 00:21
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jivjov posted:I dunno, I thought it was a good way for Kvothe to adequately 'prove' to the University that he had received a bunch of basic sympathy training from Abenthy. He was literally about to sit in a class that was covering something he had already learned, and being given the opportunity to display his knowledge and "test out" of the class seems appropriate to me. There's no reason something like this would happen, except the author is telling you that no really Kvothe is SOOO smart, even though he routinely makes idiotic decisions or fails to realize simple things. It's hard to write a really smart character and Kvothe is a terrible example of one. I do like the books for other reasons that I've been pretty vocal about but I understand why the poor characterizations and nerd wish-fulfillment stuff turn people off.
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Jul 30, 2013 00:56
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Hemme gave Kvothe enough rope to hang himself with and Kvothe instead hung Hemme. I'm pretty sure that Hemme knew more about sympathy than Kvothe did; Kvothe wasn't teaching Hemme or being more knowledgeable than Hemme. He merely used the knowledge he had to avoid a social trap Hemme had laid for him. Had Hemme just said "shut up and sit down" and stuck to it, the scene wouldn't have played out as it did. Instead Hemme himself said "Oh, you're so smart? Fine, show me" expecting Kvothe to make a fool of himself. I'm really not sure what strains credulity about the scene at all.
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Jul 30, 2013 01:03
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It basically reads like Mr Glockwork's infamous wicker man post to me http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3501091#post406476117
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Jul 30, 2013 01:10
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Hemme expected Kvothe to either Sink or Swim. He didn't expect him to be a dumb rear end in a top hat. It reminds me of that Cracked article about how Ferris Beuler is a psychopath and the principal is the only one to see it. We think he's the bad guy, trying to keep our charismatic hero down out of jealousy or spite, but really he's the only one to realize there's something wrong with the kid. He's the only one to realize that this kid is dangerous. Also, I'm only 320 pages into the second book and I feel like Rothfuss is planning 35 more. If Ambrose isn't at least dead or maimed by the end of this one I'm going to be disappointed.
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Jul 30, 2013 02:08
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Srice posted:Well, yeah. However that just reinforces the idea that Kvothe is a wish-fulfillment character by giving him a convenient strawman to take down. I had always hoped that was the surest sign that he was an unreliable narrator just making up STDH.
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Jul 30, 2013 03:05
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I know Rothfuss is deliberately making Kvothe this horribly successful good-at-everything guy; he, as a writer, knows why this kind of character is bad and has talked about it in some youtube video. He knows and deliberately uses all of the various archetypal tropes; I'm just desperately hoping he is using them for a purpose in the third book, and isn't just writing under the mindset of "well, I know this is bad, but I'm surely not doing it like that." Like in the comic Scott Pilgrim; when it first came out, people (myself included) would say "hah, Scott's just such a hilarious awesome guy, I'm so like that" but this all twisted and turned so that when the final book really rubbed it in that "no, Scott's actually this rear end in a top hat who manipulates people into serving his whims" it made certain readers stop and look at the aspects of their lives they emphasized with and idealized and kind of feel like dicks for being that guy. I want Rothfuss's plan to be something like that; I want him to be deliberately making this adolescent power fantasy to really gently caress with readers who love that kind of character at the end, and I feel like all the right seeds have been planted to do this, I'm just desperately hoping I'm not grasping at straws because of how much I appreciate the author as a person. Wungus fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 03:55
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Whalley posted:I know Rothfuss is deliberately making Kvothe this horribly successful good-at-everything guy; he, as a writer, knows why this kind of character is bad and has talked about it in some youtube video. He knows and deliberately uses all of the various archetypal tropes; I'm just desperately hoping he is using them for a purpose in the third book, and isn't just writing under the mindset of "well, I know this is bad, but I'm surely not doing it like that." I think everyone wants it to end that way. But at this point, I don't know if it will redeem the second book. It was just so gratuitous. No man should have to read a book where Patrick Rothfuss creates a list of new sex terms based on faeries.
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Jul 30, 2013 06:40
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It has been mentioned several times in this thread, but it always bears repeating: Rothfuss called people who didn't like the Felurian part of WMF prudes. Incidentally, I think that's some more supporting evidence for why Kvothe probably isn't an unreliable narrator. Though to be honest I feel like the unreliable narrator angle is just hopeful thinking. I mean it certainly would retroactively make up for some of the more obnoxious parts, but much as I would like that to be the case I don't think it's gonna happen.
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Jul 30, 2013 07:10
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Srice posted:It has been mentioned several times in this thread, but it always bears repeating: Rothfuss called people who didn't like the Felurian part of WMF prudes. I can't see any way how the unreliable narrator works out. Sure he's not apparently the powerful figure the legends he's telling Chronicler make him out to be, but we see small glimpses of past ability. The bottle shattering, the sword, the vast sums of wealth and his taking on the scrael and winning. As well Bast appears to have considerable power and it seems unlikely that he would just follow a fraud around for fun. It would be a really interesting twist, but I don't think that's what's in store.
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Jul 30, 2013 08:03
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jivjov posted:I'm really not sure what strains credulity about the scene at all. That just that day, accidentally, Hemme wasn't wearing his gram. I mean don't they wear them all the time after they graduate?
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Jul 30, 2013 08:28
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Grogsy posted:That just that day, accidentally, Hemme wasn't wearing his gram. I mean don't they wear them all the time after they graduate? Well that or the fact that he's a ludicrous strawman with less depth than Snape in the first Harry Potter books, the ones aimed at 10 year olds. A girl comes in late to the class: Patrick Rothfuss posted:“Poor manners on my part. What is your name?" Yeah... I love this, because you know how despite obviously being super creepy and goony about women, Rothfuss thinks he's a feminist? And will happily write ridiculous, ridiculous lectures on his blog? That's because this is what he thinks sexism is. And Hemme and Ambrose are what he thinks bad people are like. Everyone wants the hints at him being an unreliable narrator to actually go somewhere interesting, but honestly I think he's just not a very clever or subtle thinker, who deals mainly in caricatures dressed up in purple prose.
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Jul 30, 2013 12:05
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Grogsy posted:That just that day, accidentally, Hemme wasn't wearing his gram. I mean don't they wear them all the time after they graduate? Do the arcanum guilders function as a gram?
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Jul 30, 2013 15:29
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jivjov posted:Do the arcanum guilders function as a gram? Yes, that was explicitly mentioned somewhere in the second book.
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Jul 30, 2013 15:42
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This thread has some of the most bizarre and fascinating criticism of an author/novel that I've ever read. Haters gonna hate, I suppose.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:30
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Seriously, I was just thinking of how it's an annoying circle jerk of hate against Rothfuss. Every time the thread calms down and people start discussing the plot or the world or something interesting, someone comes back in and says "hey guys I know it's been said before but remember when Rothfuss said this atrocious thing?!?!" and everyone gets whipped into frenzy again. Someone guessed that Kvothe/Kote has his name stored in the box (hence all his powers going away) and I feel stupid for not seeing that before. In retrospect, it all seems so obvious! I just hope there's some satisfying conclusion to the framing story, although it might be interesting if he still ends the story with Kote all sad and mopey in his Inn. I can't recall any book in recent memory that's managed to pull that off!
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Jul 30, 2013 18:07
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syphon posted:I just hope there's some satisfying conclusion to the framing story, although it might be interesting if he still ends the story with Kote all sad and mopey in his Inn. I can't recall any book in recent memory that's managed to pull that off! I think that "Kote never leaves the Inn and there isn't a followup book of any kind" is the least likely scenario.
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Jul 30, 2013 18:37
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syphon posted:Someone guessed that Kvothe/Kote has his name stored in the box (hence all his powers going away) and I feel stupid for not seeing that before. In retrospect, it all seems so obvious! I just hope there's some satisfying conclusion to the framing story, although it might be interesting if he still ends the story with Kote all sad and mopey in his Inn. I can't recall any book in recent memory that's managed to pull that off!
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Jul 30, 2013 19:09
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uber posted:This thread has some of the most bizarre and fascinating criticism of an author/novel that I've ever read. syphon posted:Seriously, I was just thinking of how it's an annoying circle jerk of hate against Rothfuss. Every time the thread calms down and people start discussing the plot or the world or something interesting, someone comes back in and says "hey guys I know it's been said before but remember when Rothfuss said this atrocious thing?!?!" and everyone gets whipped into frenzy again. Most of the people in here who had problems with the book have explained their criticisms though? It is by no means a case of "haters gotta hate", calling it that is rather reductive. Discussing problems with a work of fiction is a legitimate thing to do and you can always offer some counter-points to further said discussion! Nobody here has a personal vendetta against Rothfuss (or so I hope, at least). I liked the first book despite its flaws, but I was sad to see that the second book expanded on the flaws instead of fixing them. I'm hardly alone in that opinion and few people go into a book wanting to hate it. That's one of the big reasons this thread is as big as it is; a fair amount of people were disappointed. Srice fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 21:00
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Srice posted:I'm hardly alone in that opinion and few people go into a book wanting to hate it. That's one of the big reasons this thread is as big as it is; a fair amount of people were disappointed. I really want to like this book more than I do (and I do) but I have serious reservations. It's obvious how much of an unsocialized internet person Ruthfuss is.
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Jul 30, 2013 22:26
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uber posted:This thread has some of the most bizarre and fascinating criticism of an author/novel that I've ever read. syphon posted:Seriously, I was just thinking of how it's an annoying circle jerk of hate against Rothfuss. Every time the thread calms down and people start discussing the plot or the world or something interesting, someone comes back in and says "hey guys I know it's been said before but remember when Rothfuss said this atrocious thing?!?!" and everyone gets whipped into frenzy again. Just because someone doesn't unilaterally love the books doesn't mean they hate them.
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Jul 31, 2013 00:54
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Not to mention that whinging alleviates the cognitive dissonance from having lots of very desirable and very undesirable material bound up in the same doorstop.
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Jul 31, 2013 01:30
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Magnus Manfist posted:I love this, because you know how despite obviously being super creepy and goony about women, Rothfuss thinks he's a feminist? And will happily write ridiculous, ridiculous lectures on his blog? That's because this is what he thinks sexism is. And Hemme and Ambrose are what he thinks bad people are like. What's arguably worse is the scene where the magical truth serum roofies not only teach Kvothe the origins of humor, but allow him to show how it's completely against his nature to ever take part in or want to have nonconsensual sex with Fela, even though his inhibitions have been lowered to basically zero and he's also apparently incapable of reading other people's faces at the time or understanding that he's violating social norms. But he can magically determine consent because his soul is so pure! I'm probably not describing it well, but that scene skeeved the hell out of me. It was like Goon's First Awareness of Rape Culture, but from a totally self-aggrandizing and weird place.
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Jul 31, 2013 02:37
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It felt like the whole scene was set up so Kvothe could definitely NOT rape anybody. No way.
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Aug 1, 2013 00:31
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Sounds good to me...call me squeamish if you want, but having a rapist as the protagonist might sour me on a book...
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Aug 1, 2013 01:20
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