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Some Numbers posted:You say that like Diplomacy is something you should recommend to people as a first board game. I pissed someone off in Twilight Imperium by pretending to not follow through on a deal just to throw off my other neighbour, cause I didn't want him to be 100% sure what I was going to do. He did not take it well and I am happy we never play Diplomacy again, because I'm pretty sure that'd be a friendship-ruiner for the guy. The deal was that I'd evacuate a system and not attack him, so I didn't evacuate it the very next turn. I still had time to do it, but he saw that as a breach of trust 
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Jul 30, 2013 03:40
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Man I'd sure like to have your first timers!!
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Jul 30, 2013 03:51
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I know myself well enough to know that I should not ever play Diplomacy, especially not with anyone who I want to talk to again.black metal hugbox posted:In the ~6 years I've owned Game of Thrones it has been a lot of people's first game. The rules aren't complex, the gameplay is interesting, and it beats the poo poo out of boring garbage like ~Ticket to Ride~ I will accept your assertion due to lack of evidence to the contrary. Your personal anecdotal experience in your area is not board game gospel. I've had a lot more success converting people by starting them with games like Ticket than sitting them down for Twilight Imperium. The rules are complex; FFG has never made a simple board game. The gameplay is interesting, but the strategy is not obvious, even to veteran board gamers. Apparently that wasn't a problem for you, but when I'm trying to show people the world away from Monopoly, a five hour marathon of inches with little measurable gain is not the first idea that comes to mind.
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Jul 30, 2013 03:57
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The General posted:I talked to Brad from Level99 on Friday. He said "You can either have the first edition shipped, or wait for the reprint. I expect the 1st editions will become collectors items, but it's upto you. I will pay for shipping too" Did he specify if that would be an option in the survey when it goes out? Or would we have to contact him explicitly? Or did he not say?
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Jul 30, 2013 04:00
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Some Numbers posted:FFG has never made a simple board game.
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Jul 30, 2013 04:26
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echoMateria posted:How about Hey, That's My Fish!? I stand corrected. The vast majority of FFG games are overcomplicated messes though.
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Jul 30, 2013 04:33
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Some Numbers posted:I stand corrected. The vast majority of FFG games are overcomplicated messes though. I've taught Runewars and Game of Thrones in like 10 minutes tops and the games usually last around three hours. Yinz jealous of my players~
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Jul 30, 2013 05:01
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black metal hugbox posted:I've taught Runewars and Game of Thrones in like 10 minutes tops and the games usually last around three hours. Yinz jealous of my players~ Tell me more about how awesome your first time gamers are and how good you are at teaching.  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 30, 2013 05:10
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echoMateria posted:How about Hey, That's My Fish!? This, Ugg-Tect, and Cosmic Encounter are among a few games that weren't actually developed in-house by FFG (rather, they were republished by FFG, often having the rules/art/etc. redone because ???).
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Jul 30, 2013 05:10
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Some Numbers posted:Tell me more about how awesome your first time gamers are and how good you are at teaching. Tell me more about how your collection of mouthbreathers love Ticket to Ride. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 30, 2013 05:11
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I'm going through the tutorials on ios agricola now and holy hell this is a lot to take in, doubly so since its spread over multiple screens. Should i do the tutorials and then go ahead and lose a bunch to the ai or is there a more effective way to learn agricola?
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Jul 30, 2013 05:21
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black metal hugbox posted:Tell me more about how your collection of mouthbreathers love Ticket to Ride. I'm sorry that you don't like Ticket to Ride, but you finding the game boring doesn't make it a bad game. I personally find Settlers of Catan incredibly dull, but I can't discount the impact it's had or how great a gateway game it is. I've played so much Dominion that I actually can't stomach it anymore. It's still a fantastic game that created and defined a genre. Your group is special; you managed to teach a bunch of non-gamers a very complex game and their eyes didn't glaze over. Congratulations! That's a very rare occurrence and should be treated as such.
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Jul 30, 2013 05:22
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Ayn Randi posted:I'm going through the tutorials on ios agricola now and holy hell this is a lot to take in, doubly so since its spread over multiple screens. Should i do the tutorials and then go ahead and lose a bunch to the ai or is there a more effective way to learn agricola? I can't say exactly, but as with a lot of computer or iOS versions, it's easier to actually learn the game from a physical copy to really get a feel for what goes on behind the scenes. I've been enjoying the Agricola app so far and actually in my 3 offline games I can't beat computer opponents on hard, despite considering myself a relatively strong player. It handles most everything in a great way but it might be tough to go by any youtube tutorial since the actual board is a bit different from the iOS one. Maybe the Agricola episode at howtoplaypodcast.com for less of a reliance on visual explanation?
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Jul 30, 2013 05:44
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Some Numbers posted:Your group is special; you managed to teach a bunch of non-gamers a very complex game and their eyes didn't glaze over. Congratulations! That's a very rare occurrence and should be treated as such. You're arguing that your anecdotal evidence is better than his. Here's my anecdote: someone who had never played anything but Risk played 1830 with us and had a good time. People get sucked in through Arkham Horror of all things. Everybody's gateway is different. It's more important for the game to be interesting to the newbie and the group to be newbie friendly than for the game to be under some arbitrary complexity threshold. I'd be bored out of my skull teaching someone TTR or Dominion and that would sure get them engaged, right? Also I'm kind of chuckling at GoT being "very complex." 
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Jul 30, 2013 06:54
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cenotaph posted:Also I'm kind of chuckling at GoT being "very complex." Well, clearly I must not be a very good board gamer, because I had to have the rules to GoT explained to me twice before I actually figured out what was going on. Thank you for opening my eyes to the fact that the game is actually really simple.
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Jul 30, 2013 06:58
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When I tried to play Game of Thrones with a group of new friends who claimed to be "board gamers" they instantly got mad it wasn't just a GoT-skinned Risk, complained the whole time about how dice rolling was better for combat, and quit halfway through when one pretended to be ill all of a sudden. It turns out they exclusively play Risk, Arkham Horror, and Cards Against Humanity. And then, for some reason, I thought it would be a good idea to agree to play D&D with them a few months later when they said they were interested in starting a campaign...
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Jul 30, 2013 07:03
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Some Numbers posted:Well, clearly I must not be a very good board gamer, because I had to have the rules to GoT explained to me twice before I actually figured out what was going on. Sorry for bringing some levity to this conversation. Nobody is insulting your prowess. But seriously, twice isn't that much. If that's your barrier for "very complex" then what's Mage Knight or an average wargame? I hold people's hands through new games all the time and they might not even really get a grasp on what's going on by the end of the game. There's nothing wrong with that. People can enjoy an experience without needing to be an instant expert. The appeal of a new hobby is learning and exploring. Sometimes simple games aren't good for that. It occurs to me that a lot of so-called ameritrash games pull in videogame/sci-fi/fantasy nerds with their "box of cool toys" approach. Miniatures games, too. They are usually pretty complex and tons of kids play those. There's a whole section of the hobby who never played a gateway game. I didn't. edit: Also Magic is a pretty big gateway game. I'm a gamer because of CCGs when I was a kid. cenotaph fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 07:19
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I'm currently thinking about getting some new games, and wanted to get some feedback on them before I pick 'em up. My group tends to enjoy lighter games, and also tends to enjoy dice. Myself and one or two other dudes are interested and able to get into "heavier" mechanics. One guy suffers mildly from AP because he takes a long time to understand rules, and the rest get turned off by overly complex rules and card interactions. So far the most popular games we have are things like the DC deckbuilding game (people like it more than dominion for the random lineup, which helps reduce AP), Quarriors, Relic (to some degree), 7 Wonders, Chaos in the Old World, and Risk Legacy. Antagonistic games are a bit hit or miss with our group; tempers can flare. We often have between 3 and 5 people; when the group gets too large we tend to break out Cards Against Humanity and a few beers. That being said, here's what I'm currently looking into along with what impressions I've garnered. If you've got any feedback on whether you think it'll work for my group, or alternate games that are similar but might work better, please let me know. Quarriors! Quartifacts - We've been enjoying the hell out of Quarriors and the whole idea of quests that give 3-4 player games alternate places to put readied creatures so that they're not murdered repeatedly appeals to me. It also seems like it helps out the strategy of buying cheaper creatures early on since they get to go on quests. King of Tokyo - I looked into a number of top games lists to see where to start looking, and this came up quite a bit. It seems like the sort of thing my group would love, with quick mechanics, a quick game time, and a fun theme. I could see us killing time with a few games of this in a row with nobody really getting frustrated over it. Thunderstone Advance: Towers of Ruin - My group really likes deckbuilders. We play 3-5 of them on rotation, and DC deckbuilder has been our go-to game for quite a while. From what I've seen of Thunderstone, it doesn't seem to have as fiddly of card combinations as something like Dominion, and the whole leveling up aspect appeals to me. Some people in the group really don't like Dominion, but enjoy similar games like Quarriors and the Penny Arcade deckbuilder. Is there a better entry point into Thunderstone or any expansions that if we enjoy Towers that we should look into? Mage Knight Board Game - This is probably stretching it. I and the other couple of guys who like to really crunch mechanics would likely love this game. The AP guy would enjoy the game as well, but he'd take way too long to both understand the rules and play while in-game. The people who don't enjoy heavier games would like the theme here, but I'm not sure that they'd like how all of the combat is more or less a predetermined puzzle (dice combat is very popular - one guy commented about how he was upset that Quarriors didn't have you roll dice for combat!). Eclipse - I want this game and would really like to play it, but it just seems like there's too much crap to keep track of for most people in my group. I showed a review of it to the AP guy and he didn't seem all that willing to get into the game. He said he'd probably enjoy it as a computer game, but not where you have to keep track of everything on the board. Is it really all that bad to keep tabs on all the resources, or is that not as big a deal?
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Jul 30, 2013 07:23
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cenotaph posted:Sorry for bringing some levity to this conversation. Nobody is insulting your prowess. quote:But seriously, twice isn't that much. If that's your barrier for "very complex" then what's Mage Knight or an average wargame? I hold people's hands through new games all the time and they might not even really get a grasp on what's going on by the end of the game. There's nothing wrong with that. People can enjoy an experience without needing to be an instant expert. The appeal of a new hobby is learning and exploring. Sometimes simple games aren't good for that. You're right that people can have fun without totally mastering a game. However, in my experience, knowing what's going on, knowing what effect your actions have on the game and knowing how those actions can advance your gameplan and help you win - these things will seriously enhance a player's experience and make the game a lot more fun and interesting. quote:It occurs to me that a lot of so-called ameritrash games pull in videogame/sci-fi/fantasy nerds with their "box of cool toys" approach. Miniatures games, too. They are usually pretty complex and tons of kids play those. There's a whole section of the hobby who never played a gateway game. I didn't. quote:edit: Also Magic is a pretty big gateway game. I'm a gamer because of CCGs when I was a kid.
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Jul 30, 2013 07:31
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Dirk the Average posted:I'm currently thinking about getting some new games, and wanted to get some feedback on them before I pick 'em up. My group tends to enjoy lighter games, and also tends to enjoy dice. Myself and one or two other dudes are interested and able to get into "heavier" mechanics. One guy suffers mildly from AP because he takes a long time to understand rules, and the rest get turned off by overly complex rules and card interactions. So far the most popular games we have are things like the DC deckbuilding game (people like it more than dominion for the random lineup, which helps reduce AP), Quarriors, Relic (to some degree), 7 Wonders, Chaos in the Old World, and Risk Legacy. Antagonistic games are a bit hit or miss with our group; tempers can flare. We often have between 3 and 5 people; when the group gets too large we tend to break out Cards Against Humanity and a few beers. My group is 3 friends and my wife. I would say I'm the one who prefers the heaviest weight games. One friend is usually in up to medium-heavy, and the rest are light or medium fans. Quarriors - I haven't played Quartifacts. The expansions have been hit miss for me. Rise of the Demons was "meh", while Quarmageddon offered some much needed diversity on the high end. I would just read the rules online and see if the new cards appeal to you. You already know you like the base game. King of Tokyo - I bought this because it's a Garfield Game with the hope that my wife would like it (She tends not to like games that are much heavier than 7 Wonders or Small World), but my gaming group really took to this one. The theme works really well with the play, and it's actually a lot of fun. We often play a few rounds in between other games. I would also recommend the expansion, it adds a little more character to the game by differentiating the monsters. I only have light experience with Thunderstone and Mage Knight so I don't want to make a suggestion there. Eclipse - I love eclipse and my group really likes it too (sans my wife who isn't into the theme and sees it as too much going on). I'm actually a little surprised that they regularly ask to play considering I've won every game but 1 since I bought it last GenCon. The game is just beautifully designed. It looks really complex, but the design is slick and you very quickly learn how play works. Now strategy obviously has a lot more depth. The guy who is usually my main competition has never managed a win and usually isn't even that close (though he seems to really like the game). My one piece of advice would be make sure you have a large play area. I have a small kitchen table and we have to bring in a card table when we play because there isn't enough room otherwise. Still, it's a really well designed and it's way easier to grasp than it looks. We have a major AP guy, and he certainly has issues here - though I wouldn't say it's any worse than any medium weight game like Small World, Innovation, or In the Year of the Dragon. Karnegal fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 08:04
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The emoticon was intended as silliness. Whatever, no harm done. I obviously agree that knowing how to affect the game state and feeling like you have agency are important but I honestly don't care if I can't get the hang of a game until the second time through. I had the damnedest time remembering what all the actions do in Dominant Species despite having taught myself games measurably more complex. I haven't played Twilight Imperium but I think the only game I would call incredibly complex is Advanced Squad Leader. I'm willing to concede my tolerance for complexity may be abnormal. I definitely feel like we're using the same definition here and we're not confusing it with depth. You can teach a six year old to play chess, after all. Magic was actually my third CCG after Star Trek (taught myself when I was 11) and Star Wars (about a year later). A few years later my first Magic deck was some green stuff I threw together but I got exposed to combo super quickly because it was the Urza's block and I bought a Scrye magazine. Actually pulled Tolarian Academy in my second pack after it was already restricted. I never really played seriously but I read a lot of theory articles over the years.
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Jul 30, 2013 08:11
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Some Numbers posted:Absolutely. Was your first game of Magic played with a combo deck? I remember my first game of Magic was with one of the starter "boosters" of 4th edition, with all the cool cards crammed in. It was at a time when my parents were concerned because of the religious hoopla at the time. I played games against someone who did use combos, and I had no idea why I got my rear end handed to me every game; in my mind, the carts with the cool art deserved a spot in my deck. There is an interesting amount of strategies and tactics throughout the line, though some is admittedly unbalanced. It's interesting to see how the game has changed over the years, the different power combos of the blocks as the tournaments age, that kind of thing. Definitely what got me into gaming and the hobby in general.
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Jul 30, 2013 08:39
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quote:Eclipse - I want this game and would really like to play it, but it just seems like there's too much crap to keep track of for most people in my group. I showed a review of it to the AP guy and he didn't seem all that willing to get into the game. He said he'd probably enjoy it as a computer game, but not where you have to keep track of everything on the board. Is it really all that bad to keep tabs on all the resources, or is that not as big a deal?
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Jul 30, 2013 09:56
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Morholt posted:No, the player mats keep track of everything in a really clever way. It's a cool game and I've had fun with it but then again AP's gonna AP. It's such an elegant design, considering how complex 4X can be as a genre. I think AP guy would poo poo himself if confronted with Throgh the Ages.
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Jul 30, 2013 10:12
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The End posted:It's such an elegant design, considering how complex 4X can be as a genre. I think AP guy would poo poo himself if confronted with Throgh the Ages.
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Jul 30, 2013 11:08
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cenotaph posted:People get sucked in through Arkham Horror of all things. Everybody's gateway is different. Why does this surprise you? In Arkham Horror, players getting sucked in through gateways is part of the game.
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Jul 30, 2013 12:33
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echoMateria posted:How about Hey, That's My Fish!? I love Hey That's My Fish. Their new edition is small enough to fit in a big pocket.
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Jul 30, 2013 14:17
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Going back a bit to learning Agricola, I think it's a tossup between learning the game with the real components (and therefore having everything in front of you) and learning against an AI (which will enforce ALL the rules, which can be challenging when learning a game). If you can't learn with the one you love, learn the one you're with, right?
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Jul 30, 2013 14:25
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Dirk the Average posted:Thunderstone Advance: Towers of Ruin - My group really likes deckbuilders. We play 3-5 of them on rotation, and DC deckbuilder has been our go-to game for quite a while. From what I've seen of Thunderstone, it doesn't seem to have as fiddly of card combinations as something like Dominion, and the whole leveling up aspect appeals to me. Some people in the group really don't like Dominion, but enjoy similar games like Quarriors and the Penny Arcade deckbuilder. Is there a better entry point into Thunderstone or any expansions that if we enjoy Towers that we should look into? Verdugo posted:I love Hey That's My Fish. Their new edition is small enough to fit in a big pocket. Ayn Randi posted:I'm going through the tutorials on ios agricola now and holy hell this is a lot to take in, doubly so since its spread over multiple screens. Should i do the tutorials and then go ahead and lose a bunch to the ai or is there a more effective way to learn agricola? echoMateria fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 14:36
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S.J. posted:So is it basically just a reskinned version of the original game? Probably? I never played the original but looking at wiki it seems pretty much like a reskin.
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Jul 30, 2013 15:09
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Well, it's been over a year now since our last top 5 board games survey, do you think it might be time for a new one? I know the thread has a lot of new sweethearts (Archipelago, Sentinels, others I'm not remembering), and a year is a long time for people to change or refine their tastes. It might also be interesting to do two separate polls, a generic "best ever" and something like "best published in the last two years." Even though one of the most wonderful things about board games is how they don't go obsolete or have to worry about backwards compatibility, I think it might be nice for people who have zoned out of the scene or know about and enjoy games like Dominion and BSG but don't necessarily keep up with releases. That, and it's Just Fun to make lists and rankings, so the more the merrier.
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Jul 30, 2013 16:18
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Countblanc posted:Well, it's been over a year now since our last top 5 board games survey, do you think it might be time for a new one? I know the thread has a lot of new sweethearts (Archipelago, Sentinels, others I'm not remembering), and a year is a long time for people to change or refine their tastes. It might also be interesting to do two separate polls, a generic "best ever" and something like "best published in the last two years." Even though one of the most wonderful things about board games is how they don't go obsolete or have to worry about backwards compatibility, I think it might be nice for people who have zoned out of the scene or know about and enjoy games like Dominion and BSG but don't necessarily keep up with releases. That, and it's Just Fun to make lists and rankings, so the more the merrier. As someone who has zoned out of the scene for the past year or two and is just starting to pay attention again, this is a fantastic idea. I haven't kept up on new releases for the past couple years or so, and now I'm trying to add more to my collection wondering what gems I may have missed. If we want to go even deeper on it we could do categories as well, e.g. Best Strategic Game, Best Thematic Game, Best Deckbuilding Game, Best Cooperative Game, Most Often Played, and so on. But definitely Best Game and Best Recent Game would be great.
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Jul 30, 2013 16:39
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Dirk the Average posted:I'm currently thinking about getting some new games, and wanted to get some feedback on them before I pick 'em up. My group tends to enjoy lighter games, and also tends to enjoy dice. Myself and one or two other dudes are interested and able to get into "heavier" mechanics. One guy suffers mildly from AP because he takes a long time to understand rules, and the rest get turned off by overly complex rules and card interactions. So far the most popular games we have are things like the DC deckbuilding game (people like it more than dominion for the random lineup, which helps reduce AP), Quarriors, Relic (to some degree), 7 Wonders, Chaos in the Old World, and Risk Legacy. Antagonistic games are a bit hit or miss with our group; tempers can flare. We often have between 3 and 5 people; when the group gets too large we tend to break out Cards Against Humanity and a few beers. I think Quartifacts is a worthwhile addition to Quarriors. It's certainly better than Qladiator, at least. If you want something light, check out Love Letter, it's awesome with 3 and 4 and works okay with 5, even though it's not designed for it. It's good in between games and it has that entertaining 'blind first-turn guess' elimination possibility. The game's only a few minutes, so it's funny rather than frustrating. Sentinels of the Multiverse would be a good fit, it's designed for 3-5 and it's full coop. People get on it about the art, but I've never found it that big of a deal. It can get a little involved with some villians that have a lot of on-turn actions, but it's not usually too bad. Plus, it's a co-op, if you gently caress up a rule it's not like it's the end of the world. I'm a huge Artipia fanboy, so take this for what it is, but Among the Stars sounds like it'd be good for your group. It only supports 4 (until the expansion later in the year), but it's a really satisfying drafting and tile-placement game. The idea is you're building a space station and your draft is the room you place. The rooms have different types and bonuses for where they are in relation to other rooms. One of my absolute favorites.
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Jul 30, 2013 16:51
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I'm super late to the party as per usual when it comes to boardgames but we just played Twilight Struggle for the first time today. Holy gently caress what an amazing game. It's Risk done right. Jonesing to play it again now.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:03
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Best Recent Games ----------------------------------- 1. Resistance: Avalon 2. 7 Wonders (with expansions) 3. King of Tokyo 4. Sentinels* 5. Castles of Burgundy Best Games ----------------------------------- 1. Resistance: Avalon 2. Dominion 3. Space Alert 4. 7 Wonders 5. Tigris & Euphrates * In a way, it's embarrassing to write Sentinels on this list. But for all its problems, we've got a lot of joy out of it.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:52
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Rahdo just posted a video here of a game called Glen More. Reminds me a lot of Carcassonne and Keyflower. Looks a lot meatier than Carcassonne, but a lot more straightforward than Keyflower. There are too many games I want now
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Jul 30, 2013 18:38
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Some Numbers posted:I don't think anyone will disagree that Twilight Imperium is an incredibly complex game? I don't think so. It's a fairly detailed game, but it does a good job of compartmentalizing and parceling out the complexity with the strategy cards. You don't have to consider all the options at all times because you can only make use of most of those options with the proper cues. The mechanics are really quite simple, and aside from activating the system you are moving to instead of the one you are moving from, quite intuitive. The scope and scale can definitely be intimidating, but there are many more complex board games, and it's got nothing on detailed war games like ASL or Battletech.
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Jul 30, 2013 19:37
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Making a list together sounds like fun. I would suggest making a lot of categories of Top 5 games like: Top five 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 players, Co-op, Traitor, Deck builder, Worker placement, 30 minus minutes, 3+ hours, etc. And see what are people's votes for each category.
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Jul 30, 2013 19:46
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How is the replay value with Forbidden Island? Looks like fun, but also seems like you can figure it out pretty quickly.
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Jul 30, 2013 19:53
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Myrmidongs posted:Rahdo just posted a video here of a game called Glen More. Reminds me a lot of Carcassonne and Keyflower. Looks a lot meatier than Carcassonne, but a lot more straightforward than Keyflower. It's not really anything like Carcassonne. Strategically, it's more like 7 Wonders, even if it looks nothing like it. You're drafting tiles to produce resources to build better tiles later, with the goal of putting together a victory point engine, much like any number of Euros. The main decisions tend to be between: (a) taking something to give you VP now, or getting more resource generation going to get more VP later, (b) taking something good for you and letting an opponent get something great for them, or taking the thing that's great for them but only okay for you, and (c) taking a larger number of probably less desirable tiles, or forgoing a turn or two in order to grab something really great. It's really only (c) which differentiates it from being a completely generic Euro. Actually, I wonder how Carcassonne would play if it used Glen More style tile drafting instead of random draws. Maybe they should have done something like that as an expansion instead of all the horrible, game-ruining stuff they've done from Princess & the Dragon onwards.
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Jul 30, 2013 20:07
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